What Realistically can be done to improve?
- Thread starter Jerichoholic
- Start date
The Kings success with the draft has not been good except for the Cousins pick. McLemore will probably be a great player. But the years before with Jimmer and Robinson were wasted. Ironic that Mr. Irrelevant is the no 2 guy on the team. Jimmer looked really slow against the Suns. He is highly skilled, but does not have the quickness and footspeed to compete against a lot of players in the NBA. It is most apparent on defense. He makes some good decisions most of the time but cannot get there fast enough.
Coach Malone is going to fix a lot of what is wrong with this team.
Coach Malone is going to fix a lot of what is wrong with this team.
I actually wanted the Kings to win, but everyt ime they lose i'm sad and if they win, i'm like nooh..we want to have a a high draft pick and have a chance to get Wiggins!
I'm just happy to watch the Kings play. I'm hoping Kings can get better via trade. If we can get Rondo and Asik that will be great. Jeff Green looks like a good option for our SF woes as I posted in another thread. Luol Deng would be a good fit as well.
I'm just happy to watch the Kings play. I'm hoping Kings can get better via trade. If we can get Rondo and Asik that will be great. Jeff Green looks like a good option for our SF woes as I posted in another thread. Luol Deng would be a good fit as well.
Thomas is a sixth man. Period. End of discussion.
I have written lengthy posts in the past about why Thomas and Cousins games are not naturally complementary, so I don't want to retread the same ground. Suffice to say that while Thomas and Cousins do not make each other worse, they do not necessarily make each other better.
In the ideal scenario, you put Cousins out there with a 3 and d point guard, a rim protecting 4, a 3 and d wing and a scoring wing.
2014 lineup - Cousins/Ed Davis (RFA)/Jabari Parker/McLemore/Kyle Lowry (FA). That's a playoff team right there. You just have to dump enough salary in trades to be able to make real runs at a good defensive PG and a good defensive 4.
I have written lengthy posts in the past about why Thomas and Cousins games are not naturally complementary, so I don't want to retread the same ground. Suffice to say that while Thomas and Cousins do not make each other worse, they do not necessarily make each other better.
In the ideal scenario, you put Cousins out there with a 3 and d point guard, a rim protecting 4, a 3 and d wing and a scoring wing.
2014 lineup - Cousins/Ed Davis (RFA)/Jabari Parker/McLemore/Kyle Lowry (FA). That's a playoff team right there. You just have to dump enough salary in trades to be able to make real runs at a good defensive PG and a good defensive 4.
At this point I think our starters should be
Thomas
Mbah A Moute
Outlaw
Thompson
Cousins
Vasquez's defense is so incredibly bad that we can't justify him starting anymore. How many times have we been down by 10 after the first quarter, only to have to come back at the end of the game? Let Vasquez lead the reserves off the bench and guard backup PG's. He gets broken down at the 3 pt line so often it's insane. It leads to easy baskets, Cousins/JT in foul trouble and wide open 3's from guys having to help in the paint.
McLemore's defense is equally as bad as Vasquez's. The effort is there but he is still really bad. Even when he has a good shooting game and scores in the teens, he still manages to give up more on the defensive end. I don't think his progress will be hurt at all by going back to the bench and letting Vasquez find him open shots. He needs to be able to guard backups before he can guard starters.
Mbah A Moute can obviously guard most any PG, all SG's, all SF's and about half the PF's out there. Start him at the 2 and let him guard the PG, SG or SF depending on match ups.
Outlaw can guard some PG's in spurts, most SG's, all SF's and some PF's. As long as his spot up shooting remains hot, I don't mind him starting at all. This way we have two really good defenders who can get switched on half the other teams players and still not be a mismatch defensively.
Cousins and Thomas are 3rd and 5th in the league in points per 48. Let them take most of the shots or hit Outlaw for 3's. Let Mbah A Moute get what he can get and then let Thompson be the bail out guy who can make something happen and do a little of everything on the court. I think with this starting lineup we have a better chance of scoring more points in the first quarter and even if we aren't scoring, we have better defenders on the court to keep the other teams starters from getting a 10 point lead right out of the gate.
Thomas
Mbah A Moute
Outlaw
Thompson
Cousins
Vasquez's defense is so incredibly bad that we can't justify him starting anymore. How many times have we been down by 10 after the first quarter, only to have to come back at the end of the game? Let Vasquez lead the reserves off the bench and guard backup PG's. He gets broken down at the 3 pt line so often it's insane. It leads to easy baskets, Cousins/JT in foul trouble and wide open 3's from guys having to help in the paint.
