Looked good, but inconsistent. My biggest knock on him was lack of aggression. When you see a player with picture perfect form, you have to believe that he'll eventually start shooting consistently. He is a late bloomer, so everyone knew he was a little behind the curve. I still think that given time, he can become a good player. His biggest problem is mental. Good shooters think every shot they take is going in. I think both D Will and Ben hope their shots go in. If your thinking about your shot when you shoot, your probably going to miss a lot of shots.
A McLemore question
- Thread starter Mr. S£im Citrus
- Start date
The most telling for me that Ben is not going to be a very good player is that this kid does not have basketball instinct. I think he is just learning the ins and outs of basketball now and it shows on how he plays. You can have all the athleticism in the world, but if you lack that basketball instinct (or quickness in thinking at the very list) you're not going to get anywhere in this league. Maybe the most he can be is a reserve or end of the bench type of player.
I don't know if anyone remembers when Ben saved the ball under the basket and tried to throw it on a Portland Trailblazer's player's foot instead of just giving it to his teammate who also happens to be there and almost in front of him. So dumb to do, especially when you are already a sophomore.
The second/third instances that tells me this kid is slow to think is when he dove for the loose ball and hold on to it when he could easily pass/tap it to a teammate near him. He had probably a split second to give it to an open teammate while he was down, but opted to just embrace the ball. Another Blazer caught the ball with him causing a jump ball. And this happened twice during the game.
This kid is athletic. He maybe athletic enough to be a decent defender, but too soft to be a top defender. And he probably has one of the best shooting form, but if you are not making those shots and you are dumb you are still not going to be a starter material.
In summary, Ben is just not going to be a starter material in the mold of Ray Allen or Tony Allen. Just trade him while he still has some value.
I don't know if anyone remembers when Ben saved the ball under the basket and tried to throw it on a Portland Trailblazer's player's foot instead of just giving it to his teammate who also happens to be there and almost in front of him. So dumb to do, especially when you are already a sophomore.
The second/third instances that tells me this kid is slow to think is when he dove for the loose ball and hold on to it when he could easily pass/tap it to a teammate near him. He had probably a split second to give it to an open teammate while he was down, but opted to just embrace the ball. Another Blazer caught the ball with him causing a jump ball. And this happened twice during the game.
This kid is athletic. He maybe athletic enough to be a decent defender, but too soft to be a top defender. And he probably has one of the best shooting form, but if you are not making those shots and you are dumb you are still not going to be a starter material.
In summary, Ben is just not going to be a starter material in the mold of Ray Allen or Tony Allen. Just trade him while he still has some value.
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Not really sure where all the "Ben McLemore is soft" talk is coming from. Has he done anything particularly soft recently? Not as far as I can recall. Last year he was too weak to defend and guys were simply backing him down in the post. This season he's gotten stronger and it's definitely helped him raise his defensive game. But being physically weak and mentally soft are about as related as Adam Morrison and Kevin Durant are, that is to say, not at all.
Will he ever be a crazy person like Tony Allen? Probably not. But let's face it, if Tony Allen weren't tall enough to play basketball, he'd probably be one of those dudes muttering to himself about the TV ordering him to burn down the capital you pass in your car everyday.
Will he ever be a crazy person like Tony Allen? Probably not. But let's face it, if Tony Allen weren't tall enough to play basketball, he'd probably be one of those dudes muttering to himself about the TV ordering him to burn down the capital you pass in your car everyday.
As soon as he starts becoming aggressive, we see a lot of wild plays by him. He needs to have the same shooting regardless of the situation, I don't see how a player with good shooting mechanics can be so terrible at shooting, most of the shooters that enter the league don't exactly light it up from day one but you see strides. That we haven't seen in any form, that's what troubles me.
I'm just not seeing where all this talk about Ben's defense is coming from.
Klay had an off night behind the 3pt line but was able to get into the lane almost at will against him.
Matthews went 1-7 beyond the arc but overpowered Ben in the post and made nearly 100% of his shots from 2 point land.
Redick was wide open all game and went 2-10 from beyond the arc. Very uncharacteristic of him.
He's been lucky that 3 great 3 point shooters have been cold against him or else we might be 0-3. I will say that he's been better than he was last year where he looked completely lost. At least right now he looks somewhat competent but he's not even close to even being average right now.
Klay had an off night behind the 3pt line but was able to get into the lane almost at will against him.
Matthews went 1-7 beyond the arc but overpowered Ben in the post and made nearly 100% of his shots from 2 point land.
