Whose gonna be the next Hawes?

jcwkings

All-Star
Our lack of coaching over the last half decade leads to players never developing. Hawes has an actual coach and is now starting to show his worth. He could be a Vlade type player, could be the best big man passer in the league before too long. Who else do you guys see us giving up on, only to become real pro's under a new coach? I think Tyreke is close, JT will be a Nick Collison glue guy for a contender if we don't resign him. Jimmer will either get traded, or play out his rookie contract and become a key part of a contender. If all of this happens Cousins will walk, we desperately need a REAL Coach here. Someone with winning experience, that will not let young players walk over him.
 
Our lack of coaching over the last half decade leads to players never developing. Hawes has an actual coach and is now starting to show his worth. He could be a Vlade type player, could be the best big man passer in the league before too long. Who else do you guys see us giving up on, only to become real pro's under a new coach? I think Tyreke is close, JT will be a Nick Collison glue guy for a contender if we don't resign him. Jimmer will either get traded, or play out his rookie contract and become a key part of a contender. If all of this happens Cousins will walk, we desperately need a REAL Coach here. Someone with winning experience, that will not let young players walk over him.

Just to clarify -- by "the next Hawes" you mean who will be the next underachieving softie who only gets up for contract seasons?
 
Spencer just highlights an enormous problem with this organization. We are absolutely terrible at developing young players. Terrible. Can't think of many we've actually developed.

JWill did much better after moving on.

GWallace did much better after moving on.

Cisco never really developed. Never became consistent or added anything to his game.

KMart seemed to make a huge jump of the course of 2-3 years, and then flatlined, and never developed any other part of his game aside from pure scoring.

Douby? Lol.

JT has gotten better, but a large part of that happened this season after Clifford Ray was brought on board.

Reke's lack development is partly his fault, mostly his jumper, but constant switching positions and roles has been asinine.

Donte? Aside from Reke, maybe the most jerked around youngster we have had recently. Although JT at SF was pretty bad.

Hassan hasn't really shown much, and at this point we're all hoping he can do something next year.

Jimmer? Why the hell make him handle the ball so much and play point when at this point his handle simply isn't good enough, and he struggles just to get across half court or set up the offense. I like him, but should have been played much more off the ball until his handle improves.

Peja was the bright spot.


Just as bad as our organization though are many fans. How much BS did we sit here and listen to about Spencer? How many called him soggy waffles? How many here just flat out can't identify talent and want to give up on 21 and 22 yr olds while ignoring just how poor our organization is at developing young players and hiring a coach CAPABLE of developing them? Too often I just heard Spencer sucks, get this guy off our team. Well, look at what a real coach can do with him. And Collins isn't even one of the best coaches in the league. He's not elite. He's good.

We see this crap now as well with Reke. Some just don't recognize talent, don't recognize the situation once again, don't recognize just how poor our coaching has been and the negative effect its had, and want him shipped out. How many posts did we have in game threads this year where the tone was the same as with Spencer? Reke's garbage, trade him. Reke can't pass, trade him.

No matter how many times it's brought up these guys should still be in college(Spencer at the time), no matter how many times it's pointed out players aren't being used correctly, no matter how many times their roles/positions change, no matter how many times example are brought forth of a Nash or Billups or Dirk or Stockton, among others who struggled early on, or were glued to the bench and later improved, a portion of the base just has this all or nothing, black or white philosophy.

Some really need to stop giving up on our young players so early into their careers, and start looking at the FO to bring in vets to assist in their development and teach them how to approach the game(most of the great players regularly talk about how important a mentor was early on for them), look at our dismal coaching, look at the negative atmosphere surrounding such a young club, look at how in summers prior to the lockout there was no communication between the coaching staff and players(Donte coming in heavier because he said he was told to gain weight, then was benched for just that:confused:), and really how our system and environment is not suited to help, develop, mentor, or bring along young players.

Some of the same people who wanted to give up on Spencer, wanted to give up on JT until all of a few months ago, want to give up on Reke, want to give up Jimmer, and gave up on Donte a while ago. Patience....and a freakin coach.
 
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Just to clarify -- by "the next Hawes" you mean who will be the next underachieving softie who only gets up for contract seasons?

Yes, because big men in their early 20's never improve. Coaching never helps. It's simply the copout excuse that you so amazingly explained. Thanks for the analysis.
 
