What Realistically can be done to improve?

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#31
I hardly feel as though I am "cursing the inevitability of futility," my bitching simply comes from the perspective of a fan who has heard "Wait until next year!" one time too many, who had to listen to glass-half-full types continue to preach "In Petrie We Trust," even in the face of three and four and five and six straight years of losing. To borrow from the inimitable Stone Cold Steve Austin, my attitude is now D.T.A.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#32
I hardly feel as though I am "cursing the inevitability of futility," my bitching simply comes from the perspective of a fan who has heard "Wait until next year!" one time too many, who had to listen to glass-half-full types continue to preach "In Petrie We Trust," even in the face of three and four and five and six straight years of losing. To borrow from the inimitable Stone Cold Steve Austin, my attitude is now D.T.A.
Yeah, this is basically my attitude as well. I know the talent is there in this draft, but I'm not going to pencil us in for an impact player until the draft is over and we see what we have. There have been too many misses in recent memory for me to fully embrace the draft as our potential savior anymore. Great if it happens, but we've been there done that for the last ten years and when the dust cleared, all that's left right now is Cousins and McLemore and another season near the bottom of the standings.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#33
I hardly feel as though I am "cursing the inevitability of futility," my bitching simply comes from the perspective of a fan who has heard "Wait until next year!" one time too many, who had to listen to glass-half-full types continue to preach "In Petrie We Trust," even in the face of three and four and five and six straight years of losing. To borrow from the inimitable Stone Cold Steve Austin, my attitude is now D.T.A.
I thoroughly understand as one of those glass half full types who have pestered you for a decade or so. :(
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#34
But, this time will be different, right? Just like it was supposed to be different the last time. And the time before that. Oh, but this time, we've got new people at the top, and we're staying in Sacramento, so it really will be different! Just wait and see!

Sure it will.

You know, the 2009 draft was pretty loaded, too. And we had two first round picks that year. And they're both gone, and all we have to show for them is Greivis Vasquez.

But, this time really will be different!

Sure it will.
Shhh, you're going against the party line.

But I agree, screw the lottery. It's rare to even get a guy who can help right away and that's if you're somewhat lucky with your pick and even more lucky to have the ping pong balls go you're way, which we never are. And we've been rebuilding for over half a decade. I'm not looking forward in any way to drafting our next great hope and waiting 2-3, maybe more years until that guy is ready, if he's ever ready at all.

The idea it's not even Thanksgiving and people are looking to the draft to save us is amusing. We've done this crap year after year and the 2nd best player we came out of this putrid half decade with had talent which wasn't recognized by PDA and his FO. When we go after guys like Landry and Vasquez, with all due respect to them, and don't make an effort to bring in a decent backup center and let Aldrich walk, let Douglas walk, don't move any of our mini-chuckers, I have little reason to think even if we got a good pick it'd be the right one, and I sure as hell won't get excited about that prospect in mid-Nov.

Maybe others are confident about PDA drafting for us but I have no reason to be, not with the moves he's made thus far. He's had opportunities to make us better and failed across the table. But I've felt that way since June, so shouldn't be any surprise I still feel this way.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#35
Shhh, you're going against the party line.

But I agree, screw the lottery. It's rare to even get a guy who can help right away and that's if you're somewhat lucky with your pick and even more lucky to have the ping pong balls go you're way, which we never are. And we've been rebuilding for over half a decade. I'm not looking forward in any way to drafting our next great hope and waiting 2-3, maybe more years until that guy is ready, if he's ever ready at all.

The idea it's not even Thanksgiving and people are looking to the draft to save us is amusing. We've done this crap year after year and the 2nd best player we came out of this putrid half decade with had talent which wasn't recognized by PDA and his FO. When we go after guys like Landry and Vasquez, with all due respect to them, and don't make an effort to bring in a decent backup center and let Aldrich walk, let Douglas walk, don't move any of our mini-chuckers, I have little reason to think even if we got a good pick it'd be the right one, and I sure as hell won't get excited about that prospect in mid-Nov.

