Young Five

I am just happy that there finally appears to be a rebuilding/youth movement underway.

I don't think it should have taken four years to put together five young guys, however.

And I think it could have been done without saddling the team with useless albatross contracts that make us long for the days of Webber's "unmovable" mega-deal.

But who am I to question, Petrie is obviously a genius, right?
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Short answer: depending on Thompson, lots of offense (if he is overwhelmed, a lot of scoring, but can be stopped when teams lock down). Defensively ruinous. Boardwork, highly questionable.

However, let's play a game:

I think that Beno and Cisco could be roleplaying starters on a team with a legit superstar to lead them (I also think Cisco could be a roleplaying 6th man on a similar team). I think Kevin will never be that superstar, but I think scoringwise at least he could be a #2 scorer to a legit superstar. I think, if we are lucky, that Spenser might eventually be able to become a Big Z type #3 scorer (take a few years). That's all optimistic, but basically what that leaves you with is the supporting cast of legit superstar...and one position for that superstar to play: PF. I do not know what Jason Thompson is going to be like. I do know (or at least feel very sure) that it was Thompson's guard skills in a big man body that helped impress Geoff. And further I know that we used to have ourselves another PF with amazing guard skills that ushered in the greatest period in franchise history. So let's play a game:

C- Hawes
PF- Webber (circa 2002)
SF- Cisco
OG- Martin
PG- Beno

That would just be the dream scenario -- that Jason Thompson blossoms in remarkable fashion and steps forward as that missing superstar. So THEN how would we look? What would we need?
1)We would be shaky on the glass -- Webbthompson would be the only exceptional person, we have skinny wings, and a shaky rebounding center .
2) Defensively...we would likely need a changup. Kevin is a poor defender, Beno is smarter on that end than sometimes given credit for, but quickness challenged against the darts, Cisco makes the spectacular plays, but also makes mistakes and will be givign away 30 lbs against many SFs (Ron included), Hawes, even in his prime, figures to be no better than adequate, and even Webbthompson has little chance to be a ferocious stopper -- you just hope he can hold his own and cover some ground. So you need a stopper/leader -- something like the Christie trade (and Bobby acquisition) in 2001. I'm thinking here the best target would be Cisco's slot because of his versatility and usefulness as a 6th man type. Trade for a defensive stopper of a SF (a sane one who does not need many shots), let the new guy play Christie to Kevin's Peja, swing Cisco to the bench as the versatile Hedo guy. And then you STILL need more defense. Specifically if Webbthompson and Hawes are the frontline, the first big of the bench needs to be Pollard -- big, fullsized PF/C banger. And the backup PG needs to be a tough and fesity defender ala Bobby.
3) Offensively, assuming the perfect Webbthompson sueprstar emergence, we are potent.

So my modified lineup then is:

C- Hawes
PF- perfect fantasy Jason Thompson who grows to Webber talent
SF- unspecified sane roleplaying, not shot munching, unselfish defensive stopper
OG- Martin
PG- Udrih

6th- Cisco
7th- unspecified roleplaying big ole PF/C banger
8th- unspecified roleplaying pesky defensive minded PG


At which point obviously we are back with a similar structure to the golden era teams.

Now in the real world, where Jason Thompson maybe has < 1% chance of becoming that superstar, our issues are greater, because we still need that guy. And to say they are hard to get wouold be an understatement.


You think the defensive SF could be Marion(lets say we deal Ron+Brad for him)? I know he's not the young guy we're all hoping for, but he's only 28. He's a great rebounder too so that helps and he can shoot so he still spreads the floor. He's not going to demand the ball to score either. His length(which is what makes him a really nice defender) isn't going to go away when he hits his 30s.
 
You think the defensive SF could be Marion(lets say we deal Ron+Brad for him)? I know he's not the young guy we're all hoping for, but he's only 28. He's a great rebounder too so that helps and he can shoot so he still spreads the floor. He's not going to demand the ball to score either. His length(which is what makes him a really nice defender) isn't going to go away when he hits his 30s.

