The not blaming Karl 100% thread.

[kingjatt]

A common line around here is we messed up big time, no one else was ever going to hire Karl!

I alot of my own opinion in this but....

Image if Vlade wasn't the Vlade we have such fond memories of and have a deep connection with, Honestly how many other teams would have given someone with zero NBA FO experience, Zero cap management experience etc. a chance to not only be GM but basically control all of Basketball Ops? How many teams would give him this power if he were let go today?

Open your eyes folks Vivek is still controlling everything. He knows bringing in any known polished powerful GM will relinquish his powers because anyone without fear of not getting a job anywhere else will not cave to his silly ideas and personnel input (Seth Curry instead of literally any wing defender).

This organization is a mess from top to bottom, I know we hate GSW but they have it right when it comes to structure and power delegation. Viveks ego still has not gotten out of the way and who knows if it ever will.

Vivek is a genius for paying all of these old beloved players to put up a front to combat any fan uprising. Hating guys and noticing there incompetence is easy when they are people like PDA,Mully,Karl etc, but doing so to guys who are heroes in Sacramento is hard if not impossible.

P.S Karl still needs to be fired.

 

[Jerichoholic]

A common line around here is we messed up big time, no one else was ever going to hire Karl!

I alot of my own opinion in this but....

Image if Vlade wasn't the Vlade we have such fond memories of and have a deep connection with, Honestly how many other teams would have given someone with zero NBA FO experience, Zero cap management experience etc. a chance to not only be GM but basically control all of Basketball Ops? How many teams would give him this power if he were let go today?

Open your eyes folks Vivek is still controlling everything. He knows bringing in any known polished powerful GM will relinquish his powers because anyone without fear of not getting a job anywhere else will not cave to his silly ideas and personnel input (Seth Curry instead of literally any wing defender).

This organization is a mess from top to bottom, I know we hate GSW but they have it right when it comes to structure and power delegation. Viveks ego still has not gotten out of the way and who knows if it ever will.

Vivek is a genius for paying all of these old beloved players to put up a front to combat any fan uprising. Hating guys and noticing there incompetence is easy when they are people like PDA,Mully,Karl etc, but doing so to guys who are heroes in Sacramento is hard if not impossible.

P.S Karl still needs to be fired.

The funny thing with building a successful organization is that there is no exact blueprint, something that works for one team may not work for another. Sometimes good culture just develops, sometimes a bad one starts and just never seems to end. Front offices do their best to add good players and remove bad ones, seems obvious enough, but then it doesn't come down to talent, it comes down to the fit. Players may be good, combinations of players may be bad. Some players can be all-stars on some teams and bench players on other teams. Bottom line, we have gone in this circle of blame for a long time now, it's the organization then it's the coach, then it's the players, and then back around again.

You mention that perhaps Divac's experience is the problem. Let's look at what he did, he got rid of Landry, Thompson, and Stauskas. As a result he was able to bring in Belinelli, Koufos, and Rondo. He drafted Cauley-Stein. He was able to convince Casspi to stay on a value deal in my opinion. He even brought in end of bench guys like Acy and Curry. Sure we had to give up some draft picks and a couple of draft pick swaps which I don't like, but overall that is a solid first year resume on paper I would say! I can't look at this and put the blame on Divac.

What about the organization? All accounts seem to show that Ranadive has been hands-off since Divac came aboard. Also you mention the Warriors organization as having good structure. Don't forget that just before last season their owner was hated by fans, booed by them. There were reports that players were angry towards him, Curry included. The handling of the Mark Jackson coaching situation was a joke. Now a short year and a half later they have a great organization. Why is this? It's because they found the right combination of players that grew together and it just worked. I guess swapping Mark Jackson for Steve Kerr was all good, although looking at Luke Walton maybe the coaching itself wasn't all that important anyway. Looking at all this I can't really blame the organization either.

Can we blame coaching? Probably some. Karl has had great success in the league, taking a team like the Nuggets that was a high effort and high energy team with limited talent to a top spot in the playoffs in a tough Western Conference at the time. However I don't think he has the fire anymore or maybe it's just that he doesn't have the patience. We thought that his calm demeanor may show that he is a more open person, willing to listen where it may actually be that he just doesn't listen at all anymore. Although we know for a fact that he had a great meeting with Cousins and Divac in Las Vegas in the offseason. We know that he had a great meeting with Cousins and Rondo earlier in the season. Seems like he is listening, it's just that nothing changes. I don't think that this roster is built for a style like Karl's and that he should do a better job of using his players' particular talents better than he does for sure, but outside of that I can only blame him so much.

