Who Would You Start on Opening Day?
- Thread starter twslam07
- Start date
twslam07
All-Star
Perhaps I’ll be in the minority but I like a starting lineup of…
Schroder
Ellis
LaVine
Murray
Sabonis
…the best.
- Ellis and Murray gives us two great defenders and Schroder is pretty good as well. Allows them to set the tone for how Doug wants to play and pickup 94 feet.
- Spacing would be pretty good with Ellis, LaVine, and Murray out there. Schroder and Sabonis aren’t too shabby from 3 either
- You have an actual PG out there in Schroder to run the offense with Sabonis
- With DeRozan on the bench, it makes it clear that LaVine is the #1 option and maybe helps him to be more aggressive out of the gate. It also allows us to focus more on a team game with Sabonis and DHOs (with DeRozan doing lore of his iso scoring when our main cogs are resting and we need a pick me up on offense).
- In addition to Lavine being the go-to scorer, we still have Sabonis and Schroder that can help in that department, but perhaps more importantly it helps Murray get some opportunities to show what he’s got on the offensive end vs just sticking him in the corner and having LaVine, DeRozan, Sabonis, and Schroder taking all of the shots.
The downside is obviously size on the defensive end, but I’d rather have a Ellis/Lavine duo at SG/SF than Lavine/DeRozan defensively hands down. So despite the downgrade in some size, it should still improve the defense overall.
On top of the pros for going with that starting lineup, I think it makes the rotation and minutes rotation a lot cleaner…
PG - Schroder (26) / Monk (22)
SG - Ellis (26) / Carter (12) / Clifford (6) / Monk (4)
SF - LaVine (32) / DeRozan (10) / Clifford (6)
PF - Murray (30) / DeRozan (18)
C - Sabonis (34) / Raynaud (14)
Sabonis = 34 min
LaVine = 32 min
Murray = 30 min
DeRozan = 28 min
Schroder = 26 min
Ellis = 26 min
Monk = 26 min
Raynaud = 14 min
Carter = 12 min
Clifford = 12 min
Again, we’re going to be small, but at the end of the day, our best players are small so I think we might as well just lean into that for this season and make sure our young guys (Carter, Clifford, Raynaud) are getting some burn. I don’t expect us to be a serious contender anyway so would prefer this type of rotation and look to balance out the roster at the deadline or next offseason.
Schroder
Ellis
LaVine
Murray
Sabonis
…the best.
- Ellis and Murray gives us two great defenders and Schroder is pretty good as well. Allows them to set the tone for how Doug wants to play and pickup 94 feet.
- Spacing would be pretty good with Ellis, LaVine, and Murray out there. Schroder and Sabonis aren’t too shabby from 3 either
- You have an actual PG out there in Schroder to run the offense with Sabonis
- With DeRozan on the bench, it makes it clear that LaVine is the #1 option and maybe helps him to be more aggressive out of the gate. It also allows us to focus more on a team game with Sabonis and DHOs (with DeRozan doing lore of his iso scoring when our main cogs are resting and we need a pick me up on offense).
- In addition to Lavine being the go-to scorer, we still have Sabonis and Schroder that can help in that department, but perhaps more importantly it helps Murray get some opportunities to show what he’s got on the offensive end vs just sticking him in the corner and having LaVine, DeRozan, Sabonis, and Schroder taking all of the shots.
The downside is obviously size on the defensive end, but I’d rather have a Ellis/Lavine duo at SG/SF than Lavine/DeRozan defensively hands down. So despite the downgrade in some size, it should still improve the defense overall.
On top of the pros for going with that starting lineup, I think it makes the rotation and minutes rotation a lot cleaner…
PG - Schroder (26) / Monk (22)
SG - Ellis (26) / Carter (12) / Clifford (6) / Monk (4)
SF - LaVine (32) / DeRozan (10) / Clifford (6)
PF - Murray (30) / DeRozan (18)
C - Sabonis (34) / Raynaud (14)
Sabonis = 34 min
LaVine = 32 min
Murray = 30 min
DeRozan = 28 min
Schroder = 26 min
Ellis = 26 min
Monk = 26 min
Raynaud = 14 min
Carter = 12 min
Clifford = 12 min
Again, we’re going to be small, but at the end of the day, our best players are small so I think we might as well just lean into that for this season and make sure our young guys (Carter, Clifford, Raynaud) are getting some burn. I don’t expect us to be a serious contender anyway so would prefer this type of rotation and look to balance out the roster at the deadline or next offseason.