McLemore's defense is equally as bad as Vasquez's. The effort is there but he is still really bad. Even when he has a good shooting game and scores in the teens, he still manages to give up more on the defensive end. I don't think his progress will be hurt at all by going back to the bench and letting Vasquez find him open shots. He needs to be able to guard backups before he can guard starters.
Mbah A Moute can obviously guard most any PG, all SG's, all SF's and about half the PF's out there. Start him at the 2 and let him guard the PG, SG or SF depending on match ups.
Outlaw can guard some PG's in spurts, most SG's, all SF's and some PF's. As long as his spot up shooting remains hot, I don't mind him starting at all. This way we have two really good defenders who can get switched on half the other teams players and still not be a mismatch defensively.
Cousins and Thomas are 3rd and 5th in the league in points per 48. Let them take most of the shots or hit Outlaw for 3's. Let Mbah A Moute get what he can get and then let Thompson be the bail out guy who can make something happen and do a little of everything on the court. I think with this starting lineup we have a better chance of scoring more points in the first quarter and even if we aren't scoring, we have better defenders on the court to keep the other teams starters from getting a 10 point lead right out of the gate.
K
With the emergence one of LRMAM at the SF spot I wonder if we could trade Thornton and Vasquez in a package for a starting level PG who is capable playing both ways and hope to draft a SF in the upcoming NBA draft, it would allow us to keep the "IT Factor" in his best role and allow us to at least be competitive at the PG starting spot.
I really like what I see from Prince he's a long term player in my book and he's helped the SF spot a lot so yeah maybe trying to find a starting PG with preferably good D something like George Hill (minus the contract) would not be bad at all.
I really like what I see from Prince he's a long term player in my book and he's helped the SF spot a lot so yeah maybe trying to find a starting PG with preferably good D something like George Hill (minus the contract) would not be bad at all.
No, no. A thousand times no. I don't give a rat's ass what his scoring average is, or how "efficient" he is, Thomas should not start.
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: Isaiah Thomas fits his role of 6th man perfectly; stop trying to make him into something that he isn't. Even if you think that he's one of our "best" players, Kings Fans need to free themselves from this false paradigm that your five "best" players "have" to start.
Moving forward, Thomas is going to be the 6th man. In any long-range projections that have the Kings as a contender, Isaiah Thomas is not the starting point guard. Let him get acclimated to his role now, so that it doesn't become a problem when we're actually trying to win games.
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: Isaiah Thomas fits his role of 6th man perfectly; stop trying to make him into something that he isn't. Even if you think that he's one of our "best" players, Kings Fans need to free themselves from this false paradigm that your five "best" players "have" to start.
Moving forward, Thomas is going to be the 6th man. In any long-range projections that have the Kings as a contender, Isaiah Thomas is not the starting point guard. Let him get acclimated to his role now, so that it doesn't become a problem when we're actually trying to win games.
I disagree. He's not a head case like that. He didn't come into the season expecting to start and was probably surprised when they made the change to put him in the lineup that early.
I'd like to see him moved back to the bench for now, since he hasn't proved that he deserves it at all. He was playing much better before, off the bench.
I start Salmons at the two, for defensive priority. He's much more effective at shooting gaurd with his length
I'd like to see him moved back to the bench for now, since he hasn't proved that he deserves it at all. He was playing much better before, off the bench.
I start Salmons at the two, for defensive priority. He's much more effective at shooting gaurd with his length
I'm with all the keep IT as a 6th man crew. For me it's simple, he needs to be 5 inches taller to have a chance guarding opposing starting pgs, of which there are very many very good ones out there. And yes, I understand he is still a better defender than GV. There are just limits to IT, and always will be defensively. That's where IT fails as a #2. There are still two ends of the court. I think ITs numbers would be hurt trying to guard starting pgs.
This is not to say GV is the solution long term at pg. 12 games in, he doesn't look like a legit starting PG either. It was a long shot, and we are seeing why his 9.0 APG last year inspired New Orleans enough to go ahead and immediately find a replacement and ship him out of town. I fully acknowledge IT is better than GV.
Ignoring the long term and putting IT as starter to maybe get 3-4 more wins does no one any good. Then maybe being forced to move IT back to the bench later when a more suitable starter is found? I think you stick with where he is. Even if he ends up playing twice the mins as GV.
