Lettuce be cereal about Ben Mac..

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#31
Before I say anything, I'll make a comment about professional ethics in the area of mental health. It is not ethical for a professional, which I am, to comment on someone they have not met face to face especially if the claim is that I know something no one else knows. I'm stuck with the rest of you. I don't know Ben and neither does anyone else on this forum. In fact, I'll bet he's more of an enigma than most. That is quite unlike Boogie where everybody claims to know him and what to do about him.

All I know about Ben is what everybody else knows and that is that he is young and very athletic. I don't know why he was red shirted in college as that is very unusual. Yes, he was at Kansas but if he was amazingly good, he wouldn't have been red shirted. I had a similar thought about TRob who came from Kansas. My thought was that if he was so damn good, why didn't he start until the Morris twins left?

What I am getting at is that maybe he isn't that good.

But let's continue with the game that I know something about Ben. ;) I compare him to Jimmer which assumes the unassumable and that is that I know what Jimmers' problems were and I know what Ben's problems are. The thing is that there are similarities in what we see. Jimmer was a great shooter coming out of college. He didn't shoot well until his third year in the NBA. Third year meaning 4 years of college and three in the NBA. Ben played one year in college so is 5 years behind Jimmer. Was my math correct? I am close enough as my point is made.

His shots look like they should fall, don't they? Also I notice the ball bouncing off his hands periodically. I asked a question once about his hand size and was assured his hands were bigger than average for a guy his height. I doubt that but if it's true there is some reason he can't hold on to the ball. I remember back to the beginning of the year when he missed dunks. It was as if he knew he could dunk but mysteriously he missed probably surprising him more than the rest of us. Why is that? I wish I knew.

Now to take a right turn in this exercise. I am concerned about the judgment of the FO and the coach. If I had absolute faith in Malone I would relax. I question throwing Ben onto the court as a starter right off the bat. What if Ben gets discouraged by never ending failure which has been his experience? If he gets discouraged, Malone made a mistake. Maybe Ben is one of the remarkable athletes who can tolerate failure after failure, missed dunk after missed dunk, missed lay up after missed lay up. Anyone want to make a bet on that? As a generality, I can't help but think he is very discouraged and I lay that at the feet of Malone. No basketball player misses the shots he misses unless they are rattled.

What mystifies me is that we are painting him into a corner where he has to play. MT and Jimmer are gone. Ben has to play. Put yourself in his shoes. He has yet to be a success yet he has to play big minutes. I don't trust Malone's judgment and I really am scratching my head as to PDA's actions especially as to how they effect Ben. If the pressure to be a success is getting to Ben, Malone and PDA have made it worse.

I don't understand Ben and that's the bottom line. With Jimmer I think we all could see his anxiety. I don't "see" anxiety in Ben but that doesn't mean he isn't anxious. All I see is a socially uncomfortable and maybe not the brightest guy in the world with huge potential. Ultimately the issue is "what now?" My "what now" is play him a few more years. Don't give up.

This isn't the answer you wanted but I cannot give the answer you wanted as some one will say "hey, I know a psychiatrist who says this and that about Ben." I won't do it and I hope I have said little more than an astute student of athletes might say.
This has probably already been answered, but Ben went to Wellston High, a school I'm very familiar with. I grew up two blocks from that school. Its located in one of the roughest, toughest neighborhoods in the St. Louis area. The school was shut down for various reasons, and he was forced to go to several different highschools, including Oakhill academy if I'm not mistaken. Because of some disagreement over his highschool records, of which there were many, he was ruled ineligible by the NCAA, and was therefore redshirted. At the time, he was ranked the 4th best highschool player in the nation by Rivals.

Having said all that, I'm actually surprised by all this attention directed to McLemore. How much attention, and or responsiblity was directed toward Kobe the year he was drafted by the Lakers? How many Laker fans held Kobe responsible for the results of the team? In a normal world, McLemore would be coming off the bench playing behind an experienced veteran and maybe playing between 12 to 15 minutes a game. Its only because this team is so thin on talent, that he's drawing so much attention. It's not his damm fault the team sucks at times. You don't take a young pilot that still learning to fly and put him in the cockpit of a 737 full of people and expect everything to go perfectly.

