Time to move Rudy Gay to starting SG and D Williams to starting SF?

[ockingsfan]

Getting almost no production from the Shooting Guard (MT and BM) position all year, should the Kings move Rudy Gay to starting Shooting Guard and insert Derrick Williams back into the starting Small Forward position?

Why the Kings don't do it? Playing Gay out of position may alter his fine play. Takes away developing PT from BM. Kings may start winning more and lose their draft pick by finishing out of the bottom 12.

Why the Kings should do it? MT and BM have been giving the Kings very little production all year. Rudy Gay is probably the Kings second best ball handler on the team and his shooting would translate to SG or SF. They would add extra size to the back court to help compensate for IT's lack of height. This also opens up a front court playing time for Carl Landry's return.

Kings new line up:

PF Thompson/ Landry
SF D Williams / Acy
C DMC / Gray
SG Gay / MT/ BM
PG IT/ Fredette

 

[Glenn]

We are winning as it is.

 

[enigma99a]

Another one of these threads? What I think we need is someone who can spread the floor, otherwise DMC get's triple teamed. But the guy is so good he can score anyway, it's not as efficient. BM is hurt and MT is worthless, so I'd be willing to see less minutes of MT (like less than 20). But with that said, even though it's not about who starts, I'm sick of seeing MT in the starting lineup. I'd like to see him reduced to garbage time.


I think the biggest question is what would it do to D-Will? If we would see a D-Will like tonight more often, I would say YES

 

[sdballer]

No. This team needs to maximize the skills of their best players. Our sg play has been awful but gay is thriving in his role. It diminishes him to play him out of position.

 

[Tetsujin]

Why don't we move Demarcus to SG and put Gray in as starting center? Demarcus is a good ball handler and his size would be a mismatch for everyone. Plus having three big men on the court would clog the lane for our defense. Championship, here we come.

 

[Uncia03]

I think this should be a discussion for after the trade deadline.
I say this because I believe that since Williams has been playing well for us and has absolutely shown the ability to play the SF spot that PDA is going to use him in a trade to bring in better talent at positions of need.

I would only considering moving Gay to the SG spot if all the following were true after the trade deadline
1.) We made a deal with Chicago and no longer have the rights to our #1 pick.
2.) Williams, Thornton, & Ben are all still on the team and Thornton and Ben are playing as poorly as we've seen of late.
3.) Ben is coming off the bench for Rudy and is getting minutes in order to continue his development
4.) We are trying to win as many games as possible regardless of draft implications. (Which there will be none since we would no longer own our pick)

Beyond the issue of winning, the primary reason you don't do this is because when it's all said and done Rudy isn't going to be our long-term SG, so we will need to make sure that the position gets covered somehow. So as a stop-gap I could maybe see it happening, but I wouldn't want him starting with Thornton off the bench leaving Ben with no minutes to work on improving.

 

[KingMilz]

Should have been done 15 games ago or however many it's been since Gay arrived, every game we start off playing 4 on 6. If we don't start him he should be playing 30+mins a game as a minimum.

 

[Bricklayer]

1) right now Ben isn't playing well enough to really earn any minutes, and we are very clearly trying to turn a corner here. If he's still here after the trade deadline, and after we have established that we are turning a corner as a franchise, maybe you could ramp his minutes back up in the final month of the season or some such.

2) Marcus is actually putting out a real effort to play a role he's just wildly unsuited for right now. On nights like tonight, he actually made some contribution despite the complete offensive collapse of the position. Until/unless we can upgrade at the deadline, just having him try to play hustle guy for 20 min a night, then having the mega Gay and DWill swingman combo get the bulk of the minutes might be the best we can do with current personnel. You don't start playing your best guys out of position no matter how big the hole. You don't disrupt them. If the hole is that bad, you bring in another player to patch it.