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I agree with this. Also gives Keegan more opportunity. I like the idea of Monk and DeRozan leading the 2bd unit.
I think the only way to go with this team is to go small similar to OKC at times. A center, 3 wings and a PG. Apply pressure. Only problem is our guys aren’t as good defensively as OKC’s stable of defenders while we have like 3 or 4. This gets Nique onto the floor. Can get DC onto the floor.
I think people are dismissing Eubanks to quickly….not that he’s a gamechanger but he can provide some toughness which is welcome.
I think people are dismissing Eubanks to quickly….not that he’s a gamechanger but he can provide some toughness which is welcome.
twslam07
All-Star
Yeah I also have a hard time seeing a starting unit with LaVine, DeRozan, and Sabonis picking up 94 feet out of the gate. Swapping DeRozan with Ellis gives Doug 3 guys that can do that and set the tone of the game.
It will be interesting to see if Deebo would actually be on board with it. I thought it was telling that Doug Christie said it’s not about who starts it’s about who finishes. In this scenario I’d still see Deebo closing out games.
We're aligned as usual. This team has to play into speed ans getting out in transition. And just get the good defenders on the floor, even if it leads to some undersized lineups.
Unfortunately, don't see anyway this will happen with ddr being the elder statesman. Christie spent all last year not playing balanced lineups, Unfortunately see more of the same coming this year
LaVine was this team's worst individual defender last year and Schröder isn't very good either. If the goal is to play the best defenders than the lineup should be: Ellis / Clifford / Murray / Jones / Sabonis. But I also don't see Doug benching DeMar, LaVine, and Schröder so as usual the lineup will be decided by seniority: Schröder / LaVine / Murray / DeRozan / Sabonis. Monk and Ellis get the bench minutes at guard. Clifford and McDermott will switch off getting the backup SF minutes, depending on matchups, and I have no idea which of the bigs will be in the regular rotation. Isaac Jones and Maxime Reynaud have 300 minutes of NBA experience between them so it'll likely be Eubanks as the primary backup to start the season.
Srzly
G-League
I can’t see Deebo agreeing to it after flat out refusing to do it last year but I agree it would be ideal.
I also dislike that phrase because too many times we fell into a hole early and took ourselves out of the game with our starting lineup to the point we had guys like Doug McDermott finishing the game.
So it kinda is about who starts to make who finishes matter.
Obviously you don't need to play all good defenders at once. But it should be a lot of Carter Keon Keegan, Clifford integrated with Lavine ddr, Monk, Dennis.
My big complaint last year is Christie did not play balanced lineups in the slightest. Far too much of all of lavine, ddr, monk on the floor. We added Dennis to that mix, who's better than they are defensively, but not by much. But my take would be is most lineups should have 2 of Monk, ddr, lavine, Dennis on the floor with Domas and 2 defenders. That's how this team will have success
But it isn't as if Ellis, Clifford, and Murray are slugs on offense... Ellis and Murray are probably our most consistent 3pt shooters (November slumps notwithstanding) and Nique Clifford has already demonstrated that he can make smart decisions with the ball in his hands coming out of a pick and roll which makes him an adequate PG substitute alongside a shot creating big in Sabonis and allows us to start an off-ball guard like Ellis at the point. If the goal is to win, being "not awful" on offense or defense by staggering the bad defenders is just aiming for mediocrity.
To answer the original question, the lineup that I would start if I were the head coach is: Ellis / Clifford / Murray / DeRozan / Sabonis. I'm not thrilled about DeRozan at PF but this roster is thin on size and experience at PF/C so there aren't any better options right now. DeRozan averaged 21, 6, and 6 his first season in San Antonio (pushing that assist average up to 6.9 apg in his last year as a Spur) and consistently averaged 5 apg his three years in Chicago. I'd like to see him utilized more as a set-up guy this season. And if the goal is to apply defensive pressure for the full 90 feet, why wouldn't you put your best point of attack defender on the floor right at the start of the game to establish the tone? If Doug starts Schröder at PG instead I'm going to call BS on that talking point already.
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I know Doug says, it's who finishes. We all get that.
I feel like our best chance to balance the lineup a bit and not get buried early in the game is to start Keegan (that's a given) and Keon (that's gonna be a tough sell to some). Means LaVine may have to defend the 3 in the other rotation, which is basically giving that person a license, so team D is going to be huge. But the only viable alternative is LaVine and DDR in the 2/3 spots as starters which means we're going to get roasted by the opposing players there and Keegan is going to have to pull an extra heavy load early as the lone defender out there.
