Where do our starters rank at each position?

[HndsmCelt]

Malone and Payton were not anywhere near the tops of their positions that season.

I'd disagree. While neither of them were what they had been, in both cases the discussion at the time was centered around the idea that both of them were better at the end of their career than most of the other guys in the league were at their peek. More to the point Shaq and Kobe had already won 3 titles with out them.

As to the comments that winning team chemistry is lighting in a bottle, that might be true, but LOTS of teams still over perform because of chemistry while lots of other teams under perform due to bad chemistry. Having the BEST players at each position is NOT a guarantee of wining, in fact often times is is preferable to have roll-players at some positions, and complimentary pieces at others.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Bogut is not an elite defender. Any elite defender would get a vote on this list somewhere. http://www.nba.com/2013/news/05/13/all-defensive-team-official-release/index.html

I don't see any of the warriors there.

EDIT:

Here is the previous years list. http://www.nba.com/2012/news/05/23/nba-all-defensive-team-2011-2012/index.html

Missed too many games. In the last two seasons where Bogut played 69+ games, he finished Top 5 in the league in defensive rating, both times. In the last three seasons where he played at least 60+ games, he finished Top 10 in blocked shots, all three times. It's not a coincidence that Golden State was in the bottom third of the league defensively until around the All-Star Break, when Bogut finally got right, health wise, and managed to finish (barely) in the top half of the league defensively for the season overall. That's the kind of impact he has.

It's a hell of a lot easier to play "team" defense when you've got a guy who can clean up your mistakes like that.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

This discussion takes me back to 2003-2004 when we learned beyond a shadow of a doubt that having the best player at every position was NOT as important as team play. (For you kids that was the year when the Lakers started, Kobe, Shaq, Malone, and Payton. Only to be publicly humiliated in a coast to coast butt whipping at the hands of a bunch of discards from around the league who made a heck of a TEAM in Detroit, including 6th man of the year Corliss Williamson.)

I have no idea if that is the plan in the works, but I will say this, the addition of Vasques and Mbah a Boute or even Landry could make sense IF the team play is improved. At which point none of us will care that 4 of our 5 starters are in the lower half of the league for their position.

The type of chemistry you saw on that Detroit team, the current Spurs roster, or even the Kings team from early 2000's is lightning in a bottle in a lot of ways (there's no way to predict whether personalities will mesh). But on paper, those teams still made sense. They had enough shooting, rebounding and defense to be able to work together as a team, even if the pieces on the team weren't prototypical.

That Pistons team also had two guys averaging 2+ blocks per game, one of them made First Team All-Defense that year, and was runner up in DPOY voting. Ben something-or-other... Maybe you've heard of him?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I'd disagree. While neither of them were what they had been, in both cases the discussion at the time was centered around the idea that both of them were better at the end of their career than most of the other guys in the league were at their peek. More to the point Shaq and Kobe had already won 3 titles with out them.

No there wasn't. There was a lot of lip service being paid on TV about "Four Future Hall of Famers" this, and "FFHOF" that, but nobody was saying that Malone was still one of the Top 5-10 PF's in the league by 2003-04 (outside of L.A., maybe), and nobody but nobody was saying that about Payton at his position. Neither one of them were in the Top 15, at their respective positions, during that season.

Now, I do remember a sentiment that Malone was the only one keeping the team from imploding, I'll give you that much but, in terms of on the court, they didn't have it any more, and it was obvious.

 

[Section 101]

Missed too many games. In the last two seasons where Bogut played 69+ games, he finished Top 5 in the league in defensive rating, both times. In the last three seasons where he played at least 60+ games, he finished Top 10 in blocked shots, all three times. It's not a coincidence that Golden State was in the bottom third of the league defensively until around the All-Star Break, when Bogut finally got right, health wise, and managed to finish (barely) in the top half of the league defensively for the season overall. That's the kind of impact he has.

It's a hell of a lot easier to play "team" defense when you've got a guy who can clean up your mistakes like that.

I don't disagree with your statement. I took issue with calling him an elite defender. An elite defender will be getting more than 1 vote on the all defensive team especially when Nene got a vote the same year.

 

[Rose2Thomas]

Mostly a copy paste. I'm pretty sure Jimmy Butler is going to be starting SG for the Bulls. I don't think Asik is going to be starting PF for the Rockets but it looks like they already gave all their PF's to the Kings.

Center
HOU Howard
SAS Duncan
MEM MGasol
<--------- SAC Cousins
CHI Noah
ATL Horford
IND Hibbert
BKN BLopez
CHA Jefferson
CLE Bynum*
DET Monroe
MIN Pekovic
MIA Oden??
GSW Bogut
NYK Chandler
ORL Vucevic
MIL Sanders
PHX Gortat
TOR Valanciunas
LAC Jordan
DAL Dalembert
DEN McGee
UTH Kanter
WSH Okafor
LAL Kaman
POR RLopez
PHI Hawes
OKC Perkins
NOH Smith?
BOS Olynyk??


