Who would you trade to get Doncic? (split)

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

U say Fox is garbage then ... or just arguing to argue because internet. I just don’t think he’s garbage and I was making a rhetorical point for fun not trying to cite a genuine stat.

I didn't say **** about Fox, and I still haven't. I don't actually care about Fox, or any of the other 2017-18 Sacramento Kings; they aren't relevant to my interests. I am "arguing," if you want to call it that, because I took offense to you invoking the name of Chris Webber, in a thread that had nothing to do with him, just to defend your boy Fox.

Also because the whole "CWebb wasn't clutch" meme inexplicably continues to be overused, despite being mostly inaccurate. Dude legit never lived down that timeout against Carolina, that's like 90 percent of where the whole belief comes from. The other ten percent probably comes from him setting the screen for Bibby to take the shot in Game 5, instead of taking the shot himself, even though Bibby taking the shot was the right basketball play.

 

[John Galt]

I didn't say **** about Fox, and I still haven't. I don't actually care about Fox, or any of the other 2017-18 Sacramento Kings; they aren't relevant to my interests. I am "arguing," if you want to call it that, because I took offense to you invoking the name of Chris Webber, in a thread that had nothing to do with him, just to defend your boy Fox.

Also because the whole "CWebb wasn't clutch" meme inexplicably continues to be overused, despite being mostly inaccurate. Dude legit never lived down that timeout against Carolina, that's like 90 percent of where the whole belief comes from. The other ten percent probably comes from him setting the screen for Bibby to take the shot in Game 5, instead of taking the shot himself, even though Bibby taking the shot was the right basketball play.

It's the age of ready stats - tons of them. Go ahead and embarrass me with the number of game-winners in CWebb's Sac career vs Fox's rookie season.

I'm not a CWebb detractor. Never ever have been. I have one jersey and one jersey only, and it is a CWebb jersey. As the greatest all time Sacramento King, even he did not out-do Fox when it came to knocking down the bit shot with the game on the line.

So yeah I did invoke his name and make no apology for it. Fox has the attribute of appearing to be clutch based on his rookie year sample. Even more clutch than the great CWebb which is my way of saying hella hella clutch. I double down on that.

 

[Joshoua]

Let me get this right... the Phoenix Suns are resting their best player for a second straight year to ensure they out tank us to a better pick again and their fans are okay with us giving them two of our better young players and our pick to move up and pick Doncic? Screw that. I like Doncic but I'm not willing to even entertain the idea of rewarding cheaters until after the lottery. Personally I wouldn't give Phoenix a damn thing. They need a PG and a C anyway so we're not really competing with them for wings. The talent at 7 is still going to be very good.

Of course they need a pg/c but they’re not taking one at 2 with Doncic sitting there. Alt

 

[Houdini]

If I am Vlade I would not take Doncic on a draft, let alone trade for him.

Doncic is a good player, do not get me wrong, but he is overrated and Kings already have what he can bring in Bogdan.

Thing with Doncic is that in my opinion he is already close to his ceiling and there are no areas where he can progress a lot. He already has good skills, good shooting, very mutere player with high BBIQ, already reached his physical limit more or less. One of the reasons why he is overrated is that his stats mainly come because Pablo Laso is just decent coach and only knows how to give ball to good players and let them do what they want. Which is a bad thing for developement of a player, but I will get to that.

Doncic knows to play only if he has a ball in his hands, and with Bogdan and Fox, Kings do not need that, they need more somebody who will feed of them and who can play even without ball in his hands. Second thing is that Doncic is a ball dominated SG primarily and he can not play on SF, I mean he can but like Bogdan, it is not his position.

Now to go back on player developement. Doncic is having more or less same numbers as Bogdan in his age in Euroleague, but because of different things. Than Bogdan went to Fenerbahce, and strugled at the begining, because he did not know how to play without beeing domanant player on a team. After a while he learned. Now Doncic might go through same process, where he finds himself in a position where he is not number 1 or number 2 guy, in a position where he is not primary ball, and question is can he play that kind of basketball.

