ESPN says Kings have decided to KEEP George Karl
- Thread starter kingjatt
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Sometimes I think you arrived here just to waste my time by setting up perfect opportunities. So, all the ways your argument is flawed, enumerated, with explanations:
PART I
First, Shaquille O'Neal is Top 10 all time player who would likely be Top 5 if he had the discipline to control his weight. There are oh, about 20 HOF centers who could not match what Shaq did. The young, perhaps including yourself, are always throwing Shaq out as if he's a threshold guy, likely because he's the only great center many of them truly remember watching if they are 25 and under. But he's not threshold, he's the peak, the top of the mountain. You can be Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and still not be as great as Shaq was. Shaq is not the standard for greatness. Shaq is the standard for have a chance at GOATness.
PART IV
Second, you wonder why people lionize Michael Malone? Michael Malone was the only big man coach Cousins ever had. The only one who knew what to do with a great center. There used to be more of those guys around. The Riley coaching tree in particular gave Kareem, Ewing, Mourning, Yao, Dwight, now Drummond etc. guys who understood what great big men are, and focused on building teams around them.
And here is the thing about your primitive complaint about Cuz's FG%. When DeMarcus Cousins is coached like a big man, used like a big man, by a bi man coach, just like all of the old great bigs had coaches doing, DeMarcus Cousins' FG% suddenly looks just like all the other HOF bigs.
Cousins FG% under Michael Malone:
86 gms 717-1437 .499 FG%
Patrick Ewing Career: .504
Tim Duncan Career: .506
Moses Malone Career: .495
You coach Cuz like a big man, you get big man numbers. You coach Cuz or ANY big man the way our dipcrap franchise has insisted on doing it, you do not. If you think Alonzo Mourning or Patrick Ewing are going to be shooting .500 when they start each possession at the 3pt line...well there is no helping you. Its usage. You can make anybody inefficient if you are a crap coach and use them wrong.
PART III
Third, there is a thing called TS% which is a far more accurate way of measuring overall scoring efficiency than FG%. TS% takes into account not only your FG%, but how many fouls you draw/FTs you shoot, and for perimeter guys, how many threes you chuck. Much of the entire "new perimeter oriented NBA" is based around TS% principles that those extra points on threes make 42% shooting three point chuckers more efficient than 50% shooting 2pt shooters.
Cuz's TS% the last three years has been:
2013-14: .555
2014-15: .545
2015-16: .537
Hakeem Olajuwon's TS% for his career was .553, Patrick Ewing's career number was .553, Tim Duncan's career number was .551,, Kevin Garnett's career number was .546.
I assume that those guys, Top 20 All Time HOF bigs, were good enough to escape being insulted by their own fans for their terrible inefficiency. And until Karl chased Boogie out to the perimeter, he was sitting right there amongst them. Again, casual fans, or Grant listeners, struggle to see the actual numbers. Stuck on team wins, which is a TEAM stat, and FG%, which is only the tip of the efficiency iceberg. Drummond shoots 50% but is horribly inefficient because of that FT shooting. Al Jefferson was a marvelous post player, but a major problem was he was never that efficient because his post moves were all turnarounds and fallaways and he never drew fouls. Never scored those extra points.
The key of course, in case you somehow missed this, is that Boogie Cousins isn't a FG% guy. He's a FT drawing mauler, and to make up for being taken away from the hoop this year by his coach, he's also now peppering in threes. In the end he has put up points on the board just as efficiently as many of the all time greatest bigs.
PART IV
Fourth, there is a thing called per100 possessions. Per 100possessions stats are more accurate than even per 36 minute stats at telling how productive a guy is on court. Per36 minute stats take differences in number of minutes played out of the equation. Per100 possessiosn goes one further and takes pace out of the equation, so that a guy playing in a slow down slamball era isn't penalized vs. a guy playing in an open court duck and chuck era. this is particularly useful when comparing players from today with players from 30 years ago when games were played much faster.
The end result is this: over the past 3 years Cousins has put up back to back to back historic level per 100 possessions numbers. You take pace out of it, minute out of it. and Cousins already alltime great statlines become absolutely monster numbers the like of which few of even the All Timers have put together.
Cousins per 100 possessions numbers:
2013-14: 35.7pts 18.4reb 4.6ast
2014-15: 35.5pts 18.7reb 5.3ast
2015-16: 37.6pts 15.6reb 4,4ast
Compare that to the three best of Hakeem, Duncan, Ewing:
Hakeem:
1993-94: 33.7pts 14.7reb 4.4ast
1994-95: 35.8pts 13.8reb 4.6ast
1995-96: 35.6pts 14.4reb 4.7ast
Duncan:
2001-02: 33.5pts 16.7reb 4.9ast
2003-04: 32.8pts 18.3reb 4.5ast
2004-05: 32.9pts 17.9reb 4.4ast
Ewing:
1989-90: 36.2pts 13.8reb 2.8ast
1990-91: 35.1pts 14.7reb 4.0ast
1994-95: 34.0pts 15.6reb 3.8ast
Notice any huge gaps there? You shouldn't And if there are any, they are gaps in Boogie's favor. Those are some of the greatest bigs of all time. And so no, Boogie's numbers aren't artificially inflated by pace. He has, for three years now, been as productive as the greatest bigs in NBA history.
