Yi Jianlian's Chinese team to block him from playing for the Bucks
- Thread starter supamari0
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Amazing. But that has been the feeling I have gotten about this from the start. That its not so much Yi, as others who view him as a form of property.
The funny thing is, while I would SOMEWHAT agree with the Milwaulkee concerns, with both a young Villanueva and Bogut there, neither one of thse guys has been all that and a bag of chips, and Charlie V. has been injury prone to boot. If that's the new tack on their excuses, I mean, out of the lottery teams who they were approving/not approving: Atlanta had Marvin Williams and Zaza Pachulaia and Josh Smith, Memphis has Pau, but probably an open spot next to him, Boston has Al Jefferson, although I guess Yi could have played center, Minnesota had KG, although agian I guess theoretically you could put Yi at center, Charlotte had Okafor (adn Wallace), with the center note again, Chciago had Ben Wallace and Tim Thomas, and we had...well garbage, but lots and lots of garbage clogging the lineup up. If Charlie V. and Bogut are considered too big an impediment -- the single softest frontcourt in the league last year (even beyond us I think -- maybe Jersey was close) -- that's hard to see where this perfect place for him to play would be. Maybe its just because both of those players are young? Or maybe its just a line of hooey and the Milwaulkee as heartland whitebread factor was important as well.
In any case, what does this mean now? Does he come to a new team with them demanding PT for him as if the team is a farm club for them? Do they make trade demands on the team before they let him sign (i.e. as in trade away all the competition for minutes?).
All of this is going to make it increasingly difficult for Yi himself just to come in and be focused on playing basketball. And for his teammates and fans to accept him as such. Kind of got that feeling during SL too. He's a pawn and there is all kinds of pushing and pulling and stuff going on here that has to be immensely distracting/stressing. He kind of reminds me a bit of an old 60's boxer being managed by the mob or something. Would like to see him come over and for the worst nightmare of these particular gangsters to happen -- Yi catches free enterprise and tells them to go to hell.
P.S. Note here too, the odd conflation of the Guandong Tigers, who apparently are supposed to be "free", to whatever degree you can be in China, and the governmental interests. That should be a government minister saying that the primary concerns are the Olympics etc., not the CEO of Yi's former team. Maybe he had a few party officials sitting at home "visiting" with his wife while he gave the interview or some such.
The funny thing is, while I would SOMEWHAT agree with the Milwaulkee concerns, with both a young Villanueva and Bogut there, neither one of thse guys has been all that and a bag of chips, and Charlie V. has been injury prone to boot. If that's the new tack on their excuses, I mean, out of the lottery teams who they were approving/not approving: Atlanta had Marvin Williams and Zaza Pachulaia and Josh Smith, Memphis has Pau, but probably an open spot next to him, Boston has Al Jefferson, although I guess Yi could have played center, Minnesota had KG, although agian I guess theoretically you could put Yi at center, Charlotte had Okafor (adn Wallace), with the center note again, Chciago had Ben Wallace and Tim Thomas, and we had...well garbage, but lots and lots of garbage clogging the lineup up. If Charlie V. and Bogut are considered too big an impediment -- the single softest frontcourt in the league last year (even beyond us I think -- maybe Jersey was close) -- that's hard to see where this perfect place for him to play would be. Maybe its just because both of those players are young? Or maybe its just a line of hooey and the Milwaulkee as heartland whitebread factor was important as well.
In any case, what does this mean now? Does he come to a new team with them demanding PT for him as if the team is a farm club for them? Do they make trade demands on the team before they let him sign (i.e. as in trade away all the competition for minutes?).
All of this is going to make it increasingly difficult for Yi himself just to come in and be focused on playing basketball. And for his teammates and fans to accept him as such. Kind of got that feeling during SL too. He's a pawn and there is all kinds of pushing and pulling and stuff going on here that has to be immensely distracting/stressing. He kind of reminds me a bit of an old 60's boxer being managed by the mob or something. Would like to see him come over and for the worst nightmare of these particular gangsters to happen -- Yi catches free enterprise and tells them to go to hell.
P.S. Note here too, the odd conflation of the Guandong Tigers, who apparently are supposed to be "free", to whatever degree you can be in China, and the governmental interests. That should be a government minister saying that the primary concerns are the Olympics etc., not the CEO of Yi's former team. Maybe he had a few party officials sitting at home "visiting" with his wife while he gave the interview or some such.
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supamari0
Bench
I must say I didn't see this coming. My view was that his agent (and maybe Yi himself) were driving the whole process and it was more of a personal decision on their part to sabotage the process and get a trade.