So tu sum up, unless Kings get 7th or 8th pick with Doncic on the board, I would not take him. If you did not have Bogdan, yes, but with him already on roster, it would be better to focus on SF like Porter Jr. Unless you get high pick to get Ayton or Bagley.

 

[Joshoua]

If I am Vlade I would not take Doncic on a draft, let alone trade for him.

Doncic is a good player, do not get me wrong, but he is overrated and Kings already have what he can bring in Bogdan.

Thing with Doncic is that in my opinion he is already close to his ceiling and there are no areas where he can progress a lot. He already has good skills, good shooting, very mutere player with high BBIQ, already reached his physical limit more or less. One of the reasons why he is overrated is that his stats mainly come because Pablo Laso is just decent coach and only knows how to give ball to good players and let them do what they want. Which is a bad thing for developement of a player, but I will get to that.

Doncic knows to play only if he has a ball in his hands, and with Bogdan and Fox, Kings do not need that, they need more somebody who will feed of them and who can play even without ball in his hands. Second thing is that Doncic is a ball dominated SG primarily and he can not play on SF, I mean he can but like Bogdan, it is not his position.

Now to go back on player developement. Doncic is having more or less same numbers as Bogdan in his age in Euroleague, but because of different things. Than Bogdan went to Fenerbahce, and strugled at the begining, because he did not know how to play without beeing domanant player on a team. After a while he learned. Now Doncic might go through same process, where he finds himself in a position where he is not number 1 or number 2 guy, in a position where he is not primary ball, and question is can he play that kind of basketball.

So tu sum up, unless Kings get 7th or 8th pick with Doncic on the board, I would not take him. If you did not have Bogdan, yes, but with him already on roster, it would be better to focus on SF like Porter Jr. Unless you get high pick to get Ayton or Bagley.

The he’s already close to his ceiling takes on an 18 year old are silly and insulting.

And as good as Bogdan he isn’t on the same tier as Doncic at the same age Doncic is a better passer than Bogdan right now.

Another absolutely wrong take is Doncic needing the ball all the time and his coach forcing it on him. He played and won the championship this summer with Dragic and Dragic was ball dominate.

He’ll easily be better than the defensive cone known as Ayton

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

It's the age of ready stats - tons of them. Go ahead and embarrass me with the number of game-winners in CWebb's Sac career vs Fox's rookie season.

I'm not a CWebb detractor. Never ever have been. I have one jersey and one jersey only, and it is a CWebb jersey. As the greatest all time Sacramento King, even he did not out-do Fox when it came to knocking down the bit shot with the game on the line.

So yeah I did invoke his name and make no apology for it. Fox has the attribute of appearing to be clutch based on his rookie year sample. Even more clutch than the great CWebb which is my way of saying hella hella clutch. I double down on that.

1. If "hitting big shots with the game on the line" is the sole metric you use when defining "clutch," then your definition of clutch needs recalibration. That's not even the definition used by the stat weenies.
2. Like I said before, you have to be playing from behind to have a chance to hit a game winner; Webber's teams didn't do that so much. A more effective rebuttal would have been for you to produce evidence of all the missed game-winning shot attempts from Webber in his Sacramento Kings career. Got many of those, because I can think of maybe two. I mean, if "game-winning" shots is your sole metric for clutch, you could probably make an argument that De'Aaron Fox is more clutch than Stephen Curry... but I sure as hell wouldn't. For that matter, you could probably make a strong case that Tyreke Evans is more clutch than Steph Curry.

 

[John Galt]

I don't actually care about Fox, or any of the other 2017-18 Sacramento Kings; they aren't relevant to my interests.