And now for the embarrassing part: you, and a fair number of people who's made the same mistake, haven't noticed. That's no badge of honor. At best it means you don't know what you are watching. At worst it means you are intentionally unfair.
PART V
Finally a subtle note that should be made more often: Boogie Cousins might be putting up the numbers he does in the single most hostile environment ANY HOF center has ever had to do it in. And I don't just mean the idiot franchise and all its instability. I mean rules changes.
Except for the past prime years of the Shaq/Duncan duo, all of history's centers benefitted from the famous "Illegal Defense" rule that was not finaly abolished until 2003(?) (forget the exact year). And that rule made it very hard to double team players, and impossible to double them without the ball, or sink back into a zone. Basically all the great centers putting up great numbers from the years past? They did the bulk of their work against 1 on 1 coverage. Those were the rules. Boogie has never had that advantage. Once Boogie got great, he has spent his life being doubled, zoned, swarmed, doubled without the ball etc. etc. Combined with his unprecedented ball handling abilities, in order to keep on putting up the numbers he does with the rules now working against him compared to how they worked for the centers of old, Boogie has an argument for being as offensively talented as any center has ever been. Shaq was enormous. Kareem had his one unstoppable shot. Wilt was bigger and more athletic than everyone of his age. Hakeem's Dream Shake is legendary. But they were all catching the ball in one post, against single coverage, and shooting over it/through it. Change the rule back and let Cousins play 1 on 1 against everybody and he would break the league.
PART I
First, Shaquille O'Neal is Top 10 all time player who would likely be Top 5 if he had the discipline to control his weight. There are oh, about 20 HOF centers who could not match what Shaq did. The young, perhaps including yourself, are always throwing Shaq out as if he's a threshold guy, likely because he's the only great center many of them truly remember watching if they are 25 and under. But he's not threshold, he's the peak, the top of the mountain. You can be Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and still not be as great as Shaq was. Shaq is not the standard for greatness. Shaq is the standard for have a chance at GOATness.
PART IV
Second, you wonder why people lionize Michael Malone? Michael Malone was the only big man coach Cousins ever had. The only one who knew what to do with a great center. There used to be more of those guys around. The Riley coaching tree in particular gave Kareem, Ewing, Mourning, Yao, Dwight, now Drummond etc. guys who understood what great big men are, and focused on building teams around them.
And here is the thing about your primitive complaint about Cuz's FG%. When DeMarcus Cousins is coached like a big man, used like a big man, by a bi man coach, just like all of the old great bigs had coaches doing, DeMarcus Cousins' FG% suddenly looks just like all the other HOF bigs.
Cousins FG% under Michael Malone:
86 gms 717-1437 .499 FG%
Patrick Ewing Career: .504
Tim Duncan Career: .506
Moses Malone Career: .495
You coach Cuz like a big man, you get big man numbers. You coach Cuz or ANY big man the way our dipcrap franchise has insisted on doing it, you do not. If you think Alonzo Mourning or Patrick Ewing are going to be shooting .500 when they start each possession at the 3pt line...well there is no helping you. Its usage. You can make anybody inefficient if you are a crap coach and use them wrong.
PART III
Third, there is a thing called TS% which is a far more accurate way of measuring overall scoring efficiency than FG%. TS% takes into account not only your FG%, but how many fouls you draw/FTs you shoot, and for perimeter guys, how many threes you chuck. Much of the entire "new perimeter oriented NBA" is based around TS% principles that those extra points on threes make 42% shooting three point chuckers more efficient than 50% shooting 2pt shooters.
Cuz's TS% the last three years has been:
2013-14: .555
2014-15: .545
2015-16: .537
Hakeem Olajuwon's TS% for his career was .553, Patrick Ewing's career number was .553, Tim Duncan's career number was .551,, Kevin Garnett's career number was .546.
I assume that those guys, Top 20 All Time HOF bigs, were good enough to escape being insulted by their own fans for their terrible inefficiency. And until Karl chased Boogie out to the perimeter, he was sitting right there amongst them. Again, casual fans, or Grant listeners, struggle to see the actual numbers. Stuck on team wins, which is a TEAM stat, and FG%, which is only the tip of the efficiency iceberg. Drummond shoots 50% but is horribly inefficient because of that FT shooting. Al Jefferson was a marvelous post player, but a major problem was he was never that efficient because his post moves were all turnarounds and fallaways and he never drew fouls. Never scored those extra points.
The key of course, in case you somehow missed this, is that Boogie Cousins isn't a FG% guy. He's a FT drawing mauler, and to make up for being taken away from the hoop this year by his coach, he's also now peppering in threes. In the end he has put up points on the board just as efficiently as many of the all time greatest bigs.
