PG for the Kings

K

KingMilz

Guest
#61
If the Knicks do if fact sign Rondo than they will have Grant as his back up in developing leaving open Langston Galloway and I would offer the Knicks Ben for him to be our back up PG and combo guard. This again is assuming as well DC's charges are hopefully not serious or if we move him and trade the pick or Rudy for a legit starter.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#62
Dunn and Baldwin are not alike at all:
Dunn is natural PG, who played that position his whole life, has a tight handle and a lot of shiftiness, so he operates by probing due to ability to change direction and gears rapidly. He's not particularly effective at P&R due to inability to pull-up coming off a screen, so everyone just goes under, as he really struggles to shoot on balance in those situations. Dunn has no problem pulling up, when he's already facing the basket, makes a move towards the rim and, if, anticipating, defender tries to shut the lane and give up a bit of space, Dunn can rise and shoot. He likes to create for others, not particularly adept at moving off the ball, though he sometimes use cuts well, so you're drafting Dunn to be your #1-2 offensive option (in terms of touches, not necessarily amount of shots) as you really need him on the ball, so a team will have to at least give him keys to the second unit right from the start.
Baldwin played SG in HS and was recruited as such. But midway through his freshman year coaching stuff noticed, that their new SG is a better playmaker than the nominal PG. Baldwin got control of the team for less than half of his sophomore season, so he's still combo-guard-ish, doesn't have enough experience, instincts, though the fact, that he caught up with Dunn's assist rate after given more control by Conference play this year, is pretty telling. Baldwin seems to be almost always on balance and too upright. It's the second reason after lacking handles, why he seems to lack burst and shiftiness, as you can't change direction quickly in that stance. But it also allows Baldwin to make big steps: if you watch Baldwin's workout video, he makes from corner 3pt line to the basket in 2 steps. That would be his weapon: seeing an opening and covering 15-18 feet, before anyone can react. That actually is Westbrook-like, though at slower speed, of course, so it's not just Baldwin's "full head of speed one man" fastbreaks, that make him look like Russ. Maintaining balance during movement also makes Baldwin a big threat coming off a screen as he can instantly pull up. When Baldwin has to navigate the paint and move side-to-side, situation rapidly deteriorates as he struggles to keep the balance on his shot and doesn't have floater game, which would be a natural answer for him, but here we come back to the fact, that he just didn't have this problem before due to not playing PG, so Baldwin just didn't have the need to develop floater earlier, and there's no time to practice skills during a season. Baldwin is better suited starting his career as next to another playmaking guard and move closer to full-time PG as he masters different parts of PG play.
If Rondo is re-signed I think Baldwin and Curry would make for a great PG rotation. You'd have the playmaker with shooting woes, the pesky defender who can knock it down from outside and a very long combo guard who can become a great defender in time, is a good shooter and athlete and who lacks that spark to be a real star but would have a high floor and enough potential to become pretty good in time.

Dunn is a star PG. By that I mean his game is built for him to be a cornerstone, not an ancillary player. He'll either be a stud or he'll struggle. There's not a lot of in between for him because of the nature of his game. I think it's much more likely that he's a star but that's how I see him. I actually think Baldwin has less of a chance of being a bust but almost no chance of being a star.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#63
Dunn and Baldwin are not alike at all:
Dunn is natural PG, who played that position his whole life, has a tight handle and a lot of shiftiness, so he operates by probing due to ability to change direction and gears rapidly. He's not particularly effective at P&R due to inability to pull-up coming off a screen, so everyone just goes under, as he really struggles to shoot on balance in those situations. Dunn has no problem pulling up, when he's already facing the basket, makes a move towards the rim and, if, anticipating, defender tries to shut the lane and give up a bit of space, Dunn can rise and shoot. He likes to create for others, not particularly adept at moving off the ball, though he sometimes use cuts well, so you're drafting Dunn to be your #1-2 offensive option (in terms of touches, not necessarily amount of shots) as you really need him on the ball, so a team will have to at least give him keys to the second unit right from the start.
Baldwin played SG in HS and was recruited as such. But midway through his freshman year coaching stuff noticed, that their new SG is a better playmaker than the nominal PG. Baldwin got control of the team for less than half of his sophomore season, so he's still combo-guard-ish, doesn't have enough experience, instincts, though the fact, that he caught up with Dunn's assist rate after given more control by Conference play this year, is pretty telling. Baldwin seems to be almost always on balance and too upright. It's the second reason after lacking handles, why he seems to lack burst and shiftiness, as you can't change direction quickly in that stance. But it also allows Baldwin to make big steps: if you watch Baldwin's workout video, he makes from corner 3pt line to the basket in 2 steps. That would be his weapon: seeing an opening and covering 15-18 feet, before anyone can react. That actually is Westbrook-like, though at slower speed, of course, so it's not just Baldwin's "full head of speed one man" fastbreaks, that make him look like Russ. Maintaining balance during movement also makes Baldwin a big threat coming off a screen as he can instantly pull up. When Baldwin has to navigate the paint and move side-to-side, situation rapidly deteriorates as he struggles to keep the balance on his shot and doesn't have floater game, which would be a natural answer for him, but here we come back to the fact, that he just didn't have this problem before due to not playing PG, so Baldwin just didn't have the need to develop floater earlier, and there's no time to practice skills during a season. Baldwin is better suited starting his career as next to another playmaking guard and move closer to full-time PG as he masters different parts of PG play.
Pretty accurate description of Baldwin, and Dunn in regards to the pick and roll. Dunn runs the pick and roll perfectly. His problem is that he can't make his defender pay for going under the pick. However, Dunn's shot isn't broken, it just needs some tweeks here and there. Once in the NBA where he can work on his game every day, I don't see why he won't improve in that area. Where Baldwin is very different from Dunn is in the paint area. Where Dunn can change direction and speeds, Baldwin struggles. Once again, I don't see why he can't improve in that area with hard work. Dunn is by far the more finished product, and as I've said before, it wouldn't surprise me if the ends up being the best player out of this draft. If he does indeed fall to us at eight, he would almost be as big a steal as Cousins was at five.
 
