Goodbye, Luc...we hardly knew ye.

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King Baller

King Baller

All-Star
#61
#61
This comes after a short series of games that Luc started. He can change the game with his defense for sure. I can imagine CP3 hoping Adelman does not put Luc on him when the Clips play the TPups:) Of course if it happens CP3 will just have one of his boys hold Luc because the Refs "let the Clippers play ball".

Best of luck in Minny Luc!

KB
 
Darth Divac

Darth Divac

Bench
#62
#62
I understand the need for veteran, defensive minded roleplayers. They're a nice bonus and always have something to teach the young guys. With that being said, what young guys? Cousins, Mclemore - and who else? Before get the roleplayers, you need the actual, star talent. Williams gives us a shot at a star talent, whether it's by becoming one himself or sucking so bad he gives us a high draft pick. Loved Luc, but he was a one-dimensional player who was never going to win us any games. I like it.
 
Swaze

Swaze

Bench
#63
#63
Mbah a Moute is a guy who could absolutely help a playoff team or budding playoff team (in the case of Minnesota) but he wasn't going to help turnaround a team like the Kings. Let's face it the Kings aren't going to the playoffs this year or next year.

One must also acknowledge that the Kings seriously lack talent and have been pathetic offensively. Williams while a major disappointment thus far in his career is a talented offensive player and has the potential to be very good to maybe even great offensively. He's also not bad on the defensive end and should improve under Malone.

I'm not sure how anybody with a rational thinking mind could be mad about this deal. If you honestly think the Kings were going to the playoffs this year or next year with Mbah a Moute then you are delusional. Does Derrick Williams take them to the playoffs this year or next year, NO but unlike Mbah a Moute he potentially takes you there two years from now.
 
P

ppine

Starter
#64
#64
Rick Adleman is notorious for getting the most out of his players. What does it say about Williams if Adelman gave up on him?
JLM was the best defender on the Kings' team. Rebounding and defense are what Malone preaches and the key to the Kings improvement. I doubt if this trade was Malone's idea. The best defender on a team and best rebounder almost always become starters.

The list of Kings players that have had double-doubles lately playing for someone else is very long with players like Hawes, Garcia, Martin, Casspi, and Brooks. The Kings have been a revolving door. I say that the Kings need to acquire better talent via draft and trades by going after blue-chip players. I would gladly give up 2-3 role players for one of starter quality. JLM is starter quality and Williams is stil a big question mark.
 
Chubbs

Chubbs

Starter
#65
#65
ppine said:
Rick Adleman is notorious for getting the most out of his players. What does it say about Williams if Adelman gave up on him?
JLM was the best defender on the Kings' team. Rebounding and defense are what Malone preaches and the key to the Kings improvement. I doubt if this trade was Malone's idea. The best defender on a team and best rebounder almost always become starters.

The list of Kings players that have had double-doubles lately playing for someone else is very long with players like Hawes, Garcia, Martin, Casspi, and Brooks. The Kings have been a revolving door. I say that the Kings need to acquire better talent via draft and trades by going after blue-chip players. I would gladly give up 2-3 role players for one of starter quality. JLM is starter quality and Williams is stil a big question mark.
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Adelman has Kevin love. Love is better. So is pecovic. Williams had no chance on that team. They're not rebuilding, we are.

No one is claiming Williams will be anything, just that there is a chance. Kid is still 22. I disagree on the prince being a starter. Minnesota surely does as well. Although maybe they start him and put brewer off the bench. They also might be aware of the knee issues and want to limit minutes. Which we started out doing I'll add then quickly abandoned once they started shopping players.

This is the difference between a good team and a bad team. To us, MAM was the greatest thing since sliced bread. To Minny fans he's a scrub at the end of the bench. Our fan base is smarter than most, cause on paper MaM is pretty much nothing. That we value him so much says a lot about us as a fanbase. His value isn't on the stat sheet.
 
Padrino

Padrino

All-Star
#66
#66
ppine said:
Rick Adleman is notorious for getting the most out of his players. What does it say about Williams if Adelman gave up on him?
JLM was the best defender on the Kings' team. Rebounding and defense are what Malone preaches and the key to the Kings improvement. I doubt if this trade was Malone's idea. The best defender on a team and best rebounder almost always become starters.