PART IV
Fourth, there is a thing called per100 possessions. Per 100possessions stats are more accurate than even per 36 minute stats at telling how productive a guy is on court. Per36 minute stats take differences in number of minutes played out of the equation. Per100 possessiosn goes one further and takes pace out of the equation, so that a guy playing in a slow down slamball era isn't penalized vs. a guy playing in an open court duck and chuck era. this is particularly useful when comparing players from today with players from 30 years ago when games were played much faster.
The end result is this: over the past 3 years Cousins has put up back to back to back historic level per 100 possessions numbers. You take pace out of it, minute out of it. and Cousins already alltime great statlines become absolutely monster numbers the like of which few of even the All Timers have put together.
Cousins per 100 possessions numbers:
2013-14: 35.7pts 18.4reb 4.6ast
2014-15: 35.5pts 18.7reb 5.3ast
2015-16: 37.6pts 15.6reb 4,4ast
Compare that to the three best of Hakeem, Duncan, Ewing:
Hakeem:
1993-94: 33.7pts 14.7reb 4.4ast
1994-95: 35.8pts 13.8reb 4.6ast
1995-96: 35.6pts 14.4reb 4.7ast
Duncan:
2001-02: 33.5pts 16.7reb 4.9ast
2003-04: 32.8pts 18.3reb 4.5ast
2004-05: 32.9pts 17.9reb 4.4ast
Ewing:
1989-90: 36.2pts 13.8reb 2.8ast
1990-91: 35.1pts 14.7reb 4.0ast
1994-95: 34.0pts 15.6reb 3.8ast
Notice any huge gaps there? You shouldn't And if there are any, they are gaps in Boogie's favor. Those are some of the greatest bigs of all time. And so no, Boogie's numbers aren't artificially inflated by pace. He has, for three years now, been as productive as the greatest bigs in NBA history.
And now for the embarrassing part: you, and a fair number of people who's made the same mistake, haven't noticed. That's no badge of honor. At best it means you don't know what you are watching. At worst it means you are intentionally unfair.
PART V
Finally a subtle note that should be made more often: Boogie Cousins might be putting up the numbers he does in the single most hostile environment ANY HOF center has ever had to do it in. And I don't just mean the idiot franchise and all its instability. I mean rules changes.
Except for the past prime years of the Shaq/Duncan duo, all of history's centers benefitted from the famous "Illegal Defense" rule that was not finaly abolished until 2003(?) (forget the exact year). And that rule made it very hard to double team players, and impossible to double them without the ball, or sink back into a zone. Basically all the great centers putting up great numbers from the years past? They did the bulk of their work against 1 on 1 coverage. Those were the rules. Boogie has never had that advantage. Once Boogie got great, he has spent his life being doubled, zoned, swarmed, doubled without the ball etc. etc. Combined with his unprecedented ball handling abilities, in order to keep on putting up the numbers he does with the rules now working against him compared to how they worked for the centers of old, Boogie has an argument for being as offensively talented as any center has ever been. Shaq was enormous. Kareem had his one unstoppable shot. Wilt was bigger and more athletic than everyone of his age. Hakeem's Dream Shake is legendary. But they were all catching the ball in one post, against single coverage, and shooting over it/through it. Change the rule back and let Cousins play 1 on 1 against everybody and he would break the league.
Is Brick Sam Hinkie? I wonder what its like to live entirely in the world of numbers and not reality.
Since Shaq was brought up, I'm going another direction. For somebody who didn't watch him play, just looking at the numbers, I don't think anybody understands that he had room to improve. But you said it: if he kept himself in shape, if he perhaps had less of a personality issue with Kobe, if he worked on his shot a bit more and shot a few % points better from the line, the guy would be in the discussion for GOAT. That is what is so amazing: the guy had room to improve by reasonable measures. And yet, regardless of how fantastic Cousins is, how his usage, production, win shares, whatever you want to throw out there, the difference between wins and losses with Cousins comes down to very small aspects that add up. He has room to improve, and those areas are things that most NBA players are already doing. That's the rub with him.
We shouldn't need to be discussing attitude. We shouldn't need to be discussing hustling back in transition. We shouldn't need to be discussing token defense. We shouldn't need to be discussing conflicts with authority and coaching. But we are, and that sucks.
Since Shaq was brought up, I'm going another direction. For somebody who didn't watch him play, just looking at the numbers, I don't think anybody understands that he had room to improve. But you said it: if he kept himself in shape, if he perhaps had less of a personality issue with Kobe, if he worked on his shot a bit more and shot a few % points better from the line, the guy would be in the discussion for GOAT. That is what is so amazing: the guy had room to improve by reasonable measures. And yet, regardless of how fantastic Cousins is, how his usage, production, win shares, whatever you want to throw out there, the difference between wins and losses with Cousins comes down to very small aspects that add up. He has room to improve, and those areas are things that most NBA players are already doing. That's the rub with him.
We shouldn't need to be discussing attitude. We shouldn't need to be discussing hustling back in transition. We shouldn't need to be discussing token defense. We shouldn't need to be discussing conflicts with authority and coaching. But we are, and that sucks.
Sigh.
Almost all the guys on that list also happened to arrive on teams who, hey, look at that, had HOF teammates or coaches sitting around to greet them. Sir Charles shwos up in Philly and is greeted off the plane by Dr. J and Moses. Are you kidding me?