I said from the get go that it was going to take two to three years for McLemore to develop. To pass judgement on him now, after some 50 plus games in his rookie year, is just plain stupid! Now if we're still having this conversation two years from now, then it has merit, and I'll be right there with everyone else. Don't get me wrong. I have no problem having a discussion about what he needs to improve on. Nor am I saying its a given that he'll be what everyone expects him to be. But any discussion along the lines of, what you see now is what you'll get, with no room for improvement, is ridiculous.

Edit: There has been mention of T. Robb and Jimmer in relationship to McLemore. Remember, T. Robb went to Kansas for 3 years, and Jimmer went to BYU for 4 years. Ben only had one year at Kansas. Point being, that a GM should have had a much better idea of what he was getting with the first two. The fact is, McLemore is a far more skilled offensive player than Robinson was after three years of college. His skills may not be adding up to results right now, but the skill set is there. He just needs to learn how to use it properly. That's entirely different than not having any offensive skills at all. Robinson had only one real skill, and that was rebounding. Jimmer needs no explaination.
 
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bajaden

Hall of Famer
#32
I'm reserving judgement on BMac until he has played at least a full season. I hope this year we can get better draft positioning. If we were higher up we could have had Victor Oladipo
Do you know one major difference between McLemore and Oladipo? Oladipo went to Indiana for three years and McLemore went to Kansas for one year. How much better do you think McLemore might be if he had stayed at Kansas for two more years. Here's the difference between Oladipo's first and third years.

Freshman: 18.0 MPG - 7.4 PPG - 54.7% FGP - 30.8% 3PP - 3.7 RPG - 0.9 APG - 1.1 SPG
Junior: 28.4 MPG - 13.6 PPG - 59.9% FGP - 44.1% 3PP - 6.3 RPG - 2.1 APG - 2.2 SPG

Obvious improvement. Not so much in scoring, but in overall efficiency. Now here is McLemore's 1st year.

Freshman: 32.2 MPG - 15.9 PPG - 55.3% FGP - 42.0% 3PP - 5.2 RPG - 2.0 APG - 1.0 SPG

Its apparent that McLemore was a better player his freshman year than Oladipo was. So how much better do you think he might be two years from now? Because that's the true comparison. If Oladipo had come out his freshman year he probably would have been drafted in the second round, if at all. McLemore was drafted on what he had accomplished at Kansas, and to a large degree, his upside or potential. Oladipo's numbers his junior year are for the most part equal, and in some cases better than McLemore's. But the real difference is that he's more mature, and better prepared for the NBA.

By the way, one of the knocks on McLemore in college was that he was too passive, or not aggressive enough. I don't think that's a concern now, except that perhaps he's not quite sure how to be aggressive and get good results. When the game slows down for him, you'll start to see improvement across the board. Right now he's going at warp speed.
 
#33
This has probably already been answered, but Ben went to Wellston High, a school I'm very familiar with. I grew up two blocks from that school. Its located in one of the roughest, toughest neighborhoods in the St. Louis area. The school was shut down for various reasons, and he was forced to go to several different highschools, including Oakhill academy if I'm not mistaken. Because of some disagreement over his highschool records, of which there were many, he was ruled ineligible by the NCAA, and was therefore redshirted. At the time, he was ranked the 4th best highschool player in the nation by Rivals.

