[Grades] Grades v. Knicks 12/27/2014
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
Or the FO would interview coaches that share their vision and build on Corbins work this season. It should be possible to determine the style of play a certain coach wants to play, before you hire him. So basically the system must not be different and it would be possible to build on this season.
That Mullin will be the next coach is a guess right now. And that the FO are imbeciles that are all about glitz and glamour is an emotional hyberbole, based on the negative interpretation of the PDA and Vivek statements. You can read this into their statements. But you can also interpret those statements in a different, less upset, less hyberbolic and less negative way.
That Mullin will be the next coach is a guess right now. And that the FO are imbeciles that are all about glitz and glamour is an emotional hyberbole, based on the negative interpretation of the PDA and Vivek statements. You can read this into their statements. But you can also interpret those statements in a different, less upset, less hyberbolic and less negative way.
But what's the fun in that? 
I've been as hyperbolic as anyone, specifically in regards to dear Peter. I will never like him. Wins, or not. The very first interview I saw with him, snap decision was that he's a snake in a suit. Wrong or not, I'll always think that.
As for defense in this new play style, I mean, sure, it's possible to play defense. The Warriors do. The Kings just are not doing that. That was Malone's strength. They removed him under the delusion that the defensive side of the ball was handled. Done. Malone did his job, now we move on. Vivek said as much. The whole marching band vs jazz band thing. Except the second he left, the marching band left too, and now it feels like spinal tap trying to play jazz. Tough, smash mouth defense and rebounding and inside play was winning.
There remains the fatal flaw that we don't have the players for this style. Specifically, our best player. And the guys the FO thinks are suited for it (nik, dwill, collision, Ramon, Ben) just aren't guys I'd build a style to fit.
I've been as hyperbolic as anyone, specifically in regards to dear Peter. I will never like him. Wins, or not. The very first interview I saw with him, snap decision was that he's a snake in a suit. Wrong or not, I'll always think that.
As for defense in this new play style, I mean, sure, it's possible to play defense. The Warriors do. The Kings just are not doing that. That was Malone's strength. They removed him under the delusion that the defensive side of the ball was handled. Done. Malone did his job, now we move on. Vivek said as much. The whole marching band vs jazz band thing. Except the second he left, the marching band left too, and now it feels like spinal tap trying to play jazz. Tough, smash mouth defense and rebounding and inside play was winning.
There remains the fatal flaw that we don't have the players for this style. Specifically, our best player. And the guys the FO thinks are suited for it (nik, dwill, collision, Ramon, Ben) just aren't guys I'd build a style to fit.
But what's the fun in that?
I've been as hyperbolic as anyone, specifically in regards to dear Peter. I will never like him. Wins, or not. The very first interview I saw with him, snap decision was that he's a snake in a suit. Wrong or not, I'll always think that.
As for defense in this new play style, I mean, sure, it's possible to play defense. The Warriors do. The Kings just are not doing that. That was Malone's strength. They removed him under the delusion that the defensive side of the ball was handled. Done. Malone did his job, now we move on. Vivek said as much. The whole marching band vs jazz band thing. Except the second he left, the marching band left too, and now it feels like spinal tap trying to play jazz. Tough, smash mouth defense and rebounding and inside play was winning.
There remains the fatal flaw that we don't have the players for this style. Specifically, our best player. And the guys the FO thinks are suited for it (nik, dwill, collision, Ramon, Ben) just aren't guys I'd build a style to fit.
I've been as hyperbolic as anyone, specifically in regards to dear Peter. I will never like him. Wins, or not. The very first interview I saw with him, snap decision was that he's a snake in a suit. Wrong or not, I'll always think that.
As for defense in this new play style, I mean, sure, it's possible to play defense. The Warriors do. The Kings just are not doing that. That was Malone's strength. They removed him under the delusion that the defensive side of the ball was handled. Done. Malone did his job, now we move on. Vivek said as much. The whole marching band vs jazz band thing. Except the second he left, the marching band left too, and now it feels like spinal tap trying to play jazz. Tough, smash mouth defense and rebounding and inside play was winning.
There remains the fatal flaw that we don't have the players for this style. Specifically, our best player. And the guys the FO thinks are suited for it (nik, dwill, collision, Ramon, Ben) just aren't guys I'd build a style to fit.
I agree the defense has fallen apart, since Malone left. This is my major concern. But the sample size is too small to really find out, if it's not just the frustration of the players resulting in a low effort or if this is the result of a different defensive approach. The frustration may end, once the team settles into the new situation.
I disagree with the assumptions floating around here, that the FO just want's to play some mindless, fast paced junk ball. The whole playstyle idea looks a bit overblown to me right now. In my mind no person interested in basketball will build a team around DMC and will try to play junk ball. The FO commited to DMC as their cornerstone. They won't put him in an enviroment, where he has no chance to play to his strenghts.
Oh it's about fun? Sorry - stoic, cold german here - i only laugh, when i drink too much beer
I agree the defense has fallen apart, since Malone left. This is my major concern. But the sample size is too small to really find out, if it's not just the frustration of the players resulting in a low effort or if this is the result of a different defensive approach. The frustration may end, once the team settles into the new situation.
I disagree with the assumptions floating around here, that the FO just want's to play some mindless, fast paced junk ball. The whole playstyle idea looks a bit overblown to me right now. In my mind no person interested in basketball will build a team around DMC and will try to play junk ball. The FO commited to DMC as their cornerstone. They won't put him in an enviroment, where he has no chance to play to his strenghts.