Maybe others are confident about PDA drafting for us but I have no reason to be, not with the moves he's made thus far. He's had opportunities to make us better and failed across the table. But I've felt that way since June, so shouldn't be any surprise I still feel this way.
Cheer up. I don't agree at all. Not going to argue it.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#37
kings fans really need to hope this time will be different, because the previous regime left seven straight losing seasons and a terrible mess of a roster in their wake, making it very, very difficult to build a winner around demarcus cousins via the trade block or free agency. the kings' tradeable assets remain far and few between, and sacramento remains an undesirable location for impact free agents...

personally, i have a helluvalot more faith in the ping pong balls bouncing sac's way in a stacked draft class than i have faith that ranadive/d'allesandro/malone will be able to significantly improve the talent level of this team through trades/signings, and given the kings' recent lottery history, that's really saying something about how much of a challenge it will be to polish the kings' turds enough to bring back significant value in return, or to convince (beg?) a significant talent to sign on the dotted line. the point is, there are no desirable avenues...

nobody likes losing, but a basement finish brings the opportunity to draft parker, wiggins, randle, exum, smart, etc. are any of them guaranteed superstars? no, but a top-5 draft pick is hardly out of the realm of possibility for this team as constructed, and while there are no guarantees, it's hardly a stretch to say that drafting a talented young player like jabari parker or andrew wiggins fills an immediate need, makes this team instantly better, and positions the kings much closer to the playoff picture in the long term. but trading the kings' scraps for rudy gay, rajon rondo, or even omer asik? that's much less likely to occur, and also much less likely to have the long term impact in the win/loss column that drafting a potential all-star would have...

if one wants to be futile about the kings' chances of scoring in the upcoming draft lottery and/or retaining whatever talent they come away with, that's certainly fine, but one is unlikely to be pleased with any rebuilding strategy if that is the case. as you've pointed out, the previous regime traded omri casspi and then failed to extend tyreke evans' contract, leaving the new regime in the awkward position of having to decide whether or not they wanted to fork over a ton of money to retain the services of a player they did not have the opportunity to personally evaluate. they elected to let evans walk. i think it was a mistake, but he wasn't their draft pick, and it wasn't their fault that the previous regime had stunted evans' development...

that said, since the new regime was forcefully determined to engage in a rebuild when they arrived here (their first go at it, but the kings' umpteenth rebuild in the last decade), then the prescription is simple: they must draft well, they must develop their young talent, and they must pay up when the time comes to re-sign their best players, while not overpaying for roleplayers. it's debatable about whether or not taking ben mclemore with the 7th pick constitutes "drafting well" (i certainly would have preferred MCW), but we'll have plenty of opportunities to see if this organization can effectively commit to ben's development. we'll also see what the 2014 draft brings, and whether or not the new regime continues to insist on overpaying for role players, as they accomplished with the carl landry signing...

again, kings fans had better hope things will be different this time around, because that's just about all there is to hope for. and this is coming from a fan who has made a point of expressing both suspicion and discontent regarding some of the moves made once the new regime took over. you're certainly not the only one who remains unconvinced of their capability, but it seems foolish to curse the inevitability of futility before this regime has had a chance to... well, accomplish much of anything. they deserve a grace period, however brief, to attempt to bring in more talented players...
Well said, wordsmith.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#38
Well said, wordsmith.
Padrino is pretty good. :rolleyes: Beyond being a wordsmith, he understands NBA basketball and the Kings in particular. Unless a poster has watched a few of these young college guys play they should hold off on judgment concerning the excitement. I can understand that very few on this forum have watched these college guys play because it is early in the season. I share rainmaker's lack of faith in the FO, BTW, but I doubt they can screw this up. Unfortunately, PDA has proven nothing.

I just watched part of a half of basketball where Marcus Smart, probably around #6 or so on people's depth chart, just scored almost 30 pts. in a half. I am not advocating drafting Smart but it shows you the depth of this draft.
 
#39
Long time fan Kings fan here (was a season ticket holder at the original Arco Arena!), and daily reader of this forum but never feel like I have anything worthy to contribute amongst all the high basketball IQ folks who post here. And I do not know what can realistically be done this year to improve my favorite team.

However, I took particular interest in Jerry Reynold's comment during the last broadcast about ex-assistant coach Brendan Malone's assessment of our team before he left. Essentially, he said this team does not have enough shooters. His primary concern was not defense, rebounds, the new ownership, his son as coach, a new arena, etc., etc. but simply the need for shooters.

His assessment seems "right on" considering how poorly the Kings have been scoring the ball since the start of the season. If I can be so bold, I even suspect his sudden decision to retire was because he did not want to endure a long, frustrating and losing season without some outstanding shooters! I hope the team in its current makeup proves him wrong but so far his assessment seems pretty accurate.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#40
Long time fan Kings fan here (was a season ticket holder at the original Arco Arena!), and daily reader of this forum but never feel like I have anything worthy to contribute amongst all the high basketball IQ folks who post here. And I do not know what can realistically be done this year to improve my favorite team.