I'm honestly a little confused by the Spencer Hawes love going on here. Admittedly, I have not followed the 76ers at all this season. If someone would like to present some evidence that he has turned a corner, it would be enlightening for me.

It is my understanding that he averaged 9.6 pts, 7.3 rbds, and 1.3 blocks per game. During the playoffs thus far, he has averaged 11.5 pts , 8 rbds, and 1 block against a Chicago Bulls team missing Joakim Noah and Derrick Rose. The numbers, while decent for a young center, are hardly jaw-dropping. If I'm not mistaken, he had also lost his spot in the starting rotation fairly recently.

The year he was traded, the 76ers were picking ahead of us and appeared to be in re-build mode. There was some fear that they might pick DMC, and we preemptively traded them Spencer Hawes (thus satisfying their needs at center) which allowed them to go with Evan Turner for the pick (thusly, allowing DMC to fall to us.)

What am I missing here with Hawes?
 
The fact that he now plays defense and is no longer a p***y.

I won't argue that the organization has done poorly with developing players. At least until recently when Ray joined the team and the big men improved greatly. But really, Spencer Hawes is an example of regret? I think you guys are getting hung up on the fact that he's actually playing in the playoffs and not that he's really that much better. In the playoffs you are supposed to raise your game. I don't really see the big improvement. Honestly he had some pretty great games here too. He's still an inconsistent player and he would not start on on the current Kings roster.

I'm more interested is seeing what Boogie can do in the playoffs than Hawes. Not at all sorry to see him elsewhere.
 
What has Spencer Hawes done to earn this new found respect? Seriously. What?

Well, I think you have to watch him play, and then compare his play now, to when he was here. Do that, and I think you'll see an improvement. Particularly on the defensive side of the ball. He looks like an actual gear thats part of a machine.
 
But there is only stats in BasketBall what is this game you speak of? If the stats don't show it, it didn't happen. Doesn't matter what you saw.

We have the same problem with our own players even from people who watch most of our games. Stats aren't the end all be all of a players contribution and sometimes maturity as a player doesn't show up in the stats that much(there is still only 1 ball last I checked). I don't know if this is the case for Spencer as I haven't been watching him but I will take some of the posters words around here on it. A bad coach is detrimental to young players growth I have been preaching that since I gave up on WP. Actively setting back a player by years and not defining roles and not putting each player in their own place to succeed at their own game. Not every player has to be a star to "succeed".
 
I think everyone knew that Hawes would be a very respectable player in this league. However, he was traded for Sammy which made us immediately better. Also, he is no DMC and when we landed DMC it became very obvious that Spencer would not have fit on this team. This is not the fault of the organization.
 
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You know the Colbert bump? Well, the Kings have that precious thing called the Kings bump. Young or has-beens want to come here to get the Kings bump. Play here for a season or two and get traded or leave as a free agent and hit it big, at least bigger than would have without the Kings bump. The only qualifications are that you play for the Kings and then leave for another team. You don't even have to play well while here. Some day when we have 12 people signed we will have a winner.
 
As long as the Maloofs are owners, there is never going to be any name coaches or GMs hired. It's just something we have to live with. But I'm notgoing to get all mushy over Spencer Hawes. I have watched him on the Sixers and I'm not wowed at all. If he looks better, it's just because he's in a better coached defensive scheme. But it's not like we let go of a future all star there.

If you want to rip the Maloofs for organization chaos on the Kings, I'm with you. But no love lost here for Hawes.
 
But there is only stats in BasketBall what is this game you speak of? If the stats don't show it, it didn't happen. Doesn't matter what you saw.


I don't think anyone was suggesting that stats are the only meaningful way of evaluating a player. Personally, I used stats as a mental short-cut because I had not seen Hawes play. Is a statistical analysis the only useful analytic tool? No way! Is it helpful? Sure.
 
Just to clarify -- by "the next Hawes" you mean who will be the next underachieving softie who only gets up for contract seasons?

I think he had much more worth here than people realized. He's not the type of guy you would have wanted to pair with Cousins, but those "glimpses" that he had showed here are much more consistently shown in Phily because of better coaching. His passing this year has been spectacular, and his consistency before the injury was great, and now it seems like he is hitting that pre-injury stride again. He's very valuable to Phily.

But again, I don't think he would have fit with Cousins and I think Cousins is much better.