Why didn't I just leave it there? ... my bad judgement. Have a great day

 

[hrdboild]

Of course they need a pg/c but they’re not taking one at 2 with Doncic sitting there. Alt

Maybe not, but they've only got one pick. At the top of the draft all these guys could step into starting positions for us: Ayton, Bagley, Doncic, Jackson, Bamba, Mikal Bridges, Miles Bridges, Carter. Trae Young is almost certainly going top 10 too. With Devin Booker and Josh Jackson on board and question marks everywhere else, Phoenix drafting Doncic or either of the Bridges would be like us drafting Trae Young or Collin Sexton -- sure you love the talent there but you're doubling up on positions you've already got covered when you could be filling a big hole with a comparable talent. I don't think it's all that likely.

Even if they do, this shouldn't be Doncic or bust for us. Mikal Bridges would fill our biggest positional need while contributing to our league worst defense and equally bad offense. Mo Bamba and Jaren Jackson would both anchor our defense in the middle of the floor giving our guards more freedom to contest on the perimeter aggressively. Marvin Bagley and Miles Bridges would both give our playmakers athletic targets to get the ball to in offensive sets. Add in Ayton and Doncic at the top and that's already 7 players we would be thrilled to have. It's possible we slide lower but if we stay at the 7th pick I'm happy with any of these guys.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Maybe not, but they've only got one pick. At the top of the draft all these guys could step into starting positions for us: Ayton, Bagley, Doncic, Jackson, Bamba, Mikal Bridges, Miles Bridges, Carter. Trae Young is almost certainly going top 10 too. With Devin Booker and Josh Jackson on board and question marks everywhere else, Phoenix drafting Doncic or either of the Bridges would be like us drafting Trae Young or Collin Sexton -- sure you love the talent there but you're doubling up on positions you've already got covered when you could be filling a big hole with a comparable talent. I don't think it's all that likely.

Even if they do, this shouldn't be Doncic or bust for us. Mikal Bridges would fill our biggest positional need while contributing to our league worst defense and equally bad offense. Mo Bamba and Jaren Jackson would both anchor our defense in the middle of the floor giving our guards more freedom to contest on the perimeter aggressively. Marvin Bagley and Miles Bridges would both give our playmakers athletic targets to get the ball to in offensive sets. Add in Ayton and Doncic at the top and that's already 7 players we would be thrilled to have. It's possible we slide lower but if we stay at the 7th pick I'm happy with any of these guys.

Picking nits, but only Bagley would be a guaranteed starter for us on day one. Ayton will need to not be terrible at defense before Joerger would start him, and Doncic would probably start by the end of camp but would need to beat out Temple/Bogie. The rest are big maybes and a couple definite nos (Bamba/Carter).

 

[Sac.1989]

If Ayton and Doncic are truly what they are advertised and believed to be, which is bona fide stars and franchise stalwarts then i would put everyone up in trade talks to make a deal. I would like to retain bogdanovic and giles

 

[Mike]

Doubt it. But if some sucka GM is willing to give us one of Ayton, Doncic, or Bagley for WCS and pick 9/10 I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I'm done with Trill. If he resigns for dirt cheap and comes off the bench, cool. But I'd imagine Mr. Ego fancies himself to be worth more than that. He can throw up junk like a wannabe 1st option and grab 5rpg for another team.

If any of the top few teams trade Ayton or Doncic for a 8-10 pick and Willie, then they'd deserve to subject themselves to more seasons of pain. I'd even call it a firing offense. Unless of course Ayton or Doncic are busts and the 8-10 pick becomes the next Myles Turner/Donovan Mitchell and the player we send makes the grade as well.

 

[Houdini]

@Joshua

No need for highlights, I follow Luka ever since in 2013. he went from Union Olimpija to Real Madrid and won Junior Euroleague with Real in 2015. As for European championship he and Dragic were only players to have a ball in their hands, everybody else Prepelic, Vidmar, Cancar were without a ball. And with Kings you already have players that play with ball in their hands like Fox, Bogdan, Mason and even bigs are playing with ball.

What areas do you think Doncic can improve a lot?

