Malone calls out team for no defense
- Thread starter VF21
- Start date
I was the grader for this one, and I'm going to be honest.
I didn't see what Malone saw out there.
Thornton got caught on a double screen which gave Lee an open shot at the 10 minute mark of the 1st quarter.
Then at the 5 minute mark of the 1st quarter he just died on a Gasol screen which freed up Lee for an easy look.
He played 8 minutes in the 1st quarter and didn't get a single catch-and-shoot opportunity. He had 1 single scoring opportunity in the 1st quarter when he took it upon himself to drive into the lane score.
He got 2 minutes of play in the 2nd quarter at the end, and didn't do anything or hurt us.
In the 3rd quarter the first note I have is at the 9:30 mark when he doubled Randolph and got the steal.
He then took his 2nd shot of a game, which was a selfish 3pt shot off his own dribble...(you know the type that our PG keeps taking). He missed that shot at the 8:40 mark, played 2 more minutes and was done for the game.
His man wasn't scoring on him, he was keeping close. I don't know if he was supposed to double hard on Randolph in the post all the time and he didn't want to leave Lee open in the corner...but really, Thornton didn't do a bad job on defense except for 2 plays.
And Ben....yikes. Ben was a whole lot worse than Thornton on Defense on this one. He gave the guy he was guarding (be it Miller or Lee) open shot after open shot due to his inability to keep close to his man.
Ben floated around the middle of the court and didn't do a good job getting back to his man, and he's lucky they missed a ton of open shots.
I didn't see what Malone saw out there.
Thornton got caught on a double screen which gave Lee an open shot at the 10 minute mark of the 1st quarter.
Then at the 5 minute mark of the 1st quarter he just died on a Gasol screen which freed up Lee for an easy look.
He played 8 minutes in the 1st quarter and didn't get a single catch-and-shoot opportunity. He had 1 single scoring opportunity in the 1st quarter when he took it upon himself to drive into the lane score.
He got 2 minutes of play in the 2nd quarter at the end, and didn't do anything or hurt us.
In the 3rd quarter the first note I have is at the 9:30 mark when he doubled Randolph and got the steal.
He then took his 2nd shot of a game, which was a selfish 3pt shot off his own dribble...(you know the type that our PG keeps taking). He missed that shot at the 8:40 mark, played 2 more minutes and was done for the game.
His man wasn't scoring on him, he was keeping close. I don't know if he was supposed to double hard on Randolph in the post all the time and he didn't want to leave Lee open in the corner...but really, Thornton didn't do a bad job on defense except for 2 plays.
And Ben....yikes. Ben was a whole lot worse than Thornton on Defense on this one. He gave the guy he was guarding (be it Miller or Lee) open shot after open shot due to his inability to keep close to his man.
Ben floated around the middle of the court and didn't do a good job getting back to his man, and he's lucky they missed a ton of open shots.
Thornton's D wasn't bad in this one, and it was a lot better than Bens.
I'm very confused with Malone being upset at Thornton.
The only thing that makes any sort of sense is if Thornton was supposed to be doubling hard on bigs in the post and he didn't do it much.
But Thornton did double hard once, and got a steal, while Ben never did that once, and found himself in defensive no-man's land all the time.
It's just really strange...and do you know what I think?
I think Thornton is about to get traded, so Malone can just call him out and it have little impact going forward...because Malone doesn't have a reason to be this upset at Thornton when he did better than Ben tonight on the defensive end.
I'm very confused with Malone being upset at Thornton.
The only thing that makes any sort of sense is if Thornton was supposed to be doubling hard on bigs in the post and he didn't do it much.
But Thornton did double hard once, and got a steal, while Ben never did that once, and found himself in defensive no-man's land all the time.
It's just really strange...and do you know what I think?
I think Thornton is about to get traded, so Malone can just call him out and it have little impact going forward...because Malone doesn't have a reason to be this upset at Thornton when he did better than Ben tonight on the defensive end.
I'm watching replay of game right now - don't ask me why. MT and IT have ZERO chemistry in backcourt on both ends. No help D on each others men. Since Lee is basic no factor I can't imagine why MT isn't drifting at least over to area where IT is being torched by Conley. Meanwhile as usual IT totally ignores MT coming off screens or even for a half court set pass just for helluva it.