I agree the defense has fallen apart, since Malone left. This is my major concern. But the sample size is too small to really find out, if it's not just the frustration of the players resulting in a low effort or if this is the result of a different defensive approach. The frustration may end, once the team settles into the new situation.
I disagree with the assumptions floating around here, that the FO just want's to play some mindless, fast paced junk ball. The whole playstyle idea looks a bit overblown to me right now. In my mind no person interested in basketball will build a team around DMC and will try to play junk ball. The FO commited to DMC as their cornerstone. They won't put him in an enviroment, where he has no chance to play to his strenghts.
But what's the fun in that?
I've been as hyperbolic as anyone, specifically in regards to dear Peter. I will never like him. Wins, or not. The very first interview I saw with him, snap decision was that he's a snake in a suit. Wrong or not, I'll always think that.
As for defense in this new play style, I mean, sure, it's possible to play defense. The Warriors do. The Kings just are not doing that. That was Malone's strength. They removed him under the delusion that the defensive side of the ball was handled. Done. Malone did his job, now we move on. Vivek said as much. The whole marching band vs jazz band thing. Except the second he left, the marching band left too, and now it feels like spinal tap trying to play jazz. Tough, smash mouth defense and rebounding and inside play was winning.
There remains the fatal flaw that we don't have the players for this style. Specifically, our best player. And the guys the FO thinks are suited for it (nik, dwill, collision, Ramon, Ben) just aren't guys I'd build a style to fit.
I've been as hyperbolic as anyone, specifically in regards to dear Peter. I will never like him. Wins, or not. The very first interview I saw with him, snap decision was that he's a snake in a suit. Wrong or not, I'll always think that.
As for defense in this new play style, I mean, sure, it's possible to play defense. The Warriors do. The Kings just are not doing that. That was Malone's strength. They removed him under the delusion that the defensive side of the ball was handled. Done. Malone did his job, now we move on. Vivek said as much. The whole marching band vs jazz band thing. Except the second he left, the marching band left too, and now it feels like spinal tap trying to play jazz. Tough, smash mouth defense and rebounding and inside play was winning.
There remains the fatal flaw that we don't have the players for this style. Specifically, our best player. And the guys the FO thinks are suited for it (nik, dwill, collision, Ramon, Ben) just aren't guys I'd build a style to fit.
Oh it's about fun? Sorry - stoic, cold german here - i only laugh, when i drink too much beer
I agree the defense has fallen apart, since Malone left. This is my major concern. But the sample size is too small to really find out, if it's not just the frustration of the players resulting in a low effort or if this is the result of a different defensive approach. The frustration may end, once the team settles into the new situation.
I disagree with the assumptions floating around here, that the FO just want's to play some mindless, fast paced junk ball. The whole playstyle idea looks a bit overblown to me right now. In my mind no person interested in basketball will build a team around DMC and will try to play junk ball. The FO commited to DMC as their cornerstone. They won't put him in an enviroment, where he has no chance to play to his strenghts.
I agree the defense has fallen apart, since Malone left. This is my major concern. But the sample size is too small to really find out, if it's not just the frustration of the players resulting in a low effort or if this is the result of a different defensive approach. The frustration may end, once the team settles into the new situation.
I disagree with the assumptions floating around here, that the FO just want's to play some mindless, fast paced junk ball. The whole playstyle idea looks a bit overblown to me right now. In my mind no person interested in basketball will build a team around DMC and will try to play junk ball. The FO commited to DMC as their cornerstone. They won't put him in an enviroment, where he has no chance to play to his strenghts.
Jamal, with respect I think this Malone firing was like a bomb being dropped on this team. The team is still feeling the effects, imo. Case in point: Jason Thompson. He has been very subpar since the firing. I think the uncertainty factor introduced with the Malone firing and now Corbin as head coach and the "pace" rhetoric from the front office has got to negatively affect the performance of this team. Yes, there may have been a regression if Malone was still head coach, but keep in mind that it's pretty reasonable to believe that the players themselves don't buy into the regression theory, and if they do regress as they might have anyway under Malone they are going to regress even more than they would have under Malone because of 2nd guessing about all this change around them. They know Corbin is an "interim" and they wonder if they might have another HC any day. It's hard enough for these guys to buy in on D when they had Malone, but it's human nature to not give that extra 5-10% effort when their current HC could be gone tomorrow.
BeanieBabies, Trapper Keepers, Fanny Packs, The Macarena, and No-Defense Run & Gun NellieBall...all things that were once hot, but the 90's are over and we Kings fans have moved on. Does the FO really think that paying fans want the glory days style in 2015??? Sorry, pal, we've seen our team play actual defense for the first time...and we liked it.
I can't believe how pissed I continue to be that they fired Malone, and in doing so took away the team that was starting to be what we'd waited for for so long.
I can't believe how pissed I continue to be that they fired Malone, and in doing so took away the team that was starting to be what we'd waited for for so long.
I try to jump on board with some of the more positive kings fans (focus my energy on the #HereWeKarl movement instead of dwell on the firing) but the way they did Malone and the players/fans is going to make it very difficult for me to trust the Mullin/PDA regime ever again. Regardless of wether or not they cave into the fans and get Karl (which I doubt).