Marion's actually 30, so I don't know how long he's gonig to be an elite player, particularly since he relies so heavily on his athleticism.

I like Brick's breakdown, and I agree that PF is where we most likely need the superstar, not least of which because we need both a star rebounder and shotblocker since Hawes is most likely always going to be at average or below in those categories. Amare Stoudamire and Chris Bosh go into free agency in 2010, and on the restricted side you have LaMarcus Aldridge

C: Hawes/Thompson
PF: Amare/Thompson
SF: Salmons/Cisco
SG: Martin
PG: Beno

I think the other possible scenario though is to have a dirty-work PF a la Ben Wallace or someone like that and a superstar SF. If Thompson can turn out to be that kind of a strong rebounder/shotblocker, we could try to fill the superstar quotient in free agency in 2010 in the small forward spot, where LeBron, Carmelo, Joe Johnson and then-old dudes Ginobili and Tracy McGrady, with restricted free agent possibilities: Rudy Gay and Brandan Roy

C: Hawes
PF: Thompson
SF: Gay
SG: Martin
PG: Beno

Even after signing a superstar there will still probably be some room to add another highly paid player or to fill out a strong bench. So at least hypothetically we're in pretty good shape so far.
 
I think the foundation from the 4 spot down is set, and construction has begun. But, the 5 spot is still short/slow/old/young/unathlethic(Brad/Hawes) or offensively challenged(Mikki). I think i forgot, inability to rebound consistently. That applies as well. All this means, over the grind of an 82 game season the center position is going to have a hard time pulling its' weight. And that means the other players are going to have to compensate, which detracts from their performance on a night to night basis. Brad Miller is still our best option at the position, but his performance over the last couple years has destroyed his confidence. All in all, if our 5 spot is still Brad Miller and Mikki Moore at the beggining of the season, the kings' chance of making the playoffs is 1:90.
 
did you miss the 07-08 season of Brad Miller? 13.4pts 9.5reb and 3.7 ast is pretty good for a center with 2 ppl scoring 20pts per game and 7 all together averaging over 10.

Short? Hawes, Miller, and Moore are all 7 footers.

I will give you lack of defense but, that wasn't one of your gripes. I don't feel anybody had to compensate for Brad last season.
 
did you miss the 07-08 season of Brad Miller? 13.4pts 9.5reb and 3.7 ast is pretty good for a center with 2 ppl scoring 20pts per game and 7 all together averaging over 10.

Short? Hawes, Miller, and Moore are all 7 footers.

I will give you lack of defense but, that wasn't one of your gripes. I don't feel anybody had to compensate for Brad last season.

Two words, one name, the person who has to compensate for Brad Miller is Geoff Petrie. And when was 13 9 and 4 a good stat line for a starter. Aren't those doug christie numbers? Overall, I appreciate what debilitation can do for us in the future and i hope we further debilitate ourselves for 09'-10' season; when our chances to make the playoffs are greatly enhanced by Duncan's decline, Amare's trade demand, Baron Davis's back, Portland looses all its good shooters, The Jazz loose AK47 back to Russia, and Denver starts to think fiscally when they should spend. This puts the Kings, Lakers, Houston*, Dallas, Memphis, Portland, Sonics, New Orleans in the WCP in no particular order for 2010.
 
13 9 and 4 is great for a center player with 2 guys that average over 20ppg. In fact it is probably the same stats Vlade had the whole time he was is Sacramento. In fact only 3 centers averaged more points than brad.