Having said all that, I'm actually surprised by all this attention directed to McLemore. How much attention, and or responsiblity was directed toward Kobe the year he was drafted by the Lakers? How many Laker fans held Kobe responsible for the results of the team? In a normal world, McLemore would be coming off the bench playing behind an experienced veteran and maybe playing between 12 to 15 minutes a game. Its only because this team
This has probably already been answered, but Ben went to Wellston High, a school I'm very familiar with. I grew up two blocks from that school. Its located in one of the roughest, toughest neighborhoods in the St. Louis area. The school was shut down for various reasons, and he was forced to go to several different highschools, including Oakhill academy if I'm not mistaken. Because of some disagreement over his highschool records, of which there were many, he was ruled ineligible by the NCAA, and was therefore redshirted. At the time, he was ranked the 4th best highschool player in the nation by Rivals.

Having said all that, I'm actually surprised by all this attention directed to McLemore. How much attention, and or responsiblity was directed toward Kobe the year he was drafted by the Lakers? How many Laker fans held Kobe responsible for the results of the team? In a normal world, McLemore would be coming off the bench playing behind an experienced veteran and maybe playing between 12 to 15 minutes a game. Its only because this team is so thin on talent, that he's drawing so much attention. It's not his damm fault the team sucks at times. You don't take a young pilot that still learning to fly and put him in the cockpit of a 737 full of people and expect everything to go perfectly.

I said from the get go that it was going to take two to three years for McLemore to develop. To pass judgement on him now, after some 50 plus games in his rookie year, is just plain stupid! Now if we're still having this conversation two years from now, then it has merit, and I'll be right there with everyone else. Don't get me wrong. I have no problem having a discussion about what he needs to improve on. Nor am I saying its a given that he'll be what everyone expects him to be. But any discussion along the lines of, what you see now is what you'll get, with no room for improvement, is ridiculous.

Edit: There has been mention of T. Robb and Jimmer in relationship to McLemore. Remember, T. Robb went to Kansas for 3 years, and Jimmer went to BYU for 4 years. Ben only had one year at Kansas. Point being, that a GM should have had a much better idea of what he was getting with the first two. The fact is, McLemore is a far more skilled offensive player than Robinson was after three years of college. His skills may not be adding up to results right now, but the skill set is there. He just needs to learn how to use it properly. That's entirely different than not having any offensive skills at all. Robinson had only one real skill, and that was rebounding. Jimmer needs no explaination.
Kobe showed flashes, he didn't come out looking bad unrelenting. Ben doesn't even compare well with a majority of 2013 draft wings playing consistent minutes. His athleticism isn't enough, I as a fan want a reason to believe in his future.
If we compared all the starting sg in the league with Ben in their rookie years that would be interesting
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#34
Kobe showed flashes, he didn't come out looking bad unrelenting. Ben doesn't even compare well with a majority of 2013 draft wings playing consistent minutes. His athleticism isn't enough, I as a fan want a reason to believe in his future.
If we compared all the starting sg in the league with Ben in their rookie years that would be interesting
Actually, I wasn't comparing Kobe's results to Ben's. I was comparing their situations. Kobe wasn't expected to be the savior of the franchise. He was a 18 year old kid out of highschool with great gene's. He was drafted on his potential. And if were honest, Kobe didn't look like Kobe until his third year. If he wasn't great his first year, it wasn't a big deal because he wasn't expected to be great. He wasn't a starter. Ben on the other hand came with great expectations because the fans are desperate for a winner. In my humble opinion, Ben has also shown flashes. Maybe not as many as we would like. There has been some games where he played pretty good defense. But no one is willing to acknowledge when he does something right. For some reason, when your the flavor of the month, your either great, or terrible. There never seems to be anything in between.
 
#35
Well, we watched one last year, "ready" college junior no less, who had .424 from the field as a front court player, and now after settling in he looks serviceable. Gerald Green, who seems to finally find his home in Phoenix, shot .330 on two-pointers in his third season.
Gerald Green was drafted in 2005 and is just now having a serviceable year. Thomas Robinson has had like 5 or 6 good games all season and only a couple last season. Obviously the verdict is still out on him but he should not be mentioned as a success at all at this point.