In my opinion this falls on the players mostly. I said that these players don't fit Karl's style, which is true. He likes players who are passionate, high energy, and high effort. Who doesn't? What coach doesn't need that? I have read many posts about how Karl can't coach defense and we need another new coach. I have read how he hasn't prepared his team properly, they haven't practiced how to guard the pick and roll properly. Seriously? As Bobby Jackson said, players have been practicing guarding the pick and roll, getting back in transition, and guarding the 3-point line since middle school. This is correct, except one thing, he then blames the coach. How can you possibly blame the coach for this? If our players have to still take hours practicing those things then we are screwed. This has nothing to do with defensive systems, these are basics. If our players can't do these things then forget about getting a defensive minded coach who complex strategies, they will never get it. The truth is though that they do get this. Look at the second half of the Celtics game, the Kings actually tried to play defense. They gave some effort, they caused a huge number of turnovers and in the 3rd quarter I think the Celtics were only able to get one or two 3-point shots up because the perimeter was defended so well. This is our current players in a nutshell, they can play defense, they can give an effort, most of the time they just don't.

 

[ArcoKings]

^^^ Jerichoholic pretty much broke down the team's issues and nailed it especially the last paragraph. The players need to be held accountable, too. Sure, we can criticize Karl's rotations but the players are the ones who are on the court not playing defense, missing open shots, missing FTs and turning the ball over. The whole system/organization is to blame for mediocrity not just the coaching ALONE. It's been a hard eight seasons watching this team circling around the bowl for that long. It's going to take a monumental effort by everyone in the organization to turn this thing around and it will not be accomplished in a short period of time.

 

[hrdboild]

There's a nuance here that the title of this topic and many of the posters are completely ignoring. It is okay to say that a coach is not 100% at fault or even 50% at fault and still conclude that the best course of action is to fire them. With a veteran team you're really only looking for two things: (1) keep the players prepared and motivated for each game (2) utilize the players you have in an appropriate manner on the court. George Karl has failed miserably on both counts. Is it his job to teach these players how to defend? No. But we're spiraling out of control here and he's the man charged with ensuring that doesn't happen. Our players are obviously lacking in either preparation, motivation, or both. Either they've stopped listening to George Karl completely or what he's telling them isn't helping. Does it matter all that much which one is happening? If they've stopped listening than you have to make a change. If his coaching is ineffective than you have to make a change.

As for the second point, I don't think asking Darren Collison or Rajon Rondo to defend SGs for 25 minutes per game is utilizing them in an appropriate manner. And the same goes for Rudy Gay defending NBA PFs in the post or Marco Belinelli and Ben McLemore defending NBA SFs most of the fourth quarter. If we have a full-size lineup out there every game and they still suck at defense, there's not much else George Karl can do but that hasn't been the case at all this season and that's where my frustration with his coaching originated, long before this current downturn. What George Karl has done all season long is play lineups that maximize our ability to score the ball at the expense of our defense and the results speak for themselves. We're one of the best offenses in the league and one of the worst defenses. These things are not unrelated. It's been clear for 2 months that our defense is holding us back and you'd expect the coach in that situation to change his rotation in some way to get his better defenders on the floor -- especially in the fourth quarter -- and yet that hasn't happened. How much longer can we wait? If we lose another 5 straight we'll have dug ourselves a hole that's too big to come back from.

The question I have for anyone who thinks the players are the biggest problem and firing George Karl won't accomplish anything is what you suggest we do instead? You can't fire the players, not all of them anyway. Most of them have multi-year contracts. Do you have a plan for completely transforming the locker room into a team of players who play "the right way" through only free agency and trades? Young players take time to develop, veterans come in with their own ideas about how to play the game. It's easy enough to blame the players, they're the ones we see on the court for 48 minutes. But the other 29 teams in the league don't have a different breed of player than we do.

 

[Padrino]

^^^ Jerichoholic pretty much broke down the team's issues and nailed it especially the last paragraph. The players need to be held accountable, too. Sure, we can criticize Karl's rotations but the players are the ones who are on the court not playing defense, missing open shots, missing FTs and turning the ball over. The whole system/organization is to blame for mediocrity not just the coaching ALONE. It's been a hard eight seasons watching this team circling around the bowl for that long. It's going to take a monumental effort by everyone in the organization to turn this thing around and it will not be accomplished in a short period of time.

of course it's not karl's fault alone. who's even arguing that? best case scenario for the season was always that this team managed to snag the 6-8 seed in a weakened western conference. there's some talent here. the frontcourt of cousins/cauley-stein, in particular, looks like it could be a phenomenal pairing. but the roster is imperfect. it's got holes. it's got weaknesses. it's got players that need to be held accountable for those holes and weaknesses. and vlade has admitted on multiple occasions that he's not yet satisfied with the roster's construction...

winning wasn't gonna happen overnight. vlade's got more work to do. he knows it. we know it. but isn't it disconcerting that in less than a full season's time, george karl has already worn out his welcome in the locker room? isn't it disconcerting that cousins and rondo would even need to petition their head coach to adjust his style to better fit their strengths? isn't it disconcerting that the coaching staff appears unable to lead effectively, to reach this motley crew of a team?

