What should Vlade do at Trade Deadline???
- Thread starter ockingsfan
- Start date
You keep beating that drum, but it doesn't seem like anybody else is dancing to it. He's an excellent perimeter defender (NBA.com has him as -9.9 on 3P% - his opponents typically shoot 35.1% from three, but when he defends them they shoot 25.2%!!!) and he's shooting 35.4% from three himself, this despite hitting a big slump in January. 44% of his shots are on the catch-and-shoot, and he gets off 63% of his shots while holding the ball for 2 seconds or less, and he doesn't pound the rock. He's a pretty nice fit for our team, all things considered. If you ever watched him at Summer League, you would have seen him pop out as a man among boys - really impressive athleticism, shooting, and yes, ball-handling too. He's never going to be a world-class passer, but that's not his role. Given an opportunity to play, I'm pretty confident he can hold his own - and maybe more - in an NBA rotation.
Pretty much the same phenomenon with Ben in SAC. The player that's already with the team is always the worst, can't do anything right, doesn't develop enough and so on.
I think Snell is a pretty decent player and I agree with Capt. Factorial about his Summer League performances.
But the question is, if he is better than McLemore. And I'm certainly not convinced he is (before the season started I thought Thibs was holding Snell back and he would be a candidate for a breakout season under Hoiberg. I was wrong...).
Now Snell and McLemore would be a decent SG rotation with Snell also getting some minutes at SF.
But Snell and Bellinelli still leaves us with the dilemma, that we have to chose between offense and defense. And we all know, how Karl will manage that. #
Still I wouldn't worry about Snell in that deal. Gasol is the guy I don't want on this team at all.
I think Snell is a pretty decent player and I agree with Capt. Factorial about his Summer League performances.
But the question is, if he is better than McLemore. And I'm certainly not convinced he is (before the season started I thought Thibs was holding Snell back and he would be a candidate for a breakout season under Hoiberg. I was wrong...).
Now Snell and McLemore would be a decent SG rotation with Snell also getting some minutes at SF.
But Snell and Bellinelli still leaves us with the dilemma, that we have to chose between offense and defense. And we all know, how Karl will manage that. #
Still I wouldn't worry about Snell in that deal. Gasol is the guy I don't want on this team at all.
Funny how we make excuses for other players poor performances. Poor shooting? Well he just had a slump, but look at this particular week. He shot well. The people telling us to believe that Snell is just what we need are the same ones who told us that Stauskus was going to be great because of his IQ and play making. Anderson is the right fit for our team because he is a good defender. He can't shoot, but that's ok, because he has grit. Marco shooting and playing worse than Ben in Ben's rookie year? That's ok, because he came from a championship team. Shump can't shoot, but that's ok, because he's such a good defender it doesn't matter. All of a sudden, spacing the floor doesn't matter anymore. How convenient.
And every time another team wants to dump their players or let them go in free agency, we think that we've somehow found a great player and the other team made a mistake. Not enough people ask the most important question. Why did that team let this player go? The answer is simple. He's not as good as we wish.
This whole thing about bringing in a wing defender is hilarious too. First of all, every team wants one of those, just like every team wants a JJ Reddick or Kyle Korver shooting 50% from 3. There are only a handful of lock down defenders in the league. Just like there are just a handful of players that are capable of giving you 40 points on any given night. The majority of good defenders reside on good defense TEAMS. Defense is highly dependent on team play. This is why it's so hard to find a good individual defensive measuring stick. Blow a defensive assignment, and the whole defense falls apart. Take a wing defender and put him in the paint, and all of a sudden you make it extremely difficult for him to guard that three point line. Have a pg who gets beat down the middle time and time again, and now you interior defense looks worse when they have to come out and stop the ball.
I'm not easily fooled into thinking one poor player who is not wanted by another team is going to make us a playoff contender. We don't have the assets to trade for a difference maker. We keep trading those assets away for peanuts. Every time a trade deadline comes up for the past couple of years, our phone lines light up with teams asking for our draft picks, and too many of us here think that somehow that doesn't matter. Cap space is almost irrelevant for a team that can't attract that top free agent. And don't think that a really good free agent isn't going to look at 10th place team and not look at their ability to get better through trade or draft. This fan base is so beat up right now that we're wishing for players to be good instead of paying attention to the facts.