As I keep on posting around here, Cousins HAS elevated his team. Enormously. For years.
His curse is he is elevating crap to the level of watchability. People, even smart people, just can't get their minds around that, Even when they know it the simplistic but where are the wins? argument always creeps back. By all statistical measures Cousins wins 20 games a season for us, BY HIMSELF. 20 games! And still people get trapped by "where are the wins?"
The wins are in the dungheap we keep on calling a team. The day the non-Cuzzes quit being a dungpile is the day that oh look, its magic, Cousins is now a winner!
I might as well ask how many people think that if Kevin Durant was swapped to the Lakers before the season if the Lakers would be in the playoffs. Or Harden, or whoever. Except I'm afraid what peoples' answers might be.
Almost all the guys on that list also happened to arrive on teams who, hey, look at that, had HOF teammates or coaches sitting around to greet them. Sir Charles shwos up in Philly and is greeted off the plane by Dr. J and Moses. Are you kidding me?
As I keep on posting around here, Cousins HAS elevated his team. Enormously. For years.
His curse is he is elevating crap to the level of watchability. People, even smart people, just can't get their minds around that, Even when they know it the simplistic but where are the wins? argument always creeps back. By all statistical measures Cousins wins 20 games a season for us, BY HIMSELF. 20 games! And still people get trapped by "where are the wins?"
The wins are in the dungheap we keep on calling a team. The day the non-Cuzzes quit being a dungpile is the day that oh look, its magic, Cousins is now a winner!
I might as well ask how many people think that if Kevin Durant was swapped to the Lakers before the season if the Lakers would be in the playoffs. Or Harden, or whoever. Except I'm afraid what peoples' answers might be.
The point was that an all-time great had room to improve. Everybody keeps saying "Well Cousins does XYZ statistically", yeah, but if he is his biggest competition, his biggest limitation from reaching his potential, that is a hard pill to swallow. I can understand if there was a guy that just outmatched him every night, but he's got the talent to be so much better than he already is. I don't care what he does, I care what he can do if he took it upon himself to do what 99% of the rest of the players in this league do.
I seriously doubt people are suggesting that Cousins cannot improve. I criticize his official barking in game threads. He is far too often lost in the last play. He needs to play until the whistle blows.
However, the contention is with that being the factor holding the Kings back. It's a narrative being brought up at a really suspect time while a coach is basically checked out, chillaxing and waiting to get fired so he can take his money. If he runs ANOTHER star out of town, it doesn't matter to him. However, to you as a Kings fan, it should matter.
You can have useful criticisms of Cousins while not being somebody's useful idiot.
*Please understand useful idiot as a term rather than a personal attack.
However, the contention is with that being the factor holding the Kings back. It's a narrative being brought up at a really suspect time while a coach is basically checked out, chillaxing and waiting to get fired so he can take his money. If he runs ANOTHER star out of town, it doesn't matter to him. However, to you as a Kings fan, it should matter.
You can have useful criticisms of Cousins while not being somebody's useful idiot.
*Please understand useful idiot as a term rather than a personal attack.
True enough, and in conversation I tend to make critical evaluations of DMC, unfortunately thanks to posters with a post-rational dislike for DMC not only does every thread turn into Cousins bashing but any CONSTRUCTIVE or rational criticism just feeds the venom. Every member of the Kings org could improve at their job but once the conversation turns to which guys should not have jobs then things go sideways.
This is really going to far IMO. DMC has had good teammates in the past and present. Back in the days of having IT here I heard endlessly that he was a bad fit for DMC because IT dribbles too much and shoots too much. Turns-out, IT is actually a very good basketball player. We could really use his shooting right about now. But okay, so we go with DC as a more traditional PG, but that does not work because DC is a 2nd stringer. So hey, we bring one of the best pass-first PGs in the world in Rondo, but that does not work because we now have a HOF coach that has lost his marbles? Not to mention, we bring in Rudy Gay to help with the situation. Not an All-Star, but no dung either. Pretty good in fact. DMC played with Tyreke. Well that did not work.
These guys are not dung. Is okay to entertain the possibility that maybe DMC is difficult to play with? or coach? Not saying he is, but at least entertain the possibility?
Crap, I just realized that this thread is about George Karl.
These guys are not dung. Is okay to entertain the possibility that maybe DMC is difficult to play with? or coach? Not saying he is, but at least entertain the possibility?
Crap, I just realized that this thread is about George Karl.
I'm not so sure about that. Rondo is shooting a better percentage from the field and from the 3pt line this season than IT. So is Ben McLemore. So is DeMarcus Cousins. So is Omri Casspi. So is Seth Curry. So is Darren Collison. So is Quincy Acy. Rudy Gay is better from the field by 5.4% and worse from the 3pt line by .07%. If you want somebody who'll gladly take shots away from all of these players and make less of them on average, than IT is your man.
I don't want to be in this position of seemingly putting down DeMarcus Cousins. I think Boogie is amazingly talented. I think the idea of trading him for anything other than another top 10 player his age or younger is a foolish gamble and I think if the Kings are going to succeed it's going to be because he leads them out of the doldrums.