With the club threatening to hold him out means a lot of things. First, it doesn't necessarily answer anything. The club very well may be cover to deflect blame from Yi and his agent (who by the way has been recieving flack in China for the way he's handled the holdout)
Or they could be pulling the same garbage that they did with Yao and use the holdout as a way to demand a huge payout from Milwaukee. Almost half of Yao's 1st contract went to the Chinese. Now I don't think Yao really cared and hence it was easy. Yao was the one who suffered because of that since he had to pay up. In this case, I'm not sure Yi wants to make that sacrifice.
Or even stranger, its a weird aligning of interests. Yi doesn't want to play in Milwaukee. The owernship of his former team wants money but isn't getting what they want from Milwaukee so they're also ticked off and hence a slight connection of differing interests.
And lastly, there's the question of how the Chinese government plays into this. They haven't said a word but it's no secret that the CBA in some ways is just a proxy for them and their interests. So there is the question of the government's influence and their wishes.
Either way I'm really really confused by this.
With the club threatening to hold him out means a lot of things. First, it doesn't necessarily answer anything. The club very well may be cover to deflect blame from Yi and his agent (who by the way has been recieving flack in China for the way he's handled the holdout)
Or they could be pulling the same garbage that they did with Yao and use the holdout as a way to demand a huge payout from Milwaukee. Almost half of Yao's 1st contract went to the Chinese. Now I don't think Yao really cared and hence it was easy. Yao was the one who suffered because of that since he had to pay up. In this case, I'm not sure Yi wants to make that sacrifice.
Or even stranger, its a weird aligning of interests. Yi doesn't want to play in Milwaukee. The owernship of his former team wants money but isn't getting what they want from Milwaukee so they're also ticked off and hence a slight connection of differing interests.
And lastly, there's the question of how the Chinese government plays into this. They haven't said a word but it's no secret that the CBA in some ways is just a proxy for them and their interests. So there is the question of the government's influence and their wishes.
Either way I'm really really confused by this.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well...
1) it could be posturing. Always that chance. Or just as likely, not pure posturing -- they probably really do NOT want Yi in Milwaulkee, but they could be posturing so as to allow for the possibility if the Bucks really grovel, meet all terms, and generally bend over and grab the soap.
2) much as I do not like agents (except for nbrans of course who is a "good" agent
), I've never understood where the "blame the agent" bit came form in this case. Just made no sense. This isn't a newbie agent, this is one of the biggest agents in the NBA. He's probably represeneted hundreds of draft picks, and so far as I know he's never demanded they go here or go there. So it couldn't be the agent being the main impetus.
3) Now it could well be the agent getting in bed with the even bigger bad of the Chinese gov't, and promising them that "let me represent Yi, and I promise I'll get him to a market you want." And I think when it comes to being unhappy with the agent, its actually not in the way that we are thinking of it. I think the Chinese fans are maybe unhappy with the agent like we are -- the American agent no doubt being scapegoated to protect Yi -- for acting in a way that could be considered dishonorable. But so far as the government/former team etc. being unhappy with him (and btw I get the feeling they basically hired him, and they will basically fire him -- not up to Yi) I think what THEY are unhappy with is that he hasn't delvered with the power play yet. They aren't unhappy he is holding out. They are unhappy he hasn't forced the trade yet. I could even go so far as to imagine a game where Fegan, who still has to work in the NBA after all this is done, might be the guy who is feeding some encouragement to the Bucks at a low level (so as to not be completely persona non grata there after all this) while at the same time turning around and telling the Chinese that they have to be more firm/clear/direct in their proclamations in order to convince the Bucks they are serious.
4) as for being confused...not so much. When you look at intersts here:
a) the agent has none. Or few -- depends on what degree their really would be extra marketing possibilities just based on local ethnicity. I mean..really? What's Yi going to do? Appear in commericals for local laundramats? How much money is there in that?
b) And Yi is a kid, and from overseas, who probably has never even been to half the NBA cities. If he's developed any stong feeligns against Milwaulkee its almost surely because of the people around him. Might have them, but I strongly suspect they were planted/encouraged by "advisors" who felt they knew better.
c) But the Chinese government from the start has viewed this just like the Soviets used too -- Yi is their property, and they are going to "allow" him out to gain experience in the NBA so that he can come back and do honor onto their dictatorship in the Olympics next season. They are the ones looking for minutes etc. And also of course like good despots anywhere, wanting to maximize Yi's exposure/immediate success so as to be able to use him as propoganda.
d) And the Guandong team..to whatever degree it is separate from the government, then it would have to be the one having an economic interest. Whether it be a "fee" or "buyout" -- which it would seem to be able to be able to get from any city, including Milwaulkee (and hence I cannot see the objection to the Bucks if all they want is to be paid up front), or a cut (as reported) of marketing money, where the city might matter.