The list of Kings players that have had double-doubles lately playing for someone else is very long with players like Hawes, Garcia, Martin, Casspi, and Brooks. The Kings have been a revolving door. I say that the Kings need to acquire better talent via draft and trades by going after blue-chip players. I would gladly give up 2-3 role players for one of starter quality. JLM is starter quality and Williams is stil a big question mark.
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adelman is also notorious for keeping raw young talents glued to the bench, if he believes it will make his team more competitive to do so. rather famously, he used to sit the reckless jason williams for the entirety of a great many fourth quarters, opting to play bobby jackson instead. and it's not like bobby jackson was a paragon of stability on the court. eventually, the kings traded jason williams for mike bibby, satisfying adelman's desire to have a veteran presence at the starting PG position. he also refused to give gerald wallace meaningful minutes while the kings were still chasing a title. the timberwolves aren't quite that elite, but they're plenty good enough to warrant the shelving of derrick williams' development, especially now that they're healthy. derrick williams was simply a casualty of minnesota's "win now (and keep kevin love happy)" mode. i'm certainly not convinced that he'll develop into anything special, but he'll get his chance this season in sacramento...
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#67
#67
Padrino said:
adelman is also notorious for keeping raw young talents glued to the bench, if he believes it will make his team more competitive to do so. rather famously, he used to sit the reckless jason williams for the entirety of a great many fourth quarters, opting to play bobby jackson instead. and it's not like bobby jackson was a paragon of stability on the court. eventually, the kings traded jason williams for mike bibby, satisfying adelman's desire to have a veteran presence at the starting PG position. he also refused to give gerald wallace meaningful minutes while the kings were still chasing a title. the timberwolves aren't quite that elite, but they're plenty good enough to warrant the shelving of derrick williams' development, especially now that they're healthy. derrick williams was simply a casualty of minnesota's "win now (and keep kevin love happy)" mode. i'm certainly not convinced that he'll develop into anything special, but he'll get his chance this season in sacramento...
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Well, that isn't going to serve as much of an excuse for Williams, as he's averaged about 23min a game for the last few years. Plenty of time to show something.

On the other hand, maybe changing positions, roles etc., all those injuries might have disrupted him etc. Lots of excuses. But Adelman pinning him to the bench isn't one of them. He's played. He's sucked. Here's hoping he settles in now.
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#68
#68
Am I right that Minnesota has missed the playoffs 9 years in a row? It sounds like some people think they are getting the missing piece for a juggernaut. Also, if Luc's knees are such a concern, the T'Wolves will reject him via the physical.
 
Gary

Gary

All-Star
#69
#69
Padrino said:
adelman is also notorious for keeping raw young talents glued to the bench, if he believes it will make his team more competitive to do so. rather famously, he used to sit the reckless jason williams for the entirety of a great many fourth quarters, opting to play bobby jackson instead. and it's not like bobby jackson was a paragon of stability on the court. eventually, the kings traded jason williams for mike bibby, satisfying adelman's desire to have a veteran presence at the starting PG position. he also refused to give gerald wallace meaningful minutes while the kings were still chasing a title. the timberwolves aren't quite that elite, but they're plenty good enough to warrant the shelving of derrick williams' development, especially now that they're healthy. derrick williams was simply a casualty of minnesota's "win now (and keep kevin love happy)" mode. i'm certainly not convinced that he'll develop into anything special, but he'll get his chance this season in sacramento...
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I had forgot we had BJ at the same time as Williams. I could have sworn it was either Vernon Maxwell or Tony Delk, but I guess in 2000-2001 Jackson and Williams were on the same team! Learn something new every day!

Anyway, Adelman is very fickle with his players, and I think Williams is a good risk. He wasn't the second pick in the draft for nothing. It's not like he was REALLY raw or anything. I would have rather we gave up another player, but I am sure that Minn wanted Luc.
 
R

randymoss1881

Starter
#70
#70
Chubbs said:
I think I said somewhere else on this board, don't go falling in love with any player right now.

This is a trade down in the sense that it likely makes us worse right now, with a hope and a prayer it turns out in the long run.

Short run, this is about a draft pick. That culture change goes by the name of Parker/wiggins/randle/insert name.

Expect more vets out the door for picks and/or unproven youth as the season goes on.