 

[Kingster]

I can easily see Gay play against so-called "defensive" SGs, such as Tony Allen (who might be out against the Kings in the next game) and Sefolosha. They wouldn't score against him nearly as much as he would score against them. But against mobile offensive SGs, I don't see it. Gay doesn't have the lateral mobility to cover those guys. It all depends on the matchup.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I voted 'Yes', because after seeing Gay defend quality 'SG's' in Afflalo and Wes Matthews with no problems at all....and score over the top of them with ease,...I don't believe this move would "disrupt" Rudy's game at all. In fact, it would give him a chance to raise his efficiency even higher than it already is. He plays like a shooting guard, who also happens to be very long. So use it to our advantage.

I want Williams to get as much playing time as possible, playing with our best lineup. Our best lineup, whether we call it a "starting lineup" or a "closing lineup" or both, includes D-Will and Rudy together. It doesn't include MT or Ben

 

[Padrino]

1) right now Ben isn't playing well enough to really earn any minutes, and we are very clearly trying to turn a corner here. If he's still here after the trade deadline, and after we have established that we are turning a corner as a franchise, maybe you could ramp his minutes back up in the final month of the season or some such.

2) Marcus is actually putting out a real effort to play a role he's just wildly unsuited for right now. On nights like tonight, he actually made some contribution despite the complete offensive collapse of the position. Until/unless we can upgrade at the deadline, just having him try to play hustle guy for 20 min a night, then having the mega Gay and DWill swingman combo get the bulk of the minutes might be the best we can do with current personnel. You don't start playing your best guys out of position no matter how big the hole. You don't disrupt them. If the hole is that bad, you bring in another player to patch it.

indeed. i've noticed a shift in marcus thornton's attitude these last few games. he's still not hitting shots, but he's also still not taking very many shots because of the very pronounced top-heavy trio of cousins/gay/thomas in the starting unit. but instead of letting it beat him down, thornton is rather unbelievably rising to the occasion as an all-around hustle player. he's giving considerable effort on the defensive end, and i'm a bit impressed by this showing of life from a player i would have referred to as dead weight not more than a couple of weeks ago. whatever coach malone is whispering into marcus' ear, it's working, despite the fact that it's "a role he's just wildly unsuited for."

 

[chief bromden]

I say no because it leaves our bench in ruins. Bringing Jimmer, Thornton, and Ben Mac in off the bench scares me. As it is now, Dwill and Gay play this proposed lineup sometimes, and I think that we should stick with using it in certain situations... not out of the gate every game. Just keep starting Thornton until he gets packaged in a deal (lord knows no one will take him straight up), or pray he starts playing better. I am still in disbelief how bad Thornton's game is this year. I think even he is perplexed, because it looks like he's trying out there but just can't get any facet of his game going.

 

[Jkbiker]

I say no because it leaves our bench in ruins. Bringing Jimmer, Thornton, and Ben Mac in off the bench scares me. As it is now, Dwill and Gay play this proposed lineup sometimes, and I think that we should stick with using it in certain situations... not out of the gate every game. Just keep starting Thornton until he gets packaged in a deal (lord knows no one will take him straight up), or pray he starts playing better. I am still in disbelief how bad Thornton's game is this year. I think even he is perplexed, because it looks like he's trying out there but just can't get any facet of his game going.

This!!

Keep DWill coming off the Bench, but keep his minutes up!!! Dwill can Back up Rudy, Switch to the 4 for Minutes, SLide Rudy and DWill to 2-3, anything we can do to keep him out there

I think he had 28 min out there last night, he should have more minutes than any bench player right now

 

[HereWeBoogie]

The Kings have won 4 out of their last 5 games, with the loss coming to the BEST team in the NBA, leave the lineup alone until we trade for or draft a competent SG

 

[Gary]

Seen too much of players playing out of position the last few years. Gay is a SF that can play SG for a few minutes here and there. I would rather just leave him at SF and have DWill keep coming off the bench. It's not broke so we don't need to fix it. Sure we need MORE talent but this wouldn't solve anything.

 

[Chubbs]

Play Williams more, don't put Rudy out of position.