Obviously it's just my opinion, but I'd say the odds are less than 10% that Ben becomes a useful player. I would have traded him at the deadline if I could but I doubt he has much value other than just a throw in with IT or JT. The only bright side is that we could have gotten stuck with Otto Porter who was picked 3rd. He's shooting 29%.
 
#36
Gerald Green was drafted in 2005 and is just now having a serviceable year. Thomas Robinson has had like 5 or 6 good games all season and only a couple last season. Obviously the verdict is still out on him but he should not be mentioned as a success at all at this point.

Obviously it's just my opinion, but I'd say the odds are less than 10% that Ben becomes a useful player. I would have traded him at the deadline if I could but I doubt he has much value other than just a throw in with IT or JT. The only bright side is that we could have gotten stuck with Otto Porter who was picked 3rd. He's shooting 29%.
TRob is a 4th big on PO team, that is serviceable to me. Not even close to being worth 5th pick, but rather 25th. Green actually looked reasonably well in his 5th year, playing for the Nets. His teammate PJ Tucker is actually an even bigger example of low skill, excellent athleticism hard-working guy, who finally found his place. You asked, and got the answer: if Ben continues to dedicate himself, he will resemble an NBA player soon enough, but full development might last past his rookie contract.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#37
Gerald Green was drafted in 2005 and is just now having a serviceable year. Thomas Robinson has had like 5 or 6 good games all season and only a couple last season. Obviously the verdict is still out on him but he should not be mentioned as a success at all at this point.

Obviously it's just my opinion, but I'd say the odds are less than 10% that Ben becomes a useful player. I would have traded him at the deadline if I could but I doubt he has much value other than just a throw in with IT or JT. The only bright side is that we could have gotten stuck with Otto Porter who was picked 3rd. He's shooting 29%.
I have no idea where you come up with less than 10%, but I'll bet you anything you want, that in two years, you'll eat crow with that statement, and I will personally remind you of it. That's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen posted on this forum. Not surprising though, since we live in an instant gratification society. If it doesn't instantly please you, you just throw it away and get a new one. Thank god your not the GM of the Kings.
 
#38
I like to call this point in his career "development minutes".
Whether he flourishes or not is a premature assumption at this point. Mite take him till next year, maybe 5 years. It is just too early. Maybe a new arena will hype him up? :p
 
#39
IMO instead of focusing on the outliers of players who were as bad as Ben but eeked out a career the kings FO has to deal with the odds.
Personally as a fan if Ben maintains his play throughout this year I'd like that position to be reinforced this offseason. The team is trying to compete now
 
#40
IMO instead of focusing on the outliers of players who were as bad as Ben but eeked out a career the kings FO has to deal with the odds.
Personally as a fan if Ben maintains his play throughout this year I'd like that position to be reinforced this offseason. The team is trying to compete now
All PDA said so far is that they are "trying to move forward with youth and athleticism". If they indeed want to compete for PO, going after a player like Sefolosha to be a starter for now, move to the bench later makes a lot of sense.
 
#40
I have no idea where you come up with less than 10%, but I'll bet you anything you want, that in two years, you'll eat crow with that statement, and I will personally remind you of it. That's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen posted on this forum. Not surprising though, since we live in an instant gratification society. If it doesn't instantly please you, you just throw it away and get a new one. Thank god your not the GM of the Kings.
Like I said, the less than 10% is my opinion. I mean according to the guys here, Gerald Green looks to be about his ceiling. Try and find other players who were this bad in their rookie season while playing big minutes. I bet you can't find many that turned out to be good players or at least players worth waiting a few years to develop. It's not about instant gratification. I've been watching this stuff for 20 years so it's not like developing rookies is a new concept for me. You have to see something in the rookie to be developed and I don't know what it is that you guys are seeing. The fact that he can jump? The fact that he has a quick release? That's it. He is a shooting guard that can't handle the ball at all. He has YMCA ball handling skills. He seems like a really nice guy but he's more like a 2nd or 3rd option on a D-League team at this point.