i know that i'm embarrassed by how unprepared the kings often look at the start of many of their games. i know that i'm utterly baffled nightly by a defensive scheme that places nearly every member of the rotation out of position and in unfavorable match-ups, all the while surrendering the three point shot to a league that's more prolific than ever from beyond the arc. i know that i'm genuinely aghast every time george karl deflects on the subject of the kings' defensive failings, instead attributing those failings to a flaw in their execution of the offense. do the players need to be held accountable? sure. absolutely. but a head coach who regularly misuses his players, misjudges their abilities, and appears to care little for defense isn't exactly the guy you look to for accountability...

 

[Glenn]

There's a nuance here that the title of this topic and many of the posters are completely ignoring. It is okay to say that a coach is not 100% at fault or even 50% at fault and still conclude that the best course of action is to fire them. With a veteran team you're really only looking for two things: (1) keep the players prepared and motivated for each game (2) utilize the players you have in an appropriate manner on the court. George Karl has failed miserably on both counts. Is it his job to teach these players how to defend? No. But we're spiraling out of control here and he's the man charged with ensuring that doesn't happen. Our players are obviously lacking in either preparation, motivation, or both. Either they've stopped listening to George Karl completely or what he's telling them isn't helping. Does it matter all that much which one is happening? If they've stopped listening than you have to make a change. If his coaching is ineffective than you have to make a change.

As for the second point, I don't think asking Darren Collison or Rajon Rondo to defend SGs for 25 minutes per game is utilizing them in an appropriate manner. And the same goes for Rudy Gay defending NBA PFs in the post or Marco Belinelli and Ben McLemore defending NBA SFs most of the fourth quarter. If we have a full-size lineup out there every game and they still suck at defense, there's not much else George Karl can do but that hasn't been the case at all this season and that's where my frustration with his coaching originated, long before this current downturn. What George Karl has done all season long is play lineups that maximize our ability to score the ball at the expense of our defense and the results speak for themselves. We're one of the best offenses in the league and one of the worst defenses. These things are not unrelated. It's been clear for 2 months that our defense is holding us back and you'd expect the coach in that situation to change his rotation in some way to get his better defenders on the floor -- especially in the fourth quarter -- and yet that hasn't happened. How much longer can we wait? If we lose another 5 straight we'll have dug ourselves a hole that's too big to come back from.

The question I have for anyone who thinks the players are the biggest problem and firing George Karl won't accomplish anything is what you suggest we do instead? You can't fire the players, not all of them anyway. Most of them have multi-year contracts. Do you have a plan for completely transforming the locker room into a team of players who play "the right way" through only free agency and trades? Young players take time to develop, veterans come in with their own ideas about how to play the game. It's easy enough to blame the players, they're the ones we see on the court for 48 minutes. But the other 29 teams in the league don't have a different breed of player than we do.

Yes, I would like to see an alternative to firing Karl from those who are blaming the players. We are stuck. You can't trade a whole line up and as the team put together isn't really all that bad, it wouldn't make much sense.

I think the "let's burn Boogie at the stake" folks pick on him as trading him would have the biggest impact and the hope is that the change would be positive. I wonder what these people would do if they actually had the GM position and weren't on a forum where unpopular views are sometimes held just for the fun of aggravating people. When you are the GM, the people are real and not just names on a screen.

I don't know what coaches are available. It is difficult to pick and chose because of that. Thibs says (supposedly) that his dream job is in New York. I doubt if there are many coaches whose dream job is in Sacramento. It's reality.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I think the "let's burn Boogie at the stake" folks pick on him as trading him would have the biggest impact and the hope is that the change would be positive. I wonder what these people would do if they actually had the GM position and weren't on a forum where unpopular views are sometimes held just for the fun of aggravating people. When you are the GM, the people are real and not just names on a screen.

To be fair, the exact same thing could probably be said of the "fire Karl" contingent.

Besides, views on websites like KF.com are not necessarily consensus views. The vast majority of KF.com was anti-IT, and has been pro-Cousins and anti-Karl. There are other fan sites that were very pro-IT and seem to be at least very much less pro-Cousins and somewhat less anti-Karl. While there are certainly folks that take positions in order to aggravate people, I think a major factor is that people tend to flock towards the sites that hold similar views to their own, which can lead to very big divides via self-selection of membership/participation.

Anyhow, I think most folks here, regardless of which side they take, are sincere in their viewpoints. Both sides argue their views aggressively. But when one side greatly outnumbers the other, the sheer weight of opinion on one side tends to lend credence to its validity, so that those who aggressively argue the popular side are seen as defending the truth while those whose aggressively argue the unpopular side are seen as either stirring the pot or unintelligent (since their point of view is seen as "clearly wrong"). This doesn't mean there isn't objective right and wrong, but I think the preceding is important to keep in mind at all times when arguing on the internet.