 

[sactowndog]

Being clutch is one of the things I'll give him credit for but he's one of the worst players in the league. It's fine and dandy if you can hit a game winning shot but the points in the other 3 and a half quarters count just as much. Grant might get loud and gloat over every shot made by Fox but don't let that fool you into thinking he's been good, average or even a bit below average. He's been downright terrible overall.

Not to mention his defense has been awful also. Sure he gets an occasional steal but otherwise he gets screened to easily, can’t stay in front of guys and routinely is involved in failed switches.

 

[Joshoua]

@Joshua

No need for highlights, I follow Luka ever since in 2013. he went from Union Olimpija to Real Madrid and won Junior Euroleague with Real in 2015. As for European championship he and Dragic were only players to have a ball in their hands, everybody else Prepelic, Vidmar, Cancar were without a ball. And with Kings you already have players that play with ball in their hands like Fox, Bogdan, Mason and even bigs are playing with ball.

What areas do you think Doncic can improve a lot?

-His body which can improve his athleticism a little he has baby fat on him once he gets into nba training it will transform him.

-His jump shot can and will improve
-The game slowing down even more for him
-NBA being more friendly to perimeter players than overseas
-He can tighten his handle more
-

 

[Telemachus]

1. If "hitting big shots with the game on the line" is the sole metric you use when defining "clutch," then your definition of clutch needs recalibration. That's not even the definition used by the stat weenies.
2. Like I said before, you have to be playing from behind to have a chance to hit a game winner; Webber's teams didn't do that so much. A more effective rebuttal would have been for you to produce evidence of all the missed game-winning shot attempts from Webber in his Sacramento Kings career. Got many of those, because I can think of maybe two. I mean, if "game-winning" shots is your sole metric for clutch, you could probably make an argument that De'Aaron Fox is more clutch than Stephen Curry... but I sure as hell wouldn't. For that matter, you could probably make a strong case that Tyreke Evans is more clutch than Steph Curry.

Webber played in plenty of close games in college and his teams in Washington weren't world beaters. However, he didn't hit his first game winning shot until he had a put back against the Lakers as a King. That included HS, college and NBA. When he said that at the time I was flabbergasted.

 

[hrdboild]

Picking nits, but only Bagley would be a guaranteed starter for us on day one. Ayton will need to not be terrible at defense before Joerger would start him, and Doncic would probably start by the end of camp but would need to beat out Temple/Bogie. The rest are big maybes and a couple definite nos (Bamba/Carter).

Jackson and Bamba had two of the best block percentages of the last 10 years as freshmen. Obviously they're not going to be polished all-around players right away but you don't think one of the worst defensive squads in the league could use an elite shot-blocker at the C position next year? Wendell Carter might not be an immediate starter but he's as talented as any of the other young bigs we currently have with a better outside jumper and impressive playmaking instincts. Ayton is probably going to be pretty bad on defense initially but he's also the best offensive C prospect coming out of college since Tim Duncan. Doncic and the two Bridges would play SF for us where we currently have Justin Jackson and... well that's about it.

I will grant you that Wendell Carter is probably going to have to earn a spot the hard way and he may struggle initially with the physicality of the NBA. The rest should be starting for us by the end of their rookie season barring injury or roster shenanigans (though with no draft pick I don't see why we would want to do anything but field the best team possible). I'm not all that interested in the technicality of who makes the opening day starting lineup. My point is that there is plenty of talent at #7 to feel comfortable waiting to see who falls to that pick. As much as I like Doncic, there are some question marks about his defense and ideal position. Ayton has got the knock that he doesn't try very hard on defense. I don't really want to give up multiple players to get either one when Mikal Bridges or Mo Bamba or Jaren Jackson could be had without giving up anything.

 

[Houdini]

-His body which can improve his athleticism a little he has baby fat on him once he gets into nba training it will transform him.