This is not to say GV is the solution long term at pg. 12 games in, he doesn't look like a legit starting PG either. It was a long shot, and we are seeing why his 9.0 APG last year inspired New Orleans enough to go ahead and immediately find a replacement and ship him out of town. I fully acknowledge IT is better than GV.
Ignoring the long term and putting IT as starter to maybe get 3-4 more wins does no one any good. Then maybe being forced to move IT back to the bench later when a more suitable starter is found? I think you stick with where he is. Even if he ends up playing twice the mins as GV.
Legit question, but from my seat I think first moving IT to start means that instead of having a sub-par starting PG with a top reserve, we would be starting an undersized, shoot first PG and bringing lack luster off the bench. As for that number 2 option you are looking for... yup we have a BIG problem there and at the moment the only answer I can see is by committee. Find the guy who is hot THAT night.
It's a catch-22. If you start IT, then when you need to give him a breather and bring in someone from the bench, who ya gonna call? Getting off to a decent start is great, but if you lose the start as soon as you go to the bench, what then?
We need to get our starters to work harder, to work in the first like they do in the third. Fix THAT problem, don't band-aid it.
We need to get our starters to work harder, to work in the first like they do in the third. Fix THAT problem, don't band-aid it.
As part of the starter's problems are with Ben, I think we need to focus on getting him comfortable with the NBA. Having IT in there might make some people happy but it might disrupt the development of Ben. IT will get plenty of minutes. I don't know why the push. I would understand if people could play 48 minutes per game but they can't.
Ok so you don't care about his scoring average, or how efficient he is, or how he's a better defender than GV, or how he almost averages the same amount of assists, or how he plays at the end of every game, or how we always come back at the end of games with him on the floor...or how the team is just better with him playing.
Who cares about all of that nonsense! He's a 6th man on a bad team at best right? And what is this false paradigm that your five best players have to start? Should we bring Cousins off the bench so he can dominate the backup centers of the league?
Starting IT right now will not hurt anyone or anything in the future. Who's to say were even going to get a better PG in the next year or so? The IT that's playing this year is not the same IT from the last couple. He's sharing the ball better, scoring at an elite pace, playing better defense and just generally making the team better when he's on the court. The guy is 5th in the league in points per 48min. He's up there with Lebron and Durant and you want this guy coming off the bench for the Kings? You gotta be kidding me.
Until we get someone better, you start him if you want a better chance of winning.
Who cares about all of that nonsense! He's a 6th man on a bad team at best right? And what is this false paradigm that your five best players have to start? Should we bring Cousins off the bench so he can dominate the backup centers of the league?
Starting IT right now will not hurt anyone or anything in the future. Who's to say were even going to get a better PG in the next year or so? The IT that's playing this year is not the same IT from the last couple. He's sharing the ball better, scoring at an elite pace, playing better defense and just generally making the team better when he's on the court. The guy is 5th in the league in points per 48min. He's up there with Lebron and Durant and you want this guy coming off the bench for the Kings? You gotta be kidding me.
Until we get someone better, you start him if you want a better chance of winning.
Disrupt what development? Until Ben develops some decision making and ball handling skills, he's not going to amount to much other than a spot up shooter. Changing the PG he plays with is not going to disrupt that. Ben seems like the kind of kid that is happy to just be playing the game. You aren't going to ruin him by sending him back to the bench. He's played a ton of minutes with IT and GV and it really doesn't matter who his PG is, he plays basically the same every time.
One thing. He started last year! 62 games. His numbers are up across the board off the bench. Including mins. So when I said, "I think ITs numbers would be hurt trying to guard opposing PGs," look no further than last season. Sure, he's better now than then statistically. Small sample size with an absurd amount of home games, for one thing. I think his numbers will drop as the road games pile up, last night being an example. He'll crash to earth.
Please don't mention him in the same sentence as Durant and Lebron. He's not up there with them in any way shape or form. No one plays 48 mins a game. THe lakers tried with Kobe last season, and then he broke.
You're also missing the part where winning a couple more games is not the goal.
I think IT can be a good 6th man on a good team. So we play him there until we find a good team. His role is set. It's the surrounding pieces that need work.
Please don't mention him in the same sentence as Durant and Lebron. He's not up there with them in any way shape or form. No one plays 48 mins a game. THe lakers tried with Kobe last season, and then he broke.
You're also missing the part where winning a couple more games is not the goal.
I think IT can be a good 6th man on a good team. So we play him there until we find a good team. His role is set. It's the surrounding pieces that need work.