Redick was wide open all game and went 2-10 from beyond the arc. Very uncharacteristic of him.
He's been lucky that 3 great 3 point shooters have been cold against him or else we might be 0-3. I will say that he's been better than he was last year where he looked completely lost. At least right now he looks somewhat competent but he's not even close to even being average right now.
Something unusual regarding Ben is I don't think I've ever seen anyone with similar athleticism who literally has no idea how to finish around the basket or use that athleticism to draw fouls. His footwork when attacking the paint is terrible. And for how good a shooter he was supposed to be, he has no touch around the rim.
That is what's worrying. Most guys with his athleticism who have success in this league are natural attackers, almost relentless in getting to the rim and drawing contact. The shooting comes later. Right now, Ben doesn't have either and it's his lack of anything decent around the rim which tells me he has a long way to go mentally. The footwork and ability to draw/seek contact around the rim, with his athleticism, would have been a natural foundation in his development which he apparently missed. He's generally off-balance, takes poor angles and avoids contact. People want to talk about basketball IQ, well that's an example of poor basketball IQ as he's missing some basic fundamentals given his explosiveness.
That is what's worrying. Most guys with his athleticism who have success in this league are natural attackers, almost relentless in getting to the rim and drawing contact. The shooting comes later. Right now, Ben doesn't have either and it's his lack of anything decent around the rim which tells me he has a long way to go mentally. The footwork and ability to draw/seek contact around the rim, with his athleticism, would have been a natural foundation in his development which he apparently missed. He's generally off-balance, takes poor angles and avoids contact. People want to talk about basketball IQ, well that's an example of poor basketball IQ as he's missing some basic fundamentals given his explosiveness.
This. I guess I notice his mistakes more than his positives because he let barnes run past him a few times, left riddick open (or ran into a screen to allow a 3pt shot from his man). But in the end, his defense is better than Nik's so far, especially against Klay.
Offensively, Ben looks lost but gets more open and more touches than Nik. I'm always looking out for Nik when he plays and he doesn't get the ball when he's wide open (eg. when Gay is driving to the hoop and Nik is wide open behind the arc). Also, I feel like Nik plays too unselfishly to catch and shoot, he seems to want to "run a play" and would rather pass the ball
Offensively, Ben looks lost but gets more open and more touches than Nik. I'm always looking out for Nik when he plays and he doesn't get the ball when he's wide open (eg. when Gay is driving to the hoop and Nik is wide open behind the arc). Also, I feel like Nik plays too unselfishly to catch and shoot, he seems to want to "run a play" and would rather pass the ball
Oh the opposite, I think last year Ben was one of the most mentally soft players I had ever seen in the NBA. He looked flat scared. Completely unprepared to compete with grown men. the only thing that kept me from photoshopping a pacifier in his mouth is I think he's a nice kid, with emphasis on kid, who really tries, so why humiliate him when he probably already felt bad about sucking. But his awful last year was 90% mental awful. He's not a competitor, certainly not a killer. He comes off as a sweet young kid looking for approval and trying to do the right thing. Which is another way of saying that given the talent I would have eaten his soul back in my playing days, as would any fierce and unfriendly competitor. Nice guys truly do finish last in sport.
But physically...people make too much of leaping ability for guards. That's beach muscle stuff. All for looks with limited practical application as a rule. But he's still obviously a very athletic guy even without that. You put Tony Allen's ferocity in Ben's young body and you have a butt kicker on defense with the biggest question being a critical one people overlook -- does he have good lateral movement.. Still the holdup with him is not the physical stuff, its exactly the opposite.
And this year BTW he does look less scared. He's learned quite a bit, which frankly makes his complete ineffectiveness even more telling because what he is learning is how to stay out of the way and not cause harm. But he's learning, so I think his lack of basketball IQ may have more to do with lack of talent and lack of feel than it does inability to be taught. He's gotten better. But you don't "learn" to hate your opponent and want to destroy their will and send them home crying to mommy. You don't learn to have a fierce unreasonable pride that doesn't let you ever bow to an opponent, ever. You either have that or you don't. Ben never will. There will never be a feud between Ben and somebody the way Boogie starts with half the league. Ben will never be proud and unreasonable like a Kobe or an IT. That's a good thing in every way except the pursuit of excellence.
