[Grades] Grades v. Knicks 12/27/2014

[rainmaker]

So if NBA3.0 is all about expanding basketball to India, to reach a gigantic untapped market that could be worth billions, then Vivek's ultimate objectives could be far different than ours. .

I increasingly fear that is what we're dealing with, that Sac is not the main market of concern for Vivek but rather adopting a style most attractive to the new NBA fan in his homeland, India, an untouched market with a lot of upside compared to little old Sac.

There is little which suggests Vivek is in-tune with this market, with this fanbase but there's plenty suggesting India is a real priority as is making headway over there. He was just there with Silver a few weeks ago. He's repeatedly said NBA 3.0 is not just about an up and down style, positionless basketball but also is a global brand, maximizing this team's presence abroad and has pointed directly to the Indian market.

And I think in his mind his priority for a style has more to do with pulling in the NBA novice in India with something he deems as "exciting" rather than following the style which is proven to win in the NBA, fits our best players and makes this market as competitive as possible, as he believes a slower, smash mouth style like Memphis won't captivate the imagination of the average Indian fan.

If true, this thing might go belly-up as fans follow Cuz to his next team. And if true, the Sac fanbase is a bystander in his greater, global plan.

 

[lawlman91]

Don't forget what PDA said when he first became the GM of this team.
He said that his ideal team and style of basketball is to have 5 athletes that can run up and down the floor for days.

As Kings fans most of us had the same thought: "That is all well and good, but we have Cousins on the team and Cousins isn't Anthony Davis. He's never going to be able to play like AD or Kenneth Faried, so while it's nice to think about an up-and-down athletic style...you have to build around your cornerstone."

When PDA got the extensions done for Cousins and Rudy I think most felt that the FO was seeing the same things we were: "As long as we play good Defense and maximize Cousins' talent, we can go out and beat anyone. Sure there is room for improvement on the offensive end, but a complete over-haul is certainly not necessary."

And that is what is really troublesome about this whole thing.
As Kingster pointed out a bit earlier, Malone was certainly fine with the idea of playing good defense and rebounding in order to get quick easy baskets in transition...so long as that did not take away from the principle identify of the team as a great defensive team.

Since PDA made it clear that Malone was fired due to playstyle and not wins and losses and because PDA said explicitly that 'Running is a mindset', it's actually possible that he believes that a complete overhaul of the offense is required and that Cousins can work in a 5-athlete run-up-and-down style of play.
We ALL know that such a playstyle will rack up points but is notoriously bad in making you an elite team...but if you're trying to market basketball in India...sure to the uninformed it might look like pretty and exciting basketball.

If you look at what he has said, and then looked at what he has done, it shows that he is being consistent in what he wants to do...and problem with that is two-fold:
First there is a derth of historical evidence that such a style has any hope to work in the play-offs when you are only playing great teams and the natural pace slows down significantly. (And I want the Kings to be competitive and could care less about how many points we score in order to achieve that)
Second, such a play-style isn't conducive to a once-in-a-generation center like we have in Cousins unless you have 'greatest-of-all-time' pieces to facilitate it perfectly.

So you might think that PDA just wants a little bit of a tweak...but at this point in time I'm actually going to take PDA at his word, since it reflects his recent actions, and I am expecting to see an overhaul of the offense with the intent of making it a high-octane scoring offense with a high pace and lip-service to defense...and I expect the losses to start pouring in unless Cousins can lead a player revolt and nip it in the bud.
(As an aside, when I say 'lip-service to defense' what I mean is losing games 108 to 104 and having our coach say the same thing each game, "We've got to improve our defense and the players need to focus and commit more to that end", with-out coming out and saying what we all know, which is a high-octane high-pace offense is going to make great defense very difficult to achieve night-in-and-night-out.)

The best thing I could get out of this is that this fast-paced offense is meant to fluff the value of our players so that they get higher PPG, and can "look" better for trades. But I highly doubt that other FO's would fall for this trick -- like an obvious troll, it's just too obvious.

 

[funkykingston]

I increasingly fear that is what we're dealing with, that Sac is not the main market of concern for Vivek but rather adopting a style most attractive to the new NBA fan in his homeland, India, an untouched market with a lot of upside compared to little old Sac.

There is little which suggests Vivek is in-tune with this market, with this fanbase but there's plenty suggesting India is a real priority as is making headway over there. He was just there with Silver a few weeks ago. He's repeatedly said NBA 3.0 is not just about an up and down style, positionless basketball but also is a global brand, maximizing this team's presence abroad and has pointed directly to the Indian market.