All of that, ALL of it, takes a hit if he goes back to starting. Teams gameplan against starters. Starters face stars full time. We weren't competitive last year with IT as a starter, and he tried to turn every game into a stupid track meet. He's got a niche. Sometimes you just have to know what it is.
What we really need to do is what it sounds like the front office is trying to do: get a 2nd scorer in that starting lineup next to Cuz. Trade for one at SF presumably. Do that, and Grevis is all of a sudden a facilitator rather than a guy who can't score enough.
What we really need to do is what it sounds like the front office is trying to do: get a 2nd scorer in that starting lineup next to Cuz. Trade for one at SF presumably. Do that, and Grevis is all of a sudden a facilitator rather than a guy who can't score enough.
I think you guys have forgotten that we had Keith Smart coaching the team last year. Quite possibly the worst coach anyone here has ever seen before. We would have done better if Keith Sweat was coaching the team.
I don't care what IT did last year. We had no offensive system at all and basically just played school yard basketball every game. This year we have a system and the players who can shoot are flourishing in it. IT is playing under control while still getting his points. He's feeding Cousins under the basket and taking things into his own hands rather than attempting to find the John Salmons of the world for open shots.
You guys don't understand how bad Vasquez is. He's as bad at defending as Keith Smart was at coaching. The guy is a revolving door at the 3 point line. Steve freakin Blake can blow by him at will. He is half the reason why Cousins can't stay on the floor and is always in foul trouble. He's the reason why other teams are shooting an insane 3 point percentage against us. He's absolutely useless on one side of the court. He makes Jimmer look like Toney Douglas defensively out there.
People need to stop thinking of Thomas as just a run and gun kind of guy. Every player on the team was run and gun under Smart. Judge his play from this season on and don't dwell on how he played under a terrible embarrassment of a coach.
I don't care what IT did last year. We had no offensive system at all and basically just played school yard basketball every game. This year we have a system and the players who can shoot are flourishing in it. IT is playing under control while still getting his points. He's feeding Cousins under the basket and taking things into his own hands rather than attempting to find the John Salmons of the world for open shots.
You guys don't understand how bad Vasquez is. He's as bad at defending as Keith Smart was at coaching. The guy is a revolving door at the 3 point line. Steve freakin Blake can blow by him at will. He is half the reason why Cousins can't stay on the floor and is always in foul trouble. He's the reason why other teams are shooting an insane 3 point percentage against us. He's absolutely useless on one side of the court. He makes Jimmer look like Toney Douglas defensively out there.
People need to stop thinking of Thomas as just a run and gun kind of guy. Every player on the team was run and gun under Smart. Judge his play from this season on and don't dwell on how he played under a terrible embarrassment of a coach.
Except that this is not quite true. In fact, Thomas may be the only returning player (in the rotation) whose game hasn't changed under Malone. He doesn't play within the flow of the offense, he plays within the flow of Isaiah Thomas: he still passes when he feels like it, he still shoots when he feels like it. He still takes (or doesn't take) the same shots that he did under Smart. He still makes (or doesn't make) the same passes that he did under Smart.
He's only under control in the sense that Malone is controlling his minutes more judiciously than Smart did, so that Thomas only gets to be Thomas when that's what Malone wants. A player like Thomas has to be harnessed in order to maximize his abilities, and that's what Malone has done, by making him the sixth man.
He's only under control in the sense that Malone is controlling his minutes more judiciously than Smart did, so that Thomas only gets to be Thomas when that's what Malone wants. A player like Thomas has to be harnessed in order to maximize his abilities, and that's what Malone has done, by making him the sixth man.
When IT is on the floor with the bench, he plays a little more like he used to. Which is great. There's no reason to give the ball to inferior players when you are efficient at scoring yourself. When he's on the floor with Cousins, he plays the way he should with a better player on the floor.
I'm all for tanking and getting a high draft pick but for those of you still holding out hope on the season, why would you continuously want to watch this team go down by 10+ points and then have IT bring them back just to the point of failure? I'd rather just use the best players and not get down by that much in the first place so they don't have to strike a comeback nearly every game. Almost every time this team has come back it's been on the coat tails of IT.
I'm all for tanking and getting a high draft pick but for those of you still holding out hope on the season, why would you continuously want to watch this team go down by 10+ points and then have IT bring them back just to the point of failure? I'd rather just use the best players and not get down by that much in the first place so they don't have to strike a comeback nearly every game. Almost every time this team has come back it's been on the coat tails of IT.