Malone was just pissy that MT couldn't pick up IT's man as well. He might have expected more defensive help against Conley.. but that's not on MT. That would be on our bigs specifically when Conley attacks the rim. It would be idiotic for Thornton to even think about help defense against their bigs.. Marc Gasol is such a great passer out of the paint that it would have virtually gave memphis free points each time we doubled team. I'm really not too sure what Malone is pissed about. I'd be more pissed off at our front court. Gray is softer than a tissue of Kleenex. Acy can give you blocks, but even Hayes was a better on man defender. I'm still not too sure what position D-Will is supposed to be playing. JT is the only one who has been playing good. Landry is still coming off of his injury, but he looked ok today defense wise.
1. The forum is too obsessed with IT hatred. Let it go. Yes, I know the pizza ads and G&J are annoying as hell, but not everything wrong with the team can come back to him. LET IT GO.
2. I'll trust Uncia's gametape on this. It could be that the comment by Malone addressed Thornton because the preceding question asked about Thornton. I didn't see the interview, so *shrug*.
3. Truth is there's not a lot of decent defenders on the team and that does matter.
4. Lack of team offense leads to mental lapses on defense. I am not sure you can fight against this human behavior as a coach.
5. While not consistent every night, team defense was getting better before Gay & Cousins got hurt. Leadership juggling could be an issue with both of them out for a few games.
2. I'll trust Uncia's gametape on this. It could be that the comment by Malone addressed Thornton because the preceding question asked about Thornton. I didn't see the interview, so *shrug*.
3. Truth is there's not a lot of decent defenders on the team and that does matter.
4. Lack of team offense leads to mental lapses on defense. I am not sure you can fight against this human behavior as a coach.
5. While not consistent every night, team defense was getting better before Gay & Cousins got hurt. Leadership juggling could be an issue with both of them out for a few games.
See, this is where you are wrong.
In the 5 previous games lee has scored:
17 (7-14)
19 (6-8)
19 (6-9)
15 (5-9)
12 (5-9)
Lee has been a huge help to the Memphis offense while Allen has been out due to his ability to hit the open shot. If Thornton helps on Conley, then Conley finds Lee for easy jumpers, and as you can see...Lee has been shooting very high percentages over the last 5 games.
Thornton can't just leave Lee because Conley will get him the ball.
How many times have we, as Kings fans, been frustrated for giving up the easy open corner 3?
It shouldn't be Thornton's job to check Conley, that should fall to the bigs in the interior.
And....Ben didn't help IT on Conley any more than Thornton did....so help on IT's man is a non-issue when it comes to Malone calling out Thornton.
Lee only scored 4 points in this one, and both jumpers came on Thornton's watch. Lee had 2 other shots which were open jumpers while Ben was out there, he just failed to hit. And Miller, Miller had a lot more open jump shot opportunities while Ben was guarding him.
In the 5 previous games lee has scored:
17 (7-14)
19 (6-8)
19 (6-9)
15 (5-9)
12 (5-9)
Lee has been a huge help to the Memphis offense while Allen has been out due to his ability to hit the open shot. If Thornton helps on Conley, then Conley finds Lee for easy jumpers, and as you can see...Lee has been shooting very high percentages over the last 5 games.
Thornton can't just leave Lee because Conley will get him the ball.
How many times have we, as Kings fans, been frustrated for giving up the easy open corner 3?
It shouldn't be Thornton's job to check Conley, that should fall to the bigs in the interior.
And....Ben didn't help IT on Conley any more than Thornton did....so help on IT's man is a non-issue when it comes to Malone calling out Thornton.
Lee only scored 4 points in this one, and both jumpers came on Thornton's watch. Lee had 2 other shots which were open jumpers while Ben was out there, he just failed to hit. And Miller, Miller had a lot more open jump shot opportunities while Ben was guarding him.
Last edited:
But what I'm seeing right now is MT not anywhere near Conley to play passing lane or any sort of help D. Now if Lee where torching him (mildly like these previous games might reflect) could understand why MT would stay glued to Lee for 4 Qs - but Memphis SGs are mostly invisible in this one including sub Calathes. Like I said, no chemistry between IT and MT on both ends - zero.
