Who cost the Kings ping pong balls?

[VF21]

There might be a different perspective here.

I would agree on the constant negativity and to some extent I’m guilty as charged. However, all organizations are responsive to the views of their customers. I think Vivek is particularly so. A significant portion of the fan base is clearly anti-tank and those opinions play into organizational philosophy. The Kings organization is largely echoing the opinion of their customers. So changing the general consensus does matter.

That's in your best interest and from your perspective. I think it's fairly clear that's not the perspective the front office is using. They had a decision to make for this season and they made it. You may not agree with it, but that's how it goes. They may change their focus for next season. It's not cast in stone. At this point, though, what frustrates a number of the "anti-tank crowd" is the notion by the tank crowd that their answer is the only correct one. And that's something that will pretty obviously not change on either side.

Bottom line the NBA is a business. The Kings are a business. They're going to do what's best in their mind for both the short and long-term success of their business. They are judged most by those who put forth their hard-earned money to land their butts in the seats. Those are - and should be - the ones they answer to. If the general consensus of those paying customers is they do not and will not pay to watch a team tank, that's gonna impact decisions.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

He may say he doesn’t believe in it, but the Rockets are one of the teams who consistently avoid the 6,7 and 8 draft slots. They have had 4 top 3 picks over the same period the Kings have had 1. This quadruple the number of top 3 picks has occurred despite having a significantly better winning percentage.

He also has had only 1 pick at 6, 7, 8 over the same time period where the Kings have had 11 picks in that position.

What top 3 picks have the Rockets had since 2007?

 

[Sactown ExPat]

The anti-tank crowd I'm referencing here don't put forward any sort of reasoning that Morey would agree with. Nor was my point that the tanking crowd is smarter than everybody else.

Morey believes in accumulating superstars/young talent. We don't have the means to do that unless it's through the draft. It's that simple.

Nobody acquires young talent, better put “cost controlled contracts” except via draft or trade, and Vlade literally accumulated a heretofore unprecedented number of said contracts on the roster this season.

 

[sactowndog]

We're kind of saying the same thing here: we agree that Divac didn't do as good a job of communicating his strategy to the consumers as Hinkie did, and thereby wasn't as effective as energizing the fanbase about said strategy. The difference to me is that you seem to be saying that you think that Divac developed his strategy based on what he thought consumers wanted, and then hedged. Whereas I think that Divac made a plan in advance, and has stuck to it, but simply didn't effectively communicate to his consumers what the plan was, which has led to all the speculation and hand-wringing.

Yeah close. I’m going to go with Vlade knew and followed the statistics and planned to tank but hedged based on Vivek responding to what consumers wanted. That lack of clarity came out in the communication to your point.

 

[sactowndog]

That's in your best interest and from your perspective. I think it's fairly clear that's not the perspective the front office is using. They had a decision to make for this season and they made it. You may not agree with it, but that's how it goes. They may change their focus for next season. It's not cast in stone. At this point, though, what frustrates a number of the "anti-tank crowd" is the notion by the tank crowd that their answer is the only correct one. And that's something that will pretty obviously not change on either side.

Bottom line the NBA is a business. The Kings are a business. They're going to do what's best in their mind for both the short and long-term success of their business. They are judged most by those who put forth their hard-earned money to land their butts in the seats. Those are - and should be - the ones they answer to. If the general consensus of those paying customers is they do not and will not pay to watch a team tank, that's gonna impact decisions.

I think we are saying the same thing. By and large Kings fans didn’t want a tank and it impacts decisions.

 

[VF21]

I think we are saying the same thing. By and large Kings fans didn’t want a tank and it impacts decisions.

I agree.

Where I think we disagree, unless I'm reading things wrong, is that you and others want the front office to either disregard what the fans want OR convince the fans that tanking is good. I don't think that's gonna happen, especially in Sacramento.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Yeah close. I’m going to go with Vlade knew and followed the statistics and planned to tank but hedged based on Vivek responding to what consumers wanted.

Yeah, I personally abhor the use of this phrase, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on that.

 

[sactowndog]

Yeah, I personally abhor the use of this phrase, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on that.

What phrase??

 

[LPKingsFan]

/re-reads first couple sentences of the OP
/catches up on the thread
/wonders why he even bothers

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

What phrase??

"Agree to disagree."

 

[sactowndog]

I agree.

Where I think we disagree, unless I'm reading things wrong, is that you and others want the front office to either disregard what the fans want OR convince the fans that tanking is good. I don't think that's gonna happen, especially in Sacramento.