 

[Bricklayer]

O please both rosters are terrible, Thomas didn't fit our roster....enough excuses please. You can't compare Demarcus to legit HOF big men but yet this forum does all the time while discouting every varaible. Why didnt IT fit our roster but Cousins and Gay did?

I've established the FACT that Boogie is going to the HOF too many times to have to keep on doing it because people want to deny it.

Or rather let's put it this way, NO player in NBA history has ever put up the numbers Cousins has and not made the HOF. He's not even a low HOFer. he's a potential Top 10 all time center HOFer. But there's still a chance he may have to one day do the winning part elsewhere. Certainly not so long as Vlade is here to smooth things, but I don't trust Vivek as far as I could throw him. Then again, at maybe 130-140lbs I could throw him pretty far, so maybe he holds his water this time.

BTW, this roster is not that bad at all. And it has shown that this year by beating just about everybody but the deadly duo at one time or another. Who are the #3 through #6 teams in the league? OKC, LAC, TOR, CLE? Well we've beat 3 of those 4.

There's talent. Just misused and the coach seems to have lost them. The whole discontent in fact stems from the fact there is talent on this team. If there was no talent, there would be no disappointment.

 

[Bricklayer]

And BTW, many of these same players were in the playoffs just last year, or the year before. Aside from Ben, who despite his failings isn't somehow singlehandedly making us lose, and Cousins, who has completely carried us much of the season, most of our rotation is filled up with guys who have played successfully on high level teams. Not just playoff teams, but 50 win teams, in several cases, championship teams. When you get a group of guys like that together and suddenly it does not mesh, suddenly they look clumsy, make dumb errors, can't seem to get out of their own way, the place you look is the sidelines. And its not because George Karl doesn't, or critically -- DIDN'T (past tense) -- know how to coach.

But
1) he may have proven too inflexible at this stage in his career to alter his coaching to his personnel;
2) he may have lost the team's attention, which can happen with any coach, even one who knows what he's doing, if he does not push the right buttons -- coaching is as much about people management as it is X's and O's; and
3) at his age he may not have the energy, he may in particular be using an obsolete defensive scheme, he just might have aged out just like so many formerly great coaches before. How did Lenny Wilkens look in his final years? Don Nelson? Rick Adelman? Larry Brown? DICK MOTTA? I shot a tweet to Bill Herenda the other day which said "great coaches have a born on date too." Karl may just be beyond his.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what the exact cause. The team is underachieving, in full collapse, and the postseason hopes are dying per game. The why it has not worked is academic. It hasn't. Predictable in my mind, but hey I never wanted him. But the underlying on court fact is its not working. So...you do what you have to, and you should have already done it cleanly.

 

[Blob]

According to NBA rumors Vivek wants to hire the first female head coach in Nancy Lieberman!

Sorry Corliss

Also heard from pod and anonymous scout that Channing Frye Oladipo and Fournier are available off Magic. I am not sure if Frye has any game left (at 32) but if he does I like his skill set as complement to our team (poor man's Ryan Anderson).

I am fairly convinced Koufous and Willie are duplicate players to large degree and Willie can (or will) do what Koufos can do better which makes Koufos expendable when the right deal comes along, i.e. one that can improve our perimeter. Here's a few potential trades Vlade could (should) be proposing:

Koufos and Marco for Frye and Oladipo

Ben Darren and Koufos for Frye Oladipo and Fournier

I'd like to keep Ben and unload Marco and Koufos, but if we can get both Oladipo and Fournier, Ben may have to be included. Darren is a guy with the Magic could use to complement Payton at PG who can shoot the ball.

If I am the Magic GM, Darren and Koufos are the two guys I would target in any potential trade. Marco could experience a revival there so they may take a chance on him. Not sure if the Magic have any interest in Rudy but I heard elsewhere the Magic are willing to part with Tobias Harris too.

The bottom line is there is a trade to be made between these two teams! Make it happen Vlade!

 

[Jerichoholic]

And BTW, many of these same players were in the playoffs just last year, or the year before. Aside from Ben, who despite his failings isn't somehow singlehandedly making us lose, and Cousins, who has completely carried us much of the season, most of our rotation is filled up with guys who have played successfully on high level teams. Not just playoff teams, but 50 win teams, in several cases, championship teams. When you get a group of guys like that together and suddenly it does not mesh, suddenly they look clumsy, make dumb errors, can't seem to get out of their own way, the place you look is the sidelines. And its not because George Karl doesn't, or critically -- DIDN'T (past tense) -- know how to coach.

