[Grades] Grades v. Thunder 1/19/2014

[whozit]

I think people hate IT because of his height and what he's capable of. I bet most of the haters are taller than IT and just envy him.. Last time I checked it takes a team effort to win games.. Last game wasn't a team effort...

Here's a whole thread on height prejudice and IT. What you might find is most like him but rather him be in a different role. Hate is a very strong word.

http://kingsfans.com/threads/basketball-height-prejudice-with-poll.55016/

 

[treach1976]

This was a tough game for IT's biggest fans to swallow. I think they imagined there would be a bit more persecution against IT than he actually received. The few "negative" posts that were quoted were hardly bashing IT... at least to the level they would have hoped. Or perhaps it was the absence of the heaps of praise they were expecting after IT's career high.... but good luck finding that for anybody after a big loss (level of competition notwithstanding).

There is no story here... move on.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Here's a whole thread on height prejudice and IT. What you might find is most like him but rather him be in a different role. Hate is a very strong word.

I don't think that "hate" is a strong word at all, at least not within the context of sports and entertainment. Within the context of sports and entertainment, I think that "hate" is a weak word, used by weak-minded people, who have a problem accepting that people don't see their "guy" the same way they do. "How can anyone have a problem with how Thomas plays, or his role on the team? They must be haters!"

 

[Spike]

I'll stand by my post. One of the easiest ways to defend the Kings (and I've said this since last year) is to let IT "get his".

As a scorer, Isaiah doesn't impact the defensive plan of the other team vs. Cousins (and now Gay) creating defense to have to shift around and compensate. Seems like OKC was willing to let IT just score. I hardly see how that makes me a hater.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Which point guard right now realistically can replace IT..??

lol

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Honestly I have never seen a group of fans fight among them selves as much as we do...sure we haven't had a good team in a long time and everyone is frustrated but as of right now we have a starting five to build around. The season is already lost.. Why bring other players in and start all over again? Next season will speak volumes to the type of coach we have..we certain have enough to be above .500 next season. I think we have a center that can go down as one of the best ever and a 5,9 point that can change one o the game biggest stereotype.

i think when you're 5'9 you HAVE to be able to score. what else would make you special? lock down 5'9 defender? elite passing skills at 5'9? a 5'9 rebounding machine?

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Here are some of the posts that instantly wanted to spin this into an "IT gunned so we lost" thread. Also, yes if you go to other Kings sites, the majority appreciate what IT brings and don't try to blame him for everything that is wrong with this team. Really this is the only place where I see an overwhelming negative vibe about IT, which I find a little bizarre.

This is a guess, but I see most of the IT detractors are the ones that thought Tyreke was the next coming of Dwyane Wade, maybe some hard feelings that IT took Reke's role? Whatever it is, if you analyze "what is wrong with this team? It certainly isn't Isaiah Thomas.

We need defensive players at the SG and PF position. One of the reasons IT has looked bad on defense is because he knows he doesn't have much help behind him if he gets beat off the dribble. He has to sag off more than he should at times(guys like Curry and Lillard give him problems, but really who can guard those players 1 on 1? Let alone when they start running pick and rolls). IT has the tools to at least be one of those "pest" little defenders that get right on you, but we need a guy that will protect the paint when our guards get beat. Its very different defending on the perimeter knowing you have Ibaka and Perkins behind you, than having Cousins and JT(who has looked better of late rotation wise, but not a shotblocker).

Our problem is our roleplayers, we have a undersized volume scorer starting at SG(who can't buy a basket this year), and a solid garbage duty PF who isn't a shotblocker. If you can find a defensive spot shooting PG to start the game, and bring IT as a 6th man, I would be all for it, but as of now IT needs to be playing 38-40 min for this team to compete, along with our other big guys showing up.(coach has realized this too).

seriously?

 

[Big Cuz 15]

I'll stand by my post. One of the easiest ways to defend the Kings (and I've said this since last year) is to let IT "get his".

