[Grades] Grades v. Thunder 1/19/2014
- Thread starter Bricklayer
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The point is you should NEVER dribble into 3 defenders or a double team(which Cousins did tonight multiple times) , you never see/saw Lebron, Kobe, Jordan(or Durant tonight), they have the awareness to recognize when the double team is coming and either pass out of it, or go the opposite way its coming from for an easy shot. Cousins is not there yet, could he get there someday? yes, but he's not there yet. When he does and trusts his teammates, then we will be onto something.
Lebron/Durant and especially Kobe go up over 2-3 defenders all the time, especially when within 5ft of the hoop.
What are we even talking about here? Every All Star level player forces it at times over multiple defenders. A reason for that is an All Star level player sees more attention and double/triple coverage than role players. Did Cuz force it at times? Yes. Is he good enough to still make plays and/or score over double/triple coverage? Yes. Not tonight though. And Isaiah had a good shooting night, but Cuz was also likely forcing it because a) he wasn't getting the ball where he operates best which is a recent and worrying problem the last 2-3 weeks and b) he knew we wouldn't win without him getting going so as any player in his position would do, he tried to force himself into the game and get going.
BTW, it wouldn't be all that uncommon for the 1st and 2nd options on a team to force it a bit and try to get going when the 3rd option is busy putting up 38 points. And that's a problem, the guy who's responsible for setting up our top two players once again led the team in FGA's when his main responsibility is getting Cuz/Rudy going. And yes IT was hot at times, but he also took a number of poor shots, some of which he hit.
What are we even talking about here? Every All Star level player forces it at times over multiple defenders. A reason for that is an All Star level player sees more attention and double/triple coverage than role players. Did Cuz force it at times? Yes. Is he good enough to still make plays and/or score over double/triple coverage? Yes. Not tonight though. And Isaiah had a good shooting night, but Cuz was also likely forcing it because a) he wasn't getting the ball where he operates best which is a recent and worrying problem the last 2-3 weeks and b) he knew we wouldn't win without him getting going so as any player in his position would do, he tried to force himself into the game and get going.
BTW, it wouldn't be all that uncommon for the 1st and 2nd options on a team to force it a bit and try to get going when the 3rd option is busy putting up 38 points. And that's a problem, the guy who's responsible for setting up our top two players once again led the team in FGA's when his main responsibility is getting Cuz/Rudy going. And yes IT was hot at times, but he also took a number of poor shots, some of which he hit.
No one is saying we are a losing team because of Demarcus(he has been great all year), we are saying we lost tonight hugely because Demarcus scored 16 pts on 17 shots and had 7 turnovers(OKC had 34 pts off turnovers). What pissed me off was people coming on here saying we lost because IT scored 38 pts on 18 shots(as if thats an easy thing to do against OKC), when they were probably watching football and not basketball.
Only guy I go after is Rondo(assuming he is his old self after injury). Lowry is an option(I prefer IT personally, but they are pretty close talent wise). Lowry is a free agent too after this season though. So to me the only clear upgrade is Rondo, otherwise its draft a PG and see what develops(is the FO really willing to do that? unless its a can't miss talent, I don't see it).
Warriors fans keep talking about the Raptors possibly dealing Kyle Lowry. I've never been a fan of Lowry, but he would be a better fit for this team considering his defensively abilities. I realize the Kings already made a big trade with Toronto and Lowry wasn't involved for whatever reason. However, if they are seriously entertaining trading the guy, perhaps the Kings could package IT and another player, along with a 3rd or 4th team, to make something happen. Lowry would really help this current team simply by being able to defend the PG position.
Get a piece like Lowry, then all the Kings really need to get to the next level is a defensive big to compliment Cuz and to hope McLemore can develop into a competent SG.
Now, if Rondo were somehow available and could be had for what the Kings have to offer outside of Cuz, I'd prefer him to Lowry everyday and twice on Sunday.