So until we can make a move I think we are stuck with that.
Also I think if we can sell DDR on a 6th man type role it increases his trade value.
I feel like our best chance to balance the lineup a bit and not get buried early in the game is to start Keegan (that's a given) and Keon (that's gonna be a tough sell to some). Means LaVine may have to defend the 3 in the other rotation, which is basically giving that person a license, so team D is going to be huge. But the only viable alternative is LaVine and DDR in the 2/3 spots as starters which means we're going to get roasted by the opposing players there and Keegan is going to have to pull an extra heavy load early as the lone defender out there.
So until we can make a move I think we are stuck with that.
Also I think if we can sell DDR on a 6th man type role it increases his trade value.
Why are we catering to Zach LaVine? He's the defensive weak link in the starting lineup and the only reason we went out and got a veteran PG to distribute the ball. I think two of these guys will be gone next season anyway, so what do we have to lose by pushing Schröder, LaVine, and Monk all onto the bench? Make it a hockey style shift change and they can come in and blow people out of the water with offense in 5-8 minute bursts before subbing out and letting the defense hold the lead.
ockingsfan
Starter
This is the most likely starting line up. Hard to see DDR accepting a role as a super 6th man on a mediocre team.
Ideally though, I would like to see a more balanced starting line up and bench rotation of:
PF: Keegan / IJ / Raynaud
SF: Lavine / DDR / Nique
C: Sabonis / Raynaud / Eubanks / Caldwell
SG: Ellis / Monk / Nique
PG: Dennis / Monk/ DC
gunks
Hall of Famer
Dennis, Keon, Zach, Keegan, Domas makes the most sense, has decent balance, and might even win a good amount of games.
Deebo about to **** that all up by refusing to come off of the bench as a 55 year old ISO player.
Edit: a bench led by a 55 year old ISO player and Monk could be pretty fun too
Deebo about to **** that all up by refusing to come off of the bench as a 55 year old ISO player.
Edit: a bench led by a 55 year old ISO player and Monk could be pretty fun too
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"Catering"? I know you don't like the guy and that's fine. Starting him over Deebo or Monk really isn't in question in my mind and it has nothing to do with catering.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
To me the poll leader is a super intriguing lineup. 3 plus defenders 3 potential elite shooters. ISO scoring ability would be limited but good enough. In my mind that’s pretty easily the highest upside lineup for this season.
If we look at overall impact, not just counting stats, there's no doubt in my mind that are at least 5 players on this team who are better overall NBA players than LaVine. The poll assumes he's locked into the starting lineup, which is fine if the plan is to lose. Maybe it is.
Is this serious?
None of whom have shown any iota of creation ability at a starting level. Nique has yet to play a real NBA minute. Keon is about 4000 minutes into being the best version of a "3andD" role player you can dream up, but that also has limitations. I think Keegan absolutely has another couple levels or 2 offensively to reach, as evidenced by his last 3 months of the last season, but this is still a guy that put 12.7 PPG on 55% TS with a 5.6% AST rate up over the course of the season. I have massive hope for his ceiling as an offensive player, but right this minute? He's an idealized version of a "3andD" wing, like Keon.
Which is exactly why you integrate these guys in with the guys who actually can play on the offensive end at a high level. The Kings have a pile of them, but the key is to not play them all at the same time.
I thought I made it clear in the post that you quoted that DeRozan and Sabonis would be the two leading playmakers in my lineup. Sabonis averaged 8.2 apg a year ago and DeRozan averaged 5-6 apg for 7 seasons in a row before he got to Sacramento. In that context, I think catch and shoot guys like Ellis and Murray would be fine as floor spacers or dribble hand-off shooters and Nique Clifford would just have to fill in the margins as a scorer or playmaker as needed. We could run the offense through Sabonis and DeRozan at the top of the key with everyone else as a cutter or floor spacer.
Yes. He's played for 2 NBA teams before ours and both of them got better as soon as he left. If all you care about is scoring, than he's your guy. Unfortunately for LaVine, there is a whole other side of the floor to be accounted for.
He is probably clear and away our #1 scoring option in the modern NBA. He's starting. Locked in. You hate that and I am fine with that opinion, lord knows I certainly didn't want him here, but to call it catering is still a stretch in my mind. For this season and possibly the next the offense will run around Domas and Zach. You put your two proven plus defenders in with those two and your best PG. Right now that is Dennis but I'd love to see someone step up and steal that job, possibly Carter.