But physically...people make too much of leaping ability for guards. That's beach muscle stuff. All for looks with limited practical application as a rule. But he's still obviously a very athletic guy even without that. You put Tony Allen's ferocity in Ben's young body and you have a butt kicker on defense with the biggest question being a critical one people overlook -- does he have good lateral movement.. Still the holdup with him is not the physical stuff, its exactly the opposite.
And this year BTW he does look less scared. He's learned quite a bit, which frankly makes his complete ineffectiveness even more telling because what he is learning is how to stay out of the way and not cause harm. But he's learning, so I think his lack of basketball IQ may have more to do with lack of talent and lack of feel than it does inability to be taught. He's gotten better. But you don't "learn" to hate your opponent and want to destroy their will and send them home crying to mommy. You don't learn to have a fierce unreasonable pride that doesn't let you ever bow to an opponent, ever. You either have that or you don't. Ben never will. There will never be a feud between Ben and somebody the way Boogie starts with half the league. Ben will never be proud and unreasonable like a Kobe or an IT. That's a good thing in every way except the pursuit of excellence.
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But at the same time, I'm not quite sure the brawler's mentality is a necessity in a strong NBA defender. Sure the Ron Rons of the world would disagree, but there are plenty of defenders in the league's history that haven't been raging ***holes. While he wasn't exactly a pushover, Doug Christie isn't going to be in anyone's dictionary next to brawler (even if he did try to decapitate Rick Fox in a preseason game). Bruce Bowen wasn't nice out there but he wasn't mean. Raja Bell also wasn't Captain Sunshine but he wasn't going to clobber you unless absolutely necessary. (Also looking through this list, how the hell did Larry Hughes wind up a first team All-Defensive Teamer?) That's just goign over the past fifteen or so years but there are cases of non-alpha males winning the award pretty much every year.
Now, it may seem like I'm advocating B-Mac but that's certainly not the case. If it's a question of whether or not Ben has it, my answer is probably no. If the question is whether or not Ben will ever even reach the level to sniff any of those first teamers' jockstraps, the answer is once again no. But for this team, as currently constructed and under the assumption that PDA won't make another move this season (which, knowning PDA, probably won't be the case), he's pretty much the closest to a "defensive stopper" on the wing (at least when it comes to SGs or smaller SFs) we have, which is either a damnation of our roster construction or a testament to Mike Malone's ability to lay out a heck of a defensive scheme. I just wish he'd make an open shot every once in a while.
Now, it may seem like I'm advocating B-Mac but that's certainly not the case. If it's a question of whether or not Ben has it, my answer is probably no. If the question is whether or not Ben will ever even reach the level to sniff any of those first teamers' jockstraps, the answer is once again no. But for this team, as currently constructed and under the assumption that PDA won't make another move this season (which, knowning PDA, probably won't be the case), he's pretty much the closest to a "defensive stopper" on the wing (at least when it comes to SGs or smaller SFs) we have, which is either a damnation of our roster construction or a testament to Mike Malone's ability to lay out a heck of a defensive scheme. I just wish he'd make an open shot every once in a while.
K
We don''t need Ben to be a defensive stopper we just need him to be a ok two way player in the mold of Jodie Meeks, Jodie Meeks you would never confuse for a good defender but the guy does try his ass off and gets some back on the other end spreading the floor. If he could what Jodie Meeks does in the next few seasons to me that's good enough but the problem is atm he's a long way from being anywhere near the player Jodie is currently/was last year.
For what its worth Raja and Bowen were both well known cheap shot artists that would hurt you if that's what it took to stop you.
You could go Battier, but that was all about brains which you again have an impossible argument that Ben is going to demonstrate.
Doug perhaps stands as an exemplar...of strangeness. Still he's your best case to highlight.
The whole Ben as great defender thing however is another of those artifacts of some seriously crapty scouting of Ben, and basically can be summed up as: great athlete, hence has chance to be great defender. Which is just...duh.
You could go Battier, but that was all about brains which you again have an impossible argument that Ben is going to demonstrate.
Doug perhaps stands as an exemplar...of strangeness. Still he's your best case to highlight.
The whole Ben as great defender thing however is another of those artifacts of some seriously crapty scouting of Ben, and basically can be summed up as: great athlete, hence has chance to be great defender. Which is just...duh.
as long as the kid keeps working on his game and buys into the system defensively and doesnt force his offense im cool with him. By all accounts hes been working hard and i agree 100% about everything being said about his demeanor. The kid looked scared last year and this may take time. A 3 and D player is fine by me but im not limiting him to that just yet.