Get a piece like Lowry, then all the Kings really need to get to the next level is a defensive big to compliment Cuz and to hope McLemore can develop into a competent SG.
Now, if Rondo were somehow available and could be had for what the Kings have to offer outside of Cuz, I'd prefer him to Lowry everyday and twice on Sunday.
the Peja fans were dead wrong then too.
people import a lot of irrelevant stuff into their assessments of basketball players, and it inevitably taints realistic analysis. Whether you like a guy or don't, whether he went to your school, hails from your home country, is your height, has a great smile, gives you the time of day, is cute, or has a great story is totally and completely irrelevant once he has to step in between those lines. That's the crucible.
people import a lot of irrelevant stuff into their assessments of basketball players, and it inevitably taints realistic analysis. Whether you like a guy or don't, whether he went to your school, hails from your home country, is your height, has a great smile, gives you the time of day, is cute, or has a great story is totally and completely irrelevant once he has to step in between those lines. That's the crucible.
The Peja vs Cwebb thing was much different than should we keep IT discussion. The argument then was who should be the centerpiece of the team. This argument is about your third option and how he fits with your other pieces. I would say if last season we had an argument about Evans vs Cousins, it would be comparable. In Peja vs C Webb you were dealing with max contract type players, IT is likely a $7-8$ million per year commitment(no to mention back then there were 7 year contracts). I was young back then, but I still remember lurking on here and reading some interesting stuff.
While there are multiple factors to why we lost this game the most alarming one is yet to be discuss. It's understandable for players such as Cousin and Gay to have off nights but the most alarming thing was the demeanor of Gay..seems like he was intimidated by Durante and didn't want to play.. That's the first time I have ever seen a player get tossed like that..looks intentional
It happens more often than you would think. If a guy gets T-ed up and keeps arguing, the refs'll likely give him a shorter leash when it comes to the second. If he keeps yapping, he's gone. I know Demarcus has had this happen to him a few times in the past couple seasons. Back in the glory days, I seem to remember Brad Miller getting the good ol' gentleman's ejection a few times
Lebron, Kobe and Durant force shots above 3 defenders because they can elevate above them while Demarcus is nailed to the ground.
Thomas gets tunnel vision at times, but he still learning how to play as the primary distributor to two guys who are better than him. I think we should cut him some slack. How long did it take Westbrook to accept the Durant is the #1 option? Good thing they didn't give up on him so quickly.
Did anybody expect a player with a scoring mentality to change after one month? I would say he has been making decent strides in attempting to get others involved.
Thomas gets tunnel vision at times, but he still learning how to play as the primary distributor to two guys who are better than him. I think we should cut him some slack. How long did it take Westbrook to accept the Durant is the #1 option? Good thing they didn't give up on him so quickly.
Did anybody expect a player with a scoring mentality to change after one month? I would say he has been making decent strides in attempting to get others involved.
You're not looking for an upgrade in talent. You're looking for an upgrade in fit.
IT scored 38 points tonight. That's wonderful. He is a stellar offensive player.
IT (and I have said this since we moved Vasquez) is not a good fit with Cousins/Gay. Cousins and Gay are perfectly suited for grind it out, shot-clock draining, half-court play. The perfect complement for those two is a steady ballhandler who plays tough defense on the perimeter and gives the ball to Cousins down low and Gay on the cut who can also knock down an open three on the kickout when teams double Cousins. IT lacks the defense and the deferential attitude to get his two big guns going prior to looking for his own shot.
IT is best when he is given freedom to speed up the game and jack shots when he has a clear look, much like he did tonight.
IT scored 38 points tonight. That's wonderful. He is a stellar offensive player.
IT (and I have said this since we moved Vasquez) is not a good fit with Cousins/Gay. Cousins and Gay are perfectly suited for grind it out, shot-clock draining, half-court play. The perfect complement for those two is a steady ballhandler who plays tough defense on the perimeter and gives the ball to Cousins down low and Gay on the cut who can also knock down an open three on the kickout when teams double Cousins. IT lacks the defense and the deferential attitude to get his two big guns going prior to looking for his own shot.