Yes I know he said that. What looks overblown to me is, that the majority here interprets his statements in a way, that he wants this team to play 4vs5, junkball, nellie ball or how you like to call it.
I watch every Kings game. I don't think the basketball we play since Corbin took over looks like those overblown assumptions. We have problems at the defensive end. Aside from that the team runs if possible and plays through DMC in the halfcourt, but trys to set him up a bit more using screen&rolls. Not the biggest deal yet.
DMC is right - we need to get back to a better defensive effort. But this doesn't mean, that we can't improve our offense. I said it multiple times - look at the Grizzlies. They run, they use screens, they have a balanced offense and an elite defense. Who knows if PDA doesn't mean this kind of playstyle?
I still disagree with the way we handled the coaching change. I may disagree with the playstyle the FO wants. But I'll try to relax and judge the product i see on the court.
I watch every Kings game. I don't think the basketball we play since Corbin took over looks like those overblown assumptions. We have problems at the defensive end. Aside from that the team runs if possible and plays through DMC in the halfcourt, but trys to set him up a bit more using screen&rolls. Not the biggest deal yet.
DMC is right - we need to get back to a better defensive effort. But this doesn't mean, that we can't improve our offense. I said it multiple times - look at the Grizzlies. They run, they use screens, they have a balanced offense and an elite defense. Who knows if PDA doesn't mean this kind of playstyle?
I still disagree with the way we handled the coaching change. I may disagree with the playstyle the FO wants. But I'll try to relax and judge the product i see on the court.
Don't forget what PDA said when he first became the GM of this team.
He said that his ideal team and style of basketball is to have 5 athletes that can run up and down the floor for days.
As Kings fans most of us had the same thought: "That is all well and good, but we have Cousins on the team and Cousins isn't Anthony Davis. He's never going to be able to play like AD or Kenneth Faried, so while it's nice to think about an up-and-down athletic style...you have to build around your cornerstone."
When PDA got the extensions done for Cousins and Rudy I think most felt that the FO was seeing the same things we were: "As long as we play good Defense and maximize Cousins' talent, we can go out and beat anyone. Sure there is room for improvement on the offensive end, but a complete over-haul is certainly not necessary."
And that is what is really troublesome about this whole thing.
As Kingster pointed out a bit earlier, Malone was certainly fine with the idea of playing good defense and rebounding in order to get quick easy baskets in transition...so long as that did not take away from the principle identify of the team as a great defensive team.
Since PDA made it clear that Malone was fired due to playstyle and not wins and losses and because PDA said explicitly that 'Running is a mindset', it's actually possible that he believes that a complete overhaul of the offense is required and that Cousins can work in a 5-athlete run-up-and-down style of play.
We ALL know that such a playstyle will rack up points but is notoriously bad in making you an elite team...but if you're trying to market basketball in India...sure to the uninformed it might look like pretty and exciting basketball.
If you look at what he has said, and then looked at what he has done, it shows that he is being consistent in what he wants to do...and problem with that is two-fold:
First there is a derth of historical evidence that such a style has any hope to work in the play-offs when you are only playing great teams and the natural pace slows down significantly. (And I want the Kings to be competitive and could care less about how many points we score in order to achieve that)
Second, such a play-style isn't conducive to a once-in-a-generation center like we have in Cousins unless you have 'greatest-of-all-time' pieces to facilitate it perfectly.
So you might think that PDA just wants a little bit of a tweak...but at this point in time I'm actually going to take PDA at his word, since it reflects his recent actions, and I am expecting to see an overhaul of the offense with the intent of making it a high-octane scoring offense with a high pace and lip-service to defense...and I expect the losses to start pouring in unless Cousins can lead a player revolt and nip it in the bud.
(As an aside, when I say 'lip-service to defense' what I mean is losing games 108 to 104 and having our coach say the same thing each game, "We've got to improve our defense and the players need to focus and commit more to that end", with-out coming out and saying what we all know, which is a high-octane high-pace offense is going to make great defense very difficult to achieve night-in-and-night-out.)
He said that his ideal team and style of basketball is to have 5 athletes that can run up and down the floor for days.
As Kings fans most of us had the same thought: "That is all well and good, but we have Cousins on the team and Cousins isn't Anthony Davis. He's never going to be able to play like AD or Kenneth Faried, so while it's nice to think about an up-and-down athletic style...you have to build around your cornerstone."
When PDA got the extensions done for Cousins and Rudy I think most felt that the FO was seeing the same things we were: "As long as we play good Defense and maximize Cousins' talent, we can go out and beat anyone. Sure there is room for improvement on the offensive end, but a complete over-haul is certainly not necessary."
And that is what is really troublesome about this whole thing.
As Kingster pointed out a bit earlier, Malone was certainly fine with the idea of playing good defense and rebounding in order to get quick easy baskets in transition...so long as that did not take away from the principle identify of the team as a great defensive team.
Since PDA made it clear that Malone was fired due to playstyle and not wins and losses and because PDA said explicitly that 'Running is a mindset', it's actually possible that he believes that a complete overhaul of the offense is required and that Cousins can work in a 5-athlete run-up-and-down style of play.
We ALL know that such a playstyle will rack up points but is notoriously bad in making you an elite team...but if you're trying to market basketball in India...sure to the uninformed it might look like pretty and exciting basketball.
