ockingsfan
Starter
I haven't heard the WCS comparison to Mikki Moore before. Why do you think that?
Who do you want the Kings to Draft at #6?
- Thread starter ockingsfan
- Start date
I haven't heard the WCS comparison to Mikki Moore before. Why do you think that?
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Roughly the same size/build. Limited talent.
But the thing is a) that size/build should be a GOOD thing in most guys; and b) WCS is 100% an intangibles pick, a defensive pick. And Mikki had neither the instincts nor the passion/toughness for that.
Some tape just for fun:
00:17 - Gets knocked down by Dulje Dukan. There's a reason you haven't heard that name - he's mostly a shooting big. Stanimal is all upper body, so no, he has little chance to guard non-stretch 4s in the near future. He might take an example from Randle, who dropped a lot of upper body muscle to become more agile.
00:28, 01:04 - Apparently plays help defense without affecting Kaminski, but also allowing his own man, Dekker, to get to offensive boards
00:45, 02:35 - gives drives to Dekker, who is dominantly off the ball scorer.
01:15 - back to lack of agility. Johnson is a freight train in transition, and just like a train can't deviate from straight line, when at full speed. Just possession before that RHJ scored in transition weaving around Hayes.
01:46 - hello, Otto Porter
02:02 - Stan is actually not that quick with the ball, and in half-court off the dribble mostly settles into short jumpers, floaters in front of the rim (in a way similar to Gay, except Rudy has 4" more in length and quite a few more in jumping ability), but when paint is shut, he goes around for difficult shots on the move. Hey, there's Dukan again, shadowing his drive this time!
02:15 - was there ever opportunity for a pass?
02:22 - excellent steal in back end of a press, but then goes for double dribble, and in a crucial moment of the game. Can't remember seeing that for a while.
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macadocious
Starter
I'm thinking its WCS then Payne right now. Kids a stud.
I'm getting more concerned we're going to do something stupid like trade the 6 plus some combo of DC/JT/Landry for Lawson and/or faried.
Feels like we'll once again go into the offseason talking about bringing in pieces to address weaknesses like defense and shooting and then go and do the opposite.
Who knows, after 10 years maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.
Feels like we'll once again go into the offseason talking about bringing in pieces to address weaknesses like defense and shooting and then go and do the opposite.
Who knows, after 10 years maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Yup. Dave generally has an ear to the grapevine and just again recently said there's a real chance Lawson ends up here and that we aren't interested in Mudiay.
Take that for what it's worth.
Some tape just for fun:
00:17 - Gets knocked down by Dulje Dukan. There's a reason you haven't heard that name - he's mostly a shooting big. Stanimal is all upper body, so no, he has little chance to guard non-stretch 4s in the near future. He might take an example from Randle, who dropped a lot of upper body muscle to become more agile.
00:28, 01:04 - Apparently plays help defense without affecting Kaminski, but also allowing his own man, Dekker, to get to offensive boards
00:45, 02:35 - gives drives to Dekker, who is dominantly off the ball scorer.
01:15 - back to lack of agility. Johnson is a freight train in transition, and just like a train can't deviate from straight line, when at full speed. Just possession before that RHJ scored in transition weaving around Hayes.
01:46 - hello, Otto Porter
02:02 - Stan is actually not that quick with the ball, and in half-court off the dribble mostly settles into short jumpers, floaters in front of the rim (in a way similar to Gay, except Rudy has 4" more in length and quite a few more in jumping ability), but when paint is shut, he goes around for difficult shots on the move. Hey, there's Dukan again, shadowing his drive this time!
02:15 - was there ever opportunity for a pass?
02:22 - excellent steal in back end of a press, but then goes for double dribble, and in a crucial moment of the game. Can't remember seeing that for a while.
Just a couple comments on his awful performance against Wisconsin in the tournament...
The play at 1:46 was the first play of the second half and obviously a designed play. Dekkar waited until Johnson took his eye off him, then took off from a standstill, ran around a screen, and received the ball behind the 3pt line. Johnson recovered fast enough to contest the shot and got a hand up on the pass. Tarczewski made a lazy attempt to show and lost track of Kaminsky behind the 3pt line. It wasn't a great defensive possession, but it was a play call made out of a play stoppage which would have been tough to defend regardless and you can't fault Johnson's effort on the play.