But
1) he may have proven too inflexible at this stage in his career to alter his coaching to his personnel;
2) he may have lost the team's attention, which can happen with any coach, even one who knows what he's doing, if he does not push the right buttons -- coaching is as much about people management as it is X's and O's; and
3) at his age he may not have the energy, he may in particular be using an obsolete defensive scheme, he just might have aged out just like so many formerly great coaches before. How did Lenny Wilkens look in his final years? Don Nelson? Rick Adelman? Larry Brown? DICK MOTTA? I shot a tweet to Bill Herenda the other day which said "great coaches have a born on date too." Karl may just be beyond his.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what the exact cause. The team is underachieving, in full collapse, and the postseason hopes are dying per game. The why it has not worked is academic. It hasn't. Predictable in my mind, but hey I never wanted him. But the underlying on court fact is its not working. So...you do what you have to, and you should have already done it cleanly.

I agree with your premise that this roster has talent, it does. That's why I don't blame Divac for this, in fact I credit him for doing quite a good job in his first offseason. The main problem I see is fit, either with Cousins or with Karl, it really all comes down to what kind of team are we trying to build. The main reason things worked better with Malone than with Karl is that this team is built for a slow pace, half court game. Offensively, Rondo is one of the best creators in the half court that I've ever seen in a point guard, Gay is an isolation player whose best skills are within 10 feet of the basket, Cauley-Stein excels on offensive rebounds and put backs, and Cousins' best skills I would say are also within 10 feet of the basket. This doesn't leave a lot of room for ball movement and cutters, this is an isolation offense. Defensively, just take a look at how Rondo, Cauley-Stein, Cousins, Casspi, and Koufos do in the half court. All can be very strong defenders, getting steals, blocking shots, and taking charges, this team can generate a lot of turnovers, we've seen this. However the pace screws it up, it tires players out and these same defenders who are strong in the half court are actually very weak defending the perimeter and in transition, the very things that occur with a fast pace. If this is the style of play we want, we go with Cousins, fire Karl, and find a coach who fits this.

However if we want a team that more resembles the modern era, it's the players that are the problem, Cousins included. His offense will always be better in the low post and his defense better in the half court. If he has to run to guard the perimeter or to quickly get into position he will fail, it's just not how he plays. This team doesn't have the quickness, the shooters, or quite frankly the desire to play this way. With Cousins and Gay playing their best styles, which they should, will always clog the middle preventing fast play. If we want to resemble the Warriors then Cousins along with a lot of our players has to go.

One last thing, regardless of the style you want I am getting tired of one thing. How we keep hearing that these players have quit on their coach. That the coach doesn't inspire them enough. That they can't buy in. Enough of this! How many coaches do we have to go through? I'm not picking a side yet, but I will say this. Regardless of talent I'm giving Cousins one more coach. If it doesn't work then it's time to move on. How many coaches does a player have to go through to get the perfect one? There is no perfect coach. I would like to ask this of everyone, how many more coaches does Cousins get before you've had enough? Is there a limit?

 

[LA King Fan II]

Not sure if anyone is in the hall of fame without ever playing in a single playoff game but Cuz will be the first if he stays a King.

Dont think Cuz will ever win at Sacramento unless he gets teammates at his level or respects a coach enough to allow criticism and bring trust. I could see him succeeding for Pop, Phil Jackson, Coach K, Thibs, Doc (maybe) Kerr and thats it. Anyone else will have to have seriius nba playing cred and if they do its not likely they'll want the Kings' coaching job.

Magic got westhead fired but got a hall of fame coach and Kareem and Worthy

LeBron played with HOF wade and Riley was around when he won. I think its inevitable he goes. He may find surroundings to succeed and the Kings will move ob from this mid season "quit syndrome" that makes me regret buying the nba pavkage each year.

 

[CuzistanKing]

One last thing, regardless of the style you want I am getting tired of one thing. How we keep hearing that these players have quit on their coach. That the coach doesn't inspire them enough. That they can't buy in. Enough of this! How many coaches do we have to go through? I'm not picking a side yet, but I will say this. Regardless of talent I'm giving Cousins one more coach. If it doesn't work then it's time to move on. How many coaches does a player have to go through to get the perfect one? There is no perfect coach. I would like to ask this of everyone, how many more coaches does Cousins get before you've had enough? Is there a limit?

Heh, if I'm DeMarcus Cousins, that's exactly what I'm telling the Sacramento Kings: "I'm giving you one more coach, if you screw it up - I'm out."

I mean, nobody here is asking for a "perfect" coach, but apparently even a "competent" one is too much to ask for. I bet Vlade understands all that which is why he's taking his time with this.

 

[sdballer]

How many coaches do we have to go through? I'm not picking a side yet, but I will say this. Regardless of talent I'm giving Cousins one more coach. If it doesn't work then it's time to move on. How many coaches does a player have to go through to get the perfect one? There is no perfect coach. I would like to ask this of everyone, how many more coaches does Cousins get before you've had enough? Is there a limit?