#64
Cory Joseph was in clipper mini camp today. He could be a realistic option.

NEITHER pg we had last year played ANY 'd' Collison would help and lose his man (constantly) leavi g wide open 3s all day long. Im glad when we have a new pg rotation like p. Beverly/ c. Jospeph/ curry

Joseph
C. Lee
Gay
Ryno
Cuz
 
#65
Be nice to have a really good PG defender on the Kings. Someone who could dog Curry, CP3 and Westbrook. IMO the two biggest areas the Kings need to improve is perimeter defense and 3 point shooting.
 
#66
So Lin opted out of his contract and we are one of the very few teams, who he could possibly start for.
I'm not the biggest Lin fan, but he is 6'3 and would give us a PG, who wouldn't be instantly overwhelmed when forced to switch a pick&roll.
After Conley he may be the best fit for us available in FA at the PG position.
 
#67
Lin has 1 almost elite skill - driving to the basket, so paint will be too small to squeeze all three of Boogie, Rudy and Lin in, so Rudy being gone is a must in that situation. Still not a fan at all of Love idea, but Lin-Love screen action would be just as strong as Love-Rubio screening was in Minnesota, and a viable alternative to produce quality offense, when Boogie sits.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#68
There has been some talk of SA pursuing Mike Conley. That would make Tony Parker available. I wouldn't suck to have him in a Kings uniform.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#71
There has been some talk of SA pursuing Mike Conley. That would make Tony Parker available. I wouldn't suck to have him in a Kings uniform.
You really think the Spurs would dump Tony Parker? It's kinda not how they treat their stars.

In addition, if the Spurs were willing to part with him it would only be because he isn't the Tony Parker he once was, which is what funky was saying.

I want us to build with younger players, not continue to grab guys at the end of their careers.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#72
Yeah, didnt know he was quite that old and the Spurs treat their guys right .....all good points but I disagree that Rondo and Collison are better, even now towards the end of his career.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#73
Yeah, didnt know he was quite that old and the Spurs treat their guys right .....all good points but I disagree that Rondo and Collison are better, even now towards the end of his career.
I just think you're tilting at windmills. We aren't going to get Tony Parker.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#75
Well, thanks for clarifying that for me.
I'm just saying what I believe. Do you honestly think he'd come to Sacramento? I don't see the Spurs letting him go and, if they do, I don't see any carrot Vlade could dangle in front of him to make it work.

I guess my real frustration is that some people (not necessarily you) always seem to think just because we want a player he'll do whatever it takes to come here. We as long-suffering Kings fans should know that just doesn't happen. :)
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#76
I'm just saying what I believe. Do you honestly think he'd come to Sacramento? I don't see the Spurs letting him go and, if they do, I don't see any carrot Vlade could dangle in front of him to make it work.

I guess my real frustration is that some people (not necessarily you) always seem to think just because we want a player he'll do whatever it takes to come here. We as long-suffering Kings fans should know that just doesn't happen. :)
Considering that in the recent past a couple of players that the Kings made offers to, ended up accepting lessor offers from other teams, which should tell us everything we need to know about attracting players here.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#78
Dejounte Murry could be the mistake that's passed up.
Dejounte Murray is going to be a project player. He needs to add about 20 pounds of of muscle, minimum, and develop an outside shot. If the Kings are interested then they need to acquire a second round pick in the top half of the second round. Personally, I'm not that high on him although he shows potential to be a good defender. Right now, he'd get bullied out on the floor by most of the two guards in the NBA.
 
