I think you've pointed out a key question for the year: Who matches up against the stretch 4s? I think I'll go out on a pretty strong branch and say no chance for Cousins and Koufas to do that. It becomes more iffy when you go to Gay/WCS to match up against stretch 4s. To me, that's the key question for WCS: How many stretch 4s this coming year can he really guard?
Comparing WCS to JT
- Thread starter lawlman91
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What is a stretch 4? Is the only other thing a non-stretch 4? I have asked the question before but the concept has not found a home in my brain. SinceCuz, Koufos and WCS are centers they must not be a stretch 4. Are Acy, Moreland and Dukan stretch 4s? If not what are they? How about Evans, DWill and Landry? If you are not a stretch 4 what kind of 4 are you? Please, bring along the slow learners. Thanks.
In the simplest terms, a stretch 4 is a guy with the size and ability to guard the other teams 4, but on the offensive side, he plays more on the perimiter rather than the post. Hits deep shots so he draws (stretches) the defending 4 out of the post.
Acy and Moreland are not stretch 4's. I'm guessing we are asking Dukan to play a stretch 4. If you're not a stretch 4, you're traditional.
Acy and Moreland are not stretch 4's. I'm guessing we are asking Dukan to play a stretch 4. If you're not a stretch 4, you're traditional.
WCS can guard a PG on the perimeter. That may not be the ideal situation on a long term basis, but on a short term basis, he has the quickness, agility, and reflexes to guard just about any PG in the NBA as successfully as anyone else. Having said that, why on god's earth would you think that any stretch four in the NBA would present a problem for him. There isn't a stretch four in the NBA that's quicker, taller or bigger than Willie. That's not to say that he won't have his bad moments because of lack of experience, but he's a quick learner, and I can't think of anyone else on the team that's better suited for the job.
WCS has a portfolio, trust me.
Talent assessment is not just blatant guesswork. You can see if you look hard enough. I don't bother much with college anymore. Was more fun when guys stayed 4 years. Now I don't have the time for one and doners and its a different enough environment that translation to the pros errors can happen. But I do snap to attention when summer league rolls around, and that can be highly useful to watch skillsets. Actual summer league production isn't significant. Its skillsets. And WCS has a very obvious and extremely elite mobile defender/shotblcoker skillset. You couldn't miss it if you tried. And he's 7'1" tall. There is no size issue that is going to crop up and change his ability to function in that role. He's absolutely got a portfolio. The questions, which are fairly minor threats given our other frontcourt strengths, are whether his several weaker areas will just be mediocre or actual issues. But the portfolio is there. He is basically absolutely 100% guaranteed to be a mobile shotblocker in the NBA.
Talent assessment is not just blatant guesswork. You can see if you look hard enough. I don't bother much with college anymore. Was more fun when guys stayed 4 years. Now I don't have the time for one and doners and its a different enough environment that translation to the pros errors can happen. But I do snap to attention when summer league rolls around, and that can be highly useful to watch skillsets. Actual summer league production isn't significant. Its skillsets. And WCS has a very obvious and extremely elite mobile defender/shotblcoker skillset. You couldn't miss it if you tried. And he's 7'1" tall. There is no size issue that is going to crop up and change his ability to function in that role. He's absolutely got a portfolio. The questions, which are fairly minor threats given our other frontcourt strengths, are whether his several weaker areas will just be mediocre or actual issues. But the portfolio is there. He is basically absolutely 100% guaranteed to be a mobile shotblocker in the NBA.
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I don't see having Gay guard most stretch 4s as being iffy in the slightest. What is Ryan Anderson going to do if Gay is defending him? Or Channing Frye? Bonner? They aren't going to bully him in the post, that's just not their game. Patrick Patterson might give that a try but (1) I don't see him overpowering Rudy (2) it reduces his effectiveness as he's a good outside shooter and a mediocre post guy and (3) it reduces the court spacing and brings him into range where Boogie (or Koufos or WCS) is helping anyway.
How many stretch 4's are really going to give Rudy problems? Nowitzki? He might back down Rudy and shoot over him. Kaminsky has a decent post game too. But outside of a small number of matchups I'd be totally fine with Gay matching up with stretch 4's. Not only do I think he'll defend them well I think he will give them fits on the other end.
Even so called "Playmaking 4's" (see this article) like Draymond Green and Boris Diaw aren't any bigger than Gay.
How many stretch 4's are really going to give Rudy problems? Nowitzki? He might back down Rudy and shoot over him. Kaminsky has a decent post game too. But outside of a small number of matchups I'd be totally fine with Gay matching up with stretch 4's. Not only do I think he'll defend them well I think he will give them fits on the other end.
Even so called "Playmaking 4's" (see this article) like Draymond Green and Boris Diaw aren't any bigger than Gay.
IIRC, last year Rudy Gay defended Davis quite well.
Why is everyone assuming the taller/bigger guy is going to dominate the shorter/smaller King?
There are very few big men in the league that can punish an opponent for playing a smaller defender on him.
Cousins is one of those (he's arguably the best in the league at it), and even he has been tripped up repeatedly against smaller defenders flopping and hacking him with impunity.
Body positioning is huge in the NBA, and AFAICT it is random whether or not the bigger guy can dislodge his defender by pushing into him.
I've asked 3 times last year, and noone can tell me how that call is made nowadays : sometimes Boogie can back down his defender by dislodging him in the post, sometimes he can't.
I'm just not getting where this "bigger guy wins" belief is coming from?
Why is everyone assuming the taller/bigger guy is going to dominate the shorter/smaller King?
There are very few big men in the league that can punish an opponent for playing a smaller defender on him.