Early in the second half Stanley Johnson got hit in the eye and his contact lens became dislodged. He went to the locker room but the trainers didn't have another contact lens for him so he played the rest of the half with double vision. Watch that double dribble call again at 2:22 -- he bobbles the ball because he's trying to pass and loses the handle. I'm fairly confident that play doesn't happen without the eye injury. He didn't have a great first half (6pts, 2 rebs) but Arizona was leading at half-time. He didn't even attempt a shot after the eye injury occurred with 17:37 left in the game. Sam Dekkar scored 20 of his 27 points in the second half, 17 of them after Stanley got poked in the eye. That was the difference in the game.
I'm not saying Johnson isn't without his weaknesses, all of these players have something they need to work on. I'm saying when you look at the complete package of skills, physical ability, work ethic, and competitive drive, it's relatively hard for me to find much that I don't like about Johnson. And it's a bad idea to weigh any one game too heavily in relation to the overall body of work. Stanley helped lead his team to the state title four times in HS. At Arizona he was the MVP of the Mauai Invitational just 2 weeks into his college career, helped Arizona win their first Pac-12 tournament since 2002, and had a pretty good NCAA tournament overall until the game against Wisconsin when he played half the game injured.
Nothing I say is going to change your mind, I'm just throwing my opinion out there. A lot of people aren't even considering Stanley Johnson as a possibility for us because (1) They have WCS tunnel vision or (2) His last game was the worst of his college career or (3) We already have Rudy Gay. I keep bringing his name up mostly because nobody else is. Do you really want me to talk about Cauley-Stein or Winslow some more like everyone else is? What's left to say at this point that hasn't already been said?
It's a slight exaggeration intended to get my point across. There's a spectrum of talent ranging from Mikki Moore (miniscule) to Tyson Chandler (gifted defender) and on that spectrum I think Cauley-Stein falls a lot closer to Mikki Moore than some talent evaluators would have you believe. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong. You've got other posters saying he's going to single-handidly fix our defense so it's healthy, I think, to acknowledge there are other points of view on the issue. It bothers me that a 7 foot third year player averaged 6.2 rebounds over 5 NCAA tournament games. That was in 28.8 mpg. He was a combined 11 for 25 from the field in those 5 games. Like I said about Stanley, that's a small part of the big picture but we've seen WCS at Kentucky for three years. He's never been the best player on his college team, he's never averaged more than 9 points or 6.5 rebounds, he's not an elite shotblocker. He's a gifted team defender but that's asking a lot for a one-dimensional college player without any elite skills to step into an NBA rotation and be anything more than bench depth.
I think comparing WCS on a spectrum using Mikki Moore and Chandler may be off in regards to bigs. I'm not sure who to comparing him to but I think he's way more capable of guarding perimeter types as well as post. I don't recall Chandler as capable of that at his age.....
But he's not Mikki Moore, way better defensive guy than that.
But he's not Mikki Moore, way better defensive guy than that.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
It took Chandler a few years to lock in. One thing that he did do from the start though and WCS likely will not is rebound the heck out of the ball. But you have to remember that Chandler was coming into the NBA several years younger.
If our target is Payne, I hope we trade down. Maybe 6th pick+Carl Landry for 9th pick and and 39th pick.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
What's inspired this? Same thought that's been around, or something new?
If you just look at production though (Moore, Cauley-Stein) they're not that far apart. I know team defense isn't really measured in box scores but he has to be an elite team defender to have any hope of staying on the floor. Personally, I'm not that impressed with his team defense to the point where I can call him a sure-thing. His pure athletic ability is off the charts but his understanding of the game still has a long way to go from what I've seen. He gets handsy on the perimeter which is going to get called all game in the NBA. He still gets out-muscled in the paint against college players which is forgivable for underclassmen, but after three years I start to question how much physical development he's got left in him. He can run the floor, use his length, and throw down dunks but so could Mikki Moore. That's not enough to make you a full-time starter.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
what's with the Payne talk all of a sudden? is he really worthy of being drafted in the top 10...I didn't watch much Murray State basketball, but to me he looks like a undersized scoring guard. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd like to know the hype...is it the small school success as of late?
Personally, it's a combination of the usual media, Karl influence, the pace obsession, the lack of news/activity with our draft pick plus the fact that carmichael dave is talking it up which has been a good sign the last few years that the front office is leaning a direction.
randymoss1881
Starter
And he can't finish or play defense at a mid major. You can't be undersized and a terrible defender at pg DMC will be in foul trouble every game. Seriously just take Winslow don't touch this dude.
I'm gonna have to go watch his games again than when I watched him I wasn't impressed. I know it might not mean much but Stanley hasn't been mentioned with is by anyone.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well, given the $$ there it raises an interesting question:
1) because of that conditional pick, we can't trade #6 before the draft, we have to draft him, then trade him
2) Lawson earns $12.4mil next year, Faried $11.2mil. $23.6mil combined
3) Thompson earns $6.43mil next year, Landry $6.75. $13.18mil. About a $10.4mil gap.