And every time another team wants to dump their players or let them go in free agency, we think that we've somehow found a great player and the other team made a mistake. Not enough people ask the most important question. Why did that team let this player go? The answer is simple. He's not as good as we wish.
This whole thing about bringing in a wing defender is hilarious too. First of all, every team wants one of those, just like every team wants a JJ Reddick or Kyle Korver shooting 50% from 3. There are only a handful of lock down defenders in the league. Just like there are just a handful of players that are capable of giving you 40 points on any given night. The majority of good defenders reside on good defense TEAMS. Defense is highly dependent on team play. This is why it's so hard to find a good individual defensive measuring stick. Blow a defensive assignment, and the whole defense falls apart. Take a wing defender and put him in the paint, and all of a sudden you make it extremely difficult for him to guard that three point line. Have a pg who gets beat down the middle time and time again, and now you interior defense looks worse when they have to come out and stop the ball.
I'm not easily fooled into thinking one poor player who is not wanted by another team is going to make us a playoff contender. We don't have the assets to trade for a difference maker. We keep trading those assets away for peanuts. Every time a trade deadline comes up for the past couple of years, our phone lines light up with teams asking for our draft picks, and too many of us here think that somehow that doesn't matter. Cap space is almost irrelevant for a team that can't attract that top free agent. And don't think that a really good free agent isn't going to look at 10th place team and not look at their ability to get better through trade or draft. This fan base is so beat up right now that we're wishing for players to be good instead of paying attention to the facts.
I didn't quote you Capt. because my rant really wasn't about you in particular. There is just this rolling tide of belief that anyone that isn't Ben is automatically better than Ben. I don't get that sense from you. I got the sense you had been paying attention to Snell outside of just the Ben comparison.
Doesn't change the fact that Chicago would rather have Ben. Cleveland would rather have Ben than Shump. We are not objective about our own players. Sometimes we need to pay attention to that outside view.
Doesn't change the fact that Chicago would rather have Ben. Cleveland would rather have Ben than Shump. We are not objective about our own players. Sometimes we need to pay attention to that outside view.
1. Koufos for Gibson
2. Gay & McLemore for Teague
3. Collison, Casspi, & 1st rounder for Ariza & McDaniels
4. Belinelli for highly protected future 2nd rounder
5. Let Rondo, Dukan, & Moreland walk
6. Sign Bazemore to 16 mil a year (15 mil in the 1st year)
7. Sign C. Lee to 12 mil a year (11 mil in the 1st year)
8. Sign J. Clarkson to 13 mil a year (12 mil in the 1st year)
9. Sign Aldrich to MLE
10. Sign James Jones to minimum
11. Sign Jason Smith to minimum
12. Hire Thibs
PG - Teague (30 min)/Clarkson (18 imin)/Curry
SG - Lee (28 min)/Bazemore (10 min)/Clarkson (10 min)/McDaniels
SF - Ariza (30 min)/Bazemore (18 min)/Anderson/Jones
PF - Gibson (30 min)/Cauley-Stein (18 min)/Acy
C - Cousins (36 min)/Cauley-Stein (12 min)/Aldrich/Smith
Cousins - 36 min
Teague - 30 min
Ariza - 30 min
Gibson - 30 min
Cauley-Stein 30 min
Clarkson - 28 min
Lee - 28 min
Bazemore - 28 min
2. Gay & McLemore for Teague
3. Collison, Casspi, & 1st rounder for Ariza & McDaniels
4. Belinelli for highly protected future 2nd rounder
5. Let Rondo, Dukan, & Moreland walk
6. Sign Bazemore to 16 mil a year (15 mil in the 1st year)
7. Sign C. Lee to 12 mil a year (11 mil in the 1st year)
8. Sign J. Clarkson to 13 mil a year (12 mil in the 1st year)
9. Sign Aldrich to MLE
10. Sign James Jones to minimum
11. Sign Jason Smith to minimum
12. Hire Thibs
PG - Teague (30 min)/Clarkson (18 imin)/Curry
SG - Lee (28 min)/Bazemore (10 min)/Clarkson (10 min)/McDaniels
SF - Ariza (30 min)/Bazemore (18 min)/Anderson/Jones
PF - Gibson (30 min)/Cauley-Stein (18 min)/Acy
C - Cousins (36 min)/Cauley-Stein (12 min)/Aldrich/Smith
Cousins - 36 min
Teague - 30 min
Ariza - 30 min
Gibson - 30 min
Cauley-Stein 30 min
Clarkson - 28 min
Lee - 28 min
Bazemore - 28 min
Well, twslam07, you completely lost me at 2 and 3...