As a scorer, Isaiah doesn't impact the defensive plan of the other team vs. Cousins (and now Gay) creating defense to have to shift around and compensate. Seems like OKC was willing to let IT just score. I hardly see how that makes me a hater.

it's a great strategy. give him free reign for a while then shut him down at the end with sefolosha. brilliant

 

[jcwkings]

seriously?

who else do you want running the point? Jimmer? He's proven time after time that he cant handle ball pressure, he's a great shooter, and should only be used a such. Until we get a legit backup, Isaiah at the point for extended minutes is the way the 2013-14 kings have to go. Andre Miller would be a nice short term solution as either the 22-24 min starter or commander of the second unit. Ray McCallum has potential, but theres a reason Malone hasn't played him any meaningful minutes this season. Maybe when the season is winding down, he gets some extended time out there to get his feet wet.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

Cousins has really looked sloppy on offense lately. throwing up super lazy crap at the rim

 

[Hadlowe]

who else do you want running the point? Jimmer? He's proven time after time that he cant handle ball pressure, he's a great shooter, and should only be used a such. Until we get a legit backup, Isaiah at the point for extended minutes is the way the 2013-14 kings have to go. Andre Miller would be a nice short term solution as either the 22-24 min starter or commander of the second unit. Ray McCallum has potential, but theres a reason Malone hasn't played him any meaningful minutes this season. Maybe when the season is winding down, he gets some extended time out there to get his feet wet.

Jimmer did well for a 4-5 game stretch there (the same stretch we were winning games, btw) just running the second unit. He was coming in at predictable times, playing with the same teammates, finding them and knocking down shots. After the Pacers debacle, Malone switched back to the "IT plays 40+minutes" gameplan and we started losing, and especially collapsing late. You saying that Jimmer was ineffective at the point doesn't track with the stretch of good basketball the team played recently. If anything, I think IT needs more frequent breathers to keep up his high energy level.

 

[Tetsujin]

I think people hate IT because of his height and what he's capable of. I bet most of the haters are taller than IT and just envy him.. Last time I checked it takes a team effort to win games.. Last game wasn't a team effort...

Yes because I spend most of my time pining for a time when I was shorter than Isaiah Thomas. You caught me.

 

[Entity]

The rest of the team never got a chance for it to be a team effort

 

[jcwkings]

Jimmer did well for a 4-5 game stretch there (the same stretch we were winning games, btw) just running the second unit. He was coming in at predictable times, playing with the same teammates, finding them and knocking down shots. After the Pacers debacle, Malone switched back to the "IT plays 40+minutes" gameplan and we started losing, and especially collapsing late. You saying that Jimmer was ineffective at the point doesn't track with the stretch of good basketball the team played recently. If anything, I think IT needs more frequent breathers to keep up his high energy level.

Well we beat the Cavs, Magic, Minnesota, a good win vs Portland. Playing Indiana, Memphis and OKC on the road is much different than a home game vs the Magic. The good thing is that we handled the teams we should, stayed with Memphis and predictably were run out by the Pacers and OKC, thats about what you can expect from this team. Home losses to teams like the Sixers and Bobcats is what we need to cut out(although it does get us ping pong balls). Jimmer is a great shooter who can handle the ball, but I would prefer he play next to a better ball handler with the ability to catch and shoot or make a play off the dribble. I want IT to get more rest too, but it seems Malone doesn't trust Jimmer to play him his big stints against the top teams.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

I bet most of the haters are taller than IT and just envy him

Why would people taller than him envy him?

 

[LPKingsFan]

UNLESS... Malone started playing IT more because he was instructed by the FO to feature him to increase his trade value!!

 

[Tetsujin]

UNLESS... Malone started playing IT more because he was instructed by the FO to feature him to increase his trade value!!

No, that's what he's obviously doing with Demarcus.

 

[SacKings2002NBAChampions]

Malone's comments after the game were interesting, saying that the Kings' locker room was very low energy at half time, even though they were only down by 5. He said it was like they were down by 20 (as if the game were hopelessly out of reach). Malone has made similar comments in the past. I (and he) don't know what to make of that.