Cousins is one of those (he's arguably the best in the league at it), and even he has been tripped up repeatedly against smaller defenders flopping and hacking him with impunity.
Body positioning is huge in the NBA, and AFAICT it is random whether or not the bigger guy can dislodge his defender by pushing into him.
I've asked 3 times last year, and noone can tell me how that call is made nowadays : sometimes Boogie can back down his defender by dislodging him in the post, sometimes he can't.
I'm just not getting where this "bigger guy wins" belief is coming from?
I would say basically all of them. Seriously, he's a 7'1" freak athlete famous for being able to jump pick and rolls and stay in front of guards for a period of time. There are few stretch 4s out there who you can even argue have a skillset to bother such a player. Is Ryan Anderson going to shake a guy who can stay in front of guards? Shoot over a guy 3-4 inches taller than he is? WCS might be the perfect stretch 4 defender. Mobile enough to chase anyone. Long enough to really matter when he does stay with them. The larger question with him is how he'll handle power players. But that's more of an issue if he is playing center than at PF, where the power players he might be matched with will be 3-5 inches shorter than him. Its like a McHale situation. Sure he's skinny, but even after you bang him backwards he's still looming over you.
If WCS plays to his potential (which is fairly possible)- we shouldn't have any trouble defending any PF between him and Koufos.
I just don't trust rookies, most guys marked as elite defense guys out of college were bad defensively for most of their rookie season... but WCS is a fairly old rookie and I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Long term this shouldn't be an issue, it's hard for me to picture a more perfect guy to handle stretch bigs than WCS and Koufos is also near-perfect fit to defend post-players. that doesn't mean a guy like Blake won't score 20 on them from time to time, but you can't ask for much more defensively in that position.
I just don't trust rookies, most guys marked as elite defense guys out of college were bad defensively for most of their rookie season... but WCS is a fairly old rookie and I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Long term this shouldn't be an issue, it's hard for me to picture a more perfect guy to handle stretch bigs than WCS and Koufos is also near-perfect fit to defend post-players. that doesn't mean a guy like Blake won't score 20 on them from time to time, but you can't ask for much more defensively in that position.
i may be misunderstanding your question regarding who starts along with Cousins until WCS is read...but the way i understand it is that Koufos will be starting alongside Cousins initially....with WCS as the primary big off the bench. But seeing as how training camp hasn't even started, i'm sure every position other than Cuz's is open.
My initial thought was that WCS would have better success against stretch 4s than those that post up.
That being said, if we start Cuz and Koufos, don't WE have the advantage? Should be able to force the other team to try to play big. See GSW vs Cleveland in the finals. If Mosgov and Thompson could hit shots consistently, GSW would have gone down. Simply because they couldn't handle the physicality and their stretch 4 (Green) would be ineffective in dictating the game.
Good defensive PG play and 2 legit bigs beats small ball.
That being said, if we start Cuz and Koufos, don't WE have the advantage? Should be able to force the other team to try to play big. See GSW vs Cleveland in the finals. If Mosgov and Thompson could hit shots consistently, GSW would have gone down. Simply because they couldn't handle the physicality and their stretch 4 (Green) would be ineffective in dictating the game.
Good defensive PG play and 2 legit bigs beats small ball.
No. Because a small, skilled Pf will score from the perimeter and has a huge advantage over a bigger, slower guy like Koufos or Asik.
And the two big guys need to score in the paint in order to take advantage of their size. And versus a good zone defense and with 2 guys inside there will not be any space to get easy shots, while the opposing small ball big gets open 3 after open 3 or a wide open lane to the basket.
The only chance to go big versus todays skilled small ball players is, when , you have 2 versatile big man, who are not limited to certain moves or situations on offense.
Gasol+Randolph works to a certain extent. Cousins+Koufos will not work properly.
And the two big guys need to score in the paint in order to take advantage of their size. And versus a good zone defense and with 2 guys inside there will not be any space to get easy shots, while the opposing small ball big gets open 3 after open 3 or a wide open lane to the basket.
The only chance to go big versus todays skilled small ball players is, when , you have 2 versatile big man, who are not limited to certain moves or situations on offense.
Gasol+Randolph works to a certain extent. Cousins+Koufos will not work properly.
I think that the answer here is no. what made the Mozgov-Thompson lineup work for the Cavs was that Thompson was so good on the offensive boards (which he does on another level than Koufos) and on defense was able to switch on guards without getting destroyed. I don't see Koufos as someone athletic enough to copy that.
Thompson was not covering Klay Thompson or Curry so I'm not sure what you're speaking of. Cavs had a decisive rebounding edge when GSW went small. Problem was that Thompson couldn't make the Warriors pay on the offensive end. Blatt was scared and stopped playing Mosgov as well.
I personally think Tristan Thompson is overrated. Cousins and Koufos ia better than Thompaon Mosgov, so I stick with my assertion that 2 good bigs and a good PG beats small.
The reason why small ball worked this past season is because not enough teams have two big skilled big men. The reason why GSW wanted Jason Thompson is to protect themselves from teams with big men because it's their vulnerability. GSW was so thankful they didn't have to face the clippers. Or a healthy Memphis.
I personally think Tristan Thompson is overrated. Cousins and Koufos ia better than Thompaon Mosgov, so I stick with my assertion that 2 good bigs and a good PG beats small.
The reason why small ball worked this past season is because not enough teams have two big skilled big men. The reason why GSW wanted Jason Thompson is to protect themselves from teams with big men because it's their vulnerability. GSW was so thankful they didn't have to face the clippers. Or a healthy Memphis.