Kings vs Warriors - Summer League Game 2
- Thread starter nebs
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I think the problem lies in expectations. I think a lot of people here have very differing expectations of McLemore, and it would be helpful if people laid out what they expect of the young man. I personally think of him as the ultimate off-ball player. By ultimate off-ball player, I mean he would be great at slashing, finishing alley-oops, curling off screens, spotting up, etc.
I personally think he could be a third option WITH TIME AND DEVELOPMENT. Not to force the analogy because he wears the same number, but I always saw him as a Peja like player. He's a guy who could possibly net you 16-20 ppg while barely having the ball in his hands. I think he has more potential than Peja given his athleticism and defensive potential, but again, he needs TIME AND DEVELOPMENT.
So what do I expect out of him this year? First of all, I expect him to backup Thornton. I was surprised by many of the posters here claiming that we should start McLemore and have Thornton come off the bench. All I expect from McLemore this season is to come off the bench and give us 20 minutes a game working his butt off by slashing, coming off screens, and trying to free himself from his man to get some open jumpshots. I want him to work on gaining confidence in his jump shot IN THE NBA. I don't expect him to create off the dribble or run plays. He is simply an off-ball player who spots-up and knocks down a high percentage of his shots. On the defensive side, I expect him to be adequate. He was never a lockdown defender in college, but again, he's young and has the size and athleticism to be a good defender. Now it's up to him to buy into the defensive mindset. Hopefully Malone does a good job at getting through to him.
To sum it up, I expect him to be a 3 and D player this year with the potential to be a third option/off-ball scorer down the road.
I personally think he could be a third option WITH TIME AND DEVELOPMENT. Not to force the analogy because he wears the same number, but I always saw him as a Peja like player. He's a guy who could possibly net you 16-20 ppg while barely having the ball in his hands. I think he has more potential than Peja given his athleticism and defensive potential, but again, he needs TIME AND DEVELOPMENT.
So what do I expect out of him this year? First of all, I expect him to backup Thornton. I was surprised by many of the posters here claiming that we should start McLemore and have Thornton come off the bench. All I expect from McLemore this season is to come off the bench and give us 20 minutes a game working his butt off by slashing, coming off screens, and trying to free himself from his man to get some open jumpshots. I want him to work on gaining confidence in his jump shot IN THE NBA. I don't expect him to create off the dribble or run plays. He is simply an off-ball player who spots-up and knocks down a high percentage of his shots. On the defensive side, I expect him to be adequate. He was never a lockdown defender in college, but again, he's young and has the size and athleticism to be a good defender. Now it's up to him to buy into the defensive mindset. Hopefully Malone does a good job at getting through to him.
To sum it up, I expect him to be a 3 and D player this year with the potential to be a third option/off-ball scorer down the road.
I'm telling you all now, Mac is fine. You're all suddenly going crazy, like his jumper has turned into something in the mold of Outlaw's. His shot selection is good and his form is a pleasure to watch. At this point, he's just having trouble knocking it down. It happens to every shooter. He'll adjust soon enough.
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Ben McLemore is 20 year old, not turning 21 until next February.
Everyone relax, I suspect he'll be fine as backup to MT to start the season. He needs some time to adjust to the NBA like most young (really young) players. With his athleticism and hopefully desire to get better through hard work (which he's shown in the past) young Ben can still be worthy of the #7 pick. Have faith Kings faithful!
Everyone relax, I suspect he'll be fine as backup to MT to start the season. He needs some time to adjust to the NBA like most young (really young) players. With his athleticism and hopefully desire to get better through hard work (which he's shown in the past) young Ben can still be worthy of the #7 pick. Have faith Kings faithful!
And if these were the expectations placed on him by the organization I guarantee you people would not be questioning his potential as much as they are now. The whole problem is that you do not look to trade up in the draft yadayada with a top 8 pick to get a POTENTIAL third option. You do not say that a guy has the potential to be a superstar in the league and then blame the system for him not appearing special in summer league, against a bunch of scrubs. So here's the problem - if Ben is our #3 option, what happened to our #2 option? Is it going to be Marcus Thornton? Carl Landry? Vasquez??? Honestly the way I see it there's absolutely nothing wrong with Ben's game or his potential. It's the idea that the FO would look at that and annoint him as our next superstar that scares me.
How many NBA stars are only system players who are just great off the ball but can't create for themselves? Ray Allen and maybe Rip Hamilton are the only ones who would come close to fitting such a profile.
The issue is not whether Ben is a bust or not. The issue is whether his skillset will allow him to be the star that the team so desperately needs.
How many NBA stars are only system players who are just great off the ball but can't create for themselves? Ray Allen and maybe Rip Hamilton are the only ones who would come close to fitting such a profile.