If you look at what he has said, and then looked at what he has done, it shows that he is being consistent in what he wants to do...and problem with that is two-fold:
First there is a derth of historical evidence that such a style has any hope to work in the play-offs when you are only playing great teams and the natural pace slows down significantly. (And I want the Kings to be competitive and could care less about how many points we score in order to achieve that)
Second, such a play-style isn't conducive to a once-in-a-generation center like we have in Cousins unless you have 'greatest-of-all-time' pieces to facilitate it perfectly.
So you might think that PDA just wants a little bit of a tweak...but at this point in time I'm actually going to take PDA at his word, since it reflects his recent actions, and I am expecting to see an overhaul of the offense with the intent of making it a high-octane scoring offense with a high pace and lip-service to defense...and I expect the losses to start pouring in unless Cousins can lead a player revolt and nip it in the bud.
(As an aside, when I say 'lip-service to defense' what I mean is losing games 108 to 104 and having our coach say the same thing each game, "We've got to improve our defense and the players need to focus and commit more to that end", with-out coming out and saying what we all know, which is a high-octane high-pace offense is going to make great defense very difficult to achieve night-in-and-night-out.)
I don't really see how the assumptions are being overblown.
1) Vivek/PDA fired Malone due to not playing the style they preferred, and made very public comments on just that
2) PDA/Mullin started campaigning for Vivek to fire Malone during our hot start and flew to Vegas to push for the firing, which obviously says it was more about style than wins/losses and building around our strengths
3) PDA explicitly said he doesn't care about wins/losses, only cares about the style on the floor
4) Reno, the NBADL team Vivek owns has implemented the exact non-defensive, up and down style they're talking about with the Kings. Their season low is 127 and they're losing games where they score 130, 140, even over 150. It's ridiculous. A week ago they scored 152 and still got blown off the court.
5) Everything suggests Vivek's and PDA's comfort zone comes from Den and GS, two teams who notoriously have played an up and down style with little regard to defense. Of course, GS learned their lesson and have switched gears with defense and a halfcourt offense being the priority under Kerr, which seems lost on Vivek and PDA.
6) Vivek's closest advisor in Mullin employed the exact up and down style and made roster moves to that effect as a GM in GS, and it was a mess. Jerry West had to come in and clean everything up.
7) We have our franchise player coming out in the media and saying exactly what fans an analysts alike are saying and have noticed, which is there's no longer a concentration on defense and we have to get back to being a defensive minded team. That isn't about players just being upset, it's more about where the tone is set and what the concentration is on starting with scouting reports, watching film, the game plan gone over at shootaround. Players don't just show up and decide to play or not play defense. The plan and focus starts hours before off the court.
8) We also have Rudy coming out and saying we don't have an identity and we have to get back to our old identity. That's also clear evidence that behind the scenes the tone and focus has changed, from defense to a more up and down style.
And you seem to be implying our FO and owner have Cuz's best intentions in mind. Then I ask, when Cuz was sick and tired of losing and finally got a taste of winning under a coach he backed, playing a grind it out style which had more success than any other style he's played in during his 5 years in the league, did they blow up the season, wipe away Cuz's chances of making the playoffs and put him in a position where he's pissed off and not happy with the new emphasis on the offensive end, even after a win? Cuz has been through this up and down, positionless crap before and saw it fail. It happened under Smart.
The counter argument to all this seems to be, well they must have a plan, give them time. Well that's not much to go on and there's far more evidence suggesting we have a serious problem than to just sit back and hope this all works out. We've had about 8 good seasons since 1985! The hoping it all works out thought process regularly has yielded **** returns.
1) Vivek/PDA fired Malone due to not playing the style they preferred, and made very public comments on just that
2) PDA/Mullin started campaigning for Vivek to fire Malone during our hot start and flew to Vegas to push for the firing, which obviously says it was more about style than wins/losses and building around our strengths
3) PDA explicitly said he doesn't care about wins/losses, only cares about the style on the floor
4) Reno, the NBADL team Vivek owns has implemented the exact non-defensive, up and down style they're talking about with the Kings. Their season low is 127 and they're losing games where they score 130, 140, even over 150. It's ridiculous. A week ago they scored 152 and still got blown off the court.
5) Everything suggests Vivek's and PDA's comfort zone comes from Den and GS, two teams who notoriously have played an up and down style with little regard to defense. Of course, GS learned their lesson and have switched gears with defense and a halfcourt offense being the priority under Kerr, which seems lost on Vivek and PDA.
6) Vivek's closest advisor in Mullin employed the exact up and down style and made roster moves to that effect as a GM in GS, and it was a mess. Jerry West had to come in and clean everything up.
7) We have our franchise player coming out in the media and saying exactly what fans an analysts alike are saying and have noticed, which is there's no longer a concentration on defense and we have to get back to being a defensive minded team. That isn't about players just being upset, it's more about where the tone is set and what the concentration is on starting with scouting reports, watching film, the game plan gone over at shootaround. Players don't just show up and decide to play or not play defense. The plan and focus starts hours before off the court.
8) We also have Rudy coming out and saying we don't have an identity and we have to get back to our old identity. That's also clear evidence that behind the scenes the tone and focus has changed, from defense to a more up and down style.
And you seem to be implying our FO and owner have Cuz's best intentions in mind. Then I ask, when Cuz was sick and tired of losing and finally got a taste of winning under a coach he backed, playing a grind it out style which had more success than any other style he's played in during his 5 years in the league, did they blow up the season, wipe away Cuz's chances of making the playoffs and put him in a position where he's pissed off and not happy with the new emphasis on the offensive end, even after a win? Cuz has been through this up and down, positionless crap before and saw it fail. It happened under Smart.