4) Now traditional thinking has been that you have to throw in Collison too ($5.0mil) to get within trade rule range, and it still eats a chunk of your cap room because we're taking more back.
5) BUT, that #6 pick is Due to earn about $3.3mil in the first year of his contract, or at least that is the max amount. How/when is that counted for draft day trades? Is he considered a $3.3mil player for purposes of the trade? Only if we immediately rush him into a room and sign him? Only the minimum amount he could get? The max? Nothing until he's signed?
It occurs to me that could be a significant factor.
For instance:
Example 1:
Lawson + Faried $23.6mil
for
Thompson/Landry $13.2mil
#6 pick $3.3mil
Stauskas $2.9mil
---------------------
Total $19.3mil would/should work, although costing you $4.3mil in cap room
on the other hand
Example 2:
Lawson $12.4mil
for
Thompson/Landry $13.2mil
#6pick $3.3mil
------------
$16.5mil
would actually shave cap room for us
or
Example 3:
Lawson $12.4mil
for
Landry $6.75
#6pick $3.3mil
Stauskas $2.9mil
---------------------
Total $12.85
actually lines up nicely salarywise while retaining JT for either another trade or as a usable frontcourt piece.
So how that #6pick/$3.3mil salary slot is treated could be critical in making a deal with Denver palatable. We can't trade before the draft, so what is a drafted but unsigned rookie's salary hit for trade purposes?
beb0p
Starter
WSJ has an article on WCS! Interesting read.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/in-defense-of-taking-willie-cauley-stein-1427401619
I tend to agree with this. I think WCS's rebounding ability is better than he had shown.
.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/in-defense-of-taking-willie-cauley-stein-1427401619
I tend to agree with this. I think WCS's rebounding ability is better than he had shown.
.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well...they were 2 of the 4 best players on a 57 game winner for this same coach, so you can't totally ignore that if you are trying to bring them in to be 2 of your 4 best players, with a #1 far greater than that 57 team winner had.
Of course on the other hand they have also been maybe the 2 best players on back to back 36 and 30 game winners, so... (before someone snarkily notes it, you have to be careful there as Cuz and Rudy have been the 2 best players on back to back 29 game winners)
Not my guys, but if you could actually end up adding one or both for nothing more than JT/Carl the pick and Stauskas...that's more quality players to our stack. If you keep Collison in fact I say we have 5 quality players, but not perfectly matched and still in terrible need of defensive aces for help. That 57 game winner wasa decent (11th in Def Rating) defensive team that decorated its mediocre pack of core players with Koufos, Mozgov, Igoudala, Chandler, Brewer, McGee etc. Enough role players to make it work.
Which is my biggest issues with bringing Lawson/faried in. They don't address our biggest issues while using up most of the assets we'd have to fill in around them with the pieces that do.
miltonap
Starter
No way would I trade JT/Carl, the pick, AND Stauskas for any of them. I just don't feel like they address any of our needs. Sure it may have worked in Denver, but we have a different roster.
jcwkings
All-Star
Payne isn't just a scorer, he was asked to score because he was the best player on a team with not much else. Coaches think the most impressive thing about him is his feel for the game and vision. The fact that he can score and is a good shooter already at 20 is a great thing. Also he isn't undersized, 6'2 and most importantly with a 6'7 wingspan, does need to hit the weight room though, he is well aware of that from recent interviews. Body wise he is like George Hill, and i'm sure he will develop into a good defender given his wingspan and instincts, certainly has the potential to be a solid steals guy, I didn't watch him in college but my guess is he wasn't really asked to play much defense because he did everything else for that team. If he is your guy you should trade down though, most drafts have him going to Indiana or OKC, still 3 weeks though a lot can change from now and the draft.
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-pm-cameron-payne-lottery-pick-2015-nba-draft/
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-pm-cameron-payne-lottery-pick-2015-nba-draft/
ockingsfan
Starter
I believe the Kings would have to agree to the trade, then make the selection at #6 for Denver. The Kings would then sign the rookie with the intent of trading him and his new salary as part of the salary in the trade. They would then have to wait the mandatory 30 days (or 60 days?) to complete the trade. That way the rookie contract salary would count toward matching salaries.
Much like last year with the Kevin Love-Andrew Wiggins trade. Cleveland had to sign Wiggins first, so his salary would count in the trade, wait the mandatory 30 days and then completed the trade of Kevin Love to Cleveland.
To all Mikky Moore et al talk:
WCS played under 15 % of his time without KAT or Dakari on the floor. He was NOT A CENTER for his team this year, he was playing POWER FORWARD.