However, I took particular interest in Jerry Reynold's comment during the last broadcast about ex-assistant coach Brendan Malone's assessment of our team before he left. Essentially, he said this team does not have enough shooters. His primary concern was not defense, rebounds, the new ownership, his son as coach, a new arena, etc., etc. but simply the need for shooters.

His assessment seems "right on" considering how poorly the Kings have been scoring the ball since the start of the season. If I can be so bold, I even suspect his sudden decision to retire was because he did not want to endure a long, frustrating and losing season without some outstanding shooters! I hope the team in its current makeup proves him wrong but so far his assessment seems pretty accurate.
Welcome to KF! Glad to have you join us.
 
#41
Long time fan Kings fan here (was a season ticket holder at the original Arco Arena!), and daily reader of this forum but never feel like I have anything worthy to contribute amongst all the high basketball IQ folks who post here. And I do not know what can realistically be done this year to improve my favorite team.

However, I took particular interest in Jerry Reynold's comment during the last broadcast about ex-assistant coach Brendan Malone's assessment of our team before he left. Essentially, he said this team does not have enough shooters. His primary concern was not defense, rebounds, the new ownership, his son as coach, a new arena, etc., etc. but simply the need for shooters.

His assessment seems "right on" considering how poorly the Kings have been scoring the ball since the start of the season. If I can be so bold, I even suspect his sudden decision to retire was because he did not want to endure a long, frustrating and losing season without some outstanding shooters! I hope the team in its current makeup proves him wrong but so far his assessment seems pretty accurate.
I commented on this in another thread. The only shooter we have at the moment without any hangups with his game is IT. Mclemore can obviously shoot but he's still trying to figure out how to get open shots. Outlaw can shoot when his feet are set. Jimmer is our best shooter but if you give up more on defense than you get on offense, then you shouldn't see the court. Other than that, we basically have no shooters that can be relied on. Thornton and Salmons should be solid shooters but they are done for. Take a look at our glory years and we consistently had a team full of good shooters. Every year we'd pick up a Jon Barry, Jim Jackson, Vernon Maxwell, Damon Jones, Anthony Peeler or Eddie House that could shoot lights out. That's not even including our starters who could pretty much all shoot.

I think we need to get rid of Salmons, Thornton, Patterson and Jimmer after this season and then go from there. Replace 3 of them with shooters and 1 of them with a defensive minded player.
 
#42
Long time fan Kings fan here (was a season ticket holder at the original Arco Arena!), and daily reader of this forum but never feel like I have anything worthy to contribute amongst all the high basketball IQ folks who post here. And I do not know what can realistically be done this year to improve my favorite team.

However, I took particular interest in Jerry Reynold's comment during the last broadcast about ex-assistant coach Brendan Malone's assessment of our team before he left. Essentially, he said this team does not have enough shooters. His primary concern was not defense, rebounds, the new ownership, his son as coach, a new arena, etc., etc. but simply the need for shooters.

His assessment seems "right on" considering how poorly the Kings have been scoring the ball since the start of the season. If I can be so bold, I even suspect his sudden decision to retire was because he did not want to endure a long, frustrating and losing season without some outstanding shooters! I hope the team in its current makeup proves him wrong but so far his assessment seems pretty accurate.
Indeed. Shooting is absolutely crucial if you want to make any serious noise in the NBA. You'll notice the 2 finals teams last season consisted of an army of elite 3pt shooting to play off the stars. Here's a look at the top 3 teams this season:

SAS:
Danny Green- 44% (19-43)
Patty Mills- 52% (13-25)
Marco Belinelli- 47% (10-21)

Indi:
Paul George- 36% (20-65)
Lance Stephenson- 45% (18-40)
George Hill- 45% (9-20)

Miami:
LeBron- 51% (15-29)
Bosh- 50% (10-20)
Chalmers-50% (18-35)
Allen- 38% (14-36)
Cole-41% (7-17)
Lewis-47% (10-23)




With us, we actually have the hard-parts figured out. Cousins has stepped up nicely as a #1. IT has stepped up nicely as a #2. What's let us down has been the atrocious shooting numbers from everybody else. Outside of Ben and IT (and sort of Outlaw) we don't have anyone else hitting above 33%. That is no bueno, considering we're 13th in the NBA in 3pt FGA.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#43
We have no #2.

We have a #1. We have a 6th man. We get formidable about the time that IT is the 4th offensive option/gun. Third option if somehow we were to get a #1/#2 every bit as formidable as Cuz himself and create a defensive system around them. The OKC idea.