Getting Teague as starter PG instead of Rondo?
Getting Ariza intead of Casspi? (No, wait - instead of Casspi & Gay together??)
You are off in so many ways, IMHO, that you got to be joking...
Let me show you why:
First, since we know that our #1 problem is on D, specifically defending 3-pointers - why would you downgrade so steeply on this??
Here's the ordered list of our best defenders against 3pt shots this year (Measured by their impact on the 3pt% of the opponent player they were guarding, compared to that specific player's overall season % from deep! So nice to have those accurate Tracking-D stats...).
As you can see - Omri is our best in this field, with Rudy & Rondo in 2nd & 3rd:
Getting Teague as starter PG instead of Rondo?
Getting Ariza intead of Casspi? (No, wait - instead of Casspi & Gay together??)
You are off in so many ways, IMHO, that you got to be joking...
Let me show you why:
First, since we know that our #1 problem is on D, specifically defending 3-pointers - why would you downgrade so steeply on this??
Here's the ordered list of our best defenders against 3pt shots this year (Measured by their impact on the 3pt% of the opponent player they were guarding, compared to that specific player's overall season % from deep! So nice to have those accurate Tracking-D stats...).
As you can see - Omri is our best in this field, with Rudy & Rondo in 2nd & 3rd:
Last edited:
Speaking of Casspi vs Ariza -
Ariza will cost you 2.5 times more money, for a lesser production in almost any possible measure (this year, at least)!
See below, per 36 minutes:
Yes, you may take Ariza for his better (but mediocre) FT%, but that's about it...
(The assist count of any King is affected by Rondo's presence, but you can add that too...)
It is much deeper than just traditional stats. See their compared effect in advanced stats:
How about some D effect? (see lower part of Misc. chart below)
Ariza will cost you 2.5 times more money, for a lesser production in almost any possible measure (this year, at least)!
See below, per 36 minutes:
Yes, you may take Ariza for his better (but mediocre) FT%, but that's about it...
(The assist count of any King is affected by Rondo's presence, but you can add that too...)
It is much deeper than just traditional stats. See their compared effect in advanced stats:
How about some D effect? (see lower part of Misc. chart below)
Last edited:
Note that Omri is ranked 13th among all NBA SFs in Defensive RPM
(He was actually ranked 3rd recently, behind only Kawhi and Lebron, but he dropped a bit down the list)
Ariza's ranking? He's #50, behind all of our SFs, including Quincy (#27) and Rudy (#40)...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5
(He was actually ranked 3rd recently, behind only Kawhi and Lebron, but he dropped a bit down the list)
Ariza's ranking? He's #50, behind all of our SFs, including Quincy (#27) and Rudy (#40)...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5
Me? Hell no.
The league's satistics are suggesting that!
Rondo is 24th among PGs in Defensive RPM. Teague is 57th...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1
Casspi is 13th among SFs. Ariza is 50th...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5
The league's satistics are suggesting that!
Rondo is 24th among PGs in Defensive RPM. Teague is 57th...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1
Casspi is 13th among SFs. Ariza is 50th...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5
Last edited:
Really, is that the gold standard? How many fans on this forum think that Cousins should go? How many fans on this forum think that Gay is worthless and should be traded. How many fans thought that IT should go? How many fans thought that Tyreke was the problem with the team? The Capt was right in his post. If you get a chance to watch Snell up close and personal, instead of reading what others may think, you might have an entirely different opinion of him.
It's all water under the bridge at this point, but it may come up again this summer, or prior to the draft. Lest people forget, once your out of the playoffs, you can make trades with other teams out of the playoffs prior to the draft. I'm not a huge fan of trading McLemore for Snell, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if it happened. Snell is an excellent athlete and is far more capable of swinging to the SF position than McLemore. If I had my druthers, I'd like to keep Ben and add Snell. Probably not possible without giving up Gay, and I'm not sure I want to do that.