That said, the question isn't whether Cousins is a star player or an amazing talent. The question is whether he is an all-time great big man and transformative player.
The year before Cousins was drafted the Kings won 25 games. In Cousins' rookie year the Kings won . . .24 games.
The players on both rosters were: newly minted ROY Tyreke Evans, Omri Casspi, Jason Thompson, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Donte Green and Carl Landry who came over midseason for Kevin Martin in 2010 and was traded for Marcus Thornton in 2011.
In between the two seasons Nocioni and Hawes were traded for Dalembert.
Now, unless we want to argue that 1/2 a season of Kmart was vastly better than Marcus Thornton (MT actually had better stats for the Kings across the board between the two) or that Hawes and Nocioni would have been better for Cuz than Dally there's no reason to conclude that the talent level was vastly different - assuming of course that either the loss of Jon Brockman & Sean May or the awfulness of Pooh Jeter and Darnell Jackson made a huge difference.
So that being the case - how can we explain that the Kings drafted a transformative big man and HOF talent and proceeded to win one fewer game the next season? You can point to a guy like Kevin Durant and the Sonics losing 9 more games his rookie year but the Sonics also traded Ray Allen for Jeff Green and were clearly rebuilding. The Kings roster didn't see that kind of upheaval. And while it's unfair to criticize a guy who does so much for his team not making a big leap his rookie year, the reality is that is exactly what all-time great players do.
Cousins is a fantastic player that does things I've never seen a guy his size do and he puts up numbers that no one in a Kings jersey has. But he's also shown himself to be mentally weak and give up on his team. To bring down the morale of his teammates when they see he's been taken out of the game by some perceived slight.
There's a large continuum between "Cousins is a player who should be mentioned in the same breath as Shaq, Dream, etc" and "Cousins is a cancer who is destroying the team". There's also a difference between understanding that Cousins has been jerked around horribly, put in terrible systems by mediocre to terrible coaches and generally misused and not laying any blame at his feet for or excusing him completely from the lack of success of the team.
That said, the question isn't whether Cousins is a star player or an amazing talent. The question is whether he is an all-time great big man and transformative player.
The year before Cousins was drafted the Kings won 25 games. In Cousins' rookie year the Kings won . . .24 games.
The players on both rosters were: newly minted ROY Tyreke Evans, Omri Casspi, Jason Thompson, Beno Udrih, Francisco Garcia, Donte Green and Carl Landry who came over midseason for Kevin Martin in 2010 and was traded for Marcus Thornton in 2011.
In between the two seasons Nocioni and Hawes were traded for Dalembert.
Now, unless we want to argue that 1/2 a season of Kmart was vastly better than Marcus Thornton (MT actually had better stats for the Kings across the board between the two) or that Hawes and Nocioni would have been better for Cuz than Dally there's no reason to conclude that the talent level was vastly different - assuming of course that either the loss of Jon Brockman & Sean May or the awfulness of Pooh Jeter and Darnell Jackson made a huge difference.
So that being the case - how can we explain that the Kings drafted a transformative big man and HOF talent and proceeded to win one fewer game the next season? You can point to a guy like Kevin Durant and the Sonics losing 9 more games his rookie year but the Sonics also traded Ray Allen for Jeff Green and were clearly rebuilding. The Kings roster didn't see that kind of upheaval. And while it's unfair to criticize a guy who does so much for his team not making a big leap his rookie year, the reality is that is exactly what all-time great players do.
Cousins is a fantastic player that does things I've never seen a guy his size do and he puts up numbers that no one in a Kings jersey has. But he's also shown himself to be mentally weak and give up on his team. To bring down the morale of his teammates when they see he's been taken out of the game by some perceived slight.
There's a large continuum between "Cousins is a player who should be mentioned in the same breath as Shaq, Dream, etc" and "Cousins is a cancer who is destroying the team". There's also a difference between understanding that Cousins has been jerked around horribly, put in terrible systems by mediocre to terrible coaches and generally misused and not laying any blame at his feet for or excusing him completely from the lack of success of the team.
I have no idea of what the significance of a 19yr old immature DeMarcus Cousins not coming in and transforming a Kings roster in the midst of Maloofery and with its star suffering from plantar faciitis has to do with his career.
At 19, and presumably more mature, Tim Duncan and Patrick Ewing were busy studying for Basket Weaving Finals and trying to score with that hot little hunny at the frat party.
At 19, and presumably more mature, Tim Duncan and Patrick Ewing were busy studying for Basket Weaving Finals and trying to score with that hot little hunny at the frat party.
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I'm not talking about transforming. I'm talking about any improvement at all. They lost one more game with a rookie Cousins than the season before without him.
And, and at 18 a straight out of HS LeBron James led essentially the same Cavs roster to 35 wins after they won 17 games the year before.
The obvious response is that LeBron is a once in a generation player which I fully accept.
But it underscores the point I've been making all along - DMC is an amazing player but regardless of what his stats say, he's not on par with Olajuwon, O'Neal etc as a legendary big.