IT is best when he is given freedom to speed up the game and jack shots when he has a clear look, much like he did tonight.
isaiah thomas scored 38 points on 18 shots. it was a great game for isaiah thomas. isaiah thomas played really well, yet the kings lost the game. it was on the road against an elite western conference squad, so i wouldn't put too much stock in this particular loss, but the kings continue to lose games in spite of isaiah thomas' statistical excellence. they've won a few in recent memory, and that's been nice, but they've lost far more. it was the same argument when the team's core configuration consisted of cousins/evans/thomas. many around these parts considered evans' individual performances to be "empty" feats. after all, the kings were losers then, too. the new regime ditched tyreke, and that was their prerogative. now the configuration is cousins/gay/thomas, and the kings' problems remain largely unchanged: too many ball dominant scorers, not nearly enough defensive talent...
now, one is tempted to claim that this team hasn't had enough time together since the rudy gay trade to determine just how effective a configuration of cousins/gay/thomas will be across the long term. the trouble is that the kings simply do not have a lot of time to determine if isaiah thomas' statistical value will ever help this team generate wins over the course of a second contract. questions abound: how problematic is IT's porous defense, really? would a rim protector be enough to cover for those glaring defensive weaknesses in IT's game? does the act of the kings' starting point guard "getting his" on offense harm the team at large? will IT be consistently willing to sacrifice his own offense for the good of the team?
i have my suspicions, as well as my personal opinion of how those questions should be answered, but the evaluative time table for isaiah thomas remains the same regardless of what one thinks of thomas' value to the team. he's either re-signed to a long term deal in the offseason, or he's traded before the deadline in february. there's the outside chance that the new regime executes a sign-and-trade of thomas in the offseason, as they did with evans, but it's hard to bargain from a position of power in those situations. i suppose the team could just let IT walk for nothing, but that's not exactly a smart use of their assets. so what do they do? accept 38-point nights from thomas that result in a loss? continue to hope he can become a more consistent playmaker as a point guard? trade him while his value remains tremendously high? just wait it out and hope that they don't have to throw too much money at a player who may only top out as this particular team's sixth man?
i really don't know what PDA is thinking; he hasn't had much to say on the subject of isaiah thomas' future. what i do know is that i'm not fond of a starting lineup that features three 20 ppg scorers who aren't particularly skilled defenders. i like isaiah thomas as a sixth man on a kings team that features demarcus cousins and rudy gay, but i don't like the idea of paying thomas $8 million per to come off the bench. IT's biggest fans can ask why some of us just can't appreciate a great game from their favorite player, but i guess that i'm not thinking about the importance of one more loss; i'm thinking about this team's chances of making the playoffs next season in a brutally tough western conference, and i just don't see it happening with isaiah thomas in the starting lineup, 38-point explosions or not...
now, one is tempted to claim that this team hasn't had enough time together since the rudy gay trade to determine just how effective a configuration of cousins/gay/thomas will be across the long term. the trouble is that the kings simply do not have a lot of time to determine if isaiah thomas' statistical value will ever help this team generate wins over the course of a second contract. questions abound: how problematic is IT's porous defense, really? would a rim protector be enough to cover for those glaring defensive weaknesses in IT's game? does the act of the kings' starting point guard "getting his" on offense harm the team at large? will IT be consistently willing to sacrifice his own offense for the good of the team?
i have my suspicions, as well as my personal opinion of how those questions should be answered, but the evaluative time table for isaiah thomas remains the same regardless of what one thinks of thomas' value to the team. he's either re-signed to a long term deal in the offseason, or he's traded before the deadline in february. there's the outside chance that the new regime executes a sign-and-trade of thomas in the offseason, as they did with evans, but it's hard to bargain from a position of power in those situations. i suppose the team could just let IT walk for nothing, but that's not exactly a smart use of their assets. so what do they do? accept 38-point nights from thomas that result in a loss? continue to hope he can become a more consistent playmaker as a point guard? trade him while his value remains tremendously high? just wait it out and hope that they don't have to throw too much money at a player who may only top out as this particular team's sixth man?