The counter argument to all this seems to be, well they must have a plan, give them time. Well that's not much to go on and there's far more evidence suggesting we have a serious problem than to just sit back and hope this all works out. We've had about 8 good seasons since 1985! The hoping it all works out thought process regularly has yielded **** returns.
Yup.
And yup some more.
D'Alessandro had been beating the same drum since day one. That he wanted "positionless basketball", "interchangeable athletes" etc. Mullin is a Nellie disciple and a was part of RUN TMC so I think it's clear the style he likes. Beyond the much talked about 4 on 5 concept that Vivek pitched, he's made lots of comments about having an exciting, uptempo team. I finally realized why Malone's termination bothers me so much and why I'm so deflated with him gone. He was the voice of reason.
Look, Malone wasn't the best coach in the league. The Kings had a surprising start to the season but I wasn't convinced they were a playoff team even though it was nice to have the hope. But most importantly, he had the guys buying in and it was clearly paying off on the court. The team was improving - based on the eye test and on the stats. And Malone was intent on developing a blue collar, defensive identity that fit his team's strengths. He was the one guy in the Kings' organization that I was convinced "got it". Everyone else? I had some concerns.
But when the press asked Malone about playing 4 on 5 defense he just laughed and said his team wouldn't be doing that. Whew. Ridiculousness averted as we don't have to watch the Kings get embarrassed by professional offenses carving up a 4 man zone.
When PDA and Ranadive hired a 28 year old D-III assistant to run their D-League team with the goal of putting up offensive numbers that would make the 80's Nuggets blush I worried that that was a blueprint for the big league club. But there was Malone saying that the team's identity came from playing defense and rebounding the ball. Whew.
When you had video of the team owner fist pumping for Nik Stauskas and calling him "Klay Curry" you had Malone being smart enough to limit his minutes, bring him along slowly and throw out a DNP-CD in games like Chicago where Butler would have eaten Nik alive. Whew.
To me, the big fear is that Malone was the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike, holding back a flood of bad ideas.
And yup some more.
D'Alessandro had been beating the same drum since day one. That he wanted "positionless basketball", "interchangeable athletes" etc. Mullin is a Nellie disciple and a was part of RUN TMC so I think it's clear the style he likes. Beyond the much talked about 4 on 5 concept that Vivek pitched, he's made lots of comments about having an exciting, uptempo team. I finally realized why Malone's termination bothers me so much and why I'm so deflated with him gone. He was the voice of reason.
Look, Malone wasn't the best coach in the league. The Kings had a surprising start to the season but I wasn't convinced they were a playoff team even though it was nice to have the hope. But most importantly, he had the guys buying in and it was clearly paying off on the court. The team was improving - based on the eye test and on the stats. And Malone was intent on developing a blue collar, defensive identity that fit his team's strengths. He was the one guy in the Kings' organization that I was convinced "got it". Everyone else? I had some concerns.
But when the press asked Malone about playing 4 on 5 defense he just laughed and said his team wouldn't be doing that. Whew. Ridiculousness averted as we don't have to watch the Kings get embarrassed by professional offenses carving up a 4 man zone.
When PDA and Ranadive hired a 28 year old D-III assistant to run their D-League team with the goal of putting up offensive numbers that would make the 80's Nuggets blush I worried that that was a blueprint for the big league club. But there was Malone saying that the team's identity came from playing defense and rebounding the ball. Whew.
When you had video of the team owner fist pumping for Nik Stauskas and calling him "Klay Curry" you had Malone being smart enough to limit his minutes, bring him along slowly and throw out a DNP-CD in games like Chicago where Butler would have eaten Nik alive. Whew.
To me, the big fear is that Malone was the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike, holding back a flood of bad ideas.
Great posts by Uncia and Rainmaker. Reading all of that really makes me wonder if they will consider trading Cousins for some highflyers who will ooo and ahh the crowds of India with their dunks and fancy passes once they realize he cant play run n gun longterm .
I think at a certain point its going to come down to who Vivek believes in most, Cousins or PDA/Mullin and 1 of the 2 will have to go (Cuz or PDA/Mullin).
Veteran owner no problem they always side with the young superstar(espcially in a market like Sacramento) but a rookie owner who gushes over Chris freakin Mullin and hasnt taken his lumps yet makes me nervous. Losing Cousins due to Viveks growing pains has the potential to set us back at least another decade, possibly longer depending on how long it takes Vivek to realize that the fans want wins and junkball is all a gimmick.
The long time posters in here have seen it all in regards to the kings and can already see the writing the wall, the sense of negitivity is coming from of a place of fear and unless changes come soon we could be in for something we absolutely cant have again, a huge blunder(trading cousins)that leads to another long hopeless drought.
I think at a certain point its going to come down to who Vivek believes in most, Cousins or PDA/Mullin and 1 of the 2 will have to go (Cuz or PDA/Mullin).
Veteran owner no problem they always side with the young superstar(espcially in a market like Sacramento) but a rookie owner who gushes over Chris freakin Mullin and hasnt taken his lumps yet makes me nervous. Losing Cousins due to Viveks growing pains has the potential to set us back at least another decade, possibly longer depending on how long it takes Vivek to realize that the fans want wins and junkball is all a gimmick.