#79
Bazemore would be the player I would pursue in FA. Mclemore has one more season to show out and the guards we drafted likely won't be ready to play extended mins. KK is the obvious one to be shopped and I believe he has good value ideally we get a guard in exchange. That said I still give the keys to Seth unless we net a Conley for example, I think he has the talent and confidence to run the point for us.
 
#80
Jeremy Lin would be the best option at PG. He's excels in PnR and can really get to the basket. His defense is underrated because he's an average to slightly above average defender. He puts a lot of effort on that end.

He's a solid shooter too.

It makes perfect sense to bring in Lin. He still gets extremely underrated. I think he's a fringe NBA starter like Collison. I just hope chemistry meshes between him and DMC.
 
#81
Rethinking my OP at this point the best PG choices are Conley, Rondo and Collison. If only one of those guys is retained then Sergio Rodriguez, Jeremy Lin, Norris Cole, Cam Payne could be brought in as the backup. Resign Curry as the combo guard/scorer type off the bench.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#82
If we don't get Rondo or Conley, then Jeremy Lin would be my next choice. Retain Collison and sign Curry. Hope that lightning strikes twice in the second round for the Kings in that I Cousins becomes a legit rotation player.
 
#83
Rethinking my OP at this point the best PG choices are Conley, Rondo and Collison. If only one of those guys is retained then Sergio Rodriguez, Jeremy Lin, Norris Cole, Cam Payne could be brought in as the backup. Resign Curry as the combo guard/scorer type off the bench.
Lin wants to be a starter. There's nothing Kings can offer him besides starting, that a bunch of PO teams can't. And he's a mile ahead of everybody else you mentioned skill-wise. Plus he showed this season, that you can still have a good defense with a small guard next to him.
 
#84
Lin wouldn't be bad if the thought is Collison will play a prominent role next season. Collison, Lin, Curry, Cousins is solid enough. I would wait for trades though. Have a feeling at least two of Rudy, Ben, Kosta will not be here much longer. If there aren't any big trades I would bet Rondo will probably be back.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#87
How about a trade between two guards that need fresh starts?

Trade Ben Mcclemore to Utah for either SG Alec Burks or PG Trey burke?
There's absolutely no way they would do the first.

The second? I suppose is possible. But what would the point be? Burke can score a little, but generally sucks.

Seriously, in order for me to contemplate a move, I want it to be a better PG pairing than Rajon/Rondo/Darren Collison. Because talentwise at least that pairing is Top 15 and maybe even Top 10 (hard to compare to teams with one major star and a scrub backup).
 
#88
How about a trade between two guards that need fresh starts?

Trade Ben Mcclemore to Utah for either SG Alec Burks or PG Trey burke?
Based on the Jazz's roster it is possible one of their PGs could be available and adding McLemore to their SG rotation could be a good move for them.

PG: Hill / Exum / Burke /Neto / Mack
SG: Hood / Burks

In his rookie year Burke showed flashes that he could be a decent PG, but for him to slowly lose his starting position and be moved to a bench role on a borderline play off team, either they are misjudging his talent, or they have realised he is a bench player. From what bits I've seen he is probably more on the Darren Collison level at best (ie useful start, but not much more), than a future all star. I guess it helps our PG position, but I'd rather keep McLemore, unless we can package him for a true upgrade at PG.
 
#89
The more and more I think about this, I think the Kings are going to do one of 3 things at PG:

1. Sign Rondo for another 1 year deal, possibly a 1 and 1 with the 2nd year being a mutual option
2. Stick with Collison as the Starting PG, match offers on Seth Curry as backup PG and slot Cousins as 3PG
3. Trade for a PG solution (Rubio, Bledsoe, etc.)

I think the likely hood here goes 2, 3, 1. If we go with Collison and Curry we will be lurking for a PG deal in a trade. I don't really see any other options at this point.
 
#90
Curry is going to be the interesting one. Was that last game against the Suns (I think?) just a bad game or did he get exposed? It wasn't that his shooting was bad because anyone can have a bad shooting night. It was the fact that they were trapping him, ala Jimmer, and he wasn't able to handle it at all. If we resign him, he's either going to be a major key to our success or a big part of the reason why we can't seem to get to .500. There's a lot of unknowns with your two backup PG's being Curry and Cousins but at some point you have to take the chance. The safe thing would be to get a guy of the Norris Cole variety to be your backup but he's already peaked and on his way down while a guy like Curry still has a lot of potential.