Tonight:
Lee - 25 mins 4pts on 2-4 with no other stats of note. Calathes - 14 mins 4 pts with no other stats of note except 4 assists.
And then there's Thornton's line; 17 mins 2pts on 1-2 with no other stats of note. MT scored in 1st Q and never touched the ball again it seemed thanks to IT the be all end all Kings leader PG.
Tonight:
Lee - 25 mins 4pts on 2-4 with no other stats of note. Calathes - 14 mins 4 pts with no other stats of note except 4 assists.
And then there's Thornton's line; 17 mins 2pts on 1-2 with no other stats of note. MT scored in 1st Q and never touched the ball again it seemed thanks to IT the be all end all Kings leader PG.
Last edited:
Reading between the lines, it seems to me that perhaps Marcus said something about not getting touches, or gave up or didn't get back a couple of times due to disappointment with not getting the ball. It's that kind of me first attitude, and then failure to play defense, that probably pissed Malone off the most. I think the ONLY other player likely to be called out for that on the team is IT, but perhaps he hasn't been so emphatic and openly expressive about it... plus, he still DOES get his shots since he's "controlling" the offense. 
I think Thornton has every right to be upset in this one.
He got zero scoring opportunities from teammates in this one. He got 2 whole shots. Both off his own dribble...and the thing is...when Rudy and Cousins were out he got 55 field-goal attempts in 3 games.
So to go from that, to being completely frozen out and getting zero opportunities from IT had to have been frustrating, especially since IT got up 21 shots.
I tend to agree with you that it's more than possible that Thornton said something either to Malone or that Malone overheard. Because out on the floor Thornton didn't do a poor job on defense, which I've already outlined. And even if you could consider Ben's effort as being better, Marcus was actually more effective in this one. So yeah, I could see Thornton saying something and then Malone letting him know his displeasure by not giving him any more minutes.
He got zero scoring opportunities from teammates in this one. He got 2 whole shots. Both off his own dribble...and the thing is...when Rudy and Cousins were out he got 55 field-goal attempts in 3 games.
So to go from that, to being completely frozen out and getting zero opportunities from IT had to have been frustrating, especially since IT got up 21 shots.
I tend to agree with you that it's more than possible that Thornton said something either to Malone or that Malone overheard. Because out on the floor Thornton didn't do a poor job on defense, which I've already outlined. And even if you could consider Ben's effort as being better, Marcus was actually more effective in this one. So yeah, I could see Thornton saying something and then Malone letting him know his displeasure by not giving him any more minutes.
If Malone is true to his word, he won't be able to field 5 players let alone develop some sort of rotation.
This team does not have one above average defender on the roster so what the hell can you expect. PDA has traded every single player that could or did play good defense and replaced them with average to poor defenders which also like to score. It ain't going to work, ever!
This team does not have one above average defender on the roster so what the hell can you expect. PDA has traded every single player that could or did play good defense and replaced them with average to poor defenders which also like to score. It ain't going to work, ever!
I've been busy for a few weeks and not able to watch most of the games, but I'm keeping an eye on general goings on with snippets of games here and there and trying to follow discussions on this site when I can. So I'm maybe a step removed observing things from further away right now. Here's more or less what I've seen going on here--
In Malone's comments I do think he meant to call out Marcus Thornton but I don't think his comments were necessarily focused on today's game. It's something that's needed to be said for a while now. Marcus was able to come in as the starter and then his role offensively increased dramatically once our primary scorers went out with injuries. Subsequently his energy level went way up as did his shot attempts and general importance in the offense. During this stretch we've given up 125 points to Denver, 106 to Utah (11 over their scoring average), and 99 to Memphis on 55% shooting. Without Rudy and DeMarcus (and IT too for half of the Utah game), we're still not losing because of a lack of offense. There have been some comments made to the effect that Thornton has woken up and is finally playing like himself but I don't think he's doing anything differently than he has all season. When he comes into a game he's all about getting his shots and he'll go through the motions as far as playing defense, grabbing a couple boards, and occasionally moving the ball but there's no question where his focus lies and it's 100% the opposite of where it should be on a winning basketball team.