I hate it because it makes no sense from a team-building context. LaVine is the worst defender on the team, playing out the string on the last GM's final blunder. He's not a part of this team's future. Doug is a new coach trying to establish an identity, to make this his team and set a tone that his team will be a defense-first squad. Starting Schröder over Ellis and/or LaVine over literally anyone else, regardless of what they may have been promised in the off-season, runs directly contrary to those goals.
Not to mention, at least with DeMar in the starting lineup and handling the ball more as a playmaker there's a chance with his contract that you could generate some trade interest mid-season. Nobody is taking that LaVine contract. And even in 2025 at age 36 DeMar DeRozan is twice the player that Zach LaVine is and will ever be.
Can you quantify this statement with any shred of evidence?
I get that LaVine is flawed, but it doesn’t feel like his strengths are being acknowledged here. He’s a monster offensively, scoring at a high level on elite efficiency. Almost 45% from 3 on over 7 attempts a game, 23ppg, 51% FG. I’m not saying he’s all NBA and he definitely hurts you defensively, but let’s not forget about the offensive side of the ball either.
Okay, let's look at lineups. I sorted these by minutes and only looked at the first page because after row 25 we'd be talking about LaVine or DeRozan lineups that played less than 20 minutes together all season.
The most used lineup with LaVine on the floor last season (220 minutes) was Ellis / Murray / LaVine / DeRozan / Sabonis which had a NetRtg of -0.9.
The second most used lineup with LaVine (196 minutes) was Monk / Murray / LaVine / DeRozan / Sabonis which had a NetRtg of -8.4.
If you go down the list, of the 8 most used lineups that the Kings played last season which included Zach LaVine, only one lineup stands out as significantly high in both sample size and NetRtg and that was the third most used LaVine lineup of Ellis / Murray / LaVine / DeRozan / Valanciunas which played together for 92 minutes and had a NetRtg of 14.3.
The most used lineup with DeRozan on the floor (431 minutes) was Fox / Monk / Murray / DeRozan / Sabonis which had a NetRtg of 0.2.
The second and fourth most used lineups with DeRozan were the two listed above which also included LaVine.
The Third most used lineup with DeRozan (201 minutes) was Ellis / Monk / Murray / DeRozan / Sabonis which had a NetRtg of 17.1. Of the 19 different lineups listed here featuring DeRozan, only 5 of them had a negative NetRtg. And of those 5 negative NetRtg lineups, 4 of them also included LaVine while the fifth was 22 minutes worth of Fox / Ellis / DeRozan / Lyles / Len which evidently was a disaster at -15.6.
My conclusion here is that the Kings were often worse with LaVine on the floor last season while they won the vast majority of the minutes where DeRozan was on the floor and was not paired up with LaVine.
Some people like advanced stats so let's compare:
| Rk | Player | Age | Pos | G | GS | MP | PER | TS% | 3PAr | FTr | ORB% | DRB% | TRB% | AST% | STL% | BLK% | TOV% | USG% | OWS | DWS | WS | WS/48 | OBPM | DBPM | BPM | VORP | Awards |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | DeMar DeRozan | 35 | SF | 77 | 77 | 2768 | 17.7 | .569 | .196 | .337 | 2.0 | 10.1 | 6.0 | 18.7 | 1.1 | 1.1 | 6.5 | 25.0 | 5.7 | 1.4 | 7.1 | .123 | 1.2 | -1.2 | -0.1 | 1.3 | |
| 8 | Zach LaVine | 29 | SG | 32 | 32 | 1170 | 15.9 | .642 | .450 | .201 | 1.0 | 9.9 | 5.4 | 15.6 | 0.8 | 0.2 | 13.5 | 23.7 | 1.7 | 0.4 | 2.1 | .086 | 1.8 | -2.3 | -0.4 | 0.5 |
Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 10/2/2025.
In nearly every category, DeRozan looks like the better player. Now I know that some will want to circle True Shooting %, 3 Pt Attempt Rate, and Offensive Box Plus Minus and act like those are the only thing that matters since 3pt shooting is synonymous with offense for them. I also will acknowledge that Win Shares is a counting stat and LaVine played half the season in Chicago so that's not a direct one-to-one comparison.