PDA turned two second round picks into the #2 pick from 2011. It's hard to be too disappointed. Those are the chances they have to take.
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This board is gonna loose it when we trade IT
 
P

ppine

Starter
#71
#71
Thanks for straightening me out with regard to Adelman. I still don't like the trade. Williams was a force playing for AZ, but defense is the key moving forward.

Trading IT will give me nightmares.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#73
#73
Padrino said:
adelman is also notorious for keeping raw young talents glued to the bench, if he believes it will make his team more competitive to do so. rather famously, he used to sit the reckless jason williams for the entirety of a great many fourth quarters, opting to play bobby jackson instead. and it's not like bobby jackson was a paragon of stability on the court. eventually, the kings traded jason williams for mike bibby, satisfying adelman's desire to have a veteran presence at the starting PG position. he also refused to give gerald wallace meaningful minutes while the kings were still chasing a title. the timberwolves aren't quite that elite, but they're plenty good enough to warrant the shelving of derrick williams' development, especially now that they're healthy. derrick williams was simply a casualty of minnesota's "win now (and keep kevin love happy)" mode. i'm certainly not convinced that he'll develop into anything special, but he'll get his chance this season in sacramento...
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Are there any other examples? People always say that Adelman is bad at developing young players but I've only really witnessed him missing on Gerald Wallace.
 
PurpleHaze

PurpleHaze

All-Star
#74
#74
Padrino said:
adelman is also notorious for keeping raw young talents glued to the bench, if he believes it will make his team more competitive to do so. rather famously, he used to sit the reckless jason williams for the entirety of a great many fourth quarters, opting to play bobby jackson instead. and it's not like bobby jackson was a paragon of stability on the court. eventually, the kings traded jason williams for mike bibby, satisfying adelman's desire to have a veteran presence at the starting PG position. he also refused to give gerald wallace meaningful minutes while the kings were still chasing a title. the timberwolves aren't quite that elite, but they're plenty good enough to warrant the shelving of derrick williams' development, especially now that they're healthy. derrick williams was simply a casualty of minnesota's "win now (and keep kevin love happy)" mode. i'm certainly not convinced that he'll develop into anything special, but he'll get his chance this season in sacramento...
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Chase Budinger comes to mind as someone who Adelman took liking to and helped develop as a rookie in Houston. Now he has Chase again in Minnesota where Budinger has been out for some time after knee surgery. As Budinger gets ready to be activated later this season he could be another reason DWill was seen as expendable, playing basically same position and better shooter - at least so far.
 
Padrino

Padrino

All-Star
#75
#75
ESP47 said:
Are there any other examples? People always say that Adelman is bad at developing young players but I've only really witnessed him missing on Gerald Wallace.
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i don't actually believe that rick adelman "is bad at developing young players." that wasn't my contention. but, when adelma's teams are truly competitive, it is not his inclination to value the development of a raw, inexperienced talent, like gerald wallace or derrick williams. even kevin martin didn't see much court time in his rookie season with the kings, because that particular roster was still in the playoff hunt. however, as the kings began to bleed talent, martin's value as a wing scorer increased, and adelman did well in bringing martin along. within a couple of seasons under adelman, martin became one of the most efficient SG's in the league...
 
kennadog

kennadog

Dog On It!
#76
#76
I liked Luc's defense. I'll miss that. Plus he seemed happy to come to Sacramento. I wish him all the best. I think he'll like playing for Adelman.

I get tired of people saying Adelman missed on Gerald Wallace. The other payers on the team and others were openly saying Gerald was lazy. That's one of the reasons why he didn't get to play much. I think the trade was a good wake up call for him.
 
John Galt

John Galt

Starter
#79
#79
I love the Luc deal. Youth movement. I think we bring in a Luc type player when we're at a different phase of our development - right now we need to gamble and build a youthful core.

I love Aaron Bruski too. He was a great twitter follow during the Seattle saga - a good guy - a real Sac homer. Hurts me a little to see him blasted here this way.

I love the front office direction. Hire an elite coaching prospect. Build the team around DMC. Bring in "good locker room guys". Take a swing at elite free agents (even if you miss), stockpile youth.

I've been to most of the games. I love watching DMC dominate and Ben jump. The rest is all going to come in good time.

Luc - we'll see you in a few years when we're a bottom tier playoff team trying to make that move to elite status. THEN we will bring you back. Meanwhile - have a great time in Minny.