Now is not the time to tear the kid down. I dont care about your hopes and dreams for him when we drafted him and its that mentality as well as self belief that i hope Ben embraces. His biggest enemy now is self doubt which i feel there was an element of to his game last year
Now is not the time to tear the kid down. I dont care about your hopes and dreams for him when we drafted him and its that mentality as well as self belief that i hope Ben embraces. His biggest enemy now is self doubt which i feel there was an element of to his game last year
I don't think he is soft or weak or unintelligent or any of that. I think he's just a good kid with a type B personality. That in itself does not make you less competitive or incapable of success. I could argue that Durant is a competitive type B personality who is leading simply because of his overwhelming talent and not because of his dominating personality.
I think I pointed this out before but Ben's best games whereat the end of the year last year when the coaching staff started running plays for him and had him handling the ball.
I agree that Ben has learned to get out of the way on offense in an attempt to avoid the criticism that hears. However I think it would be in Ben's best interest if the coaching staff actually asked more of him. Not less.
We always use the Spurs as an example of a well run team. What Pop does is expect the same level of play from every player on his team. This doesn't mean discard a player when he doesn't perform perfectly. It just means that no player can hide from your weakness. You have to address it to survive. Pop had to call type B personality Leonard out to make him take more shots in the finals and it raised Leonards level of play.
Ben can't hide on defense and he is doing what he needs to do to show he can be an NBA player on that side of the ball. But on offense, no one is doing him any favors by not giving him more touches or not letting him handle the ball. He has the tools for offense. Force him to compete. Let him sink or swim. If the team feels they can't afford to develop him, then trade him.
I think I pointed this out before but Ben's best games whereat the end of the year last year when the coaching staff started running plays for him and had him handling the ball.
I agree that Ben has learned to get out of the way on offense in an attempt to avoid the criticism that hears. However I think it would be in Ben's best interest if the coaching staff actually asked more of him. Not less.
We always use the Spurs as an example of a well run team. What Pop does is expect the same level of play from every player on his team. This doesn't mean discard a player when he doesn't perform perfectly. It just means that no player can hide from your weakness. You have to address it to survive. Pop had to call type B personality Leonard out to make him take more shots in the finals and it raised Leonards level of play.
Ben can't hide on defense and he is doing what he needs to do to show he can be an NBA player on that side of the ball. But on offense, no one is doing him any favors by not giving him more touches or not letting him handle the ball. He has the tools for offense. Force him to compete. Let him sink or swim. If the team feels they can't afford to develop him, then trade him.
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The Clips really have replaced the Lakers as the Socal team to "hate". I have not seen a team whine, complain and get furious about calls since......well since the Lakers were good and did the same exact thing
The Clips are new Socal bad actors
Ben def saved a dunk right there AND Blake MISSED the free throws, which made it all good
The Clips are new Socal bad actorsBen def saved a dunk right there AND Blake MISSED the free throws, which made it all good
I'll agree with the OP as far as his defense. I don't see T Allen but if he approaches that, everyone would be happy. When the idea of KMart was brought up I wasn't for that...but after these 3 games and seeing the team defense, he would help. But, maybe no one agrees with me, I think I'd rather have KMart and Ben at the SG position instead of KMart and Stauskas. Main reason is if we has KMart and Nik, I believe we have no one who can stop an opposing teams SG's.....and granted Nik has shown some moments of good defense, I think overall he's limited by his lack of foot speed or agility....his height has made up for that a bit.
I think if we dangled Nik and DWill in a deal we could KMart and then another young piece to make up for the loss of Nik.....it's not going to happen but if we were concerned about this year right now, Nik is not an untouchable.
I think if we dangled Nik and DWill in a deal we could KMart and then another young piece to make up for the loss of Nik.....it's not going to happen but if we were concerned about this year right now, Nik is not an untouchable.
You don't give up Nik for K-Mart..... that's a HUGE no, unless the FO really thinks that Ben is heading into the right direction.
We'd be giving up our 2014 lottery pick for a 31 yearold SG.
If the FO ever decided to include Nik in a trade for K-Mart, it would have to be something like K-Mart+Shabazz Muhammad+Glen Robinson 3 for D-Will+Nik.
We'd be giving up our 2014 lottery pick for a 31 yearold SG.
If the FO ever decided to include Nik in a trade for K-Mart, it would have to be something like K-Mart+Shabazz Muhammad+Glen Robinson 3 for D-Will+Nik.