I think Malone needs to chill out a bit on releasing locker room drama to the press. I think after a while the players will turn on him. I get that Malone is scared of constantly losing because that means his job is on the line but lately he has been putting a lot of blame on the players (rightfully so but you just don't do that stuff as a head coach). As a head coach, you blame yourself for every loss in the press conference and move on. The FO will decide whether or not he was doing his job properly or not.

 

[ParniValjak]

I have said, and will continue to say, that the smart move for Gay is to opt out, and go for the long-term deal. Gay's career numbers indicate that what he's doing now is a lot more likely to be the aberration than what he did in Toronto. The numbers he put up in fifty-one games there are much closer to his career averages. If he can turn what he's doing now into a six or seven-year deal for a guaranteed eight-figures per, he'd be much better off, financially speaking, doing that than opting in, and taking the chance that he can't duplicate this performance.

I keep reading this and find myself disagreement in the number of years, because unless I have missed something, the maximum number of years we can extend him for is 4 unless we anoit him as the "franchise player" in which case he gets a maximum money contract and an extra 5th year.

One of the big arguments in the lockout was the length of the contract and that was brought down to 4 years unless a player gets a "franchise" tag in which case they can get 5th year. A team is only allowed to have 1 nominated "franchise" player. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that we cannot offer 6 or 7 year deal even if we wanted to.

EDIT: Just saw someone else point out the number of years but I think the franchise tag still applies. 5 year for franchise tag player and in that case they get the MAX contract both in terms of dollars and length.

 

[KingMilz]

I'll stand by my post. One of the easiest ways to defend the Kings (and I've said this since last year) is to let IT "get his".

As a scorer, Isaiah doesn't impact the defensive plan of the other team vs. Cousins (and now Gay) creating defense to have to shift around and compensate. Seems like OKC was willing to let IT just score. I hardly see how that makes me a hater.

If that's what teams are doing than Gay/Cousins have to adjust and play more without the ball and in Cousins case actually go after offensive boards and after setting a screen go to rim. Also becoming better playmakers as well if teams are going to "let" IT have has. Good players can do more things than just score.

Isaiah Thomas is actually fairly viable as a 3rd option who can step in and be the 1st/2nd option when teams do that. The other 3rd options currently on the elite teams of the NBA are Ibaka, JJ Redick/Crawford, David West/Sir Lance, Bosh, Wes/Batum, Klay Thompson and Parsons. From that list very few are better scorers/effective than IT only Bosh/Klay you would say for sure are better at putting the ball in the hoop. There is a lot of teams that would not mind having Thomas as a 3rd option if anything that's a luxury we have.

 

[SacKings2002NBAChampions]

Did this actually happen?

"OKLAHOMA CITY -- The NBA announced Sunday Kings head coach Michael Malone has been fined $25,000 for verbal abuse of a game official and not proceeding directly to his locker room following the completion of the game following Friday's 91-90 loss atMemphis.

Malone was furious over a late call by official Marc Davis with 1.9 seconds to play. Rather than call a foul on Memphis forward Tayshaun Prince, Davis called for a jump ball."

 

[Bricklayer]

Did this actually happen?

"OKLAHOMA CITY -- The NBA announced Sunday Kings head coach Michael Malone has been fined $25,000 for verbal abuse of a game official and not proceeding directly to his locker room following the completion of the game following Friday's 91-90 loss atMemphis.

Malone was furious over a late call by official Marc Davis with 1.9 seconds to play. Rather than call a foul on Memphis forward Tayshaun Prince, Davis called for a jump ball."

yes, after the Memphis game though, not OKC.

 

[Kingster]

I'll stand by my post. One of the easiest ways to defend the Kings (and I've said this since last year) is to let IT "get his".

As a scorer, Isaiah doesn't impact the defensive plan of the other team vs. Cousins (and now Gay) creating defense to have to shift around and compensate. Seems like OKC was willing to let IT just score. I hardly see how that makes me a hater.