You squint real hard and are a glass is not only half full, its flat overflowing person, you can say woohoo! Ben grows into his role, we draft Parker, we're ready! More realistically it may be a while. In fact would be even if we had all those players just because of youth.
 
#44
We have no #2.

We have a #1. We have a 6th man. We get formidable about the time that IT is the 4th offensive option/gun. Third option if somehow we were to get a #1/#2 every bit as formidable as Cuz himself and create a defensive system around them. The OKC idea.

You squint real hard and are a glass is not only half full, its flat overflowing person, you can say woohoo! Ben grows into his role, we draft Parker, we're ready! More realistically it may be a while. In fact would be even if we had all those players just because of youth.
What's your definition of a #2? Because I'm not so sure how much more prolific IT could be scoring the ball so far this season.
 
#46
What's your definition of a #2? Because I'm not so sure how much more prolific IT could be scoring the ball so far this season.
i present to you, exhibit A, from this season:
jamal crawford - los angeles clippers, 25.8mpg, 15.8ppg (49% shooting), 2.3apg, 2.0rpg

i present to you, exhibit B, from this season:
isaiah thomas - sacramento kings, 27.7mpg, 17.9ppg (46% shooting), 4.7apg, 2.3rpg

despite posting between 15 and 20 ppg ten times in his career, crawford only has a single 6th man of the year award to his name, he's never been an all-star, and he's never been considered a legitimate #2 on the various teams he's played for, both winners and losers. he's a scoring guard who provides lift off the bench. it's what he does, and he does it very well, while also not being undersized at his position, i should note...

isaiah thomas is having a helluva year as the kings' 6th man, but much of that is due to the fact that he's also had to function as the team's de facto #2, and certainly doesn't represent the team's #2 of the future. if the kings are ever able to acquire that player, a true #2 talent with all-star potential, then it won't be necessary to throw nearly 28mpg at IT who, while a valuable asset, remains destined for a 6th man role in the nba, similar to jamal crawford...
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#47
What's your definition of a #2? Because I'm not so sure how much more prolific IT could be scoring the ball so far this season.
2nd All Star caliber player. We have no Cp3 to our Blake. no Westbook to our Durant. No Lee to our Curry. No Lillard to our Aldridge. no Harden to our Dwight.

But we do have a guy who can score in bunches as a 6th man, and if we were just less reliant on those points to actually win games we might get dangerous someday.

We've got a Nate Robinson, Jamal Crawford, J.R. Smith sort of deal going on. Its possible for guys like that to be your second leading scorer, but if they are actually your 2nd option its no compliment at all to your franchise.
 
#48
IT is no #2 unless your a bottom 5 team. I think he will be traded at the deadline allowing McCallum to get playing time while getting assits in return

Hopefully we get our #2 this draft a number of guys have superstar potential (parker, wiggins, exum) or star potential (randle and smart)
If we land 1 of them which would slide mclemore to a #3 scorer we would have championship potential.
 
#49
Isaiah is playing out of his mind right now, and while I do believe its a hot streak and he will come back down to Earth, he's produced like a legitimate #2 option so far.

The problems thus far have been 1) complete nothingness from so much of the rest of the team, 2) Defense, and 3) youthful mistakes. In that order.

But Isaiah? He's been ridiculous. I have reasons to doubt it will continue, but if it does? We have our #2 man. The issue is that he's getting about 8 minutes less per game than he should because of some deluded fantasy of a pass-first PG somehow helping Cousins more on offense than a legitimate second weapon (while getting eviscerated on defense, mind you).

Taking a look at the Per-36 stats of second options around the league thus far:

upload_2013-11-20_10-11-52.png

I didn't include San Antonio, Indiana or Chicago because none of those teams have a true second option.

Now, one of those 11 teams will certainly win the championship. So basically, the best teams in the NBA are either:

A. Winning with a second option playing about as well or worse as Isaiah Thomas right now.

or,

B. Don't have a second option at all.

Its certainly an interesting development. The usual 10 game sample size caveats apply of course, but its something to monitor over the course of the season. If I had to make a prediction, I would estimate Isaiah falls off to about 16 ppg on about .540 TS%. But if he keeps this up over the entire season? Forget about looking for your #2 scorer. 23 ppg and 6 assists per game on nearly .600 TS% is elite for a second scoring option.
 