1) it could be posturing. Always that chance. Or just as likely, not pure posturing -- they probably really do NOT want Yi in Milwaulkee, but they could be posturing so as to allow for the possibility if the Bucks really grovel, meet all terms, and generally bend over and grab the soap.
2) much as I do not like agents (except for nbrans of course who is a "good" agent
), I've never understood where the "blame the agent" bit came form in this case. Just made no sense. This isn't a newbie agent, this is one of the biggest agents in the NBA. He's probably represeneted hundreds of draft picks, and so far as I know he's never demanded they go here or go there. So it couldn't be the agent being the main impetus. 3) Now it could well be the agent getting in bed with the even bigger bad of the Chinese gov't, and promising them that "let me represent Yi, and I promise I'll get him to a market you want." And I think when it comes to being unhappy with the agent, its actually not in the way that we are thinking of it. I think the Chinese fans are maybe unhappy with the agent like we are -- the American agent no doubt being scapegoated to protect Yi -- for acting in a way that could be considered dishonorable. But so far as the government/former team etc. being unhappy with him (and btw I get the feeling they basically hired him, and they will basically fire him -- not up to Yi) I think what THEY are unhappy with is that he hasn't delvered with the power play yet. They aren't unhappy he is holding out. They are unhappy he hasn't forced the trade yet. I could even go so far as to imagine a game where Fegan, who still has to work in the NBA after all this is done, might be the guy who is feeding some encouragement to the Bucks at a low level (so as to not be completely persona non grata there after all this) while at the same time turning around and telling the Chinese that they have to be more firm/clear/direct in their proclamations in order to convince the Bucks they are serious.
4) as for being confused...not so much. When you look at intersts here:
a) the agent has none. Or few -- depends on what degree their really would be extra marketing possibilities just based on local ethnicity. I mean..really? What's Yi going to do? Appear in commericals for local laundramats? How much money is there in that?
b) And Yi is a kid, and from overseas, who probably has never even been to half the NBA cities. If he's developed any stong feeligns against Milwaulkee its almost surely because of the people around him. Might have them, but I strongly suspect they were planted/encouraged by "advisors" who felt they knew better.
c) But the Chinese government from the start has viewed this just like the Soviets used too -- Yi is their property, and they are going to "allow" him out to gain experience in the NBA so that he can come back and do honor onto their dictatorship in the Olympics next season. They are the ones looking for minutes etc. And also of course like good despots anywhere, wanting to maximize Yi's exposure/immediate success so as to be able to use him as propoganda.
d) And the Guandong team..to whatever degree it is separate from the government, then it would have to be the one having an economic interest. Whether it be a "fee" or "buyout" -- which it would seem to be able to be able to get from any city, including Milwaulkee (and hence I cannot see the objection to the Bucks if all they want is to be paid up front), or a cut (as reported) of marketing money, where the city might matter.
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Is anyone actually surprised by this? If a guys agent goes through all the trouble to let his player only workout for certain teams, and there is a government behind hte player saying they want him to go to certain places.
Then Milwaukee takes him, and he does pretty much exactly what his agent/handlers had said or at least had implied indirectly.
Is Milwaukee surprised? They had better not be, because clearly they didnt do their homework on Yi.
The Bucks Gm basically took Yi because his daddy Del Harris told him to. Simple as that. Brandan Wright would ahve been a better fit for them if they really wanted to go PF and put Villanueva at SF, but they chose to set themselves up for failure which is another reason why they are the Bucks. It's not like an international player has never sat out, we just had to hear how Franny from Spain refuses to come over to the US.
Philosphical ideology aside that doesn't really have much to do with it. Is it right that Yi is doing this, in terms of the long term effect ? no its not.
Was it right when Kobe forced a trade from the Hornets to the Lakers, and therefore started the intense hate I have for Kobe and still have to this day? hell no it wasn't but he had the choice to sit out or just go play in europe so he forced their card.
anyways, pretty much my opinion the Bucks didnt do any background work at all, Del Harris told his son, or whatever the relation is, to take Yi and the kid did, apparently based only on that recommendation. I just think the Bucks are stupid, and these are the kinds of things that continually hamper bad sports franchises.
Then Milwaukee takes him, and he does pretty much exactly what his agent/handlers had said or at least had implied indirectly.
Is Milwaukee surprised? They had better not be, because clearly they didnt do their homework on Yi.
