Send Mclemore to NBDL, give Ray his minutes
- Thread starter GoSACtown
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Not necessary. First they play different positions, and secondly, Ray has averaged 27.5 minutes per game his last two games, so he's getting his minutes. I think the Kings believe that both McCallum and McLemore are important pieces of the future, so they both need to get playing time. In Ben's case, it can be a little painful to watch at times. But if a player like Ben is going to get meaningful minutes, it's more likely to happen on a bad team than a good team. Ray is a prime example of how much better a player can be if he plays three or four years of college ball versus one year. Having a father that's a coach doesn't hurt either.
Baja is correct. Ray is a PG and Ben is a SG. Ray sometimes plays SG and does pretty well at it. This is the part of the season non-playoff teams like the Kings let the young players develop. I think it best to let Ray and Ben play together as much as possible. Ray as the primary ball handler can help Ben. Ray having the collegiate experience while playing for his Coach Father knows as much about BBall as any player at his age.
I'm hoping both these young guys improve enough to play major minutes on a Kings playoff team.
Ben has been slow to develop. That said, he should not be in the D league at this point. He is a Blue Chip prospect and needs to develop in the NBA.
I'm hoping both these young guys improve enough to play major minutes on a Kings playoff team.
Ben has been slow to develop. That said, he should not be in the D league at this point. He is a Blue Chip prospect and needs to develop in the NBA.
Not sure how much of the NBDL season is left at this point.
And really we, meaning the front office, intentionally set up these last couple months as an open audition for Ben/Ray at the big league level. Thus far one has fallen flat (well, even flatter) on his face. The other is probably in the process of securing a roster spot and perhaps even consistent rotation spot next season. So its kinda working in a separate the wheat from the chaff type of fashion. After the audition is over, the interesting thing is what becomes of Ben next season? Its getting late enough now it would be very hard for him to show so strong that we go, ok, you are the starter next year. If he wants that, he would have to turn it around, and dramatically, like NOW. Highly doubt it. So if he's going to be a bench player, if not entirely gone, next season, that would be when maybe if he does not come around we NBDL'd him. But that deep into his career that would of course be a terrible sign.
And really we, meaning the front office, intentionally set up these last couple months as an open audition for Ben/Ray at the big league level. Thus far one has fallen flat (well, even flatter) on his face. The other is probably in the process of securing a roster spot and perhaps even consistent rotation spot next season. So its kinda working in a separate the wheat from the chaff type of fashion. After the audition is over, the interesting thing is what becomes of Ben next season? Its getting late enough now it would be very hard for him to show so strong that we go, ok, you are the starter next year. If he wants that, he would have to turn it around, and dramatically, like NOW. Highly doubt it. So if he's going to be a bench player, if not entirely gone, next season, that would be when maybe if he does not come around we NBDL'd him. But that deep into his career that would of course be a terrible sign.
I agree. Hopefully, the Kings will acquire a starting SG in the offseason, and move Ben back to the bench where he really belongs. Of course there have been players in their second and third years that have been sent to the D-League. But in most cases, they're on very good teams like the Thunder where their services aren't needed in the short term. One has to hope that Ben works his butt off in the offseason, and that the Kings supervise what he's doing. He has all the physical ability in the world, and despite some flaws in his game, most of his problems seem to be mental. He makes poor decisions and too many times, tries to do things he's not capable of. Or, not do things he should be doing. Like leaving a good three point shooter to help in the post for no apparent reason. Offensively, getting him some easy baskets would help.
As of this particular second, McLemore is the highest scoring freshman in Kansas history with Wiggins #2 and Danny Manning #3. I haven't finished watching the game to know for sure but this is where he stands as a scorer in Kansas history. Whether he is #1 or #2 is not the most relevant part of what I am saying. He WAS doing something right. Patience.
I deleted my note. I'm not going to debate this with you. The point is that Ben has demonstrated an ability to score and that's the point I wanted to make. Whether it means anything is up to you and anyone else to determine. I understand that the perfect use of English and logic frequently becomes more the issue than the basketball related point.
Just recently I brought up Wilt's accomplishments and was told that basketball was different back then so you can't compare his stats with a modern player. You should have a debate with that person.
Just recently I brought up Wilt's accomplishments and was told that basketball was different back then so you can't compare his stats with a modern player. You should have a debate with that person.