Brad Miller amongst NBA centers

points per game 4th
rebound per game 7th
assist per game 1st

and the best shooting Center in the NBA
 
The game is no longer defined by position. Position helps define a player. Amongst players who lack any other position, Brad Miller leads the the pack. But where does he fit next to Amare, Shaq, Rasheed Wallace, BEN WALLACE(Not j/k), Dwight H., Lamarcus Aldridge, Oden, Duncan, Chandler, and Brand? I would like to say, he fits under those players, because a lot of those players can play the 4 spot, and play it well. Brad is a soft 5, and im all for that, because i want a lottery pick, and it would be nice to have some options at the end of the year, instead of mediocrity. This guy is old and slow, soft and lacks vertical and horizontal quickness. I like players who can pass, but i appreciate a player who is proficient at "getting his". Brad doesn't know how to do that. Passing is not a redeeming quality in the NBA. Play making is, and i dont see the playmaker anymore. I noticed some folks were quick to defend this man, i would like to say, we traded scott pollard for this guy, how did we get away with this, if he's all that and a bag of chips?
 
The game is no longer defined by position. Position helps define a player. Amongst players who lack any other position, Brad Miller leads the the pack. But where does he fit next to Amare, Shaq, Rasheed Wallace, BEN WALLACE(Not j/k), Dwight H., Lamarcus Aldridge, Oden, Duncan, Chandler, and Brand? I would like to say, he fits under those players, because a lot of those players can play the 4 spot, and play it well. Brad is a soft 5, and im all for that, because i want a lottery pick, and it would be nice to have some options at the end of the year, instead of mediocrity. This guy is old and slow, soft and lacks vertical and horizontal quickness. I like players who can pass, but i appreciate a player who is proficient at "getting his". Brad doesn't know how to do that. Passing is not a redeeming quality in the NBA. Play making is, and i dont see the playmaker anymore. I noticed some folks were quick to defend this man, i would like to say, we traded scott pollard for this guy, how did we get away with this, if he's all that and a bag of chips?

well how conveinent to compare him to fomer MVP's, #1 draft picks and all but one of the last 9 championships but you asked and here they are

Brad Miller 13.4pts 9.5reb 3.7ast
Elton Brand 17.6pts 8.0reb 2.0ast
Rasheed Wallace 12.7pts 7.4reb 1.8ast
Ben Wallace 4.2pts 7.4reb 0.6ast
Shaq O'Neal 12.9pts 10.6reb 2.7ast
Tim Duncan 19.3pts 11.3reb 2.8ast
Amare Stoudamire 25.2pts 9.1reb 1.5ast
Lamarcus Aldridge 17.8pts 7.6reb 1.6ast
Tyson Chandler 11.8pts 11.8reb 1.0ast
Dwight Howard 20.7pts 14.2reb 1.4ast

Now theses were your pick players happens to be 10 how nice

Brad Millers rankings amongst YOUR top 10

pts 6th
reb 6th
ast 1st

judging by YOUR top big men looks as though Brad is at least the 6th best among them. Now I wonder of the top 5 how many had 2 players other than themselves average 20pts per game.
 
I don't know. Thats a good question. 5th huh? amongst 1st overall picks and Other All NBA caliber players....I may be eating the foot of this argument. But, statistics are just that. They help determine who is good and who isn't. But thats not the whole story. Overall record needs to be factored into this argument of 5th best overall player amongst players mentioned. And if im not mistaken, all those players minus elton brand made post season appearances. And if EltonBrand>Brad Miller then Brad drops directly under all aforementioned players. Aldridge automatically is ahead of brad because of youth and upside and talent. All this means is brad is the 10th-15th best big man in the NBA.
 
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most of us broke them down 1 by 1 because individually they dont compliment eachother. christie would be the perfect player to have around martin. if garcia became a better passer then maybe. overall our interior defense/offense is unproven. thats #1 on the list.

Huh? Garcia is probably the second best ball handler on the team. And yes, this list includes Miller/Hawes. When he's asked to handle the ball he does well, and when he's not he shoots. Garcia is a good roleplayer because he does what is asked of him and does it well.
 