Could you imagine how good Cousins could be with proper coaching? yikes..

Oh and someone mentioned this above but I will reiterate.. His DEFENSE has improved so drastically. He's someone I wouldn't cringe over if someone has him in the high post.
 
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I'm liking what Smart is doing so far with developing some of the younger players.

It's hard to have a young player for the first three years, see that potential, and then not expect it to possibly shine when he's given time and the role to do so at a time in his career when he's more experienced.
 
I'm liking what Smart is doing so far with developing some of the younger players.

It's hard to have a young player for the first three years, see that potential, and then not expect it to possibly shine when he's given time and the role to do so at a time in his career when he's more experienced.


Same thing would happen to Evans if the Kings gave up on him early. He would find a niche with another team and probably would play well. Evans is going into year 4 so we shall see.
 
Our lack of coaching over the last half decade leads to players never developing. Hawes has an actual coach and is now starting to show his worth. He could be a Vlade type player, could be the best big man passer in the league before too long. Who else do you guys see us giving up on, only to become real pro's under a new coach? I think Tyreke is close, JT will be a Nick Collison glue guy for a contender if we don't resign him. Jimmer will either get traded, or play out his rookie contract and become a key part of a contender. If all of this happens Cousins will walk, we desperately need a REAL Coach here. Someone with winning experience, that will not let young players walk over him.

We seem to want coaches that allow players to walk all over them. Without the coddling, we think the players will leave. Remember when Smart took Cousins out of the game after his brain-dead behind the back "Look at me, I'm a point guard" routine? Wailing and gnashing of teeth galore occurred on this board about whether Smart would "lose" Cousins. Oh my God, the sky is falling. And heaven forbid if we should have gotten a guy like Collins for our coach. The guy is too old school for this new group of young guys coming up. Too hard core. Wouldn't work. Pop would never work either. Never you mind that they are excellent coaches; we're terrifed that they may cause our young guys to leave. Ironic, isn't it? Now we're terrified because we don't have a strong coach who can develop talent. You think maybe there is a connection there? We've got a sick pathology with this team where the ownership is weak, the management is weak, and, big surprise, the coaching is weak. No strong coach could survive in this environment of organizational mush.
 
We seem to want coaches that allow players to walk all over them. Without the coddling, we think the players will leave. Remember when Smart took Cousins out of the game after his brain-dead behind the back "Look at me, I'm a point guard" routine? Wailing and gnashing of teeth galore occurred on this board about whether Smart would "lose" Cousins. Oh my God, the sky is falling. And heaven forbid if we should have gotten a guy like Collins for our coach. The guy is too old school for this new group of young guys coming up. Too hard core. Wouldn't work. Pop would never work either. Never you mind that they are excellent coaches; we're terrifed that they may cause our young guys to leave. Ironic, isn't it? Now we're terrified because we don't have a strong coach who can develop talent. You think maybe there is a connection there? We've got a sick pathology with this team where the ownership is weak, the management is weak, and, big surprise, the coaching is weak. No strong coach could survive in this environment of organizational mush.

I honestly think this goes back to ownership. And not (necessarily) as in ownership hiring weak willed coaches. As in ownership not backing their coaches, but instead using the coach as a tool to carry out marketing plans. The players sense this, and it leaves the coach in a disempowered place. Players all the sudden know something's off, and they tend to play for their careers rather than as a team, because they know the overall culture isn't geared towards winning, but something else. So they figure they might as well 'get theirs'. And put more energy into offense rather than defense (cause that's what can get you more money in a contract.) It becomes not worth it to buy into winning as a team because the whole organization isn't on board with that, beginning at the top.

People put way to much blame/praise on coaches. Teams are like companies. If the CEO/owner is bat**** crazy, it's not going to be a good company, no matter how good the coach.

You can say, "well it's still Smart's fault, he can stand up to the owners". Well, not if he wants to keep his job. We know about CD. We also know what an employee has leaked (somebody's gym buddy on here said something about how they eliminate anybody who criticizes them).

Thing is, I don't think we really know if Smart is a good coach or not, because he hasn't been put in a situation to succeed yet.
 