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Okay, First of All™, you appear to have gotten something completely different out of what I typed than what I actually typed. Perhaps you are hypersensitive to this issue, or something, in which case... I guess I'm sorry... but I did not type what I typed to diminish McLemore in any shape, form or fashion. So, I'll thank you not to confuse my pedantic nature with some kind of passive-aggressive player-bashing. If I wanted to belittle what McLemore did in college, I probably would have, at least, mentioned him by name.
Second of all, I'm not sure what thread you're referring to, regarding Chamberlain's accomplishments but, presuming that I actually saw it in the first place, if I didn't see something to nitpick, I probably didn't have any incentive to get involved.
Second of all, I'm not sure what thread you're referring to, regarding Chamberlain's accomplishments but, presuming that I actually saw it in the first place, if I didn't see something to nitpick, I probably didn't have any incentive to get involved.
You will never touch any hypersensitive chord in my body. You in particular do not have that capability. Just playin' with ya as you play with others. Give me a half a year or so and I'll get it down right. 
The last issue I could be sensitive to is Ben freaking McLemore. He looks bad. He has an immense offensive game except for the concept of putting the ball in the basket.
The last issue I could be sensitive to is Ben freaking McLemore. He looks bad. He has an immense offensive game except for the concept of putting the ball in the basket.Yeah, Wilt had to play on the freshman team his first year at Kansas. However, his freshman team beat the varsity team in a scrimage team and Wilt scored over 40 something points. In his first year with the varisity, Wilt averagd 29.6 PPG, 18.9 rebounds a game, and scored a grand total of 800 points. By comparison, McLemore scored a grand total of 589 points. Of course its not fair to compare McLemore to Wilt. Entirely different players, and Wilt may be the best player to ever play the game. If not, he's certainly in the top five. I admit to being biased since Wilt is my all time favorite player with Oscar Robertson coming in a close second. Another less known fact about Wilt is that he won rookie of the year his first year in the NBA. And, he also won most valuable player that year as well.
I know its common for fans to believe that current players are always better than the players of the past, and there's no way to dispute it. But I would put Wilt up against any center thats ever played in the league. And he played against some very good one's during his career. Including Kareem Abdul Jabbar early in his career. Moses Malone, Nate Thurman, Wes Unsel to name a few. Oh, and I forgot some guy named Bill Russell.
I know its common for fans to believe that current players are always better than the players of the past, and there's no way to dispute it. But I would put Wilt up against any center thats ever played in the league. And he played against some very good one's during his career. Including Kareem Abdul Jabbar early in his career. Moses Malone, Nate Thurman, Wes Unsel to name a few. Oh, and I forgot some guy named Bill Russell.
Hell, if you want to take my Circular Reasoning 101 class, you could look at it like this: Chamberlain spanked a young Abdul-Jabbar, who had his way with a young Olajuwon, who embarrassed a young O'Neal, who dominated a young Duncan, who got the better of a young James.
By this argument, we have conclusively proven that Wilt Chamberlain > LeBron James.
By this argument, we have conclusively proven that Wilt Chamberlain > LeBron James.
Here is a link to Ben's stats at Kansas--> http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/ben-mclemore-1.html
Ben was 73 for 174 from the College 3 point line. His average was .420!
Ben was 73 for 174 from the College 3 point line. His average was .420!
If I were in Malone's shoes I'd tell Ben that the biggest focus of his offseason work should be working on catch and shoots. Drifting to the corner, coming off screens, curling to the elbow - any and all variety of getting open, receiving a pass and quickly getting into a shooting motion. And do it as often as it takes (1000 a day?) to feel completely confident rising up and hitting from anywhere.
Obviously conditioning is important and he needs to watch film to see where he should be defensively and where he missed assignments this season, and ballhandling work can only help, but McLemore is likely going to make it or not make it in the NBA based on whether that beautiful looking jumper of his starts falling with regularity or not.
Ben may never be more than a 3&D wing but right now he's failing at both of those. I am certain his shooting can come around if he's committed to it this offseason.
We'll have a very good idea of whether Ben is cut out to be an NBA player very early into next season. I certainly think he can be.
Obviously conditioning is important and he needs to watch film to see where he should be defensively and where he missed assignments this season, and ballhandling work can only help, but McLemore is likely going to make it or not make it in the NBA based on whether that beautiful looking jumper of his starts falling with regularity or not.
Ben may never be more than a 3&D wing but right now he's failing at both of those. I am certain his shooting can come around if he's committed to it this offseason.
We'll have a very good idea of whether Ben is cut out to be an NBA player very early into next season. I certainly think he can be.