The long time posters in here have seen it all in regards to the kings and can already see the writing the wall, the sense of negitivity is coming from of a place of fear and unless changes come soon we could be in for something we absolutely cant have again, a huge blunder(trading cousins)that leads to another long hopeless drought.
Yes, it's called the Arseneault system I believe. I watched the BigHorns use it and get trounced by 20 points the other day on national television, against the lakers Defenders D-League team (which set a new D-League record in that game for the most number of points scored in a half). The commentators kept saying that the BigHorns parent organization wanted to implement this at the NBA level. *shudder*
Thanks for another great post.
Thanks for another great post.
All real concerns but isn't't there another side to all of this that you are leaving out? Just go back to your thorough list and turn each around and look at the positive side. There is another view than yours and a reasonable one. Neither view changes the game results and we share a mutual concern there. Beat Brooklyn first and then take the rest one at a time.
An example at looking at the other side is - Firing Malone: Ranadive, Mullin, and PDA (who run the team) were not satisfied that Malone was doing the best job at managing players and team play - what should they do? - fire him of course - that is the normal way such problems are corrected. That has been done - they and there staff and coaches and players are turned to the task of making significant progress in improving the team - making it better for all including us fans. Now just what is wrong with that other than you don't like it?
An example at looking at the other side is - Firing Malone: Ranadive, Mullin, and PDA (who run the team) were not satisfied that Malone was doing the best job at managing players and team play - what should they do? - fire him of course - that is the normal way such problems are corrected. That has been done - they and there staff and coaches and players are turned to the task of making significant progress in improving the team - making it better for all including us fans. Now just what is wrong with that other than you don't like it?
Running is a mindset. The ideal team is to have 5 athletes that can run all day.
Did I miss something in the recent games? Did we run all day? We are talking about some mindless comments from a rookie GM. If you are willing to take this literally go ahead.
I ve been through all those Kings years too. I agree with the arguments that a high paced run and gun offense won't win in the playoffs. Everyone watching basketball around the planet knows this. And you tell me, that our GM isn't aware of this? That he doesn't care, that this playstyle never led to sucess? If this really is the case - he won't have a long career as a GM. But how likely is this?
But I think that a slow paced ISO offense which is turnover prone and relies solely on a once in a decade talent, an offense which doesn't put role players in a position to suceed, which causes the team to collaps when the franchise player (who is often in foul trouble) is off the court won't win in the playoffs neither.
It's not black or white for me. It doesn't need to be full run and gun or smashmouth defensive ISO basketball. Best case will be a mixture of both and most winning teams in the league know this. I ll wait and see, if we are making steps into this direction. If this isn't the case, our GM is as good as gone, since there are no excuses left.
Did I miss something in the recent games? Did we run all day? We are talking about some mindless comments from a rookie GM. If you are willing to take this literally go ahead.
I ve been through all those Kings years too. I agree with the arguments that a high paced run and gun offense won't win in the playoffs. Everyone watching basketball around the planet knows this. And you tell me, that our GM isn't aware of this? That he doesn't care, that this playstyle never led to sucess? If this really is the case - he won't have a long career as a GM. But how likely is this?
But I think that a slow paced ISO offense which is turnover prone and relies solely on a once in a decade talent, an offense which doesn't put role players in a position to suceed, which causes the team to collaps when the franchise player (who is often in foul trouble) is off the court won't win in the playoffs neither.
It's not black or white for me. It doesn't need to be full run and gun or smashmouth defensive ISO basketball. Best case will be a mixture of both and most winning teams in the league know this. I ll wait and see, if we are making steps into this direction. If this isn't the case, our GM is as good as gone, since there are no excuses left.
Because there are 'Best Practices' which are pretty obvious to anyone who closely follows the NBA.
1.) A team doesn't establish an identity in a mere 20 games and a solid foundation is not built in such short a time.
- Ranadive was convinced that the foundation was completed when in fact it had barely started to settle.
So NBA Best Practice #1: If you truly want to build a strong foundation, then have patience. You can't have a foundation when you have over-hauled the roster to the point where only 2 players are remaining from the start of the previous year.
2.) Stability and Chemistry is one of the most important factors to being successful in the NBA.
- As mentioned, the team roster was the very opposite of stable and the full roster had only played a measly 15 games prior to the firing...so there hadn't been any time for true chemistry to form.
- Firing a head coach who is winning with no replacement in place completely undermines organizational stability.
- You will note that Golden State had every right to fire Mark Jackson...but they followed Best Practices and only did it after the team had experienced winning in the play-offs and they did it immediately after the end of the season so that there would be time to get everything settled.
So NBA Best Practice #2: Don't expect to gain chemistry and stability, which leads to winning basketball, by overhauling the entire roster and firing a head coach who was getting far more than anticipated out of the roster after only 15 full games of said roster being together.
3.) High-pace offenses usually result in more points scored but also lower the ceiling of a defense
- High pace offenses typically prevent teams from reaching their best defensive potential. This is due to two aspects:
The first is that a high pace offense prevents the team from getting back into their own half court to set the defense because that style of play encourages the other team to take advantage of missed shots by going quickly the other way to score in transition.
The second is that running a high pace offense will physically wear you out more which will slowly erode the amount of energy you can expend on the defensive end.