I honestly think this goes back to ownership. And not (necessarily) as in ownership hiring weak willed coaches. As in ownership not backing their coaches, but instead using the coach as a tool to carry out marketing plans. The players sense this, and it leaves the coach in a disempowered place. Players all the sudden know something's off, and they tend to play for their careers rather than as a team, because they know the overall culture isn't geared towards winning, but something else. So they figure they might as well 'get theirs'. And put more energy into offense rather than defense (cause that's what can get you more money in a contract.) It becomes not worth it to buy into winning as a team because the whole organization isn't on board with that, beginning at the top.

People put way to much blame/praise on coaches. Teams are like companies. If the CEO/owner is bat**** crazy, it's not going to be a good company, no matter how good the coach.

You can say, "well it's still Smart's fault, he can stand up to the owners". Well, not if he wants to keep his job. We know about CD. We also know what an employee has leaked (somebody's gym buddy on here said something about how they eliminate anybody who criticizes them).

Thing is, I don't think we really know if Smart is a good coach or not, because he hasn't been put in a situation to succeed yet.

Exactly. The pathology permeates the organization from the owners to management to coaches to the players. And I think you're point about "me getting mine culture" is dead-on right. This team is a temporary stop for players, not an ultimate destination, so why invest in the team, just play for stats and go on your merry way.
 
Just to clarify -- by "the next Hawes" you mean who will be the next underachieving softie who only gets up for contract seasons?

exactly ! beyond Hawes soft game his attitude was despicable. he was a diva that hadn't done anything. He had a pore physical conditioning, and spent his summers doing other more important things like getting that degree in whatever... that he won't use right now because he's suppose to be doing career right now! (fyi don't have a problem with players going to school. but during an interview Hawes didn't have time to workout or play ball because school was taking up so much of his time.) this happened after his rookie year when he clearly should have been putting more time in at the gym and on his game. going to school RIGHT THEN didn't make any sense.

Kobe and Lebron went straight into that first offseason focused on nothing but being the best they could be, and did nothing but improve their game... Hawes when straight to working on his non basketball future. what does that tell you?

Hawes felt entitled and didn't work hard apparently till HIS CONTRACT YEAR!!!! HES NOT THE FIRST PLAYER TO DO THIS PEOPLE! AND ITS USUALLY A SIGN HES GONNA BUST ONCE HE GETS HIS BIG DEAL!

He still doesn't board like a Center should and he's still jacking 3's... sure he's improved but if we still had SAM DALEMBERT !!! we would be totally happy Hawes is gone... letting Sam D go is another story...

the REAL question should be "WHO'S GONNA BE THE NEXT SAM D ON THIS TEAM?"
 
Exactly. The pathology permeates the organization from the owners to management to coaches to the players. And I think you're point about "me getting mine culture" is dead-on right. This team is a temporary stop for players, not an ultimate destination, so why invest in the team, just play for stats and go on your merry way.

I don't know if people understand that the business' attitude starts at the top. With the Kings, it's easy to see by witnessing their coaching hires. Players like money but they also like to win. The money will come no matter who they play for so they want to play for a winner. They know darn well they aren't going to win fon a team that is cheap in its coaching hires. They figure the team's primary purpose is NOT to win but to survive or who knows what.
 
exactly ! beyond Hawes soft game his attitude was despicable. he was a diva that hadn't done anything. He had a pore physical conditioning, and spent his summers doing other more important things like getting that degree in whatever... that he won't use right now because he's suppose to be doing career right now! (fyi don't have a problem with players going to school. but during an interview Hawes didn't have time to workout or play ball because school was taking up so much of his time.) this happened after his rookie year when he clearly should have been putting more time in at the gym and on his game. going to school RIGHT THEN didn't make any sense.

Kobe and Lebron went straight into that first offseason focused on nothing but being the best they could be, and did nothing but improve their game... Hawes when straight to working on his non basketball future. what does that tell you?

Hawes felt entitled and didn't work hard apparently till HIS CONTRACT YEAR!!!! HES NOT THE FIRST PLAYER TO DO THIS PEOPLE! AND ITS USUALLY A SIGN HES GONNA BUST ONCE HE GETS HIS BIG DEAL!

He still doesn't board like a Center should and he's still jacking 3's... sure he's improved but if we still had SAM DALEMBERT !!! we would be totally happy Hawes is gone... letting Sam D go is another story...

the REAL question should be "WHO'S GONNA BE THE NEXT SAM D ON THIS TEAM?"