I was once having problems with my tv service and they kept sending out morons to fix it. On a final call, the customer service rep angrily demanded to know how many times I expected them to send someone out. I let her know I would have expected one, that was qualified to do the job. Then I cancelled the service and switched to a company that doesn't suck.

For everyone that keeps bringing this up, what do the poor decisions around coaches and teammates have to do with this? Is cousins responsible for the crap he's been surrounded by? I can't look at one combination of coaches, players and systems that any star could have reasonably won with during cousins career (outside of the groundwork Malone was building).

So to answer your question, send me someone who knows what they're doing and if we still can't win, I'll sadly switch sides.

 

[Glenn]

I was once having problems with my tv service and they kept sending out morons to fix it. On a final call, the customer service rep angrily demanded to know how many times I expected them to send someone out. I let her know I would have expected one, that was qualified to do the job. Then I cancelled the service and switched to a company that doesn't suck.

For everyone that keeps bringing this up, what do the poor decisions around coaches and teammates have to do with this? Is cousins responsible for the crap he's been surrounded by? I can't look at one combination of coaches, players and systems that any star could have reasonably won with during cousins career (outside of the groundwork Malone was building).

So to answer your question, send me someone who knows what they're doing and if we still can't win, I'll sadly switch sides.

Since Adelman left, we have had 8 coaches. Only one of them acquired an NBA head coaching job after leaving the Kings and that is Malone. I am assuming this is Karl's last job.

 

[ParniValjak]

O please both rosters are terrible, Thomas didn't fit our roster....enough excuses please. You can't compare Demarcus to legit HOF big men but yet this forum does all the time while discouting every varaible. Why didnt IT fit our roster but Cousins and Gay did?

You seriously are deluded if you think that Malone EVER had a roster as good as the roster this year! You simply cannot be taken seriously if you think this is the case.

Oh and BTW, IT did have his first 20ppg season under Malone.

 

[Bricklayer]

I agree with your premise that this roster has talent, it does. That's why I don't blame Divac for this, in fact I credit him for doing quite a good job in his first offseason. The main problem I see is fit, either with Cousins or with Karl, it really all comes down to what kind of team are we trying to build. The main reason things worked better with Malone than with Karl is that this team is built for a slow pace, half court game. Offensively, Rondo is one of the best creators in the half court that I've ever seen in a point guard, Gay is an isolation player whose best skills are within 10 feet of the basket, Cauley-Stein excels on offensive rebounds and put backs, and Cousins' best skills I would say are also within 10 feet of the basket. This doesn't leave a lot of room for ball movement and cutters, this is an isolation offense. Defensively, just take a look at how Rondo, Cauley-Stein, Cousins, Casspi, and Koufos do in the half court. All can be very strong defenders, getting steals, blocking shots, and taking charges, this team can generate a lot of turnovers, we've seen this. However the pace screws it up, it tires players out and these same defenders who are strong in the half court are actually very weak defending the perimeter and in transition, the very things that occur with a fast pace. If this is the style of play we want, we go with Cousins, fire Karl, and find a coach who fits this.

However if we want a team that more resembles the modern era, it's the players that are the problem, Cousins included. His offense will always be better in the low post and his defense better in the half court. If he has to run to guard the perimeter or to quickly get into position he will fail, it's just not how he plays. This team doesn't have the quickness, the shooters, or quite frankly the desire to play this way. With Cousins and Gay playing their best styles, which they should, will always clog the middle preventing fast play. If we want to resemble the Warriors then Cousins along with a lot of our players has to go.

One last thing, regardless of the style you want I am getting tired of one thing. How we keep hearing that these players have quit on their coach. That the coach doesn't inspire them enough. That they can't buy in. Enough of this! How many coaches do we have to go through? I'm not picking a side yet, but I will say this. Regardless of talent I'm giving Cousins one more coach. If it doesn't work then it's time to move on. How many coaches does a player have to go through to get the perfect one? There is no perfect coach. I would like to ask this of everyone, how many more coaches does Cousins get before you've had enough? Is there a limit?

1) as was noted...somewhere else on here last night, we are scoring just fine. We score better than playoff bound Nuball outfits like Atlanta or Dallas. hence all this handwringing about oh, we are post players in a pussyball age! is really misplaced.

2) Defensively Cousins has had, and has continued to have to this day, one of the LARGEST defensive impacts of any center in the NBA, perhaps precisely because he's far better suited for the perimeter oriented attacks than are truly traditional guys like DeAndre. And frankly big rim protectors and defenders will never go out of style defensively. Utah's whole defense is keyed around one. Even Golden State, source of most of the smallball is taking over nonsense, keeps around two big bangers to protect that middle while they fart around with their little guys.