So NBA Best Practice #3: Don't expect to go from a middle-pace defensive team to a high-pace defensive team and be truly competitive against the elite teams...unless you've got some of the best players in the NBA fitted to that style on the floor for you. (Note: We don't have the personnel)
I believe that Vivek wants to win. I also believe that HE believes that firing Malone and bringing in Corbin would result in a better chance to make the play-offs. (His words on the matter)
The issue is that anyone who closely follows the game could have told him that he would be wrong in thinking that firing Malone for Corbin would completely undermine the season.
More than anything, the timing of the firing, lends itself to be a decision not driven by winning more games, but as a power struggle between PDA and Malone, with PDA back-stabbing Malone while he had the opportunity. As a Kings fan, I want to win and the actions taken by the FO have completely sub-marined that goal.
Best Practices are Best Practices for a reason...and you can work outside the box on occasion...but if you just ignore them you are showing NBA ignorance and not NBA innovation...and that is why the FO is getting deservedly ripped at the moment.
Now bring in Karl, and we can revisit all of these points...because then it makes more sense...but if Corbin finishes out the season....it would be incomprehensible.
1.) A team doesn't establish an identity in a mere 20 games and a solid foundation is not built in such short a time.
- Ranadive was convinced that the foundation was completed when in fact it had barely started to settle.
So NBA Best Practice #1: If you truly want to build a strong foundation, then have patience. You can't have a foundation when you have over-hauled the roster to the point where only 2 players are remaining from the start of the previous year.
2.) Stability and Chemistry is one of the most important factors to being successful in the NBA.
- As mentioned, the team roster was the very opposite of stable and the full roster had only played a measly 15 games prior to the firing...so there hadn't been any time for true chemistry to form.
- Firing a head coach who is winning with no replacement in place completely undermines organizational stability.
- You will note that Golden State had every right to fire Mark Jackson...but they followed Best Practices and only did it after the team had experienced winning in the play-offs and they did it immediately after the end of the season so that there would be time to get everything settled.
So NBA Best Practice #2: Don't expect to gain chemistry and stability, which leads to winning basketball, by overhauling the entire roster and firing a head coach who was getting far more than anticipated out of the roster after only 15 full games of said roster being together.
3.) High-pace offenses usually result in more points scored but also lower the ceiling of a defense
- High pace offenses typically prevent teams from reaching their best defensive potential. This is due to two aspects:
The first is that a high pace offense prevents the team from getting back into their own half court to set the defense because that style of play encourages the other team to take advantage of missed shots by going quickly the other way to score in transition.
The second is that running a high pace offense will physically wear you out more which will slowly erode the amount of energy you can expend on the defensive end.
So NBA Best Practice #3: Don't expect to go from a middle-pace defensive team to a high-pace defensive team and be truly competitive against the elite teams...unless you've got some of the best players in the NBA fitted to that style on the floor for you. (Note: We don't have the personnel)
I believe that Vivek wants to win. I also believe that HE believes that firing Malone and bringing in Corbin would result in a better chance to make the play-offs. (His words on the matter)
The issue is that anyone who closely follows the game could have told him that he would be wrong in thinking that firing Malone for Corbin would completely undermine the season.
More than anything, the timing of the firing, lends itself to be a decision not driven by winning more games, but as a power struggle between PDA and Malone, with PDA back-stabbing Malone while he had the opportunity. As a Kings fan, I want to win and the actions taken by the FO have completely sub-marined that goal.
Best Practices are Best Practices for a reason...and you can work outside the box on occasion...but if you just ignore them you are showing NBA ignorance and not NBA innovation...and that is why the FO is getting deservedly ripped at the moment.
Now bring in Karl, and we can revisit all of these points...because then it makes more sense...but if Corbin finishes out the season....it would be incomprehensible.
All your questions have been addressed time and time again. With all due respect, you appear to just be ignoring the issues brought up.
An example: The firing of Malone in and if itself isn't that great of an issue, if it happens in the summer and the replacement has time to implement his style and changes, nor would it be that great of an issue if it happened after the season. But smack in the middle of our best start in near a decade? With no replacement lined up? That's foolish at best. It throws away this season. You're being quite insincere to keep suggesting all firings at any time are equal. They are not. You also seem to be suggesting the only route to take was to throw away this season and fire Malone in Dec. And a severe lack of foresight from Vivek/PDA/Mullin is that if they did have such a problem with Malone's style and philosophy, which was the same last year as it was this year, is again to make the change before training camp.
An example: The firing of Malone in and if itself isn't that great of an issue, if it happens in the summer and the replacement has time to implement his style and changes, nor would it be that great of an issue if it happened after the season. But smack in the middle of our best start in near a decade? With no replacement lined up? That's foolish at best. It throws away this season. You're being quite insincere to keep suggesting all firings at any time are equal. They are not. You also seem to be suggesting the only route to take was to throw away this season and fire Malone in Dec. And a severe lack of foresight from Vivek/PDA/Mullin is that if they did have such a problem with Malone's style and philosophy, which was the same last year as it was this year, is again to make the change before training camp.
If you've been through it all then you have to be aware that what the fans want and what ownership wants could be two completely different things.
All the Maloofs wanted to do was move the team, and most fans just couldn't accept that is what they wanted until they made it painfully clear. (Pulling out of the NBA-agreed-upon NBA deal)
All the fans wanted was stability and a good product on the floor, but the Maloofs wanted a poor product on the floor to help facilitate a move while saving money.