Did you see a lot of double teaming (Gay) with IT's defender? I didn't. So how exactly did they "let" IT "get his"? When he hit that 35-footer, is that an example of letting him "get his"? I'd like some examples, please. Also, when OKC put Sefalosha on IT in the second half, was that not an example of "creating defense to have to shift around and compensate"? If not, then what? I just wish the Kings would have more players of IT's talent on this team, and other teams could let them get theirs all night long.

 

[mac]

If that's what teams are doing than Gay/Cousins have to adjust and play more without the ball and in Cousins case actually go after offensive boards and after setting a screen go to rim. Also becoming better playmakers as well if teams are going to "let" IT have has. Good players can do more things than just score.

Isaiah Thomas is actually fairly viable as a 3rd option who can step in and be the 1st/2nd option when teams do that. The other 3rd options currently on the elite teams of the NBA are Ibaka, JJ Redick/Crawford, David West/Sir Lance, Bosh, Wes/Batum, Klay Thompson and Parsons. From that list very few are better scorers/effective than IT only Bosh/Klay you would say for sure are better at putting the ball in the hoop. There is a lot of teams that would not mind having Thomas as a 3rd option if anything that's a luxury we have.

The whole problem is that Thomas doesn't play like a 3rd option. It's equivalent to saying you'd love to have Kobe join the Miami Heat and be their 4th option. There are few better scorers than Kobe! So that must be a brilliant idea isn't it?

 

[whozit]

I don't think that "hate" is a strong word at all, at least not within the context of sports and entertainment. Within the context of sports and entertainment, I think that "hate" is a weak word, used by weak-minded people, who have a problem accepting that people don't see their "guy" the same way they do. "How can anyone have a problem with how Thomas plays, or his role on the team? They must be haters!"

I have no argument from the context your using. I personally think the term itself is still a strong word despite its overuse and despite who says it.

I will save my hate for entities like the Lakers who actually deserve it ......... so I guess that makes me weak-minded

 

[Kingster]

Lebron/Durant and especially Kobe go up over 2-3 defenders all the time, especially when within 5ft of the hoop.

What are we even talking about here? Every All Star level player forces it at times over multiple defenders. A reason for that is an All Star level player sees more attention and double/triple coverage than role players. Did Cuz force it at times? Yes. Is he good enough to still make plays and/or score over double/triple coverage? Yes. Not tonight though. And Isaiah had a good shooting night, but Cuz was also likely forcing it because a) he wasn't getting the ball where he operates best which is a recent and worrying problem the last 2-3 weeks and b) he knew we wouldn't win without him getting going so as any player in his position would do, he tried to force himself into the game and get going.

BTW, it wouldn't be all that uncommon for the 1st and 2nd options on a team to force it a bit and try to get going when the 3rd option is busy putting up 38 points. And that's a problem, the guy who's responsible for setting up our top two players once again led the team in FGA's when his main responsibility is getting Cuz/Rudy going. And yes IT was hot at times, but he also took a number of poor shots, some of which he hit.

The only excuse for "forcing it" is if the 24-second clock is running down and there are no other options. I don't care if you're IT, Cousins, or Michael Jordan, the same holds. Cousins and Gay were forcing it. The success of the team is going to depend upon them (and everybody else) not forcing it. Otherwise, you're going to see a lot more of the OKC experience. Rest assured, NO and every other team the Kings play is going to be looking at the film and attempt to duplicate some of the same schemes as OKC, to prey on the Kings' weaknesses - iso ball and forcing it.

 

[Padrino]

The only excuse for "forcing it" is if the 24-second clock is running down and there are no other options. I don't care if you're IT, Cousins, or Michael Jordan, the same holds. Cousins and Gay were forcing it. The success of the team is going to depend upon them (and everybody else) not forcing it. Otherwise, you're going to see a lot more of the OKC experience. Rest assured, NO and every other team the Kings play is going to be looking at the film and attempt to duplicate some of the same schemes as OKC, to prey on the Kings' weaknesses - iso ball and forcing it.