These are two players who get their offense in different ways. If we're talking about a starting lineup which also features Ellis, Murray, and Sabonis I think we'd be better served by pairing them up with a player who isn't reliant on catch and shoot 3pt jumpers and can create offense in other places on the floor. Speaking of which, basketball-reference.com also tracks some relevant data about turnovers and fouls -- two of the areas where DeRozan and LaVine are polar opposites:
| Posi | +/- | Turn | Foul | Foul | Misc | ||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rk | Player | Age | Pos | G | GS | MP | PG% | SG% | SF% | PF% | C% | OnCourt | On-Off | BadPass | LostBall | Shoot | Off. | Shoot | Off. | PGA | And1 | Blkd | Awards |
| 1 | DeMar DeRozan | 35 | SF | 77 | 77 | 2768 | 0 | 6 | 86 | 8 | 0 | 1.2 | 2.3 | 52 | 38 | 89 | 8 | 221 | 17 | 863 | 56 | 57 | |
| 8 | Zach LaVine | 29 | SG | 32 | 32 | 1170 | 3 | 78 | 19 | 0 | 0 | -4.0 | -6.5 | 43 | 31 | 29 | 6 | 52 | 1 | 290 | 15 | 20 |
Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 10/2/2025.
While playing 57% less minutes than DeRozan, LaVine had almost as many turnovers. In terms of drawing fouls, there is no comparison. DeRozan has been and still is amongst the best in the league (9th overall in FTA on the season). LaVine ranked 44th in FTA.
Or the somewhat contentious per100 possessions stats where we find br.com's offensive and defensive ratings:
| Rk | Player | Age | G | GS | MP | FG | FGA | FG% | 3P | 3PA | 3P% | 2P | 2PA | 2P% | eFG% | FT | FTA | FT% | ORB | DRB | TRB | AST | STL | BLK | TOV | PF | PTS | ORtg | DRtg | Awards |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | DeMar DeRozan | 35 | 77 | 77 | 2768 | 11.0 | 23.1 | .477 | 1.5 | 4.5 | .328 | 9.5 | 18.6 | .513 | .509 | 6.7 | 7.8 | .857 | 0.9 | 4.4 | 5.3 | 6.0 | 1.1 | 0.6 | 1.9 | 2.7 | 30.2 | 120 | 119 | |
| 8 | Zach LaVine | 29 | 32 | 32 | 1170 | 11.0 | 21.4 | .511 | 4.3 | 9.7 | .446 | 6.6 | 11.8 | .564 | .611 | 3.8 | 4.3 | .874 | 0.4 | 4.3 | 4.7 | 5.1 | 0.8 | 0.1 | 3.6 | 2.4 | 30.0 | 117 | 121 |
Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 10/2/2025.
Zach LaVine is a player who does one thing very well and congratulations to him because it's made him a lot of money. But if you want to talk about anything on a basketball court that is not 3pt shooting there's really no basis for comparison, DeRozan is flat out better. And that's before we start talking about intangibles like how DeMar has been a runner-up for Clutch Player of the Year in 2 of the 3 seasons that award has existed and even led the entire league in minutes played a year ago.
Yes, I will acknowledge that he does one thing really well, but even that has been inflated here by recency bias. His career 3pt % is 39.1% and in an 11 year career (so far) he's only shot over 40% from 3pt range for an entire season once before last season. It isn't just that he's bad on defense, he's also turnover prone and below average at getting to the FT line. This guy is Buddy Hield with dunks. He finishes in the top 20 in TS% once in 11 years (16th last season) and I'm supposed to act like he's an elite scorer?
1.
The lineups data is meaningless. Sample size and of course the ridiculous amount of turnover and turmoil this team had last year. This season will be a far better indicator of how these lineups operate together with a full off-season/training camp under what Doug is coaching. Not the hodge-podge we tried to create mid-season last season after firing our HC and trading our franchise player. I've stayed pretty consistent on this point all summer too, I'm willing to just throw out last season and let these guys start fresh from game 1 and judge from there. Even if we wanted to "trust" the lineup data, it's such a small sample that there's nothing to gleam from it anyway.
2. Why are you not using LaVine's stats with the Bulls? (Which, huh, he played better than, interesting how you might leave that off). That alone changes a lot of your "points". If you're only going to compare LaVine's Kings tenure, then you should mod your data to reflect that with DDR's as well. If you're comparing DDR's whole season, compare LaVine's whole season. If you're going to go through the effort of trying to make a "statistical argument", you should probably try and not and bring a completely skewed sample to the table.