The Bucks Gm basically took Yi because his daddy Del Harris told him to. Simple as that. Brandan Wright would ahve been a better fit for them if they really wanted to go PF and put Villanueva at SF, but they chose to set themselves up for failure which is another reason why they are the Bucks. It's not like an international player has never sat out, we just had to hear how Franny from Spain refuses to come over to the US.
Philosphical ideology aside that doesn't really have much to do with it. Is it right that Yi is doing this, in terms of the long term effect ? no its not.
Was it right when Kobe forced a trade from the Hornets to the Lakers, and therefore started the intense hate I have for Kobe and still have to this day? hell no it wasn't but he had the choice to sit out or just go play in europe so he forced their card.
anyways, pretty much my opinion the Bucks didnt do any background work at all, Del Harris told his son, or whatever the relation is, to take Yi and the kid did, apparently based only on that recommendation. I just think the Bucks are stupid, and these are the kinds of things that continually hamper bad sports franchises.
But let's say Sacramento was not on the approved list and Yi was available at the time we were picking, would it be stupid of us to pick him? Alot of people around here would he calling for Petrie's head if we passed up the opportunity to get Yi just because whoever didn't "approve" us.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Yep, but its a gamble you have to win. And if your GM takes it, it has to be because he's done his homework and decided he can close the deal. You get a pick that high, with major talents still on the board, you can't burn yourself. This could be a huge setback for the Bucks. And this one in particular -- its different in some ways form any of the other recent ones -- Francis, Kobe, Manning etc. etc. becuase of the presence of the monolithic Chinese government back there. When you're just dealing with a punk kid, or even a punk kid and his family (Manning), then the agent is likely the only thing propping them up for a head to head clash with an NBA franchise. But when you've got this enormous entity used to getting its way and treating its people like chattel, you've really got to have done your homework, because you aren't going to be the big dog in any negotiations.
And the way the Bucks went about this...it just really did speak to lack of foresight/preparation. It was almost impulsive. Careless.
we were invited to the workout. we are close by one of the biggest chinese populations in probably the country in SF. Sac also has a big chinese population. Were a short plane trip from LA where Yi currently stays. How are we not "Approved"?
You missed "let's say" part in my first sentence. I was speaking hypothetically if we were not one of the approved teams.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
If there was still good players left to pick then yes it would be pretty stupid. If there wasn't much left on the board then no it wouldn't be stupid because even if you had to trade him you could probably get more than what you would've gotten had you not picked him. If we passed up Brandan Wright for Yi and we knew before the draft he didn't want to come here then yes that would be cause for GM decapitation.
well we don't have a #1 pick at Center, and we dont have a top 10 pick at PF/SF now do we. Sure our fans would have been pissed, but we actually needed a bigman and the Bucks, well not so much.
yes well he stated he would only play for LA, the Hornets I guess either already had a deal in place to get Vlade or I dont think they would have taken him. Although its not hard to imagine they saw how good Kobe was took him, and then realized just how set he was on not playing there so they traded him. Either way I hate Kobe.
Bottom line for me is that this is looking more and more like a situation I don't want the Kings to have any part of... If Yi is caught in the middle, I feel sorry for him but our team has had enough problems. Let someone else fight the noble fight against his national team.
Geoff
Starter
I'm on the Buck's side in this. No one forced Yi into the draft, and his entrance makes him available to all teams according to the rules. The main question is "Does he want to play basketball in the NBA, or doesn't he?" Patience is a heck of a thing. Who knows if maybe his presence there would HELP China, by providing exposure to an underserved market? If this is the Chinese government stepping in, well I still don't think the Bucks should cave in. You can't make him play for you, and you can trade him or so; but I wouldn't waste time trying to convince anyone of anything.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I think its more and more obvious that whoever does end up with his rights is going to have to be pretty sure before trading for him that they've already got the green light. Wouldn't expect there to be any speculators market here -- first calls of interest might well in fact go to the agent than to the Bucks, who are just kind of hapless and almost irrelevant at this point.
bozzwell
Starter
Yes, and when the calls come in from few pre-approved teams with low ball offers (a. there will be only few green lighted teams and b. why would they offer anything of equal or near-equal value?) why would Bucks NOT stand firm and take their lumps?
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
May come to that. But when you are beginning to face down the real possibility of just losing a high lottery pick for nothing -- a whole year of losing for nothing, almost like what happened to the Celtics with Len Bias -- it would behoove you to start using a slider bar on "low ball". Much as I have said that I habitually root for the teams involved in these things to play hardball and screw the little ****s refusing to play for them, pressing this to the point where you legitimately end up with nothing at all is not doing right by your team or fans. I mean, I would be willing to bet if they went to the Warriors tommorow and said we'll trade you Yi's rights for Patrick OBryant (last year's #9 pick) and Mikael Pietrus, I bet they would do it. That's not nothing (depedning of course whetehr O'Bryant is going to work out or not).