It's all water under the bridge at this point, but it may come up again this summer, or prior to the draft. Lest people forget, once your out of the playoffs, you can make trades with other teams out of the playoffs prior to the draft. I'm not a huge fan of trading McLemore for Snell, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if it happened. Snell is an excellent athlete and is far more capable of swinging to the SF position than McLemore. If I had my druthers, I'd like to keep Ben and add Snell. Probably not possible without giving up Gay, and I'm not sure I want to do that.
Me? Hell no.
The league's satistics are suggesting that!
Rondo is 24th among PGs in Defensive RPM. Teague is 57th...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1
Casspi is 13th among SFs. Ariza is 50th...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5
The league's satistics are suggesting that!
Rondo is 24th among PGs in Defensive RPM. Teague is 57th...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1
Casspi is 13th among SFs. Ariza is 50th...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5
Last night, Rondo had one of his better defensive games. Maybe someone finally beat into his head that he has a man to guard. In the last game before the all star break, I spent the entire game focused on Rondo, and he virtually guarded no one in that game. I like Rondo, but his biggest weakness right now is his defense. Nice to see that one of our best defenders got only 15 minutes last night. Way to go Karl. Willie blocks two shots and scores a few points, so I better get him out of the game. Gotta get Rondo and Collison on the floor together or we'll lose this game.
The idea is about fit. Do you believe Teague is a better fit with Cousins than Rondo is with Cousins? It's up for debate. If Rondo can continue to knock down threes at this rate, I think I would rather have Rondo. If Rondo can hit threes and play defense like he did last night, I know I would rather have Rondo.
If you're going to play a non-shooter next to Cousins in Cauley-Stein, having 3pt shooters at PG, SG, & SF is very important for a dominant big like Cousins. Rondo has never been a good shooter up until now. Has he finally figured out his shot? Maybe, but Teague is a much more proven shooter who we know we can rely on to knock down shots year-in, year-out. In addition, Rondo is more of a catch and shoot player (who has a slower release) whereas Teague can pull up off the dribble and around screens. This would make a pick and roll game between Cousins and Teague more difficult to guard than a Cousins and Rondo pick and roll.
Teague also has been a better defender than Rondo over the past couple of seasons. Showing me opponents 3pt% isn't going to convince me otherwise (especially when you're showing it for PGs). You mention our 3pt defense and that usually starts with the PG. Allowing penetration and forcing our team to collapse (thus leaving open 3s) is a big problem. Having a quicker guard who does a better job at staying in front of his man would help out with that. If we're going to have good defenders at SG, SF, PF, & C, I can live with Rondo's defense, but if our team is going to move forward with average defenders like McLemore & Gay in the lineup, our upside as a team is going to be capped.
You mentioned would I rather have a distributor or a scorer when talking about Teague & Rondo. I would reply that you can't put Teague into one category. He's a better scorer, shooter, & defender than Rondo. Rondo is a better passer, game manager, & rebounder. If your other starters next to Cousins are Lee, Ariza, & Gibson, you need to have a secondary scorer out there to help relieve the pressure. If you have Teague, Gay, & Cousins, you might run into problems. Again, it's about balance and fit.
As for the Casspi vs. Ariza debate, I'm surprised that you're seriously trying to say that Casspi is a better defender than Ariza. I mean really? Ariza has been consistently one of the better perimeter defenders in the league. The last game against Indiana, we had Casspi defending Paul George (Gay was sitting out of this game) and he was getting lit up. He had no chance at stopping him. Did Casspi remain in the game considering he was our best defensive option? No. We ended up putting a 6'6" SG (Anderson) on the 6'9" Paul George to try and slow him down instead. Are you going to sit there and say that at least any team in the NBA...ANY TEAM...would have benched Ariza in favor of James D-League Anderson to try and slow down George? Good luck with that.
As for the salaries, yes, Casspi is on a great deal and gives us a lot of production which makes him a valuable player & trade asset. However, I don't see him as a starter on a contending team. His defense, decision making, and turnovers make him an unattractive starting option (love him off the bench though). In my mind, if a player is not a star/franchise player, they need to be a good defender to help maximize the potential of your starting lineup. Casspi doesn't fit that mold and Ariza does. Besides, Ariza's contract is very good as well and it's one year longer than Casspi's meaning that we will have more cap space to work with in the following season as Casspi will likely make more than $7.4 mil in 2017.