3) Cousins anti-coach history is highly overblown. His first two were idiots that any self respecting player would have dislodged. One fired himself, and the secodn was a dead duck as soon as new ownership came aboard. LeBron would have had them fired in a week. Neither will ever be a head coach again. And he got along swimmingly with his 3rd coach. He even tried to defend Corbin, despite Corbin being an obvious idiot. Then this one kicked things off by trying to trade him, and there were reports that Cousins may have explicitly asked management NOT to fire him early in the season. He changed his entire offensive game around trying to fit into some more dumbness. Cousins gets at least until he fires a coach who makes a lick of sense. And probably two of those. Since we only hired the one, and management fired him, not Cuz, this is a non-factor.

 

[fansinceday1]

I was once having problems with my tv service and they kept sending out morons to fix it. On a final call, the customer service rep angrily demanded to know how many times I expected them to send someone out. I let her know I would have expected one, that was qualified to do the job. Then I cancelled the service and switched to a company that doesn't suck.

For everyone that keeps bringing this up, what do the poor decisions around coaches and teammates have to do with this? Is cousins responsible for the crap he's been surrounded by? I can't look at one combination of coaches, players and systems that any star could have reasonably won with during cousins career (outside of the groundwork Malone was building).

So to answer your question, send me someone who knows what they're doing and if we still can't win, I'll sadly switch sides.

I wish we had some clappy hands emoticons or something.
What a damn good post. Short and to the point. Bravo

 

[fansinceday1]

Not sure if anyone is in the hall of fame without ever playing in a single playoff game but Cuz will be the first if he stays a King.

Dont think Cuz will ever win at Sacramento unless he gets teammates at his level or respects a coach enough to allow criticism and bring trust. I could see him succeeding for Pop, Phil Jackson, Coach K, Thibs, Doc (maybe) Kerr and thats it. Anyone else will have to have seriius nba playing cred and if they do its not likely they'll want the Kings' coaching job.

Magic got westhead fired but got a hall of fame coach and Kareem and Worthy

LeBron played with HOF wade and Riley was around when he won. I think its inevitable he goes. He may find surroundings to succeed and the Kings will move ob from this mid season "quit syndrome" that makes me regret buying the nba pavkage each year.

Im starting to be swayed in your direction. Your right, He might not ever win here.
He will win somewhere else. He'll eventually go to the hall of fame, wearing the team jersey where he started winning.
And sacramento fans will be able to say "He use to play for us. And we could just never put it together. So we traded a future hall of famer."

 

[pshn80]

2) Defensively Cousins has had, and has continued to have to this day, one of the LARGEST defensive impacts of any center in the NBA, perhaps precisely because he's far better suited for the perimeter oriented attacks than are truly traditional guys like DeAndre. And frankly big rim protectors and defenders will never go out of style defensively. Utah's whole defense is keyed around one. Even Golden State, source of most of the smallball is taking over nonsense, keeps around two big bangers to protect that middle while they fart around with their little guys.

Brick, it has been my observation this season that Cuz has been the defender you describe only on a pert time basis. At his best and at his worst he has not gotten up the court or back donwn the court on a timely basis meaning, on defense, he often isn't there to use his defensive skills. He has the running speed as evidenced occassionally by his bringing the ball up the court all he way to he basket He seldom uses that speed often because he is tired, or slow to get up off he floor, or looking at an official, or showing his utter frustration. The result I see from this is that he is a sub par defender too often. It often occurs to me that this scenario must have a less than useful impact on his teammates and may contribute in a negative way to their defensive effectiveness.

All that leads me to wonder if isn't a significant contributor to our poor defense. The coach can't very well bench his all star offensive player.

I fear hat what I have outlined above is too true but please show m I am wrong and please don't dismiss this ve out-of-hand. That won't help m.

 

[sdballer]

Brick, it has been my observation this season that Cuz has been the defender you describe only on a pert time basis. At his best and at his worst he has not gotten up the court or back donwn the court on a timely basis meaning, on defense, he often isn't there to use his defensive skills. He has the running speed as evidenced occassionally by his bringing the ball up the court all he way to he basket He seldom uses that speed often because he is tired, or slow to get up off he floor, or looking at an official, or showing his utter frustration. The result I see from this is that he is a sub par defender too often. It often occurs to me that this scenario must have a less than useful impact on his teammates and may contribute in a negative way to their defensive effectiveness.

All that leads me to wonder if isn't a significant contributor to our poor defense. The coach can't very well bench his all star offensive player.

I fear hat what I have outlined above is too true but please show m I am wrong and please don't dismiss this ve out-of-hand. That won't help m.

Then why are we performing so much worse when he isn't on the floor?