 

[JLoss22]

We have the most consistent rotations set right now that we've had in years. And some of you guys wanna go all Keith Smart on us...

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Play Williams more, don't put Rudy out of position.

Williams is not nearly as effective when he's out of position at the 4. It's not even close. He has to play against 3's to be effective. Rudy on the other hand, dominates against 2's or 3's

 

[LPKingsFan]

indeed. i've noticed a shift in marcus thornton's attitude these last few games. he's still not hitting shots, but he's also still not taking very many shots because of the very pronounced top-heavy trio of cousins/gay/thomas in the starting unit. but instead of letting it beat him down, thornton is rather unbelievably rising to the occasion as an all-around hustle player. he's giving considerable effort on the defensive end, and i'm a bit impressed by this showing of life from a player i would have referred to as dead weight not more than a couple of weeks ago. whatever coach malone is whispering into marcus' ear, it's working, despite the fact that it's "a role he's just wildly unsuited for."

Indeed. He's not as "checked out" as he was earlier this season, and he's actually had some games where he's contributed very well on the rebounding front.

Still, his main value is shooting and he needs to get that percentage up. He's definitely not a future piece, so the sooner he starts hitting his shot and redeeming his trade value the better.

 

[Padrino]

Indeed. He's not as "checked out" as he was earlier this season, and he's actually had some games where he's contributed very well on the rebounding front.

Still, his main value is shooting and he needs to get that percentage up. He's definitely not a future piece, so the sooner he starts hitting his shot and redeeming his trade value the better.

regardless of whether or not he improves on his current shooting percentage, i suspect that his trade value will function primarily as an ending contract next season. unless another team absorbs thornton's contract as part of a trade package that features isaiah thomas, i really don't see the kings being able to move thornton before the deadline. that said, it certainly would be nice if he could go 3-5 on spot-up shots rather than 0-5 if he is to remain a starter who primarily hustles and gives an effort on the defensive end...

 

[CruzDude]

Seen too much of players playing out of position the last few years. Gay is a SF that can play SG for a few minutes here and there. I would rather just leave him at SF and have DWill keep coming off the bench. It's not broke so we don't need to fix it. Sure we need MORE talent but this wouldn't solve anything.

Agree and the bench desparately needs a DWill with the lack of production from SG. Acy helps at the 4/5 but he is not looking for shots but is a decent to good defender at the 4/5. SG is the real need now.

 

[SacTownKid]

I think they've looked more dangerous with Gay at SF and Williams at PF.

 

[Toasty]

I can't recall sans injury a player that dropped off as much as MT.

Does he want out or did he contract lazy?

 

[Chubbs]

Seriously, what's the deal with him? He's just been amazingly bad.

 

[enigma99a]

Well, MT is here to stay... No team will touch him with his 8.5m a year

My problem with MT is simple... With Rudy/DMC/IT, we really don't need someone else to put up big numbers, but I would like some players who have a good 3pt %, who can keep the defense honest. I don't think MT can even hit his shots in practice. But, he is supposed to be the Bayou Bomber, right?

His overall FG% is 0.364, which is good enough to be in dead last place on the team (well if you don't count Ray) D-will is .500, but as long as he's getting his minutes he can come off the bench

 

[jcwkings]

You have to keep MT starting as long as he is playing hard on defense. We need Williams off the bench, play MT his 20-25 min and go with the big lineup when it counts if needed. I agree that Mac shouldn't be getting any minutes right now.

 

[Uncia03]

Well, MT is here to stay... No team will touch him with his 8.5m a year

A bad contract is only bad until you run into an even worse one. At that point, the 'bad' contract looks good to the other team.
Here are some thoughts on Thornton's contract.

Thornton is going to be tradable as an expiring contract next year. And because he'll be a large expiring next year, you could conceivably trade him to a team who is trying to offload a contract that is larger than his.
For example I present to you....Gerald Wallace.
He's making a bit over 10 million this year and Thornton is making a bit over 8 million.
Wallace has this season plus two more seasons.
Thornton has this season and next season.