i really don't know what PDA is thinking; he hasn't had much to say on the subject of isaiah thomas' future. what i do know is that i'm not fond of a starting lineup that features three 20 ppg scorers who aren't particularly skilled defenders. i like isaiah thomas as a sixth man on a kings team that features demarcus cousins and rudy gay, but i don't like the idea of paying thomas $8 million per to come off the bench. IT's biggest fans can ask why some of us just can't appreciate a great game from their favorite player, but i guess that i'm not thinking about the importance of one more loss; i'm thinking about this team's chances of making the playoffs next season in a brutally tough western conference, and i just don't see it happening with isaiah thomas in the starting lineup, 38-point explosions or not...
The Kings lost because they didn't have the collective BBIQ of OKC, not because of lack of talent or guys having an off night. With so little coaching time available now, it's not going to get easier anytime soon. OKC really took advantage of Gay
having an inclination to play iso ball, as it is very difficult to instantly integrate him into a synchronized offense on the fly. They forced the Kings into trying to play as cohesive team, which is not what their strength is currently.
Malone's comments after the game were interesting, saying that the Kings' locker room was very low energy at half time, even though they were only down by 5. He said it was like they were down by 20 (as if the game were hopelessly out of reach). Malone has made similar comments in the past. I (and he) don't know what to make of that.
having an inclination to play iso ball, as it is very difficult to instantly integrate him into a synchronized offense on the fly. They forced the Kings into trying to play as cohesive team, which is not what their strength is currently.
Malone's comments after the game were interesting, saying that the Kings' locker room was very low energy at half time, even though they were only down by 5. He said it was like they were down by 20 (as if the game were hopelessly out of reach). Malone has made similar comments in the past. I (and he) don't know what to make of that.
We also lose games, despite Cousins and Gay statistical excellence. I know I've discussed this with you before, but our role guys aren't right for an IT-Gay-Cousins trio to show its true effectiveness. After all, they've essentially been on par with Bron/Wade/Bosh offensively since they've been together. That's damn impressive, any way you shake it. While none are great defenders, I think you can still build a fine defense if you get the right SG/PF and role guys around them.
I guess I just find it interesting that IT's game is brushed off, because we lost, and Cousins game vs the Pacers is praised because he was the only one to show up in that game. Because Boogie is the franchise player? He's the only one who gets to be praised in a losing effort? I don't know.
Also, you're more than welcome to think about the future. I do as well. That doesn't stop me from appreciating a great effort from one of our guys. Just like I do for anyone else on the team when they have a great game. I also find it ridiculous that this thread started off with anyone who gave IT a compliment being called a "fanboy."
I also don't appreciate being compared with Jerry Reynolds because I simply mentioned IT dropped 38 after checking the box-score. A Sacramento King player had a great game. Anyone who shows appreciation for that should not be ridiculed for doing so.
I guess I just find it interesting that IT's game is brushed off, because we lost, and Cousins game vs the Pacers is praised because he was the only one to show up in that game. Because Boogie is the franchise player? He's the only one who gets to be praised in a losing effort? I don't know.
Also, you're more than welcome to think about the future. I do as well. That doesn't stop me from appreciating a great effort from one of our guys. Just like I do for anyone else on the team when they have a great game. I also find it ridiculous that this thread started off with anyone who gave IT a compliment being called a "fanboy."
I also don't appreciate being compared with Jerry Reynolds because I simply mentioned IT dropped 38 after checking the box-score. A Sacramento King player had a great game. Anyone who shows appreciation for that should not be ridiculed for doing so.
The game plan was clearly to force him to shoot and make him beat you with his shot, while not allowing him to get anyone else involved. Pretty simple plan, and okc gets the blowout.