Derrick: welcome aboard buddy - now finish some lobs and get that crowd on its feet!!
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#80
#80
John Galt said:
I love Aaron Bruski too. He was a great twitter follow during the Seattle saga - a good guy - a real Sac homer. Hurts me a little to see him blasted here this way.
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Oh, there were several people very important to keeping the team in Sacto that were much more valuable at that than they have ever been as actual basketball analysts. Bruski was a well known case even before the Maloofs tried to steal the team. Should note being a homer is valuable in a fight, but destructive to realistic assessments.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#81
#81
ESP47 said:
Are there any other examples? People always say that Adelman is bad at developing young players but I've only really witnessed him missing on Gerald Wallace.
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This argument is used far too much and is being thrown around by the glass half full crowd so they can get more excited about Williams despite his failures.

Adelman played regularly and developed young PG's in Brooks(MIP under Rick), Lowry and Dragic.

Played a 2nd rounder in Buddinger 20+ mins per game as a rook.

Showed no hesitation playing Rubio big mins despite Ricky has issues being an offensive threat.

Threw Shved out there for 24 mins a night as a rook.

And started Williams 71 times his first two years in the league, including 56 starts last year. That's not even comparable to Wallace's situation under Adelman.

Williams had multiple opportunities under Rick, he didn't impress. Many of those opportunities came at SF. That's a worry. Whether Love/Pekovic prevented him from playing PF as another poster mentioned doesn't enter into this as we didn't get him to play PF. Malone pretty much came out and said that, we're trying him at SF first. Even if we did get him to play the 4, it's quite a problem as he'd be our 4th undersized PF but going by what Malone said, he only ends up at PF if he fails at SF again.

I think we're all hoping this works out but too many here IMO are using Rick's time in Sac with one of the top teams in the league as an excuse for Williams' lack of success in Minn and suggesting the way Rick treated Wallace or JWill at times had any bearing at all on Williams, which it didn't. Rick has given opportunities to plenty of young player since his time here. That is largely ignored though.
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#82
#82
rainmaker said:
This argument is used far too much and is being thrown around by the glass half full crowd so they can get more excited about Williams despite his failures.

Adelman played regularly and developed young PG's in Brooks(MIP under Rick), Lowry and Dragic.

Played a 2nd rounder in Buddinger 20+ mins per game as a rook.

Showed no hesitation playing Rubio big mins despite Ricky has issues being an offensive threat.

Threw Shved out there for 24 mins a night as a rook.

And started Williams 71 times his first two years in the league, including 56 starts last year. That's not even comparable to Wallace's situation under Adelman.

Williams had multiple opportunities under Rick, he didn't impress. Many of those opportunities came at SF. That's a worry. Whether Love/Pekovic prevented him from playing PF as another poster mentioned doesn't enter into this as we didn't get him to play PF. Malone pretty much came out and said that, we're trying him at SF first. Even if we did get him to play the 4, it's quite a problem as he'd be our 4th undersized PF but going by what Malone said, he only ends up at PF if he fails at SF again.

I think we're all hoping this works out but too many here IMO are using Rick's time in Sac with one of the top teams in the league as an excuse for Williams' lack of success in Minn and suggesting the way Rick treated Wallace or JWill at times had any bearing at all on Williams, which it didn't. Rick has given opportunities to plenty of young player since his time here. That is largely ignored though.
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I think the long and short of this is that Rick would use any player with a high BBIQ as he was a tinkerer on offense and if a player didn't have the capacity to follow his tinkering, he had little patience with them and there is nothing wrong with that. Rick has done well that way. I presume Williams is not the sharpest knife in the drawer but his athleticism. That's not Rick's kind of guy but we can hope that Malone has the patience to deal with him. Or Corliss. Or whoever.

Although this is a buh bye Luc thread I hope a little tangentiality is allowed. I have a problem with getting a guy who had most success and expereince as a PF when we have PPat and Landry (some day). We have enough bigs in the long haul and we will see who we keep and who we jettison. As to SF, I have had a long standing bias against putting people into positions that are foreign to them. This is the opposite of putting a guy in a position where he can succeed. At the least, we can't expect much. I look forward to the next game.

Was there really no guy more than 6'10" available? This will continue to be my frustration. We gave up our only valuable movable piece depending on what you think of IT and used him in the wrong way. Unless we were just happy to dump him to the nearest buyer.