Barely any NBA PF/C or true C types played PF in college. In fact the only one I can think of was Andre Drummond, and he looked bad statistically.
Last year when Caulie-Stein was actually playing center, his team was 2nd in entire Division I in Oreb%(41.9), and decent in DReb% (70.3).
This season despite all the bigs Kentucky's team OReb% dropped to 39.5, while DReb% - to 68.2.
Last season, when Caulie-Stein was allowed to fly all over the court swatting shots like KAT this year (11.5blk%), WCS got 12.3blk% and still had less fouls.
These are stats up to February:
--------DPoss%---OppFG%--created TO%--at the rim%--team DRtg
WCS----25.2--------24.6---------7.1%------------25.8----------69.5
KAT----22.8--------26.9---------2.3%------------34.0-----------73.5
DPoss% - % of possessions, where he was the last defender
OppFG% - pretty obvious
created TO% - percentage of possessions, where he was the last defender, that ended in TOs
at the rim% - pretty obvious
team DRtg - pretty obvious
Kentucky's overall DRtg at the moment was 74.0, best in the nation. Given that WCS and KAT spent most of the time together on the court up to that moment one can easily imagine, how much more important WCS was for his team's defense.
WCS was just an athlete coming to Kentucky, same as his teammate Marcus Lee.
Lee is still an athlete after two years in Kentucky. Caulie-Stein became the best defensive player by a margin on a best defensive team in the nation after three years in Kentucky. There's 0% chance WCS is Mikky Moore.
P.S. Karl wanted control of personnel operations, before getting fired, so here are ideas (some speculative) on Karl's views from Denver: http://www.denverstiffs.com/2013/6/28/4474562/a-long-hot-night-at-pepsi-center
WCS played under 15 % of his time without KAT or Dakari on the floor. He was NOT A CENTER for his team this year, he was playing POWER FORWARD.
Barely any NBA PF/C or true C types played PF in college. In fact the only one I can think of was Andre Drummond, and he looked bad statistically.
Last year when Caulie-Stein was actually playing center, his team was 2nd in entire Division I in Oreb%(41.9), and decent in DReb% (70.3).
This season despite all the bigs Kentucky's team OReb% dropped to 39.5, while DReb% - to 68.2.
Last season, when Caulie-Stein was allowed to fly all over the court swatting shots like KAT this year (11.5blk%), WCS got 12.3blk% and still had less fouls.
These are stats up to February:
--------DPoss%---OppFG%--created TO%--at the rim%--team DRtg
WCS----25.2--------24.6---------7.1%------------25.8----------69.5
KAT----22.8--------26.9---------2.3%------------34.0-----------73.5
DPoss% - % of possessions, where he was the last defender
OppFG% - pretty obvious
created TO% - percentage of possessions, where he was the last defender, that ended in TOs
at the rim% - pretty obvious
team DRtg - pretty obvious
Kentucky's overall DRtg at the moment was 74.0, best in the nation. Given that WCS and KAT spent most of the time together on the court up to that moment one can easily imagine, how much more important WCS was for his team's defense.
WCS was just an athlete coming to Kentucky, same as his teammate Marcus Lee.
Lee is still an athlete after two years in Kentucky. Caulie-Stein became the best defensive player by a margin on a best defensive team in the nation after three years in Kentucky. There's 0% chance WCS is Mikky Moore.
Denver removed their two best by a margin defenders in Iggy and Koufos and turned into pumpkin. Kings actually were same all offense/no defense pumpkin for years, so no, they don't need Lawson and Faried, even if they are very good players, Kings must go after their versions of Iggy and Koufos like Wes and...Koufos. I wrote against acquring Kosta couple of times, but that's because I don't think, Karl will play Cuz and Koufos together, which makes JT and his contract completely worthless, plus Kosta likely wants to start and money, that comes with it. If Karl would be willing to and can make it work offensively, I would be all for acquiring and starting Kosta.
P.S. Karl wanted control of personnel operations, before getting fired, so here are ideas (some speculative) on Karl's views from Denver: http://www.denverstiffs.com/2013/6/28/4474562/a-long-hot-night-at-pepsi-center
Kings can just as easily trade rights to #6 without signing, except Brick's trade #1 requires salary of the pick, which would bring 30 day rule into force.
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K
KingMilz
Guest
What do you think of the Samual Dalembert (76ers version) comparison to WCS that they have on draft net? To me if WCS can be good as a 76ers Sammy D than I would love to have him. I'm only asking cause I have only seen bits and pieces of WCS and have only really read about him/seen highlights.