But returning to Malone's comments today, in the context of everything else he's saying I hear the emphasis not on Thornton's name but rather what precedes it. Coach says "it's not just Marcus Thornton". And I think what he's saying isn't that Thornton has been especially bad on the defensive end, I think what he's saying and what these players as a whole are not getting, is that defense isn't something you turn to at the end of a quarter or when you're behind by 20 and need to make a run to catch up. Ideally you're putting in hard effort all night on the defensive end and that takes a full commitment from everybody every time they're on the court. It's never someone else's responsibility, it's always your responsibility to cover your man, rotate hard off the screens, and close out hard on shooters. And that really does mean hard. A lazy half-hearted rotation or close-out isn't much better than not doing it at all. This is the NBA. Offensively these guys will eat you alive if you give them a half a step on you consistently. You can't 'play up' when you're getting shots and then coast when you're not. It shouldn't ever matter if you're getting 1 shot a game or 20, the defensive effort should always be there regardless because that's the identity of the team. If you don't have that minimum level of effort every night than you have nothing.
Now I've been unhappy with the offense this season not because what we're doing isn't effective, but because a team requires everyone to come together as equals, and work together as a unit. A great team isn't 5 individuals on the floor together at a time it's one personality, one shared strategy that everyone buys into. When 2 or 3 guys are dominating not just the shots but also the preceding 10-15 seconds of play which leads to those shots then the team is not maximizing it's ability as a unit. It's really pretty simple -- if you space the floor properly and set solid picks then guys are going to get open for shots. Whoever has the ball needs to be aware of what everyone else is doing and be willing to swing the ball in order to create those shots. If you come up the floor already thinking "this is my possession" or come into the game with a number of attempts in mind than you're not thinking about the team. And this reinforces what happens on the defensive side of the floor. We have more than enough talent to compete in this league. We're not the least talented team in the Western conference. But on both ends these players are not showing enough trust in their teammates and enough commitment to the team game to consistently compete with the teams that do.
A lot of the comments here are directed at individual players and we could argue that this applies on varying levels to all of them; some more or less than others. But the point is it's not just Marcus Thornton and it's not just Isaiah Thomas and it's not just Ben McLemore and it's not just DeMarcus Cousins and it's not just Derrick Williams and it's not just Jimmer Fredette and so on for every player on the roster. All of them have had moments of solid defensive effort and moments of offensive stardom (okay maybe not all of them ) But that's just not enough. They need to bring that effort all the time and they need to be willing to do whatever it takes on any given night to outplay the opponent. Some of these guys I've watched for years and I just don't know that they have that level of commitment in them. And that I think is what is frustrating Coach Malone. He's coached guys in the league who do have that level of commitment, and those are the guys that know how to win. As a coach he's trying to convey that to the team and while they might nod their heads in agreement, it's clear from their play that they still haven't got the message.
In Malone's comments I do think he meant to call out Marcus Thornton but I don't think his comments were necessarily focused on today's game. It's something that's needed to be said for a while now. Marcus was able to come in as the starter and then his role offensively increased dramatically once our primary scorers went out with injuries. Subsequently his energy level went way up as did his shot attempts and general importance in the offense. During this stretch we've given up 125 points to Denver, 106 to Utah (11 over their scoring average), and 99 to Memphis on 55% shooting. Without Rudy and DeMarcus (and IT too for half of the Utah game), we're still not losing because of a lack of offense. There have been some comments made to the effect that Thornton has woken up and is finally playing like himself but I don't think he's doing anything differently than he has all season. When he comes into a game he's all about getting his shots and he'll go through the motions as far as playing defense, grabbing a couple boards, and occasionally moving the ball but there's no question where his focus lies and it's 100% the opposite of where it should be on a winning basketball team.