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I don't know. Thats a good question. 5th huh? amongst 1st overall picks and Other All NBA caliber players....I may be eating the foot of this argument. But, statistics are just that. They help determine who is good and who isn't. But thats not the whole story. Overall record needs to be factored into this argument of 5th best overall player amongst players mentioned. And if im not mistaken, all those players minus elton brand made post season appearances. And if EltonBrand>Brad Miller then Brad drops directly under all aforementioned players. Aldridge automatically is ahead of brad because of youth and upside and talent. All this means is brad is the 10th-15th best big man in the NBA.

I wasn't trying to make an argument that Brad is top 5 or top 10. I was arguing the fact that you said the team had to compensate for Brad. As you can see that is not true. On a new note determining how good a player is by rather or not he went to the playoffs is insanely prejudice. Kevin Garnett hadn't made made the playoffs for a few years before joining boston Kobe Bryants lakers dipped into the lottery pool a few years back.

Now if you want to talk about compensation for our PF spot the last few years I will go with you on that but, RIGHT NOW Brad isn't the main concern other than his contract. I can handle his game for another year.
 
Short answer: depending on Thompson, lots of offense (if he is overwhelmed, a lot of scoring, but can be stopped when teams lock down). Defensively ruinous. Boardwork, highly questionable.

However, let's play a game:

I think that Beno and Cisco could be roleplaying starters on a team with a legit superstar to lead them (I also think Cisco could be a roleplaying 6th man on a similar team). I think Kevin will never be that superstar, but I think scoringwise at least he could be a #2 scorer to a legit superstar. I think, if we are lucky, that Spenser might eventually be able to become a Big Z type #3 scorer (take a few years). That's all optimistic, but basically what that leaves you with is the supporting cast of legit superstar...and one position for that superstar to play: PF. I do not know what Jason Thompson is going to be like. I do know (or at least feel very sure) that it was Thompson's guard skills in a big man body that helped impress Geoff. And further I know that we used to have ourselves another PF with amazing guard skills that ushered in the greatest period in franchise history. So let's play a game:

C- Hawes
PF- Webber (circa 2002)
SF- Cisco
OG- Martin
PG- Beno

That would just be the dream scenario -- that Jason Thompson blossoms in remarkable fashion and steps forward as that missing superstar. So THEN how would we look? What would we need?
1)We would be shaky on the glass -- Webbthompson would be the only exceptional person, we have skinny wings, and a shaky rebounding center .
2) Defensively...we would likely need a changup. Kevin is a poor defender, Beno is smarter on that end than sometimes given credit for, but quickness challenged against the darts, Cisco makes the spectacular plays, but also makes mistakes and will be givign away 30 lbs against many SFs (Ron included), Hawes, even in his prime, figures to be no better than adequate, and even Webbthompson has little chance to be a ferocious stopper -- you just hope he can hold his own and cover some ground. So you need a stopper/leader -- something like the Christie trade (and Bobby acquisition) in 2001. I'm thinking here the best target would be Cisco's slot because of his versatility and usefulness as a 6th man type. Trade for a defensive stopper of a SF (a sane one who does not need many shots), let the new guy play Christie to Kevin's Peja, swing Cisco to the bench as the versatile Hedo guy. And then you STILL need more defense. Specifically if Webbthompson and Hawes are the frontline, the first big of the bench needs to be Pollard -- big, fullsized PF/C banger. And the backup PG needs to be a tough and fesity defender ala Bobby.
3) Offensively, assuming the perfect Webbthompson sueprstar emergence, we are potent.

So my modified lineup then is:

C- Hawes
PF- perfect fantasy Jason Thompson who grows to Webber talent
SF- unspecified sane roleplaying, not shot munching, unselfish defensive stopper
OG- Martin
PG- Udrih

6th- Cisco
7th- unspecified roleplaying big ole PF/C banger
8th- unspecified roleplaying pesky defensive minded PG


At which point obviously we are back with a similar structure to the golden era teams.