And I think in his mind his priority for a style has more to do with pulling in the NBA novice in India with something he deems as "exciting" rather than following the style which is proven to win in the NBA, fits our best players and makes this market as competitive as possible, as he believes a slower, smash mouth style like Memphis won't captivate the imagination of the average Indian fan.

If true, this thing might go belly-up as fans follow Cuz to his next team. And if true, the Sac fanbase is a bystander in his greater, global plan.

The problem with that is it should have made it immediately apparent that Cousins be dealt. That's the one thing that doesn't make any sense to me. DeMarcus cousins isn't a positionless athlete. He's a hulking, huge bodied, low post big man who is simply talented enough to also face up, shoot, handle the ball, pass etc.

If the Kings three year plan was to have a fast paced, competitive team built by the time the arena opened and designed for appealing to the casual fan, why not go the Sixers route of stripping everything to the studs, accumulating picks and being willing to suffer for a few seasons for long term success with a team built exactly like you want?

I think Ranadive DOES want a winning team for the fans of Sacramento. I just think he doesn't know how to go about it. And I think he and his GM misjudged the patience and basketball acumen of Kings fans. Speaking for myself and the Kings fans I know personally we would have been just fine with a total rebuild (ideally around Cousins but possibly even without) IF we could see the pathway to future success. Because I think most of us are starting to see that a complete rebuild may happen anyway and all these current machinations may do is lose us a few years and possibly the best big man in the league for nothing.

 

[Spike]

Because they didn't have much of a style before and thei don't have mich of one now. That's my reason.

You were looking at the wrong half of the court for where our old style existed. Thankfully DeMarcus saw, and continues to see, it.

 

[Chubbs]

Funky, uncia, rainmaker are hitting it out of the stadium right now.

Pshn80, please, keep asking questions. The answers you're getting are thorough and well thought out.

Any argument in favor of the firing, to me, is just missing that Malone could have grown into running a more ball movement offense. There was just no need. It's stupefying.

And it really is a bit scary that the market Vivek is after isn't this one.

I, Chubbs, of limited sleep and slightly unsound mind, am stupefied.

Carry on, folks. This is good stuff.

 

[pshn80]

All your questions have been addressed time and time again. With all due respect, you appear to just be ignoring the issues brought up. An example: The firing of Malone in and if itself isn't that great of an issue, if it happens in the summer and the replacement has time to implement his style and changes, nor would it be that great of an issue if it happened after the season. But smack in the middle of our best start in near a decade? With no replacement lined up? That's foolish at best. It throws away this season. You're being quite insincere to keep suggesting all firings at any time are equal. They are not. You also seem to be suggesting the only route to take was to throw away this season and fire Malone in Dec. And a severe lack of foresight from Vivek/PDA/Mullin is that if they did have such a problem with Malone's style and philosophy, which was the same last year as it was this year, is again to make the change before training camp.

I think your last sentence was where they were and they screwed up by not doing it in the summer. Having made that mistake, what do they do? The option they took was the firing they did. Now they are under pressure from all sides to make it work. I expect they will have ne way or another. They have gotten their way so now let's see the good results that are due. It helps nothing to discuss a done deal. We all assumed more trades/player upgrades were going to happen. That is in front of us. Corlbin was named interim coach. He will succeed or fail and be replaced or he may be replaced anyway at any time. That is in front of us. Any players that are pissed or upset will soon make there own assessment of the owners/FO commitment to improving the team. That is in front of us. Cuz, the current star depended upon to keep us afloat, is working his way back in but more time is needed to see him fit and thereby bringing tha team play on both ends upto snuff. That's in front us. Jump on board and watch it happen or not. We both aglree on winning tonight's game but dis agree on what should be talked about in the meantime.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Reno gave up 175 points in that game. I didn't even know that was mathematically possible.

it's crazy. san antonio the team vivek mentioned about mirroring has their nbdl affiliate run the same offense they are running on the main team so that the guys they send down there don't miss a beat. us? farting around w/ who can score the highest gimmicky points.

we're all over the map with what the direction is. can anybody point to something and say this is where they are headed?

 

[funkykingston]

I think your last sentence was where they were and they screwed up by not doing it in the summer. Having made that mistake, what do they do? The option they took was the firing they did. Now they are under pressure from all sides to make it work. I expect they will have ne way or another. They have gotten their way so now let's see the good results that are due. It helps nothing to discuss a done deal. We all assumed more trades/player upgrades were going to happen. That is in front of us. Corbin was named interim coach. He will succeed or fail and be replaced or he may be replaced anyway at any time. That is in front of us. Any players that are pissed or upset will soon make there own assessment of the owners/FO commitment to improving the team. That is in front of us. Cuz, the current star depended upon to keep us afloat, is working his way back in but more time is needed to seem him fit and thereby bringing tha team play on both ends upto snuff. That's in front us. Jump on board and watch it happen or not. We both agree on winning tonight's game but dis agree on what should be talked about in the meantime.