But returning to Malone's comments today, in the context of everything else he's saying I hear the emphasis not on Thornton's name but rather what precedes it. Coach says "it's not just Marcus Thornton". And I think what he's saying isn't that Thornton has been especially bad on the defensive end, I think what he's saying and what these players as a whole are not getting, is that defense isn't something you turn to at the end of a quarter or when you're behind by 20 and need to make a run to catch up. Ideally you're putting in hard effort all night on the defensive end and that takes a full commitment from everybody every time they're on the court. It's never someone else's responsibility, it's always your responsibility to cover your man, rotate hard off the screens, and close out hard on shooters. And that really does mean hard. A lazy half-hearted rotation or close-out isn't much better than not doing it at all. This is the NBA. Offensively these guys will eat you alive if you give them a half a step on you consistently. You can't 'play up' when you're getting shots and then coast when you're not. It shouldn't ever matter if you're getting 1 shot a game or 20, the defensive effort should always be there regardless because that's the identity of the team. If you don't have that minimum level of effort every night than you have nothing.
Now I've been unhappy with the offense this season not because what we're doing isn't effective, but because a team requires everyone to come together as equals, and work together as a unit. A great team isn't 5 individuals on the floor together at a time it's one personality, one shared strategy that everyone buys into. When 2 or 3 guys are dominating not just the shots but also the preceding 10-15 seconds of play which leads to those shots then the team is not maximizing it's ability as a unit. It's really pretty simple -- if you space the floor properly and set solid picks then guys are going to get open for shots. Whoever has the ball needs to be aware of what everyone else is doing and be willing to swing the ball in order to create those shots. If you come up the floor already thinking "this is my possession" or come into the game with a number of attempts in mind than you're not thinking about the team. And this reinforces what happens on the defensive side of the floor. We have more than enough talent to compete in this league. We're not the least talented team in the Western conference. But on both ends these players are not showing enough trust in their teammates and enough commitment to the team game to consistently compete with the teams that do.
A lot of the comments here are directed at individual players and we could argue that this applies on varying levels to all of them; some more or less than others. But the point is it's not just Marcus Thornton and it's not just Isaiah Thomas and it's not just Ben McLemore and it's not just DeMarcus Cousins and it's not just Derrick Williams and it's not just Jimmer Fredette and so on for every player on the roster. All of them have had moments of solid defensive effort and moments of offensive stardom (okay maybe not all of them
) But that's just not enough. They need to bring that effort all the time and they need to be willing to do whatever it takes on any given night to outplay the opponent. Some of these guys I've watched for years and I just don't know that they have that level of commitment in them. And that I think is what is frustrating Coach Malone. He's coached guys in the league who do have that level of commitment, and those are the guys that know how to win. As a coach he's trying to convey that to the team and while they might nod their heads in agreement, it's clear from their play that they still haven't got the message.
Meh, i dont think theres anything to see here. We haven't played consistently good defense all year. I thought all of us were already in agreement that we need some good defensive personnel. There are two spots in the starting lineup that I expect will be changed by the trade deadline next season. Good defensive point guard and shotblocking pf. Makes perfect sense.
So Malone isn't going to play anyone?
These threats are so empty. That is why I don't like them.
The only possible 'defense for offense' move we could make with this current roster is McCallum for Fredette. That's it. There is no one he isn't currently playing that will come in and be an improvement on the defensive side. It's a roster isssue. There is no fix here.
These threats are so empty. That is why I don't like them.
The only possible 'defense for offense' move we could make with this current roster is McCallum for Fredette. That's it. There is no one he isn't currently playing that will come in and be an improvement on the defensive side. It's a roster isssue. There is no fix here.
Malone mentioned EVERYBODY in his comments. EVERYBODY.
If he wants to carry out his threat, I'd have no problem with it.
As far as IT is concerned, here are his minutes since 1/15
41.5
38.5
39
38.5
39
43
36
25(sick)
38.5
Here are Tony Parker's minutes since 1/15:
33.5
35
38
27
24
32.5
33.5
It's obvious to me that IT is being played far too many minutes. His production in the last four games or so speaks to that fact. If Malone wants to reduce his minutes to 30 a game, yahoo! Let's do it!
If he wants to carry out his threat, I'd have no problem with it.
As far as IT is concerned, here are his minutes since 1/15
41.5
38.5
39
38.5
39
43
36
25(sick)
38.5
Here are Tony Parker's minutes since 1/15:
33.5
35
38
27
24
32.5
33.5
It's obvious to me that IT is being played far too many minutes. His production in the last four games or so speaks to that fact. If Malone wants to reduce his minutes to 30 a game, yahoo! Let's do it!