The issue is not whether Ben is a bust or not. The issue is whether his skillset will allow him to be the star that the team so desperately needs.
I've mentioned before that Ray was actually a much better ballhandler than given credit for, and was half a PG at one time in Seattle.
We've of course had a couple of guys ourselves in Peja and Kevin, who like Rip were able to be....well third option types masquerading as 2nds. But the thing is that those three guys, and Reggie Miller before them, had a real gift at off the ball movement. Not just good off the ball movement, but elite off the ball movement that is kind of a skill itself and allowed them to succeed despite limited ball skills. We haven't seen that yet either from Ben, and of course you can see now where the rep for "disappearing" in college would come from. Of course you would have a tendency to disappear if you can't create for yourself. If you're out of rhythm or not able to get open, your options quickly become limited.
We've of course had a couple of guys ourselves in Peja and Kevin, who like Rip were able to be....well third option types masquerading as 2nds. But the thing is that those three guys, and Reggie Miller before them, had a real gift at off the ball movement. Not just good off the ball movement, but elite off the ball movement that is kind of a skill itself and allowed them to succeed despite limited ball skills. We haven't seen that yet either from Ben, and of course you can see now where the rep for "disappearing" in college would come from. Of course you would have a tendency to disappear if you can't create for yourself. If you're out of rhythm or not able to get open, your options quickly become limited.
That is the bizarre part, what exactly did our FO see that they were so aggressively looking to trade up for?
To answer twslam's question, I think a lot of folks bought into the national hype that this kid could be the talent of this draft and were therefore looking for some type of potential perennial all star talent. If I take a step back and realize the kid was just a 7th pick in an incredibly weak draft that has the potential to be a quality role player down the line, I can level my expectations.
To answer twslam's question, I think a lot of folks bought into the national hype that this kid could be the talent of this draft and were therefore looking for some type of potential perennial all star talent. If I take a step back and realize the kid was just a 7th pick in an incredibly weak draft that has the potential to be a quality role player down the line, I can level my expectations.
Frankly, I think Ben could have used another year of seasoning in college. He looks so green out there compared to Ray McCallum who came out as a junior. While Ben needs to get better handles if he wants to be a star, at the moment he doesn't really need to dribble that well to help the team. He however needs to learn to use pump fakes better to get open. Opposing players will respect his shot, so the pump fake could be a great weapon. Shoot, pump fake, and slash. If he could get that down this year, then I'm happy.
That is not true.
Derrick Williams (2nd pick) = 15 starts/66 games
Enes Kanter (3rd pick) = 0 starts/66 games
Tristan Thompson (4th pick) = 25 starts/60 games
Jan Vesely (6th pick) = 20 starts/57 games
Evan Turner (2nd pick) = 14 starts/78 games
Derrick Favors (3rd pick) = 27 starts/78 games
Ekpe Udoh (6th pick) = 18 starts/58 games
Hasheem Thabeet (2nd pick) = 13 starts/68 games
James Harden (3rd pick) = 0 starts/76 games
Michael Beasley (2nd pick) = 19 starts/81 games
Kevin Love (5th pick) = 37 starts/81 games
Danilo Gallinari (6th pick) = 2 starts/26 games
As you can see, there are plenty of examples of top 7 picks that do not start the majority of the season, and you must keep in mind that we were drafting 7th in a draft that was considered weak so that doesn't bode well. Just looking at the players drafted before McLemore, I can't even say with confidence that all of those players will be starting on their season opener. Oladipo has Afflalo in front of him, there have been talks on Wizard forums that they would prefer Webster to start and have Porter come off the bench, Zeller has Jefferson and Biyombo in front of him, and Len has Gortat and Scola in front of him.
It is all relative. It really depends on who you have on your roster already. Thornton can easily be an adequate starting SG in this league. We might as well have a guy, who we know can perform, start for us while we baby our rookie and have him come off the bench. It's not always best to throw your 20 year old rookies into the fire and hope they pan out. You have to be delicate and groom them. I know many kings fans don't want to be patient and give them the time they need, but I am. I know patience pays off in the long run, and as a small market team, patience is a must.
Derrick Williams (2nd pick) = 15 starts/66 games
Enes Kanter (3rd pick) = 0 starts/66 games
Tristan Thompson (4th pick) = 25 starts/60 games
Jan Vesely (6th pick) = 20 starts/57 games
Evan Turner (2nd pick) = 14 starts/78 games
Derrick Favors (3rd pick) = 27 starts/78 games
Ekpe Udoh (6th pick) = 18 starts/58 games
Hasheem Thabeet (2nd pick) = 13 starts/68 games
James Harden (3rd pick) = 0 starts/76 games
Michael Beasley (2nd pick) = 19 starts/81 games
Kevin Love (5th pick) = 37 starts/81 games
Danilo Gallinari (6th pick) = 2 starts/26 games
As you can see, there are plenty of examples of top 7 picks that do not start the majority of the season, and you must keep in mind that we were drafting 7th in a draft that was considered weak so that doesn't bode well. Just looking at the players drafted before McLemore, I can't even say with confidence that all of those players will be starting on their season opener. Oladipo has Afflalo in front of him, there have been talks on Wizard forums that they would prefer Webster to start and have Porter come off the bench, Zeller has Jefferson and Biyombo in front of him, and Len has Gortat and Scola in front of him.