The point is that they shouldn't have made that mistake. And it's relevant to continue discussing that point because if their answer for making that mistake is to roll Tyrone Corbin out there for the rest of the year and then replace him because then they've not just made a mistake, they've wasted the whole season. And if THAT is the type of move we should learn to expect from D'Alessandro then we have to make our displeasure heard as customers so that things change.

It may help everything to discuss this done deal. Every bad move, once made, is a done deal. But by continuing to be angry about what has gone on so far this season raises the issue to the consciousness of the GM and owner. And hopefully that results in some feet being held to the fire or some sense being knocked into the decision makers.

When Malone was fired, Woj reported that it was largely due to the Kings ownership/front office feeling that somehow Malone underachieved. Then you had D'Alessandro saying, "It wasn't about wins and losses. I don't really care what our record was. It's really about who we want to be, what we want our identity to be as a team."

So either Vivek and Pete are delusional about the talent level on this team or they were valuing style over substance. Neither of those are acceptable to me or most Kings fans I'd wager. They disrupted whatever might have been building under Malone, upset the players (including their franchise player who was sadly pinning some of the blame on himself for having viral meningitis of all things), and now they have LESS of an identity as a team than they did before. Have you seen any indication that they are building a new identity in the two weeks since Malone was dismissed? I mean ANYTHING? Other than a regression on defense I mean.

I think we have more than a right to be angry. As fans I think we have an obligation.

 

[pshn80]

it's crazy. san antonio the team vivek mentioned about mirroring has their nbdl affiliate run the same offense they are running on the main team so that the guys they send down there don't miss a beat. us? farting around w/ who can score the highest gimmicky points. we're all over the map with what the direction is. can anybody point to something and say this is where they are headed?

To your last question: no not yet, that too is ahead of us. Several things, important things, are ahead of us that see forcing us to improve significantly. In the next month, season ticket sales begin for next year. Biggie. Construction has begun and anew arena will most likely in place after next season and they not only want to fill it they HAVE to fill it. Biggie. As I see it they are going to do everything they can to make it happen. There's no free ride for these guys now.

 

[funkykingston]

it's crazy. san antonio the team vivek mentioned about mirroring has their nbdl affiliate run the same offense they are running on the main team so that the guys they send down there don't miss a beat. us? farting around w/ who can score the highest gimmicky points.

we're all over the map with what the direction is. can anybody point to something and say this is where they are headed?

We've discussed this in the past and that's exactly why San Antonio is a model of consistency and the Kings continue to be a punchline.

When I coached basketball I taught the freshman the same offense they'd run with the junior varsity and varsity teams. It was a progression. And it let you know who had the skillset to succeed in your scheme and who didn't. The D-League is always going to be a crapshoot. Lots of guys will never make the NBA, others will bounce around on 10 day contracts or spend a year with one team before moving on. But if you ARE going to find a diamond in the rough it's a heck of a lot easier if you can see the player running the sets your NBA team uses to make envisioning his fit an easy process.

And the Kings are either using the Bighorns as a science experiment which makes it relatively useless for the Kings in terms of developing talent OR PDA/Vivek actually DO want to move in that direction which is an even scarier thought.

Again, Mike Malone was the only guy that I thought really "got it" in this new Kings regime. With him gone I have no idea what the plan is. And D'Alessandro keeps claiming there is one but has yet to articulate what it is other than speaking in cliches. He couldn't even give a single reason why firing Malone would make the team better.

And that move has exhausted my patience with this front office. It's time for some results.

 

[pshn80]

Funky, uncia, rainmaker are hitting it out of the stadium right now.

Pshn80, please, keep asking questions. The answers you're getting are thorough and well thought out.

Any argument in favor of the firing, to me, is just missing that Malone could have grown into running a more ball movement offense. There was just no need. It's stupefying.

And it really is a bit scary that the market Vivek is after isn't this one.

I, Chubbs, of limited sleep and slightly unsound mind, am stupefied.

Carry on, folks. This is good stuff.

Chubs, you're right these guys are doing great job expressing arguing their point. Me, too. But now
I'm tired and going to take a time out. Good post.