here's the thing: "forcing it" comes, in part, from poor hierarchical structure. if #1 and #2 are being leapfrogged by the napolean complex of #3 in the pecking order, then you're absolutely going to see #1 and #2 "force it" considerably more than you would if #3, a point guard, made it his job to get #1 and #2 going. is this wrong? shouldn't teams just play to the hot hand? certainly. but that's not nba reality. demarcus cousins is being paid to be the kings' franchise cornerstone, and the new regime took on the burden of rudy gay's overblown salary so that he could be a clear-cut second option...

isaiah thomas is and always will be the odd man out in such an equation. that said, i will continue to pound the drum that throwing three ball dominant 20 ppg scorers, who aren't particularly gifted defenders, into the starting lineup together will never result in consistent chemistry. it's fantasy basketball. it's nba 2k14. it doesn't work in actuality. if IT was more like steve nash, a very gifted scorer who routinely sacrificed his own offense to make his teammates better, then i'd give it some chance of success. but that's not exactly IT's prerogative, is it? it's why he's much more suited to lead the second unit, where his not-insignificant talent as a me-first combo guard would be maximized...

 

[Gilles]

I keep reading this and find myself disagreement in the number of years, because unless I have missed something, the maximum number of years we can extend him for is 4 unless we anoit him as the "franchise player" in which case he gets a maximum money contract and an extra 5th year.
One of the big arguments in the lockout was the length of the contract and that was brought down to 4 years unless a player gets a "franchise" tag in which case they can get 5th year. A team is only allowed to have 1 nominated "franchise" player. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that we cannot offer 6 or 7 year deal even if we wanted to.
EDIT: Just saw someone else point out the number of years but I think the franchise tag still applies. 5 year for franchise tag player and in that case they get the MAX contract both in terms of dollars and length.

As always, when in doubt about CBA, go to http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25. Larry Bird exception allows for 5-year contracts with 7.5% raises.
The whole Designated Player tag is only applicable in extensions: for example, in October Kings could've given 5 year contract to Cousins only if they made him a Designated Player. The contract with this tag could be for any money actually, but obviously makes sense only for "max" players. When player is being re-signed after his contract ran out, 5 years length available with no exceptions.

 

[pshn80]

,

here's the thing: "forcing it" comes, in part, from poor hierarchical structure. if #1 and #2 are being leapfrogged by the napolean complex of #3 in the pecking order, then you're absolutely going to see #1 and #2 "force it" considerably more than you would if #3, a point guard, made it his job to get #1 and #2 going. is this wrong? shouldn't teams just play to the hot hand? certainly. but that's not nba reality. demarcus cousins is being paid to be the kings' franchise cornerstone, and the new regime took on the burden of rudy gay's overblown salary so that he could be a clear-cut second option...

isaiah thomas is and always will be the odd man out in such an equation. that said, i will continue to pound the drum that throwing three ball dominant 20 ppg scorers, who aren't particularly gifted defenders, into the starting lineup together will never result in consistent chemistry. it's fantasy basketball. it's nba 2k14. it doesn't work in actuality. if IT was more like steve nash, a very gifted scorer who routinely sacrificed his own offense to make his teammates better, then i'd give it some chance of success. but that's not exactly IT's prerogative, is it? it's why he's much more suited to lead the second unit, where his not-insignificant talent as a me-first combo guard would be maximized...

I believe you have the right gist here. What I would add is that none of the three principals have team-play talents at the forefront of their skills or mind-set. The very thing/weakness that we attribute to IT is at least equally possessed by the other two. It's a combo of players and and their talents that doesn't work very well. Replacing the least expensive of the three might help but might not be a net gain in teamwork. I don't know the answer. There is the probability that continued play together will improve the situation but how much and when and can we and the owner stand it for long? I believe all three are tough cases, not easily cured.

 

[ParniValjak]

As always, when in doubt about CBA, go to http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25. Larry Bird exception allows for 5-year contracts with 7.5% raises.
The whole Designated Player tag is only applicable in extensions: for example, in October Kings could've given 5 year contract to Cousins only if they made him a Designated Player. The contract with this tag could be for any money actually, but obviously makes sense only for "max" players. When player is being re-signed after his contract ran out, 5 years length available with no exceptions.

I stand corrected! Nice find!