Whether Hawes is playing well because its a contract year of not remains to be seen. But before you start blurting out so called facts about how he plays now, you might actually try watching him play, instead of throwing out your obvious bias. The fact that you stated that Hawes is still jacking 3's, highlights your ignorace on the subject, and tells me everything I need to know about your credibity.
 
Whether Hawes is playing well because its a contract year of not remains to be seen. But before you start blurting out so called facts about how he plays now, you might actually try watching him play, instead of throwing out your obvious bias. The fact that you stated that Hawes is still jacking 3's, highlights your ignorace on the subject, and tells me everything I need to know about your credibity.

wow your a joke... ok long 2's...

http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=320504020
i watched this game... i will admit to not following every game Hawes plays in and while his 3's per game are down. the games that i've watched still involve him shooting jumpers mostly... which gives the appearance that he's still soft as hell and still not grabbing rebounds like a 7 footer.
 
Hawes will never be a slamming, banging type of center. He doesn't have the body for it and never will. He's not going to be a major league shot blocker either. He isn't ideal for the Kings but because he has a variety of skills, I wouldn't be unhappy if he came back to the Kings. Cousins also has a variety of skills and I think they could work things out and come at the opposition in a variety of ways. I don't know how they would work it out defensively but the idea of having Cuz, JT, and Hawes might be the best we could attract depending on the draft of course. Make no mistake about it, I'd prefer that we waited for someone with better defensive skills but I don't understand the negativity towards him. Some of it seems personal. The thought that we traded this guy for Daly and then were NOT aggressive in retaining Daly sickens me. The sum total is that we gave up Hawes for nothing. Ridiculous.

Our major problem is not the players.
 
sactownfan -

Why not admit you hated Hawes from day one and never had anything good to say about him?

Hawes HAS improved his game and your allegation that "his attitude was despicable. he was a diva that hadn't done anything" is totally without basis in fact. He may not have fit in but it wasn't because he was a diva. If anything, his outspoken political views may have alienated some but he did not have a despicable attitude.
 
sactownfan -

Why not admit you hated Hawes from day one and never had anything good to say about him?

Hawes HAS improved his game and your allegation that "his attitude was despicable. he was a diva that hadn't done anything" is totally without basis in fact. He may not have fit in but it wasn't because he was a diva. If anything, his outspoken political views may have alienated some but he did not have a despicable attitude.

He's a diva because he values education. Did people note that SAR just got his degree?
 
wow your a joke... ok long 2's...

http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=320504020
i watched this game... i will admit to not following every game Hawes plays in and while his 3's per game are down. the games that i've watched still involve him shooting jumpers mostly... which gives the appearance that he's still soft as hell and still not grabbing rebounds like a 7 footer.

The only person who is a joke around here is you!!! You admit you haven't been watching his games, but yet you know everything about him. Well, I've watched more than just a couple of games, plus I personally don't give a damm whether he's good or not. I just report what I see, unlike you, who has biases against players and just throws mud whenever you get a chance. You know how many 3's he took in the last game? ZERO!!!!!!. You know how many 3's he's taken all season? 13!!!!!!. Yeah, he's a real chucker isn't he?

Do you know how many 3's he took in the game your referring to? ONE! And he made it. I'm not sure what your trying to say with that chart, but the one displayed is for the entire team. Go back and click on Hawes in the upper right hand corner, and look at his chart. He averaged over 7 boards in 24 minutes a game this season, and that translates out to 10.6 boards per 36. He won't lead the league with those numbers, but their certainly good numbers. I never said he was the second coming of Dwight Howard. I said I was impressed with how he was playing, and especially his defense. And thats because I actually watch the games.
 
wow your a joke... ok long 2's...

http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=320504020
i watched this game... i will admit to not following every game Hawes plays in and while his 3's per game are down. the games that i've watched still involve him shooting jumpers mostly... which gives the appearance that he's still soft as hell and still not grabbing rebounds like a 7 footer.

To call Baja a joke, shows profound ignorance. He's not only one of the nicer members here, but also has proven his knowledge time and time again. Everyone doesn't always agree, and many times members have different opinions and thoughts on various topics, but to call one of the absolute most knowledgeable members here, who's repeatedly taken the time out to form numerous well thought out posts/threads for everyones benefit, really comes across as uninformed.

BTW, it's you're a joke, not your a joke. Apostrophe separates and abbreviates the you and are, buddy.
 
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