Ben needs drastic improvements in defensive stance and footwork. Even without increased strength, which, I hope, he'll work on too, that would allow him to contribute: with being burnt repeatedly on D, I'm sure he wants to do something to help his team, and so far in his career shooting was the only thing he did well, but now can't do even that.
I agree on the mental mistakes. A lot of it is inexperience, and not understanding that the guy sitting at the end of the bench in the NBA, was probably the star on his college team, or at least highshcool team. In the NBA, your mistakes are magnified, and he hasn't gotten that yet. Any professional athlete in any sport, is going to run into a wall now and then. That's when your tested. That's when you need mental toughness. Not saying that a sport Psychologist wouldn't help, but except in rare cases, I don't think it's necessary. When you arrive in the NBA, everything appears to be moving faster. Players seem to be quicker, and there is some truth to that perception. As a result, young players try to speed up their game, and usually with poor results. It's like taking a smooth relaxed golf swing and hitting the ball down the middle. And then, you decide you need just a couple of extra yards, and start adding a little bit more muscle to your swing. Now your swing has disappeared, and your in the tree's instead of the middle of the fairway.
When you speed everything up in the NBA, you end up in the tree's as well. When you play too fast, your brain can't keep up with what your body's doing. I agree with Funky, he needs to concentrate and work on what he does best. Larry Bird said that he would spend the offseason working on a shot from just one spot on the floor until it became automatic. Where he felt he was going to make it every time he took it. Then the next offseason, he would work on a different spot because he knew the defense was going to take away the other spot. That's the approach McLemore needs to take. Build your game one step at a time. Defensively, he needs to watch a lot of film, and stop paying more attention to the ball than the man he's guarding.
When you speed everything up in the NBA, you end up in the tree's as well. When you play too fast, your brain can't keep up with what your body's doing. I agree with Funky, he needs to concentrate and work on what he does best. Larry Bird said that he would spend the offseason working on a shot from just one spot on the floor until it became automatic. Where he felt he was going to make it every time he took it. Then the next offseason, he would work on a different spot because he knew the defense was going to take away the other spot. That's the approach McLemore needs to take. Build your game one step at a time. Defensively, he needs to watch a lot of film, and stop paying more attention to the ball than the man he's guarding.
The funny thing about your offensive suggestions is that these were the things he was undeniably good at coming out of Kansas. Which begs the question of what happened? Who truly knows. I wondered very early in the season if he continued to run around screens to get open, only to never get the ball, would it mess with his game. I think it has to a degree.
Ben has talent and ability. I think he has been mismanaged to a degree. Let me rephrase that. I think the total lack of production from Thornton forced the Kings to make a decision to start Ben, which was not how they wanted to do it.
I'm still a believer in Ben, unlike some others for a simple reason. Everyone doubted his ability to improve his dribbling. He couldn't even take 2 dribbles without fumbling it out of bounds. Now he is making moves and taking his man to the hole. ( I know he's not making his shots when he drives) He's already improved the worst part of his game, so I believe he'll continue to improve other aspects as well. He has time and we have time. The whole team is a work in progress.
Ben has talent and ability. I think he has been mismanaged to a degree. Let me rephrase that. I think the total lack of production from Thornton forced the Kings to make a decision to start Ben, which was not how they wanted to do it.
I'm still a believer in Ben, unlike some others for a simple reason. Everyone doubted his ability to improve his dribbling. He couldn't even take 2 dribbles without fumbling it out of bounds. Now he is making moves and taking his man to the hole. ( I know he's not making his shots when he drives) He's already improved the worst part of his game, so I believe he'll continue to improve other aspects as well. He has time and we have time. The whole team is a work in progress.
There is much truth in this post. Although I would point out that when you say that everything appears to be moving faster in the NBA, that's because everything is moving faster in the NBA. A twenty-four second shot clock, as opposed to a thirty-five second shot clock, is a big difference.
I am against the idea of sending McLemore to the D-League, at this point in the season (especially since the D-League season is almost over), but I completely endorse the idea of sending your draft picks to the D-League, in principle. Even lottery picks. I've heard some people use the excuse that they can't get better coaching/whatever than against actual NBA talent, and that's true, as far as it goes. But, the D-League is the next best thing. It would give your young draft pick a chance to get acclimated to actual pro game length (48min versus 40min), actual pro game speed (120 possessions versus 69 possessions), differences in officiating and miscellaneous game rules (longer three-point line, illegal defense/no "pure" zone, fouls called differently, etc.), playing a pro-style offense/defense against pro (even if they're second-tier pro) level players, all without having to deal with the pressure of making an immediate impact.