Boogie CAN be the best player and superstar on a contending team, but it requires better coaching, a more complimentary roster AND for Cousins to shore up his own weaknesses.
And, and at 18 a straight out of HS LeBron James led essentially the same Cavs roster to 35 wins after they won 17 games the year before.
The obvious response is that LeBron is a once in a generation player which I fully accept.
But it underscores the point I've been making all along - DMC is an amazing player but regardless of what his stats say, he's not on par with Olajuwon, O'Neal etc as a legendary big.
Boogie CAN be the best player and superstar on a contending team, but it requires better coaching, a more complimentary roster AND for Cousins to shore up his own weaknesses.
You're way too smart of guy to make this mistake, so I'll jog you're temporarily-disabled memory:
In Demarcus' rookie season, he was treated about as badly by the officials as I've ever witnessed in over 35 years of watching the NBA.
If he even touched players, he was called for the foul.
It is absolutely impossible to make an impact in the NBA when two completely different sets of rules are being enforced, between him and his opponents.
In Demarcus' rookie season, he was treated about as badly by the officials as I've ever witnessed in over 35 years of watching the NBA.
If he even touched players, he was called for the foul.
It is absolutely impossible to make an impact in the NBA when two completely different sets of rules are being enforced, between him and his opponents.
Cousins' per minute fouls actually dropped more between his second and third year than between his first and second but you'll get no argument from me that Boogie was a foul machine his rookie year. By the numbers he was almost more like bigs that come over from Europe and have to adjust to a much less physical NBA game. And yes, he got some surprising foul calls. But how much of that was compounded by how he interacted (and continues to interact) with the refs? When I was coaching HS basketball I'd often have to tell a kid when he came to the bench to stop arguing calls or being so demonstrative or whiny towards the refs. It doesn't change the previous call and while it shouldn't, it just makes them more likely to whistle you for another foul.
But back to the main issue. DeMarcus is a great player. A guy I'm happy is on the Kings. But I would argue that he's not a transcendent, transformative player. Because if he was there wouldn't be an excuse at every turn for why he hasn't managed to help his team make the playoffs. He's had poor rosters, poor coaches and absolute chaos in terms of ownership all of which suck and aren't in any way his fault. But he also hasn't put his team on his back and won enough games to be an 8th seed in six seasons.
I hate the way George Karl coaches this team, but this season he has the PG he always wanted, the wingman he wanted to stay, the athletic shotblocker we all saw that he needed next to him, the legit backup center the team needs when he goes out, bench scoring from Collison and Casspi etc.
Can we really say that DeMarcus Cousins is a legitimate superstar but it's Karl and Karl alone that is keeping this team from being able to win half their games?
But back to the main issue. DeMarcus is a great player. A guy I'm happy is on the Kings. But I would argue that he's not a transcendent, transformative player. Because if he was there wouldn't be an excuse at every turn for why he hasn't managed to help his team make the playoffs. He's had poor rosters, poor coaches and absolute chaos in terms of ownership all of which suck and aren't in any way his fault. But he also hasn't put his team on his back and won enough games to be an 8th seed in six seasons.
I hate the way George Karl coaches this team, but this season he has the PG he always wanted, the wingman he wanted to stay, the athletic shotblocker we all saw that he needed next to him, the legit backup center the team needs when he goes out, bench scoring from Collison and Casspi etc.
Can we really say that DeMarcus Cousins is a legitimate superstar but it's Karl and Karl alone that is keeping this team from being able to win half their games?
You may be right, in part it depends in part on a clear agreed upon definition of the term Superstar. If a superstar must clearly make his teammates better, then DMC has to be able to make that net step. On the other hand there is a HUGE gap between bad coaching and what I would call malpractice. Karl is not just failing to motivate the team or implement effective defensive schemes. He is exposing weaknesses and suppressing strengths.
I was cautiously optimistic about Whalberg's dribble drive offense, because having seen it in action I knew it was effective at creating open looks, but I had never seen how it worked with dominant big men, and now I have no problem saying it is a terrible fit not just for DMC but Rudy, and to a lesser degree KK all play better close to the hoop, so what ever offensive success they are having it is DESPITE the DD not because of it. It seems to me we have players that are perfect for pick and roll situations yet how often do we run one of the fundamental plays in the NBA? And offense is not even where our team struggles!
Karl's defensive schemes such that they are consist of a zone defense with numerous switches that literately invite offenses to set up in the corners then draw attention to make sure that the shooters are always left open, and it has been working so well that at this point every team in the league plays the exact same way against us setting scoring records every night. Even a coach with no imagination at all would at least go to man to man coverage for stretches at this point. The same thing with switching on the pick and roll. The predictable senseless switches are actually being used by offenses to create the mismatch THEY want, over and over and over. Again bad coach who could think of nothing else would simply stop the switches and tell the players to go over screens and live with the result. Just one more example is the defensive boards. If you are not able to stop shooters, even a room temperature coach will try to compensate by dominating the boards, but I am not seeing guys crashing the boards and our team rebounding in anemic.