We lost because okc is a much better team that knows how to beat bad teams like ours on their home court. They didn't care what our pg did, cause he can't beat you. Of course, they didn't plan on him getting going quite that much, but they just switched sefolosha on him after halftime and that was the game. He's quite stoppable when a team wants to stop him. All teams know that at this point. They've watched the last 4 mins of the last couple of games.
Interesting that our pg has a career half and the locker room is dead at halftime. Very very interesting.
We lost because okc is a much better team that knows how to beat bad teams like ours on their home court. They didn't care what our pg did, cause he can't beat you. Of course, they didn't plan on him getting going quite that much, but they just switched sefolosha on him after halftime and that was the game. He's quite stoppable when a team wants to stop him. All teams know that at this point. They've watched the last 4 mins of the last couple of games.
Interesting that our pg has a career half and the locker room is dead at halftime. Very very interesting.
C demarcus cousins
PG serge ibaka
SF rudy gay
SG thabo sefalosha
PG isaiah thomas
if you give me that starting lineup, i roll with it ten times out of ten. but when exactly are these skilled veteran defensive stoppers at PF and SG arriving in sacramento?
if you give me willie cauley-stein or noah vonleh in the draft, then i feel more comfortable with the kings frontcourt rotation than i do now, but only marginally so. cauley-stein and vonleh are gonna be rookies, and neither project out as anthony davis-level rim protectors. it will take them time to adapt to the speed of the nba. and then there's still the issue of needing defensive help at SG. the kings won't find one in free agency if they re-sign thomas. they'll be quite capped out. that leaves the trade block, and while they have a couple pieces with value, who knows what kind of return they'll net in any given trade?
if thomas had another year on his contract to evaluate his level of play alongside cousins, gay, and the potential of adding better-fitting role players, then i'd be more inclined to hang onto him. unfortunately, that timetable isn't a reality, and you yourself have admitted that, with thomas starting at PG, there is simply much less flexibility in the kind of roleplayers the kings need to acquire to find success with a trio of cousins/gay/thomas. i just really don't like the idea of re-signing thomas to big money without knowing how successful PDA would be in filling those clear defensive needs at PF and SG...
edit: of course, the "wait and see" approach could work out fine if the kings can retain thomas' services at a reasonable value. then there's flexibility in returning him to a sixth man's role if he doesn't work out. but it's quite a gamble with the salary cap if the kings ink thomas to $8-10 million per and then realize that he simply won't work as a long term starter...
PG serge ibaka
SF rudy gay
SG thabo sefalosha
PG isaiah thomas
if you give me that starting lineup, i roll with it ten times out of ten. but when exactly are these skilled veteran defensive stoppers at PF and SG arriving in sacramento?
if you give me willie cauley-stein or noah vonleh in the draft, then i feel more comfortable with the kings frontcourt rotation than i do now, but only marginally so. cauley-stein and vonleh are gonna be rookies, and neither project out as anthony davis-level rim protectors. it will take them time to adapt to the speed of the nba. and then there's still the issue of needing defensive help at SG. the kings won't find one in free agency if they re-sign thomas. they'll be quite capped out. that leaves the trade block, and while they have a couple pieces with value, who knows what kind of return they'll net in any given trade?
if thomas had another year on his contract to evaluate his level of play alongside cousins, gay, and the potential of adding better-fitting role players, then i'd be more inclined to hang onto him. unfortunately, that timetable isn't a reality, and you yourself have admitted that, with thomas starting at PG, there is simply much less flexibility in the kind of roleplayers the kings need to acquire to find success with a trio of cousins/gay/thomas. i just really don't like the idea of re-signing thomas to big money without knowing how successful PDA would be in filling those clear defensive needs at PF and SG...
edit: of course, the "wait and see" approach could work out fine if the kings can retain thomas' services at a reasonable value. then there's flexibility in returning him to a sixth man's role if he doesn't work out. but it's quite a gamble with the salary cap if the kings ink thomas to $8-10 million per and then realize that he simply won't work as a long term starter...