Yes because when looking at the data, in my opinion, it’s pretty statistically clear that drafting 1,2,3 is a huge difference than 6, 7 and 8.

And I also agree that it’s not going to happen “especially in Sacramento”. Which is what led me to whether the Kings strategy works or it doesn’t work, in either case, the fans will get exactly what they deserve because the organization and fans are largely aligned on approach.

 

[sactowndog]

"Agree to disagree."

What are we agreeing to disagree on? That businesses follow their customers desire??

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

That Divac hedged on his original plan. You think he did, I think he didn't, but instead just never made it clear what his plan was, which created enough ambiguity for people to think that he was indecisive.

 

[sactowndog]

That Divac hedged on his original plan. You think he did, I think he didn't, but instead just never made it clear what his plan was, which created enough ambiguity for people to think that he was indecisive.

Fair enough so what was his plan?

 

[burekijogurt]

First, I don't believe Divac is a nit-wit. He seems like a reasonably smart individual, able to comprehend the consequences of his action. I don't think that he's devoid of knowledge about the higher probability of getting a better player in the draft (all other things being equal) than lower in the draft. Trying out different sets and getting more looks at different players? Please. I've got some tropical swamp land to sell in Nome, Alaska, if you think that is ALL that Divac had in mind.

What I also believe is that Divac vacillated when it concerned a season long strategy dealing with the axiom of "the higher draft position, the higher the probability of available talent." Divac wrestled with the question, "To tank or not to tank?" And that waffling is why he's sitting in 7th position.

This implies not only incompetence and indecisiveness, but also disingenuousness on Vlade's part. I think this point of view comes from a myopic focus on draft position as end all be all of franchise future success. As such, tanking/not-tanking becomes viewed as the only possible decision that a GM would think about during a season and every move is viewed through that prism. To some it is inconceivable that someone would honestly believe that developing young talent at the possible expense of draft position is the right way to go.

That said, I think they expected to lose a lot of games by concentrating on development, but that is not why they did it. If tanking was the ultimate goal, and development a means to conceal it, then they did a bad job on both fronts...

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Fair enough so what was his plan?

Don't know, don't care, and don't really expect it to work, either way. I just don't think of the people who get themselves into those jobs as the sort of people who second-guess themselves very often. I look at Divac the same way I looked at D'Alessandro: often wrong, but never in doubt.

 

[sactowndog]

Don't know, don't care, and don't really expect it to work, either way. I just don't think of the people who get themselves into those jobs as the sort of people who second-guess themselves very often. I look at Divac the same way I looked at D'Alessandro: often wrong, but never in doubt.

Haha. Fair enough. It certainly doesn’t follow the probabilities.

 

[burekijogurt]

Fair enough so what was his plan?

To develop/evaluate the players already acquired. At least that's what they seem to say, although some think they might not be completely truthful there.

btw, I don't think you are using @ correctly. When Slim did an @ I got an alert, but when you did it couple of times no alert, I just found them when reading your posts...

 

[sactowndog]

This implies not only incompetence and indecisiveness, but also disingenuousness on Vlade's part. I think this point of view comes from a myopic focus on draft position as end all be all of franchise future success. As such, tanking/not-tanking becomes viewed as the only possible decision that a GM would think about during a season and every move is viewed through that prism. To some it is inconceivable that someone would honestly believe that developing young talent at the possible expense of draft position is the right way to go.

That said, I think they expected to lose a lot of games by concentrating on development, but that is not why they did it. If tanking was the ultimate goal, and development a means to conceal it, then they did a bad job on both fronts...

I think the issue was the Kings were in last place at the start of February. This position would seem to strongly indicate better talent is needed. 6 teams actively passed them in getting a top 3 pick.

If the Kings were 8 and ended up 10th, I think the discussion would be very different.

 

[sactowndog]

To develop/evaluate the players already acquired. At least that's what they seem to say, although some think they might not be completely truthful there.

btw, I don't think you are using @ correctly. When Slim did an @ I got an alert, but when you did it couple of times no alert, I just found them when reading your posts...

Okay thanks..... in terms of the evaluate on what they had don’t you think that could have been accomplished in summer league and by February?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Is it not possible that the team thought that with the roster they had they would win about 5 games less than they did and that a few of the teams that decided to quit before the 20 game mark caught us all by surprise therefore what should have been an easy top 5 pick locked down became the #7?