I doubt if any of these observations are news to much of anyone on this board least of all Funky K, I bring them up to point out that while Boogie may have the talent around him to succeed, perhaps even guys he COULD make better but shackled with Karl, the DD and mind numbing defensive schemes, Boogie and the rest of the guys are having to work to achieve mediocrity.
I was cautiously optimistic about Whalberg's dribble drive offense, because having seen it in action I knew it was effective at creating open looks, but I had never seen how it worked with dominant big men, and now I have no problem saying it is a terrible fit not just for DMC but Rudy, and to a lesser degree KK all play better close to the hoop, so what ever offensive success they are having it is DESPITE the DD not because of it. It seems to me we have players that are perfect for pick and roll situations yet how often do we run one of the fundamental plays in the NBA? And offense is not even where our team struggles!
Karl's defensive schemes such that they are consist of a zone defense with numerous switches that literately invite offenses to set up in the corners then draw attention to make sure that the shooters are always left open, and it has been working so well that at this point every team in the league plays the exact same way against us setting scoring records every night. Even a coach with no imagination at all would at least go to man to man coverage for stretches at this point. The same thing with switching on the pick and roll. The predictable senseless switches are actually being used by offenses to create the mismatch THEY want, over and over and over. Again bad coach who could think of nothing else would simply stop the switches and tell the players to go over screens and live with the result. Just one more example is the defensive boards. If you are not able to stop shooters, even a room temperature coach will try to compensate by dominating the boards, but I am not seeing guys crashing the boards and our team rebounding in anemic.
I doubt if any of these observations are news to much of anyone on this board least of all Funky K, I bring them up to point out that while Boogie may have the talent around him to succeed, perhaps even guys he COULD make better but shackled with Karl, the DD and mind numbing defensive schemes, Boogie and the rest of the guys are having to work to achieve mediocrity.
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27-11 is awesome and is a rare stat combo only achieved by a a few. But is there a reason you never seem to include FG% when comparing Cousins to the all time great C's. When I think dominant big men of course I look at the stats, namely pts/rebounds/blocks....but I also heavily factor in teams W/L record and the big mans FG%. We already know your thoughts on the teams win/loss and how that is in no part Cousins fault. But Generally though it's just assumed that a high usage, dominant big man is going to have a FG% roughly around .500 . That is not the case with cousins. His FG% is abysmal compared to other dominant big men (both in terms of 1st 5 years, career, retired players, current players etc)
No, you're right and I agree with you. I assumed the Karl, being a legitimately great NBA coach, would adapt his offense to play to his best player's strengths. He hasn't. And the defense is worse than I expected and I expected mediocrity. It reminds me of why I was so upset with Mike Malone's firing. Malone wasn't a revelation as a coach. His offensive sets were basic, his plays out of timeouts weren't great, his substitution patterns needed work and despite the focus on defense the team struggled to defend the three. But he did have the players buying in and playing hard for him and he had Cousin's trust. More than all of that though, he was playing to the strength of his roster.
So when D'Alessandro comes out and says that the reason he fired Malone was because they needed a faster paced, higher scoring offense I was dumbfounded. And it made me realize that the coach that was just fired understood the roster far more than the guy who put the roster together. And likewise I continue to be frustrated that a coach as smart and talented as Karl thinks that the players he has are best served trying to outrun and outscore the rest of the NBA. Karl is doing a major disservice to Cousins but also to Rondo and Gay and probably Ben McLemore as well since he seems better served by a more structured system.
But still, Cousins is putting up the highest scoring numbers of his career. If 27 & 11 are the magic numbers that, in and of themselves, earn him a place among Olajuwon, Karl Malone and Shaq then we have to acknowledge that this season, under Karl is the only time he's reached that threshold.
Again, I think Boogie is an amazing player. But if the only argument for while he is a HOF big man and ranks with some of the greatest to ever to play is that he's putting up 27 & 11 it seems really strange to say the reason he can't carry this team (on paper the most talented he's ever been surrounded by) is that the coach is killing his game while only reaching that 27 & 11 threshold under that same coach.
I suppose what it boils down to is that I've grown tired of DeMarcus Cousins being absolved of any and all blame for why the Kings aren't better than they are. He IS the best player. He IS likely the only reason that the Kings aren't fighting the Lakers to be the worst team in the West. But the burden of being a superstar IS that you need to do far more than what is asked of anybody else on the team. And he can. But right now he's an amazing player putting up amazing stats on a vastly underachieving team.
So when D'Alessandro comes out and says that the reason he fired Malone was because they needed a faster paced, higher scoring offense I was dumbfounded. And it made me realize that the coach that was just fired understood the roster far more than the guy who put the roster together. And likewise I continue to be frustrated that a coach as smart and talented as Karl thinks that the players he has are best served trying to outrun and outscore the rest of the NBA. Karl is doing a major disservice to Cousins but also to Rondo and Gay and probably Ben McLemore as well since he seems better served by a more structured system.
But still, Cousins is putting up the highest scoring numbers of his career. If 27 & 11 are the magic numbers that, in and of themselves, earn him a place among Olajuwon, Karl Malone and Shaq then we have to acknowledge that this season, under Karl is the only time he's reached that threshold.