If you end up on an NBA team like Sacramento who, according to Capt. Factorial, has operational control over its D-League affiliate, and can tells them what plays to run, and how many minutes to give to whom, there was no really good reason not to send McLemore down much earlier in the season. After all, the D-League season and the NBA seasons don't start at the same time. Okay, so you start McLemore on the main roster: by the time the D-League season gets underway, the coaching staff should have already figured out whether he was ready or not. We may not necessarily have been able to afford to give McLemore thirty-three minutes a night to get his **** together on the main roster, but we could certainly have afforded to give him thirty-three minutes a night on the Bighorns, where he would have - as I understand it - been learning the same system that he's playing under now, and not immediately have to deal with the immediate expectations that are part and parcel with being a Top Ten lottery pick.
I am against the idea of sending McLemore to the D-League, at this point in the season (especially since the D-League season is almost over), but I completely endorse the idea of sending your draft picks to the D-League, in principle. Even lottery picks. I've heard some people use the excuse that they can't get better coaching/whatever than against actual NBA talent, and that's true, as far as it goes. But, the D-League is the next best thing. It would give your young draft pick a chance to get acclimated to actual pro game length (48min versus 40min), actual pro game speed (120 possessions versus 69 possessions), differences in officiating and miscellaneous game rules (longer three-point line, illegal defense/no "pure" zone, fouls called differently, etc.), playing a pro-style offense/defense against pro (even if they're second-tier pro) level players, all without having to deal with the pressure of making an immediate impact.
If you end up on an NBA team like Sacramento who, according to Capt. Factorial, has operational control over its D-League affiliate, and can tells them what plays to run, and how many minutes to give to whom, there was no really good reason not to send McLemore down much earlier in the season. After all, the D-League season and the NBA seasons don't start at the same time. Okay, so you start McLemore on the main roster: by the time the D-League season gets underway, the coaching staff should have already figured out whether he was ready or not. We may not necessarily have been able to afford to give McLemore thirty-three minutes a night to get his **** together on the main roster, but we could certainly have afforded to give him thirty-three minutes a night on the Bighorns, where he would have - as I understand it - been learning the same system that he's playing under now, and not immediately have to deal with the immediate expectations that are part and parcel with being a Top Ten lottery pick.
I would like to see Ray and Ben play together more and with only one of the big 2. Ben has shown some progression on the offensive side in driving to the basket and finishing.....has shown progression in dribbling, has struggled on defense and shooting. Doesn't get a lot of touches, would like to see him get more and drive. I still think he's going to be fine. Needs to get stronger and I'm sure he will....this is a process.
I think the game will eventually slow down for Ben.
I hope he's still with us when it does. There's an expiration date on this project. I'm not sure when that is, but it's there.
I was worried about the Isaiah impact at the beginning of the season when I thought Ben/Isaiah/Landry would come off the bench together. No shots there for Ben. Now as starters with cousins and Rudy, those same problems remain. However, Ben is in the situation where he needs touches to get better, and hasn't done anything to deserve touches. And your PG is worried about #1 more than the rook sg. And of course pleasing the coach and cousins and Rudy, while going against his scoring instincts.
They're trying to force Isaiah to be something he isn't. And he doesn't look capable. And the turnovers keep rising...
I hope he's still with us when it does. There's an expiration date on this project. I'm not sure when that is, but it's there.
I was worried about the Isaiah impact at the beginning of the season when I thought Ben/Isaiah/Landry would come off the bench together. No shots there for Ben. Now as starters with cousins and Rudy, those same problems remain. However, Ben is in the situation where he needs touches to get better, and hasn't done anything to deserve touches. And your PG is worried about #1 more than the rook sg. And of course pleasing the coach and cousins and Rudy, while going against his scoring instincts.
They're trying to force Isaiah to be something he isn't. And he doesn't look capable. And the turnovers keep rising...
I wanna just add: Ben lacks of BB IQ. He have to watch and watch again thousand of Ray Allen's moves (obviously Ray is an example, but it works). Then all the things funkykingston said are correct. Lot of work. Every day, every night.
I don't think Ben will be better then Ray (even if i hope so ) because without a strong "control" of bball is difficult to get any better every year.
Just see Joakim Noah. He's the perfect counter-example of Ben (very skills-limited player, but with a superb IQ, great heart and disposition/temperament)
I don't think Ben will be better then Ray (even if i hope so
) because without a strong "control" of bball is difficult to get any better every year.Just see Joakim Noah. He's the perfect counter-example of Ben (very skills-limited player, but with a superb IQ, great heart and disposition/temperament)