I hope I'm wrong and I'll be glad to have you remind me of it when the time comes but I highly doubt that time will come anytime soon.
 
#41
All PDA said so far is that they are "trying to move forward with youth and athleticism". If they indeed want to compete for PO, going after a player like Sefolosha to be a starter for now, move to the bench later makes a lot of sense.
While that would be great there a couple of real issues here:

1. We are already over the cap and very close to luxury tax and that is before we re-sign IT so I am wondering where will the money come from? I know our owners are willing to spend but we just can't go out and sign Sefolosha as there are rules we have to play by. We could spend the MLE but I am pretty sure he would cost more than that to sign with the Kings.

2. Sefolosha is at the starge of his career where he wants to have a chance to win a championship so why would be sign with the Kings when he will be wanted by a lot of contenders out there, his current team included?

So while the front office took a highly athletic kid and are giving him every opportunity to show what he can do, he has flopped repeatedly. If we are brutally honest, he should have had a few stints in the D-League this year. In a more limited time and shorter leash, McCallum has looked better at this level than Ben and that is concerning.

We have a lot of holes on this team and SG should not have been one of them but it is actually the biggest hole right now and its not even close.
 
#42
All those points are valid, that's why PDA continues to be non-committal about fighting for PO next year.
There are two problems with Ben at this moment:
1. He really needs that shot back,
2. When defending the ball, he's pretty good already. Major problems come, when he helps to protect the paint. He over-commits every time, leaving his man wide open. Sometimes his speed is enough to close out guys with shaky shot or slow release, but many times these guys also move, so Ben needs a moment to find, where he should close out. Going under screen against very good shooters seem to be a recurring problem as well. This process looks the same now as it did in December. Malone surely must see it, if I can.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#43
All those points are valid, that's why PDA continues to be non-committal about fighting for PO next year.
No, that's not even in question if you think about it. You have to in order to keep Cuz, in order to keep Gay or attract FAs, and in order to have any kind of positive momentum heading into the opening of the new building. Just has to be. Certainly aren't going to sit around and hold it up for a kid who may be a bust. If he is he is. Its unfortunate, But you move on and don't look back long long before you start holding up the franchise waiting around for what?
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#44
Little thing I ran across while doing his grade tonight, highlighting the real disaster this is turning into for him:

Ben Month by Month Shooting %:
NOV: .393 FG%; .364 3pt%
DEC: .376 FG%; .351 3pt%
JAN: .351 FG%; .293 3pt%
FEB: .301 FG%; .235 3pt%

All headed the wrong way. Just a steady month by month deterioration. Two more to o to try to change that.
 
#45
They need to sit Ben and let him come off the bench. He has that clueless look in his eye most of the time, like he doesn't know where he is.
 
#46
I think I said Ben may sink here never to come back up for air.

Hard to see the future, but right now he's at the bottom of the lake.

Why you'd clear out every other decent guard for a guy getting worse every month, well, the only reason is to lose games. Playing youth is tanking. That's what we are doing.

If any guy made sense to find minutes for, it was Jimmer.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#47
Little thing I ran across while doing his grade tonight, highlighting the real disaster this is turning into for him:

Ben Month by Month Shooting %:
NOV: .393 FG%; .364 3pt%
DEC: .376 FG%; .351 3pt%
JAN: .351 FG%; .293 3pt%
FEB: .301 FG%; .235 3pt%

All headed the wrong way. Just a steady month by month deterioration. Two more to o to try to change that.
Reminds me of Sax not being able to throw the ball to first. This is bizarre. I also think it is bizarre that we get rid of MT and Jimmer. It just places more pressure on Ben and guess what, it doesn't seem like he can handle it. The argument always comes back that MT and Jimmer were not part of the future and I get it but if the FO thinks that Ben is part of the future, they need to keep a few guards around so he doesn't feel so much pressure. There was no imminent pressure to do anything with Jimmer or MT although I am happy we got Evans. I AM unhappy that these two moves may have hurt Ben.
 
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