Again, I think Boogie is an amazing player. But if the only argument for while he is a HOF big man and ranks with some of the greatest to ever to play is that he's putting up 27 & 11 it seems really strange to say the reason he can't carry this team (on paper the most talented he's ever been surrounded by) is that the coach is killing his game while only reaching that 27 & 11 threshold under that same coach.
I suppose what it boils down to is that I've grown tired of DeMarcus Cousins being absolved of any and all blame for why the Kings aren't better than they are. He IS the best player. He IS likely the only reason that the Kings aren't fighting the Lakers to be the worst team in the West. But the burden of being a superstar IS that you need to do far more than what is asked of anybody else on the team. And he can. But right now he's an amazing player putting up amazing stats on a vastly underachieving team.
That's not really the point. The Kings had the SAME talent. In fact, I'd argue that trading Hawes & Nocioni for Dalembert gave them MORE talent than the year before. And yet adding DeMarcus Cousins to the team had the net effect of 1 less win.
Is it fair to expect a rookie, even one who goes on to be an all-star to be a difference maker in his first season? Nope. But that's been my whole point here. Cousins is the best offensive big man in the league and has molded himself into one of the better interior defenders too. But the truly legendary players make an instant impact from day 1.
Again, I think Cousins is as good as Chris Webber or close to it now and will likely be the far better player when all is said and done. But Chris Webber wasn't on the level of O'Neal and Olajuwon. He's a borderline hall of famer who could be the best player on a very good team but who wasn't the guy who could carry a team all on his own. That's where Boogie is now. But he could be more. So I do bristle at the notion that Cousins' foibles should be ignored or glossed over because he's the best player and putting up HOF numbers. Both of those things are true, but it's also true that his teams haven't made the playoffs in five years and likely won't this year either.
If you want to argue that DeMarcus Cousins is an all-time great then he needs to be a great enough force to lift his team to the next level. And he can only do that when he gets mentally tougher, becomes a better leader and stops giving up on plays when he's frustrated.
Is it fair to expect a rookie, even one who goes on to be an all-star to be a difference maker in his first season? Nope. But that's been my whole point here. Cousins is the best offensive big man in the league and has molded himself into one of the better interior defenders too. But the truly legendary players make an instant impact from day 1.
Again, I think Cousins is as good as Chris Webber or close to it now and will likely be the far better player when all is said and done. But Chris Webber wasn't on the level of O'Neal and Olajuwon. He's a borderline hall of famer who could be the best player on a very good team but who wasn't the guy who could carry a team all on his own. That's where Boogie is now. But he could be more. So I do bristle at the notion that Cousins' foibles should be ignored or glossed over because he's the best player and putting up HOF numbers. Both of those things are true, but it's also true that his teams haven't made the playoffs in five years and likely won't this year either.
If you want to argue that DeMarcus Cousins is an all-time great then he needs to be a great enough force to lift his team to the next level. And he can only do that when he gets mentally tougher, becomes a better leader and stops giving up on plays when he's frustrated.
I have a hard time criticizing Cuz in regards to elevating a team when he's not playing under the same set of circumstances as most players. The organization is crippling to his career.
It's like saying a student learning at a school that is falling down around them, over crowded classrooms, out of date text books, teachers who are bottom tier and schoolmates that are less than stellar is not smart because he didn't get into Stanford like the kid from the private school.
The deck bis stacked against Cousins. He knows it and he still hasn't demanded a trade.
It's like saying a student learning at a school that is falling down around them, over crowded classrooms, out of date text books, teachers who are bottom tier and schoolmates that are less than stellar is not smart because he didn't get into Stanford like the kid from the private school.
The deck bis stacked against Cousins. He knows it and he still hasn't demanded a trade.
And KF.com is like an old married couple, fighting the same argument for the last 25 years, neither spouse ever giving an inch, making each other miserable but never taking steps to come together in the middle because they're afraid of the void that would dominate their relationship if they dared to stop bickering.
Here's a mental exercise for all those who think Cousins isn't built for this league or just isn't very good or his attitude is bringing us down...
Imagine Cousins on the Spurs.
Now imagine how they would use him. Ok, maybe still shoot a few threes... but you can bet your bottom dollar they are pounding it down low and surrounding him with shooters. Popovich is salivating right now. You know it. And you know Cousins would be happy as a clam.
I'll always root for the Kings because I live here and I'm from here. But if Cousins actually goes to a team like the Spurs, Grizz, Bulls, just any team that appreciates fundamental basketball, they will become my adopted team, because of the respect I have for Cousins after all he's had to endure here.
Imagine Cousins on the Spurs.
Now imagine how they would use him. Ok, maybe still shoot a few threes... but you can bet your bottom dollar they are pounding it down low and surrounding him with shooters. Popovich is salivating right now. You know it. And you know Cousins would be happy as a clam.
I'll always root for the Kings because I live here and I'm from here. But if Cousins actually goes to a team like the Spurs, Grizz, Bulls, just any team that appreciates fundamental basketball, they will become my adopted team, because of the respect I have for Cousins after all he's had to endure here.
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