-His jump shot can and will improve
-The game slowing down even more for him
-NBA being more friendly to perimeter players than overseas
-He can tighten his handle more
-

- his body yes, in terms of muscles mainly, but when transformed in NBA it will not be that much of a difference. One of the reasons he is this good with 19 is that he already has a body that can cope with Euroleague players.
- Yes slightly, he is now 60% for 2, and 33% for 3, and I expect him to be same for two and can go to around 40% for 3. Because he is not pure shooter like Peja was for example.
- Disagree on this one. He is playing under Pablo Laso and Real is whole season without Sergio Llull. So he is playing for a coach that focuses a game around ball handler player, unless on Mike D´Antoni system it can hardly be more friendly. For example check stats of Llull last season in Real Madrid.
- Again, a little, his handles are good, and he is not going to be Steph Curry.

I respect your opinion, but for me all areas you named is something he can get better, but not by much. he can not explode like Antetokounmpowho is phisically beast, but in all other areas he was under average, and now by working hard he is getting better and better and growing as a player. Do not get me wrong, Doncic will be good NBA player, his BBIQ is amazing and he is NBA ready in every term. But people see his stats and his age and say what will he look like in 7-8 years, but thing is he can not have a huge upside.

That is why I said if you can not get Ayton, Bagley, Porter, Bamba than yeah Doncic would be good. But I would not trade Buddy and one more player and a pick just to get him.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Webber played in plenty of close games in college and his teams in Washington weren't world beaters. However, he didn't hit his first game winning shot until he had a put back against the Lakers as a King. That included HS, college and NBA. When he said that at the time I was flabbergasted.

Perhaps. @John Galt did, however, specifically cite the Sacramento portion of his career.

 

[ESP47]

Jackson and Bamba had two of the best block percentages of the last 10 years as freshmen. Obviously they're not going to be polished all-around players right away but you don't think one of the worst defensive squads in the league could use an elite shot-blocker at the C position next year? Wendell Carter might not be an immediate starter but he's as talented as any of the other young bigs we currently have with a better outside jumper and impressive playmaking instincts. Ayton is probably going to be pretty bad on defense initially but he's also the best offensive C prospect coming out of college since Tim Duncan. Doncic and the two Bridges would play SF for us where we currently have Justin Jackson and... well that's about it.

I will grant you that Wendell Carter is probably going to have to earn a spot the hard way and he may struggle initially with the physicality of the NBA. The rest should be starting for us by the end of their rookie season barring injury or roster shenanigans (though with no draft pick I don't see why we would want to do anything but field the best team possible). I'm not all that interested in the technicality of who makes the opening day starting lineup. My point is that there is plenty of talent at #7 to feel comfortable waiting to see who falls to that pick. As much as I like Doncic, there are some question marks about his defense and ideal position. Ayton has got the knock that he doesn't try very hard on defense. I don't really want to give up multiple players to get either one when Mikal Bridges or Mo Bamba or Jaren Jackson could be had without giving up anything.

We should be ok as long as we stay in the top 7. I think 8th on back consists of redundant type players that don't fill a need or guys like Knox or Miles Bridges who have low floors. I feel like Mikal Bridges is the middle man here. I doubt he will be an impact player but I don't think he will be a bust either.

7th should be able to at least get us Jackson, Bamba, Carter or Porter if his stock has fallen that much. I'd be ok with any of those guys but I think they all have low floors except for Carter, who I think has one of the highest floors of any of the lottery picks but one of the lower ceilings in comparison. Bamba could be Gobert. Jackson could be Capela with a 3 point shot. Both guys could be complete one dimensional duds as well. It's difficult to gauge.

I might make a trade for Doncic but I wouldn't for Ayton. If both guys are going to wind up being below average on defense, I feel like Doncic will have the bigger impact on the game due to his ability to run an offense.

 

[John Galt]

Perhaps. @John Galt did, however, specifically cite the Sacramento portion of his career.