Literally, everyone is a good defender on the roster I put together, and everyone (except Cauley-Stein) is a good shooter. Cousins & Teague are the scorers in the starting unit with Lee, Ariza, & Gibson able to punish collapsing defenses with their shooting. Then you have Clarkson & Bazemore to give you a scoring punch off the bench. You can never have enough defense & shooting especially around a big like Cousins and that's exactly what the roster I made gives us.
If you're going to play a non-shooter next to Cousins in Cauley-Stein, having 3pt shooters at PG, SG, & SF is very important for a dominant big like Cousins. Rondo has never been a good shooter up until now. Has he finally figured out his shot? Maybe, but Teague is a much more proven shooter who we know we can rely on to knock down shots year-in, year-out. In addition, Rondo is more of a catch and shoot player (who has a slower release) whereas Teague can pull up off the dribble and around screens. This would make a pick and roll game between Cousins and Teague more difficult to guard than a Cousins and Rondo pick and roll.
Teague also has been a better defender than Rondo over the past couple of seasons. Showing me opponents 3pt% isn't going to convince me otherwise (especially when you're showing it for PGs). You mention our 3pt defense and that usually starts with the PG. Allowing penetration and forcing our team to collapse (thus leaving open 3s) is a big problem. Having a quicker guard who does a better job at staying in front of his man would help out with that. If we're going to have good defenders at SG, SF, PF, & C, I can live with Rondo's defense, but if our team is going to move forward with average defenders like McLemore & Gay in the lineup, our upside as a team is going to be capped.
You mentioned would I rather have a distributor or a scorer when talking about Teague & Rondo. I would reply that you can't put Teague into one category. He's a better scorer, shooter, & defender than Rondo. Rondo is a better passer, game manager, & rebounder. If your other starters next to Cousins are Lee, Ariza, & Gibson, you need to have a secondary scorer out there to help relieve the pressure. If you have Teague, Gay, & Cousins, you might run into problems. Again, it's about balance and fit.
As for the Casspi vs. Ariza debate, I'm surprised that you're seriously trying to say that Casspi is a better defender than Ariza. I mean really? Ariza has been consistently one of the better perimeter defenders in the league. The last game against Indiana, we had Casspi defending Paul George (Gay was sitting out of this game) and he was getting lit up. He had no chance at stopping him. Did Casspi remain in the game considering he was our best defensive option? No. We ended up putting a 6'6" SG (Anderson) on the 6'9" Paul George to try and slow him down instead. Are you going to sit there and say that at least any team in the NBA...ANY TEAM...would have benched Ariza in favor of James D-League Anderson to try and slow down George? Good luck with that.
As for the salaries, yes, Casspi is on a great deal and gives us a lot of production which makes him a valuable player & trade asset. However, I don't see him as a starter on a contending team. His defense, decision making, and turnovers make him an unattractive starting option (love him off the bench though). In my mind, if a player is not a star/franchise player, they need to be a good defender to help maximize the potential of your starting lineup. Casspi doesn't fit that mold and Ariza does. Besides, Ariza's contract is very good as well and it's one year longer than Casspi's meaning that we will have more cap space to work with in the following season as Casspi will likely make more than $7.4 mil in 2017.
Literally, everyone is a good defender on the roster I put together, and everyone (except Cauley-Stein) is a good shooter. Cousins & Teague are the scorers in the starting unit with Lee, Ariza, & Gibson able to punish collapsing defenses with their shooting. Then you have Clarkson & Bazemore to give you a scoring punch off the bench. You can never have enough defense & shooting especially around a big like Cousins and that's exactly what the roster I made gives us.
He got beat down the court one time that resulted in a basket by Faried. It was on a play where Willie got stuck under the basket and Faried leaked out for an easy basket. If Karl pulled him for that, then he should pull Cousins, Koufos, Gay, Belinelli, Etc. for all the times they're late getting back. To Willie's credit, he seems to take it in stride and looks at the big picture. I can't wait for Karl to get on a plane and get the hell out of Dodge.
Me? Hell no.
The league's satistics are suggesting that!
Rondo is 24th among PGs in Defensive RPM. Teague is 57th...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1
Casspi is 13th among SFs. Ariza is 50th...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5
The league's satistics are suggesting that!
Rondo is 24th among PGs in Defensive RPM. Teague is 57th...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1
Casspi is 13th among SFs. Ariza is 50th...
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5