 

[KingsFanGER]

If you've been through it all then you have to be aware that what the fans want and what ownership wants could be two completely different things.
All the Maloofs wanted to do was move the team, and most fans just couldn't accept that is what they wanted until they made it painfully clear. (Pulling out of the NBA-agreed-upon NBA deal)
All the fans wanted was stability and a good product on the floor, but the Maloofs wanted a poor product on the floor to help facilitate a move while saving money.

So if NBA3.0 is all about expanding basketball to India, to reach a gigantic untapped market that could be worth billions, then Vivek's ultimate objectives could be far different than ours. We want stability and a winning product...and you know what, that can be very difficult to do.
But you know what is easy to do?
Run-and-gun, put up a ton of points and play 'exciting' basketball.
Ultimately it won't translate to a lot of wins...but if it can reach the population in India and bring in the money, that might be OK with Vivek. Of course he'd like to win, but that might not be the ultimate goal.

It's not black or white for me either. I prefer watching a motion offense with fantastic passing, shooting, cutting, and diving to get easy buckets. My preferred team would be one which plays a motion offense while being top in the league in rebounding and defense.

But Malone was a defensive coach, so of course he's going to start the foundation with defense, and then hopefully grow with the team to get a better offense in place. But we all know he wasn't given near enough time to do that.

I can't for one second believe that Malone was opposed to either of the following:
1.) Having an offense composed of great passing and off-ball movement to get easy shots
2.) Having a great defense which would allow for some easy transition baskets if available

What I can say is that he was probably opposed to a fast Denver-style up and down offense because it would undermine the defense.
So if he was fired due to play style it was because they really wanted a dramatically different style of play then what might have eventually evolved from Malone once we finished building the defensive foundation.

With all due respect, but you won't reach the population in India without a winning product. Who really got people around the world into basketball? Most likely Michael Jordan, because he won for most of his career AND was exciting to watch. He wouldn't have appealed so many fans around the globe without winning. Fans in India won't follow a NBA Team, cause the owner has some indian roots or he hires an overweight kid for the D-League.
The whole argument, that Vivek just cares about an exciting product for the indian market doesn't convince me.

Malone was a defensive coach, but wasn't good enough for the FO on the offensive end. I don'T believe that he was opposed to great passing and movement and all the points you mentioned. I believe the FO didn't believe after 1 season, 1 offseason and 20 games, that he was capable of implementing those things into the playstyle of the team. I believe the FO was impatient and wanted to take 3 steps at once and didn't give Malone enough time. I don't believe, that they ultimately want to change our style of play into something that looks like the Nuggets. If they really wanted to do that, why don't we see it yet under Corbin, who is blamed to just being a strawman for PDA and Vivek?

 

[arusinov]

Oh it's about fun? Sorry - stoic, cold german here - i only laugh, when i drink too much beer

I disagree with the assumptions floating around here, that the FO just want's to play some mindless, fast paced junk ball. The whole playstyle idea looks a bit overblown to me right now. In my mind no person interested in basketball will build a team around DMC and will try to play junk ball. The FO commited to DMC as their cornerstone. They won't put him in an enviroment, where he has no chance to play to his strenghts.

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck..."

1.They said they wanted Malone out because of style he installed.
2.They hired David Arsenault Jr. to Reno so he will run there his father's "Grinell System" which is defintiion of "junk ball" (and don't get me wrong I don't think it was bad idea to play this way when you have weak team in NCAA-3 - it did give his players better chances to win ... and to have fun and they were not going to be professionals anyway - it's just not for NBA and as well not approproate at all for development (!) league)
3.After Malone is fired, they uses assistant as "interim" coach. Corbin is clearly the yes-man now and doesn't try to argue with FO... So Kings didn't hold any opponent under 100 pts under Corbin.
4.They (still?) didn't hire Karl which seems to be very logical move. Maybe they feel that if accomplished coach is hired they'll not be able to make him play as they want...
...
so "...it probably is a duck", no?

 

[pshn80]

Wasn't he turnover difference alone sufficient explanation of how we lost the game. We have three that are regular contributors, Cuz, Gay and Ben with several others chipping in regularly. Triple is we can't sit because our branch is equally capable on matching their numbers. A coaches challenge.

 

[Glenn]

Wasn't he turnover difference alone sufficient explanation of how we lost the game. We have three that are regular contributors, Cuz, Gay and Ben with several others chipping in regularly. Triple is we can't sit because our branch is equally capable on matching their numbers. A coaches challenge.

So the solution would be to keep the ball out of Cousins', Gay's, and Ben's hands.


That's a joke.