You could make that trade, with the Kings obviously getting the worse of the deal since Wallace' contract is not only 2 million more but also a full year longer.
So in this case, Boston wins that head's up trade from a salary perspective.
And why would the Kings ever do something like that?
Because there is no way Boston trades Rondo (if they are thinking about it) with-out off-loading Wallace' terrible contract in the process.

So in my mind Thornton will be crucial in any potential deal with Boston because he's the guy that will be used as the piece to absorb Wallace' contract.
Thornton's contract might not be good, but it does look good when you compare it to Wallace.
Then you've got to match Rondo's contract with a package of IT/D-Will/JT and sweeten it with some picks and you're theoretically on your way.

Now I'd love for a deal like this to happen. I'm not saying that it will, but just wanted to point out that Thorton's contract might not be great, but it could have value this year, and will certainly have value next year.

 

[ParniValjak]

A bad contract is only bad until you run into an even worse one. At that point, the 'bad' contract looks good to the other team.
Here are some thoughts on Thornton's contract.

Thornton is going to be tradable as an expiring contract next year. And because he'll be a large expiring next year, you could conceivably trade him to a team who is trying to offload a contract that is larger than his.
For example I present to you....Gerald Wallace.
He's making a bit over 10 million this year and Thornton is making a bit over 8 million.
Wallace has this season plus two more seasons.
Thornton has this season and next season.

You could make that trade, with the Kings obviously getting the worse of the deal since Wallace' contract is not only 2 million more but also a full year longer.
So in this case, Boston wins that head's up trade from a salary perspective.
And why would the Kings ever do something like that?
Because there is no way Boston trades Rondo (if they are thinking about it) with-out off-loading Wallace' terrible contract in the process.

So in my mind Thornton will be crucial in any potential deal with Boston because he's the guy that will be used as the piece to absorb Wallace' contract.
Thornton's contract might not be good, but it does look good when you compare it to Wallace.
Then you've got to match Rondo's contract with a package of IT/D-Will/JT and sweeten it with some picks and you're theoretically on your way.

Now I'd love for a deal like this to happen. I'm not saying that it will, but just wanted to point out that Thorton's contract might not be great, but it could have value this year, and will certainly have value next year.

That is true but at some point you've got to start looking at economics and salary cap flexibility. I don't think our owners would be too keen on being a luxury tax team every year unless we are contending every year like the Heat.

We've got to be careful with that type of deal. Obviously the target is Rondo but we need to weight up whether Rondo ($12M)-Gay ($19M)-Cousins ($14M) is a perennial championship contender with the supporting cast that we have. Keeping in mind that with Wallace's $10M on the books, you are finding it increasingly hard to keep that trio and get that much needed interior defensive anchor, a SG and some decent bench. That's $55M committed to 4 players. Not a great way operate!

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to have that trio but we are not Brooklyn Nyets where paying luxury tax doesn't make us blink. We are a small market team with a limited way to generate money and I suspect our approach to salaries will be similar to that of the San Antonio, Indiana or OKC. Take OKC for an example of team that finds it hard to fill out holes with 3 player earning over $12M per season (2 max contracts). They had to let Harden go, then Martin and they would love to have some interior presence other than Perkins, someone that can actually score (I think Peković would suit that team brilliantly).

 

[dude12]

I'd keep playing Ben his minutes, need to develop the kid. His defense has been ok.....maybe not ok every game, but are other guards defense is also deficient. Gay at SG is strictly on a game by game and a matchup setting for small chunks of time. Until there is another SG brought in, Ben has to be developed. Malone is fairly committed to that, as he should be at the moment

 

[jsb]

I wouldn't mess with the rotations right now. The reason we are winning is because the bench (Jimmer and DWill )is actually contributing. It would help if MT or Ben could hit a shot but as of now they barely see the ball so whats the point.
Ben isn't playing well enough to see any minutes really.