Now in the real world, where Jason Thompson maybe has < 1% chance of becoming that superstar, our issues are greater, because we still need that guy. And to say they are hard to get wouold be an understatement.
I tend to agree with this. I think what we have done is compiled a nice collection of good young complementary pieces. What we really do need is that superstar (preferably at PF) and we have a very good team. A couple of more good pieces via draft or trade and we could well be back to being a legitimate, serious contender.

Getting that player is easier said than done but if we can keep adding some nice young talent, clear up some cap room and hopefully land that superstar PF via FA, then we could be well and truly on our way.
 
A line up consisting of

Pg: Udrih
SG: MArtin
SF: Garcia
PF: Thompson
C: Hawes

pros: aside from martin... the four players have no problems of passing the ball (by that i mean handling it passing to an open man dont get me wrong about ball hogging and stuff i didnt mean that) theres a lot of offense to go around in this line up, the entire line up can shoot and pretty quick in my opinion, its purely offensive i think we can run a little princeton with this line up assuming the bigs know when and who to pass to. so basically the game plan each night is to outscore the other team much like the kings of the early 2000s

Cons:
some of these guys have questionable rebounding abilities thompson has yet to play at the nba level and we dont know how it will translate to the pros, strength is another factor, any team with a bruiser can just bulldoze his way to the line up there revealing our other weakness in defense. most likely this team will run a zone D, not much man to man here

Wishful thinkings:
* if hawes manages to rebound at least 9 rpg and gains more muscle together with him improving his game
* Martin takes some of artest defensive prowess bulks up a little and puts a little assist to his game...
* udrih shows that he is worth 5.5 mil a year and explodes ala martin
* Garcia shows more hustle energy and control (this guy can be a leader i love how he plays)
* thompson proves to be a steal in the draft

i think this lineup will be good for years to come.
 
I am not sure if you will ever see that lineup. 1) Artest is still here and for some reason everybody is forgeting about John whom I think would start over Garcia.
 
well im just assuming artest is gone by the end of the season no doubt he will be shopped around....

as for salmons...

yeah he could start, an even better line up
 
I think the foundation from the 4 spot down is set, and construction has begun. But, the 5 spot is still short/slow/old/young/unathlethic(Brad/Hawes) or offensively challenged(Mikki). I think i forgot, inability to rebound consistently. That applies as well. All this means, over the grind of an 82 game season the center position is going to have a hard time pulling its' weight. And that means the other players are going to have to compensate, which detracts from their performance on a night to night basis. Brad Miller is still our best option at the position, but his performance over the last couple years has destroyed his confidence. All in all, if our 5 spot is still Brad Miller and Mikki Moore at the beggining of the season, the kings' chance of making the playoffs is 1:90.

You know, you people crack me up. First you argue that we should draft 18 and 19 yr old's because they have the most upside. Then, when the Kings actualy draft a 19 yr old, who despite his youth and despite starting maybe 6 games all year and missing training camp and getting a late start, was fairly impressive at times. But you and others have already labeled him. He's another unathletic, slow, can't jump, can't play defense white center. The kid might as well just throw in the towel and find another profession.

How would you liked to have been labeled at age 19 on what you had accomplished so far. On second thought maybe you should have been..

Miller has lost confidence. Did you bother to watch last year? He had the best year he has had in quite a while. He looked more like a player that had regained his confidence. Thats why I suggested that it was the right time to trade him. His value may never be any higher. I'm lost completely on the short part. Last time I checked, they were all 7 footers.
 
I can deal with his game too, but im not the one who has to live with it, Brad should live up to his potention every night, and that goes for the rest of us. Entity if you would let me concede this argument to you and allow me to comment on Bajaden's rant about how I might percieve Thompson. First i was talking about Brad Miller and Hawes, two slowish but highly skilled centers. I never said thompsonwas a bad pick(hes not) or he is unathletic(he is'nt). I labeled hawes because if he cant get past miller on the Depth chart, something is wrong with his game. Yea i did bother to watch last year, I noticed that we have a "7-footer"(Miller) who struggles to block shots on any other person but his man. That is bad. I want my center to be able to play goalie and get back to his man before it becomes an easy layup. Anyways, His trade value is not high, not as high as his value to our roster. For some reason, we need him, i cant figure out why. Entity knows why, something about Miller being a top10 Center. That is his only redeeming quality, he barely makes a top 10 for one position. If Brad played with his head and his heart, he could be the best center in the NBA. I'm just saddened by his decline. He's either doing too much or not enough. I think hes doing too much.
 