I doubt if anyone really knows what the rationale was behind this trade.
 
ShastaKingsFan

ShastaKingsFan

All-Star
#83
#83
Glenn said:
I think the long and short of this is that Rick would use any player with a high BBIQ as he was a tinkerer on offense and if a player didn't have the capacity to follow his tinkering, he had little patience with them and there is nothing wrong with that. Rick has done well that way. I presume Williams is not the sharpest knife in the drawer but his athleticism. That's not Rick's kind of guy but we can hope that Malone has the patience to deal with him. Or Corliss. Or whoever.

Although this is a buh bye Luc thread I hope a little tangentiality is allowed. I have a problem with getting a guy who had most success and expereince as a PF when we have PPat and Landry (some day). We have enough bigs in the long haul and we will see who we keep and who we jettison. As to SF, I have had a long standing bias against putting people into positions that are foreign to them. This is the opposite of putting a guy in a position where he can succeed. At the least, we can't expect much. I look forward to the next game.

Was there really no guy more than 6'10" available? This will continue to be my frustration.
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There's no indication that 'we' believe that he's the answer as our biggest/longest forward, going into the future. Guaranteed, they're still looking for that piece
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#86
#86
Does it really matter what happened with Williams in Minnesota anymore? Both sides have moved on, he's a King now. Luc is gone because that's who McHale wanted and PDA wanted Williams badly enough to agree to it. I mean, feel free to do as you wish but I think that discussion was only worth pursuing until there was actually a body of evidence to point to regarding Williams' ability to fit into what this team is doing. When he was the coach of Sacramento, Adelman did a really good job of developing certain players and others either weren't ready or didn't fit those plans. It happens. Matt Barnes was an afterthought as a King but made a nice career for himself elsewhere. Same with Gerald Wallace and Hedo Turkoglu. We all know the success stories. At best though, past events can predict future events with some degree of certainty. It's hardly an absolute.
 
PurpleHaze

PurpleHaze

All-Star
#87
#87
hrdboild said:
Does it really matter what happened with Williams in Minnesota anymore? Both sides have moved on, he's a King now. Luc is gone because that's who McHale wanted and PDA wanted Williams badly enough to agree to it. I mean, feel free to do as you wish but I think that discussion was only worth pursuing until there was actually a body of evidence to point to regarding Williams' ability to fit into what this team is doing. When he was the coach of Sacramento, Adelman did a really good job of developing certain players and others either weren't ready or didn't fit those plans. It happens. Matt Barnes was an afterthought as a King but made a nice career for himself elsewhere. Same with Gerald Wallace and Hedo Turkoglu. We all know the success stories. At best though, past events can predict future events with some degree of certainty. It's hardly an absolute.
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Not sure I understand reference to McHale. Anyway here's another tidbit about DWill and his apparent problems with Adelman in Minny. Also, a few of the comments are interesting.

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_...liams-couldnt-grasp-t-wolves-scheme?eref=sihp
 
Capt. Factorial

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
#88
#88
PurpleHaze said:
Not sure I understand reference to McHale. Anyway here's another tidbit about DWill and his apparent problems with Adelman in Minny. Also, a few of the comments are interesting.

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_...liams-couldnt-grasp-t-wolves-scheme?eref=sihp
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Well, if a random, one-line web page says that Derrick Williams is just too dumb to understand an NBA offense, I guess that's good enough for me. Though I do hear the grapes are pretty sour in Minnesota this time of year.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#89
#89
PurpleHaze said:
Not sure I understand reference to McHale. Anyway here's another tidbit about DWill and his apparent problems with Adelman in Minny. Also, a few of the comments are interesting.

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_...liams-couldnt-grasp-t-wolves-scheme?eref=sihp
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:D No big deal, just forgot what year it is apparently. It happens. Nevermind that Kevin McHale isn't currently the GM of any NBA teams.

PS - I think "BBall IQ" has become one of those terms that is so misused anymore that it's practically useless. Not understanding an offensive scheme isn't the same thing as having a low BBall IQ, it implies a low IQ in general. BBall IQ has more to do with reading and reacting to the situation taking place on the floor during a game. Based on comments Williams made that were published in other articles, I think Williams understood the offense, he just wasn't happy with his role in it.
 
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