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TaxMan
Starter
I agree. I don't think this is a situation where Yi ever gives in if the Bucks play hardball. For example, Jimmy Jackson threatened the Mavs years ago that he would sit out a year and re-enter the draft, but you knew it was only about money (pre the fixed rookie salary structure.) You can play hardball for a while in that situation, but always know you can give in, up the contract offer, and get the player. In this situation, there is nothing to give in. He will sit out all year.
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
Well the upside for the Kings is that we were on the aproved list, I am not sure at all tha GP was all that interested in Yi to start with and he can't be to thrilled about him now. I would also hope that before he (or any other GM) made the Bucks an offer they were sure not only that Yi would play for them but that the bozo's in Bejing had no crap to load into the contract. You would also have to assume that once you contracted with Yi that trading him would be difficult at best. While not a deal killer at all, these are considerations. Given Yi's tallent level and the Bucks desperation to get SOMETHING for him it may well be a risk worth taking, but maybe not and I suspect GP figgures he already has enough problems on his hands with out walking into one more.
I can see the Bucks going either way on this. Most teams would try to cut their losses and take the first even close to reasonable offer, but when your owner is a US Senator he may find it more important to his immage to "not let the Chinese get away with this." And yes I think the Tigers are simply presenting a front for party officials who have their own reasons for not wnating Yi in Mil. that have NOTHING to do with the Chinese population of the city.
I can see the Bucks going either way on this. Most teams would try to cut their losses and take the first even close to reasonable offer, but when your owner is a US Senator he may find it more important to his immage to "not let the Chinese get away with this." And yes I think the Tigers are simply presenting a front for party officials who have their own reasons for not wnating Yi in Mil. that have NOTHING to do with the Chinese population of the city.
TaxMan
Starter
At a minimum I would think they will be asking for a future 1st. Considering there is a good chance that our first next year could be top 5, we need to be pretty confident Yi is as good as any prospect next year (or have some sort of protection on the pick).
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
I'm not so sure. Like I siad I can see a situation where the Senator quietly tells the team no deal at all, it makes him look tough. On the other hand it's buisens and his immage is insulated by the teams management, so more likely they will try to get what they can for him and if that is the case they are hardly in a position to demad an unprotected 1st round pick, Yi CLEARLY comes with baggage and that baggage will severly limit the teams who even CAN trade for him as well as the teams that WILL trade for him. The kid has tallent but with a limited exposure against NBA level players, he is far from a sure thing so in the end you have a buyers market for his servies where the price is dicatated by what teams are willing to pay not what the Bucks are willing to take.
TaxMan
Starter
True, those are good points. Given the junk on our roster, unless they want to exchange a lot of their junk along with Yi, we don't have much to offer other THAN our future picks. I could see something like top 8 protected for one or two years, with them getting the pick regardless in year three if we're bad that long. The only other young chips I see us parting with would be either Garcia or Douby. Not sure how much value either of those hold on the open market (I suspect little.)
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Yeah, that's kind of my supposition now too with their PG and SF holes apparently filled via free agency. Outside of the longshot that they'd actually like Artest, and with the note that they may like Reef as a throw in, its hard to see what main piece we could/would offer at this point except a future pick. Protected of course (and I think your scheme is about right, but might have to make it Top 5 protected rather than 8 just so that the Bucks could say they got their pick back, or a chance at it).
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
Well that would be the most probable "Sure deal" for them and givne the tallent stock in this trade a future 6th pick or evena future 4-5 pick is probably a good deal for the team taking Yi. I do like the idea of turning this into a salery dump as well by puting Reef or Artest (Kenny please!) in the deal as well.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I will say this -- given our rebuild status, and some of the nifty players coming out in this next draft, if I could find a way to sneak out without losing our pick next year I'd be pretty happy. Maybe one of those declining protection schemes -- Top 8 yr 1, Top 5 Yr 2, nothing Yr 3 etc. etc. Certainly under no circumstances would you want to miss out on a Derrick Rose or OJ Mayo type star/superstar.
Anyway, who knows. The Bucks continue to play the blissful ignorants here and throw good money after bad, so its kind of hard to predict when/if there even will open bidding on Yi.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
FYI, OJ Mayo is a head case; Petrie wouldn't touch him with a 10-foot pole.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Because obviously we've never absorbed any players with character questions hanging over their heads?
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