 

[White_Chocolate]

It is definitely not all on Karl, but at the same time he is in no way the solution to this team. I am not standing here saying I have a solution, but if I were to point to one thing it would be defense and chemistry. I hate to say it, but when Malone was here we had both of those things. I would love Thibs, but if I were him I would stay far away from a team whose minority owners are attempting to seize control from Vivek. I trust Vlade and no one else at this point. If he feels we need to start from square one that I will back his decision. We as Kings fans are subjective in nature in regards to players on this team, especially the big fella. If we are going to make it through this dark era of Kings basketball we are really going to have to an open and objective mind about how we progress. First things first fire Karl. Second analyze the talent we have and decide how to proceed with that talent (trades, build through draft - albeit tricky with how much we have meddled with our picks- or stand pat and continue build through FA). Third don't rush hiring a second coach. Finally breathe and give yourself some love for being such a good Kings fan.

 

[Bricklayer]

Brick, it has been my observation this season that Cuz has been the defender you describe only on a pert time basis. At his best and at his worst he has not gotten up the court or back donwn the court on a timely basis meaning, on defense, he often isn't there to use his defensive skills. He has the running speed as evidenced occassionally by his bringing the ball up the court all he way to he basket He seldom uses that speed often because he is tired, or slow to get up off he floor, or looking at an official, or showing his utter frustration. The result I see from this is that he is a sub par defender too often. It often occurs to me that this scenario must have a less than useful impact on his teammates and may contribute in a negative way to their defensive effectiveness.

All that leads me to wonder if isn't a significant contributor to our poor defense. The coach can't very well bench his all star offensive player.

I fear hat what I have outlined above is too true but please show m I am wrong and please don't dismiss this ve out-of-hand. That won't help m.

We would describe that as observation bias.

The numbers tell a different story. Humans, with their biases intact, watch for their pet play, remember only what they want to remember. Our defensive woes are perimeter based and in transition.

 

[Henkel]

Cousins, WCS and Koufos have all been good on the defensive end. Underlining just how bad the perimeter players and Karl's system have been.

 

[pshn80]

We would describe that as observation bias.

The numbers tell a different story. Humans, with their biases intact, watch for their pet play, remember only what they want to remember. Our defensive woes are perimeter based and in transition.

I think I told you it as my observation. Don't you think I've thought a lot about whether I'm based in these views? I'm sorry but your answer didn't make I for me. What tells me you are not based on his net defensive effect this season? I'm no saying you are but please cnsider I'm not biased either. Huh?

 

[ParniValjak]

I think I told you it as my observation. Don't you think I've thought a lot about whether I'm based in these views? I'm sorry but your answer didn't make I for me. What tells me you are not based on his net defensive effect this season? I'm no saying you are but please cnsider I'm not biased either. Huh?

A couple of things you are conveniently overlooking here are:
1. Pace that we are playing at is notoriously bad for players of Cousins's build. Do you think Sullinger would be able to play at this pace and still run at full pace back defensively? Do you think Shaq could do the same thing?
2. Cousins has battled ankle injuries all season long affecting his mobility and ability to run, especially when he is feeling gassed from all the pointless running up and down the court.

And despite ALL of that, he is still our best defender but hey let's all pile it on a guy that has to this point kept us withing play off distance into February for the first time in years because you know, he should be super human and do things that no one else can.

 

[pshn80]

A couple of things you are conveniently overlooking here are:
1. Pace that we are playing at is notoriously bad for players of Cousins's build. Do you think Sullinger would be able to play at this pace and still run at full pace back defensively? Do you think Shaq could do the same thing?
2. Cousins has battled ankle injuries all season long affecting his mobility and ability to run, especially when he is feeling gassed from all the pointless running up and down the court.

And despite ALL of that, he is still our best defender but hey let's all pile it on a guy that has to this point kept us withing play off distance into February for the first time in years because you know, he should be super human and do things that no one else can.

Sir, I am not piling on. The view I express is a well considered view. I'm not a "hater" or net rested in trading him. I simply speak because nothing of this nature comes up for discussion. I'm well aware of the pace issue. It does explain a possible reason why he s often late in arrival and therefore not defending. I'm aware that this problem is popularly cited as one of the Karl's many faults. Is it as simple as that? I'm not cnvnced it is.

 

[Dbeltz24]

So if we do trade DMC, what is the best possible outcome for both parties. Meaning we send DMC somewhere that has potential to win while we receive the best possible assets.

 

[Larry89]

I just don't understand what happened, we were on a 5 game winning streak, in the 8th seed and then everything just imploded.

 

[9x1x6]

I just don't understand what happened, we were on a 5 game winning streak, in the 8th seed and then everything just imploded.

Rudy got poked in the eye, Ben went down, boogie also missed a game with his constant ankle rolls. That's just the first two games of the 8 of 9 we lost.