It is all relative. It really depends on who you have on your roster already. Thornton can easily be an adequate starting SG in this league. We might as well have a guy, who we know can perform, start for us while we baby our rookie and have him come off the bench. It's not always best to throw your 20 year old rookies into the fire and hope they pan out. You have to be delicate and groom them. I know many kings fans don't want to be patient and give them the time they need, but I am. I know patience pays off in the long run, and as a small market team, patience is a must.
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This is fair, and I agree with this. I'm not posting to defend the FO. I'm posting to defend McLemore. If our FO has superstar expectations for Ben then shame on them, but I do think he has potential to be a third option. Now when I say he has potential to be a third option, that doesn't mean I think we have our 2nd option already on the roster. In fact, I know we don't. We could have had our 1, 2, 3 punch with Cousins, Evans, and McLemore but that's no longer a possibility so it's on to the next plan...
In this draft you do. I can't think of one bona-fide stud in this class. We got a top 8 pick, sure, but he would have been #20 in last year's draft or #30 in next year's. If we get a role-playing 3 and D swingman who doesn't need the ball, that puts us one piece closer to a playoff team as long as we can find another star elsewhere.
The beauty of running a bunch of off-ball screens is that you tend to open up passing lanes for screeners. Having McLemore run through picks a la Ray Ray makes it easier to dump down into the lane for easy points when a big man switches to prevent the three. Golden state ran a lot of those plays last year for Curry and Thompson. I imagine Malone can set up something similar for us here.
No, you trade the pick or you just pick up another role player and hang on to the assets you have. Look I don't want to turn this into another discussion about Tyreke, but it's fairly clear to me that the FO views McLemore as Evans' replacement and more. Anyway let's just wait and see - hopefully things will start going better for Ben.
I wasn't aware that this draft was known to have star potential. Seems like it was common knowledge it was a very subpar draft and there probably wouldn't be many, if any, stars coming out of it. Can't recall people talking about this being like the Hakim/Jordan draft or the Durant draft or anything of the sort. If you really thought you were going to get a star from this draft, then you were misinformed.
as long as mike malone and his staff apply a nuanced approach to the offensive side of the ball, ben mclemore will get space during the regular season to hit the kind of shots he's capable of hitting. summer league has revealed nothing about him that we didn't already know. he's got a weak handle and can't create for himself, and until those factors change, he'll likely become a high level roleplayer in the nba, at best. now, for those of you who enjoy reading selectively, i said "likely." he's still got defensive potential that i'm hanging my hopes on, but from where i'm sitting, the kings added another shooter to the roster who, from game one, will be able to contribute little else...
i would also add that mclemore's struggles thus far only help to crystallize the reasoning behind the kings' pursuit of monta ellis. by letting tyreke evans walk, the kings put themselves at a lack for a legitimate second scoring option, and while they may be enthralled with mclemore to an absurdly hyperbolic degree, even the new regime recognizes that it would be detrimental to his growth to throw him over the fire in his rookie season. that said, i am not excited by the prospect of a vasquez/thornton backcourt. could there be a less impressive defensive pairing in the entire league? i hope PDA's got some tricks up his sleeve, otherwise you can file this season under "tank."
i would also add that mclemore's struggles thus far only help to crystallize the reasoning behind the kings' pursuit of monta ellis. by letting tyreke evans walk, the kings put themselves at a lack for a legitimate second scoring option, and while they may be enthralled with mclemore to an absurdly hyperbolic degree, even the new regime recognizes that it would be detrimental to his growth to throw him over the fire in his rookie season. that said, i am not excited by the prospect of a vasquez/thornton backcourt. could there be a less impressive defensive pairing in the entire league? i hope PDA's got some tricks up his sleeve, otherwise you can file this season under "tank."
In fairness, he's saying that the FO considered him to be the star. Everyone, up to, and during, the draft, pointed out that this year was essentially the role player's year (I guess a kind way of saying that it was absent of star talent.) Hell, they started talking about the 2014 draft before the 2013 even ended. The one thing Bilas said about McLemore is that, out of anyone, he had the potential to become an all-star.