So if NBA3.0 is all about expanding basketball to India, to reach a gigantic untapped market that could be worth billions, then Vivek's ultimate objectives could be far different than ours. We want stability and a winning product...and you know what, that can be very difficult to do.
But you know what is easy to do?
Run-and-gun, put up a ton of points and play 'exciting' basketball.
Ultimately it won't translate to a lot of wins...but if it can reach the population in India and bring in the money, that might be OK with Vivek. Of course he'd like to win, but that might not be the ultimate goal.
It's not black or white for me either. I prefer watching a motion offense with fantastic passing, shooting, cutting, and diving to get easy buckets. My preferred team would be one which plays a motion offense while being top in the league in rebounding and defense.
But Malone was a defensive coach, so of course he's going to start the foundation with defense, and then hopefully grow with the team to get a better offense in place. But we all know he wasn't given near enough time to do that.
I can't for one second believe that Malone was opposed to either of the following:
1.) Having an offense composed of great passing and off-ball movement to get easy shots
2.) Having a great defense which would allow for some easy transition baskets if available
What I can say is that he was probably opposed to a fast Denver-style up and down offense because it would undermine the defense.
So if he was fired due to play style it was because they really wanted a dramatically different style of play then what might have eventually evolved from Malone once we finished building the defensive foundation.
All the Maloofs wanted to do was move the team, and most fans just couldn't accept that is what they wanted until they made it painfully clear. (Pulling out of the NBA-agreed-upon NBA deal)
All the fans wanted was stability and a good product on the floor, but the Maloofs wanted a poor product on the floor to help facilitate a move while saving money.
So if NBA3.0 is all about expanding basketball to India, to reach a gigantic untapped market that could be worth billions, then Vivek's ultimate objectives could be far different than ours. We want stability and a winning product...and you know what, that can be very difficult to do.
But you know what is easy to do?
Run-and-gun, put up a ton of points and play 'exciting' basketball.
Ultimately it won't translate to a lot of wins...but if it can reach the population in India and bring in the money, that might be OK with Vivek. Of course he'd like to win, but that might not be the ultimate goal.
It's not black or white for me either. I prefer watching a motion offense with fantastic passing, shooting, cutting, and diving to get easy buckets. My preferred team would be one which plays a motion offense while being top in the league in rebounding and defense.
But Malone was a defensive coach, so of course he's going to start the foundation with defense, and then hopefully grow with the team to get a better offense in place. But we all know he wasn't given near enough time to do that.
I can't for one second believe that Malone was opposed to either of the following:
1.) Having an offense composed of great passing and off-ball movement to get easy shots
2.) Having a great defense which would allow for some easy transition baskets if available
What I can say is that he was probably opposed to a fast Denver-style up and down offense because it would undermine the defense.
So if he was fired due to play style it was because they really wanted a dramatically different style of play then what might have eventually evolved from Malone once we finished building the defensive foundation.
Apparently pretty likely.
It's funny but the few people that have defended D'Alessandro (mostly in passing and almost none vociferously) can only do so by ignoring his actual quotes and essentially using the argument that, "he can't be that dumb/misguided can he?"
I'm not calling you out in any way and in a lot of ways I agree, D'Alessandro HAS to know that run-and-gun, smallball, Nellieball has never won anything in the NBA right?
But his own quotes fly in the face of that. Either he really believes the Kings are best suited to being a running team or Vivek does and PDA is just taking his marching orders. But I can't even give him that benefit of the doubt since he claims that it was he and Mullin that flew out to convince Vivek to fire Malone. Somebody traded Mbah a Moute for Derrick Williams. Somebody hired Arseneault to coach the Big Horns. Somebody thinks the Kings need a more "exciting" style of play. Somebody fired Malone after the best start the Kings have seen in a decade despite not having a replacement for him. Whether that somebody is Vivek or D'Alessandro or both is immaterial.
PDA says it's about the style of play. Ranadive says he expects the Kings to win more games under Corbin than Malone and make the playoffs.
Ultimately all that matters is whether the Kings win or lose games and whether the team is getting better or worse. How many people would argue that the Kings are better off today than they were a month ago?
It's funny but the few people that have defended D'Alessandro (mostly in passing and almost none vociferously) can only do so by ignoring his actual quotes and essentially using the argument that, "he can't be that dumb/misguided can he?"
I'm not calling you out in any way and in a lot of ways I agree, D'Alessandro HAS to know that run-and-gun, smallball, Nellieball has never won anything in the NBA right?
But his own quotes fly in the face of that. Either he really believes the Kings are best suited to being a running team or Vivek does and PDA is just taking his marching orders. But I can't even give him that benefit of the doubt since he claims that it was he and Mullin that flew out to convince Vivek to fire Malone. Somebody traded Mbah a Moute for Derrick Williams. Somebody hired Arseneault to coach the Big Horns. Somebody thinks the Kings need a more "exciting" style of play. Somebody fired Malone after the best start the Kings have seen in a decade despite not having a replacement for him. Whether that somebody is Vivek or D'Alessandro or both is immaterial.
PDA says it's about the style of play. Ranadive says he expects the Kings to win more games under Corbin than Malone and make the playoffs.
Ultimately all that matters is whether the Kings win or lose games and whether the team is getting better or worse. How many people would argue that the Kings are better off today than they were a month ago?