The real difference is whether or not you believe that because other teams blatantly pulled the plug on their season does that merit the Kings actually going out of their way not just to develop the kids as it happens, but actually lose games they could have otherwise won. And that is something that many of us have major issues with for a host of reasons, whether that is fairness to the people buying tickets or just a moral vision of integrity of the game.

 

[burekijogurt]

Okay thanks..... in terms of the evaluate on what they had don’t you think that could have been accomplished in summer league and by February?

np.

not in summer league definitely.. but development/evaluation is probably an iterative process..

 

[King Baller]

That Divac hedged on his original plan. You think he did, I think he didn't, but instead just never made it clear what his plan was, which created enough ambiguity for people to think that he was indecisive.

Do GM's come out in public and state their "Plan"? I don't think so. They talk about things in very general ways.

Running an NBA Team is a complicated endeavor, just ask the Spurs whats up with Leonard.

 

[Tetsujin]

Do GM's come out in public and state their "Plan"? I don't think so. They talk about things in very general ways.

Running an NBA Team is a complicated endeavor, just ask the Spurs whats up with Leonard.

Purported visionary Sam Hinkie did

 

[sactowndog]

Purported visionary Sam Hinkie did

And judging by the sixers current future it seemed to work pretty well.

 

[sactowndog]

Is it not possible that the team thought that with the roster they had they would win about 5 games less than they did and that a few of the teams that decided to quit before the 20 game mark caught us all by surprise therefore what should have been an easy top 5 pick locked down became the #7?

The real difference is whether or not you believe that because other teams blatantly pulled the plug on their season does that merit the Kings actually going out of their way not just to develop the kids as it happens, but actually lose games they could have otherwise won. And that is something that many of us have major issues with for a host of reasons, whether that is fairness to the people buying tickets or just a moral vision of integrity of the game.

That’s fine. You can be secure in the fact you held the moral high ground while the other teams in the West: Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas pick 1, 2 and 3 if the order stands post lottery.

At least 1 and likely 2 of those teams will get a multi year all-star caliber player and all three are in our conference.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

And judging by the sixers current future it seemed to work pretty well.

You may be conflating two things here: what Hinkie did was two different things at the same time, both of which were considered unusual from an NBA GM: he implemented a very blatant tanking strategy, but he was also very transparent to his consumers about it. @King Baller's post and @Tetsujin's response appear to be about the transparency part, but your reply suggests that you thought that they were talking about the tanking part.

If Hinkie had done the same things, strategy-wise, but had been as coy about it to consumers as, say, a Geoff Petrie, it would have produced the same results, but Seventy-sixers fans would likely have been much less energized about it.

 

[whozit]

That’s fine. You can be secure in the fact you held the moral high ground while the other teams in the West: Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas pick 1, 2 and 3 if the order stands post lottery.

At least 1 and likely 2 of those teams will get a multi year all-star caliber player and all three are in our conference.

Yes they might. But you leaving out part of his argument. He stated, 'host of issues ....' implying multiple reasons not just the moral high ground. The other issue he specifically mentioned was the paying customer. You conventionally ignored them.

The paying customer may be no more than collateral damage to you, but a tanking team is not what they were sold. The fact that there is a 100% mortality rate for humans not all of the current customers will be around. The customer comes first. I'm not willing to shortchange them today for my benefit tomorrow. I'm not corporate america and I'm not going to act like them.

 

[ockingsfan]

That’s fine. You can be secure in the fact you held the moral high ground while the other teams in the West: Phoenix, Memphis and Dallas pick 1, 2 and 3 if the order stands post lottery.

At least 1 and likely 2 of those teams will get a multi year all-star caliber player and all three are in our conference.

I think that is what the Kings decision making has come down to: Morality.

I think the Kings feel it is outright immoral to purposely tank, therefore cheating their consumer or paying customer.

Obviously Phoenix, Memphis, Dallas, and the rest of the tankers didn't feel that way. Those teams blatantly tanked the last 40+ games.

Well, it is what it is, so I'm hoping karma somehow plays into the lottery ping pong balls come May 15th.

 

[DerekJ]

I think that is what the Kings decision making has come down to: Morality.

I think the Kings feel it is outright immoral to purposely tank, therefore cheating their consumer or paying customer.

Obviously Phoenix, Memphis, Dallas, and the rest of the tankers didn't feel that way. Those teams blatantly tanked the last 40+ games.

Well, it is what it is, so I'm hoping karma somehow plays into the lottery ping pong balls come May 15th.

I wish I could agree with you, but karma does seem to be affecting Philadelphia who is about to win the Eastern Conference..