Potential is a dangerous word. Coaches and GMs lose their jobs over potential. If anything, we'll see how hard of a worker McLemore is. He can't just assume it will come easily to him, or he'll spend time in the D-League, maybe bounce around, and find that athleticism only gets you so far. Or, he could surprise and show enough improvement to stay on the NBA roster, and better himself year after year. Unfortunately, the pressure is on the kid. It wasn't put there by the fans - we've known about this draft class for a long time, just as we know about next year's. It came from the FO. Yeah, it was their first draft, and yeah, they got a little excited, but you can't really blame them. It's like a kid's first Christmas. You love that gift like nothing else you've ever received before.
Maybe they're expecting next year's pick (unless it somehow stupidly goes to Cleveland) to be that #2 option, and by then BMc might be good enough to be the #3. I don't have the foggiest idea of what they're thinking in that regard, but we do need to realize that right now, McLemore isn't showing star potential.
Could it all change tonight? Maybe. We're all hoping that he shows some promise, and we're all hoping for improvement.
Potential is a dangerous word. Coaches and GMs lose their jobs over potential. If anything, we'll see how hard of a worker McLemore is. He can't just assume it will come easily to him, or he'll spend time in the D-League, maybe bounce around, and find that athleticism only gets you so far. Or, he could surprise and show enough improvement to stay on the NBA roster, and better himself year after year. Unfortunately, the pressure is on the kid. It wasn't put there by the fans - we've known about this draft class for a long time, just as we know about next year's. It came from the FO. Yeah, it was their first draft, and yeah, they got a little excited, but you can't really blame them. It's like a kid's first Christmas. You love that gift like nothing else you've ever received before.
Maybe they're expecting next year's pick (unless it somehow stupidly goes to Cleveland) to be that #2 option, and by then BMc might be good enough to be the #3. I don't have the foggiest idea of what they're thinking in that regard, but we do need to realize that right now, McLemore isn't showing star potential.
Could it all change tonight? Maybe. We're all hoping that he shows some promise, and we're all hoping for improvement.
Finished up the game last night, and yea - Marcus Thornton is the starting 2 next year if he's still here.
And that's not the worst thing in the world. The team will be better for it. He'll have a nice comeback season as a starter allowing us to trade him at the deadline or in the offseason if McLemore proves he can play, which he hasn't to this point.
And that's not the worst thing in the world. The team will be better for it. He'll have a nice comeback season as a starter allowing us to trade him at the deadline or in the offseason if McLemore proves he can play, which he hasn't to this point.
The FO said he was "the most talented player in the draft." To me, that infers he they think he has the highest ceiling of anybody in this draft. Does that mean he's going to be a star? No, it doesn't. If it's a crappy draft, there may be no "star" players. It also doesn't mean that he's going to be an instant success. It also says nothing of the risk associated with the pick. The "most talented player in the draft" can also be one of the riskiest. So all this "star stuff" is overplayed and overdone. It does nothing but set unrealistic expectations leading to the wailing and gnashing of teeth that we've seen on this board of late.
There's still a chance he will start. Right now he's the main focus of SL defense, and he's not ready for that, obviously. But with Cousins and Vasquez running PnR's, all he has to do is come off screens, spot up, catch alley-oops.
He has no bigs to work with in SL, and as great as Ray McC has been, Ray isn't hitting Ben in rhythm on offense, and the other guards are completely useless at passing. It's pretty much Ben's worst case scenario with the position he's been put in in SL.
I don't think his D is as bad as a few have mentioned. He'll probably be average there for his rookie season.
He has no bigs to work with in SL, and as great as Ray McC has been, Ray isn't hitting Ben in rhythm on offense, and the other guards are completely useless at passing. It's pretty much Ben's worst case scenario with the position he's been put in in SL.
I don't think his D is as bad as a few have mentioned. He'll probably be average there for his rookie season.
The thing is, he hasn't really been the main focus of SL defense. They don't game plan for specific players, they plan for overall schemes, when it is organized. Most times, it looks like streetball showcasing, and that is where you don't really give your catch-and-shoot player a chance. However, he's missed the open shots. It's not going to open up much more in the regular season - those guys are even faster AND they'll game plan to shut him down.
You're right though about pretty much everyone else on the squad. McCallum aside, it's an ugly roster. Almost fugly. I don't think anyone on that team is going to help give McLemore an open look by setting a few picks at the expense of showcasing themselves for a potential roster invite, so on that end, your point has merit.
As far as D - I haven't paid too much attention there. He does look active, and I'm sure Malone will get the most out of him.
You're right though about pretty much everyone else on the squad. McCallum aside, it's an ugly roster. Almost fugly. I don't think anyone on that team is going to help give McLemore an open look by setting a few picks at the expense of showcasing themselves for a potential roster invite, so on that end, your point has merit.
As far as D - I haven't paid too much attention there. He does look active, and I'm sure Malone will get the most out of him.