#52
If IT wants #2 money, they'll show him the door. I don't think anyone in the FO is deluded into thinking IT is a future all-star, or anything more than a nice change of pace guard/6th man. In fact, they may be thinking Landry is the #1 option off the bench, not IT. In my view, he's putting up numbers cause there is no one else. Put him on any of those winning teams, he sure ain't the #2 guy anymore. Of that I am confident. Most of those teams he'd struggle to get playing time.

IT can certainly be a part of the future as a 6th man. Let's not be deluded into thinking he can be more than that. He is what he is. He's not the problem right now. But he's also not the long term solution as a #2 on a winning team.
 
#53
Isaiah is playing out of his mind right now, and while I do believe its a hot streak and he will come back down to Earth, he's produced like a legitimate #2 option so far.

The problems thus far have been 1) complete nothingness from so much of the rest of the team, 2) Defense, and 3) youthful mistakes. In that order.

But Isaiah? He's been ridiculous. I have reasons to doubt it will continue, but if it does? We have our #2 man. The issue is that he's getting about 8 minutes less per game than he should because of some deluded fantasy of a pass-first PG somehow helping Cousins more on offense than a legitimate second weapon (while getting eviscerated on defense, mind you).

Taking a look at the Per-36 stats of second options around the league thus far:

View attachment 4721

I didn't include San Antonio, Indiana or Chicago because none of those teams have a true second option.

Now, one of those 11 teams will certainly win the championship. So basically, the best teams in the NBA are either:

A. Winning with a second option playing about as well or worse as Isaiah Thomas right now.

or,

B. Don't have a second option at all.

Its certainly an interesting development. The usual 10 game sample size caveats apply of course, but its something to monitor over the course of the season. If I had to make a prediction, I would estimate Isaiah falls off to about 16 ppg on about .540 TS%. But if he keeps this up over the entire season? Forget about looking for your #2 scorer. 23 ppg and 6 assists per game on nearly .600 TS% is elite for a second scoring option.
Hey! Thanks for saving me the time. I was going to to do the exact same thing later today.

Anyway, I completely agree with everything you said. There's obvious sample size issues and there's that whole issue if he could continue his current rate of production with another 8 MPG. I usually don't trust P/36 for much, but this does give a good indication about how well IT is playing. He's essentially right been right on par with many players who are widely considered the best scorers in the NBA. I'll add a few things anyway

With regards to Padrino and his comparison to Crawford. I don't agree with it all. IT has made huge strides in becoming a better playmaker this year and is doing pretty well at it. Currently, he's 20th in the NBA with his AST% (a much better indicator than APG, because it takes minutes into account). His Assist opportunities (how many potential assists a player would have if the receiving guy made every shot) is at 11.1/game and currently ranked 24th in the NBA. Needless to say, these blow Crawford out of the water. He turns the ball over less than Crawford, despite having a higher USG%. And sadly, he actually grades out as a better rebounder than Crawford.

Now you might say "But Jamal! He can't play defense!" Well, that theory is being debunked by quite a few defensive statistics out there. Mysynergy grades him out as allowing 0.6 PPP (Points per possession) overall and allowing his opponents to shoot 28%. His opponent PER is 11.7 and the Kings have been 4 points better defensively when he's on the floor. Although, a lot of that might have to do with how bad GV has been defensively.

Anyway, I'm def intrigued if he can keep up this level of play.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#54
I think IT has made strides towards being a better distributor of the ball and seems willing and capable of solving the problem that drove me nuts. I have questioned his willingness and capability but I think Malone has intruded on his natural inclinations and IT is becoming a better player for it.
 
#56
Trade Patrick Patterson or MT and Jimmer for Jordan Hamilton. That's IF Denver wants any of those players.

Steal John Henson from Milwaukee for IT (since they seem to be getting ready to move to Seattle by trading and not resigning their players and cutting salaries).

Those are the two moves I would make without a question. Chances are though that the other teams wouldn't take those trades.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#57
Anyway, I'm def intrigued if he can keep up this level of play.
I'm intrigued by this: How much better can he be? What kind of player is he going to be in Year 5? That's good stuff about his D. It's continually underated. My eyeballs tell me so!
 
Last edited:
#58
Here's a question. Has anyone who makes less than one million ever been this productive? At least in the recent days of bloated salaries? Last decade? Anyone producing at his level?

We should be damn happy he is what he is. Best value in the nba? Possibly.
 
#60
Isaiah has certainly been producing like a 2nd option. The question is, will he keep it up playing more minutes and getting more attention? I don't think so, but if he keeps it up it may change how I see his value.