I repeat: I love Chris Webber and consider him the greatest of the Sacramento era Kings. Always did. If somebody can dredge up a post... going ALL THE WAY BACK... where I ever spoke ill of CWebb... or called him non-clutch... or brought up the timeout... I will eat my hat.

 

[Joshoua]

We should be ok as long as we stay in the top 7. I think 8th on back consists of redundant type players that don't fill a need or guys like Knox or Miles Bridges who have low floors. I feel like Mikal Bridges is the middle man here. I doubt he will be an impact player but I don't think he will be a bust either.

7th should be able to at least get us Jackson, Bamba, Carter or Porter if his stock has fallen that much. I'd be ok with any of those guys but I think they all have low floors except for Carter, who I think has one of the highest floors of any of the lottery picks but one of the lower ceilings in comparison. Bamba could be Gobert. Jackson could be Capela with a 3 point shot. Both guys could be complete one dimensional duds as well. It's difficult to gauge.

I might make a trade for Doncic but I wouldn't for Ayton. If both guys are going to wind up being below average on defense, I feel like Doncic will have the bigger impact on the game due to his ability to run an offense.

Exactly a center that is only average at defense isn’t more valuable than a wing that can give you 20-5-5

 

[gunks]

Jackson and Bamba had two of the best block percentages of the last 10 years as freshmen. Obviously they're not going to be polished all-around players right away but you don't think one of the worst defensive squads in the league could use an elite shot-blocker at the C position next year? Wendell Carter might not be an immediate starter but he's as talented as any of the other young bigs we currently have with a better outside jumper and impressive playmaking instincts. Ayton is probably going to be pretty bad on defense initially but he's also the best offensive C prospect coming out of college since Tim Duncan. Doncic and the two Bridges would play SF for us where we currently have Justin Jackson and... well that's about it.

I will grant you that Wendell Carter is probably going to have to earn a spot the hard way and he may struggle initially with the physicality of the NBA. The rest should be starting for us by the end of their rookie season barring injury or roster shenanigans (though with no draft pick I don't see why we would want to do anything but field the best team possible). I'm not all that interested in the technicality of who makes the opening day starting lineup. My point is that there is plenty of talent at #7 to feel comfortable waiting to see who falls to that pick. As much as I like Doncic, there are some question marks about his defense and ideal position. Ayton has got the knock that he doesn't try very hard on defense. I don't really want to give up multiple players to get either one when Mikal Bridges or Mo Bamba or Jaren Jackson could be had without giving up anything.

I'm with you.

That clutch lin against the Mavs has revitalized my optimism that we won't end up with stinking pick 9.

If we end up 7 and have a chance at JJJ, Bamba, or Carter, pick the kid and call it a draft.

 

[burekijogurt]

well, Doncic just beat my (and his) team with a last second three:

 

["The Serbian Sniper"]

24 points, 9/12 fg, 9 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 steals, 7 turnovers and game winning shot for 31 minutes.

He did that against my team Doncic is "Crvena Zvezda" fan, Bogdan is Partizan fan, and rivalry against those two teams is one of the biggest basketball rivalries in the world. I would love to see them on the same team

 

[ParniValjak]

24 points, 9/12 fg, 9 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 steals, 7 turnovers and game winning shot for 31 minutes.

He did that against my team Doncic is "Crvena Zvezda" fan, Bogdan is Partizan fan, and rivalry against those two teams is one of the biggest basketball rivalries in the world. I would love to see them on the same team

The only way that can happen is if they play for the Kings. No way is Bogdan finishing his career with Crvena Zvezda! Grobar through and through!

 

["The Serbian Sniper"]

I hope Kings will put them together. Like they did with Vlade (Partizan) and Peja (Zvezda)

 

[Joshoua]

I’ll name my first born Vlade if he gets us Doncic y’all got my word

 

[Hansel]

I don't understand complaints about Doncic limited upside. He's already a top player.
Hope not to get Lebron as well as a FA, such a limited upside.