I can deal with his game too, but im not the one who has to live with it, Brad should live up to his potention every night, and that goes for the rest of us. Entity if you would let me concede this argument to you and allow me to comment on Bajaden's rant about how I might percieve Thompson. First i was talking about Brad Miller and Hawes, two slowish but highly skilled centers. I never said thompsonwas a bad pick(hes not) or he is unathletic(he is'nt). I labeled hawes because if he cant get past miller on the Depth chart, something is wrong with his game. Yea i did bother to watch last year, I noticed that we have a "7-footer"(Miller) who struggles to block shots on any other person but his man. That is bad. I want my center to be able to play goalie and get back to his man before it becomes an easy layup. Anyways, His trade value is not high, not as high as his value to our roster. For some reason, we need him, i cant figure out why. Entity knows why, something about Miller being a top10 Center. That is his only redeeming quality, he barely makes a top 10 for one position. If Brad played with his head and his heart, he could be the best center in the NBA. I'm just saddened by his decline. He's either doing too much or not enough. I think hes doing too much.

He is doing all he can for his ability. I never said Brad was the answer. Just that he is not the main problem RIGHT NOW. I will have to be addressed. Now Hawes didn't pass Miller on the depth chart because he was a rookie. Martin didn't pass Christie his rookie season or Mobley or Bonzi. Now who would you choose out of the 4? If Hawes can be as good as Brad was last year in the next 2 or 3 seasons then the center problem is addressed as long as he doesn't plain off. I would be adequate but not the type to push us over the top by himself. hopefully Thompson can. Will he this year? Hell no. Thompson being a senior does have less of a window than Hawes but he does still have a window. I'd give him 2 full years, if he hasn't performed well by then, it will be time to address the PF position yet again.
 
Like I said in the other thread the whole young vs old prospects isn't black and white, it depends on their games to determine how much potential they have. That being said, I think Hawes had more potential because he still had room to get a lot stronger; his game was based mostly on skills so his upside wasn't quite as high as say a Brandan Wright. Hawes maybe not able to get off the ground very well, but he is suprisingly quick laterally and he runs the floor well for a center I think. He's still not likely to be anything more than a slightly above average defensively at best, because he's limited athletically and he's not the longest guy out there although he has decent length (9'2 standing reach.) I don't think he'll be a liability out there with some work, but I don't think he'll be much of a strength either. He's a potential shot blocker though, if Bogut can become a 1.7 bpg player I guess Hawes can too, since Bogut only has about half inch on him with his standing reach.
 
So the Kings have a relatively young guy at every position, all of whom could potentially be roleplaying starters:

PG: Beno Udrih
SG: Kevin Martin
SF: Francisco Garcia
PF: Jason Thompson
C: Spencer Hawes

What are the strengths and weaknesses of this group (as a group)? What needs to be added from a basketball sense?

They need quickness - a LOT of quickness and athleticism. The only guy who has it above is Martin. They still don't have a point guard quicker than their 2-guard, which is what I would want ideally (unless they hit the jackpot with Singletary). Garcia is a good sixth man, but at the starting 3 they need someone long and cat-quick. Until I see Thompson on the floor and how quick he is, I remain somewhat skeptical of his athleticism, especially defensively. Hawes I really like as a player, but you need to surround him with four other guys who are really athletic to go far in the playoffs in the future. At the very least we need an upgrade in the pg and the 3 to be taken seriously.
 
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