Power Forward
MIN Love
LAC Griffin
POR Aldridge
NYK Anthony
MEM Randolph
GSW Lee
DAL Nowitzki
NOH Davis
BKN Garnett
MIA Bosh
DET Drummond
LAL PGasol
OKC Ibaka
HOU Asik??
IND West
CHI Boozer
ATL Milsap
WSH Nene
UTH Favors
DEN Fareid
SAS Splitter
CLE Thompson
PHI Noel
<----------SAC Thompson or SAC Landry or SAC Patterson
ORL Davis
TOR Johnson
MIL Henson
BOS Bass
CHA Biymbo? Zeller?
PHX Frye? Morris?


Small Forward

MIA LeBron
OKC Durant
CHI Deng
TOR Gay
DET Smith
GSW Igoudala
BKN Pierce
POR Batum
DEN Gallinari
HOU Parsons
IND Granger
UTH Hayward
ORL Harris
SAS Leonard
DAL Marion
PHI Turner
MIL Ilyasova
BOS Green
PHX Beasley? Butler?
CHA Kidd-Gilchrist
MEM Prince
CLE Bennett
WSH Porter
NYK World Peace
<--------------------- SAC Mbah a Moute
LAC Dudley
NOH Aminu?
ATL Korver?
MIN Brewer? Budinger?
LAL Young??
<---------------------if it were Salmons


Shooting Guard
MIA Wade
HOU Harden
LAL Kobe
IND George
DAL Ellis
NOH Gordon
MIN Martin
GSW Thompson
CHI Butler
BKN Johnson
MEM Allen
NYK Smith
TOR DeRozan
MIL Mayo
<------------ SAC Thornton
POR Matthews
ORL Afflalo
WSH Beal
CHA Henderson
LAC Reddick
DEN Miller?
CLE Waiters
SAS Green
BOS Crawford
<---------------------if it were McLemore
UTH Burks
OKC Sefalosha
DET Cladwell-Pope? Stuckey? Billups?
ATL L.Williams?
PHX Brown
PHI Richardson?


Point Guard
CHI Rose
LAC Paul
OKC Westbrook
GSW Curry
SAS Parker
BKN Deron
WSH Wall
CLE Irving
BOS Rondo
POR Lillard
NOH Holiday
MIN Rubio
DEN Lawson
MEM Conley
NYK Felton
LAL Nash
<-----------SAC Vasquez
TOR Lowry
DET Jennings
ATL Teague
DAL Calderon
PHX Dragic
CHA Walker
HOU Lin
IND Hill
<---------------------if it were IT
MIA Chalmers
MIL Knight
ORL Nelson
UTH Burke
PHI Carter-Williams

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I don't disagree with your statement. I took issue with calling him an elite defender. An elite defender will be getting more than 1 vote on the all defensive team especially when Nene got a vote the same year.

You do know that you have to play a minimal amount of games in order to be eligible, right? Now, I don't know exactly what the minimum is, but I'll go to the bank with this: it's more than thirty-two out of eighty-two, or twelve out of sixty-six. You say you checked 2010-11? Why didn't you check the year before that? A healthy Bogut is an impact player on the defensive end, and yes, perhaps even "elite"; the numbers bear that out, and it would seem like the coaches agree.

EDIT - Also not sure if you're proving what you think you're proving by pointing out that Bogut only got one vote in the same season that Nenê did. Nenê played the best ball of his career that season; he was on top of his game, defensively. You know who else "only" got one vote? Just a couple of former All-Defensive guys by the names of Prince and Hinrich.

 

[rainmaker]

I don't disagree with your statement. I took issue with calling him an elite defender. An elite defender will be getting more than 1 vote on the all defensive team especially when Nene got a vote the same year.

He is an elite defender when healthy.

I take issue with you defining who is or isn't an elite defender based on media votes. It's an asinine argument when based on a year full of injuries.

Going by your premise, Rondo also isn't an elite defender either. Didn't get a single vote last year. Could it be that he only played 38 games? Apparently not, according to you.

And when the DPOY in Gasol places 15th overall in All-Defensive Team points, it shows just how ridiculous judging performance on votes means.

http://nba.si.com/2013/05/13/2013-nba-all-defensive-first-team-second-team-lebron-james-tony-allen/

Mike James received more votes than Rondo.....

 

[Section 101]

You do know that you have to play a minimal amount of games in order to be eligible, right? Now, I don't know exactly what the minimum is, but I'll go to the bank with this: it's more than thirty-two out of eighty-two, or twelve out of sixty-six. You say you checked 2010-11? Why didn't you check the year before that? A healthy Bogut is an impact player on the defensive end, and yes, perhaps even "elite"; the numbers bear that out, and it would seem like the coaches agree.

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/05/05/all.defense/index.html

Bogut had 8 votes, A Moute had 8 votes and 1 was a first place. But that was also 4 years ago and pre injuries so I wouldn't expect him to get back to the same level.

Bogut didn't get any votes the previous years.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

He is an elite defender when healthy.

I take issue with you defining who is or isn't an elite defender based on media votes. It's an asinine argument when based on a year full of injuries.

Going by your premise, Rondo also isn't an elite defender either. Didn't get a single vote last year. Could it be that he only played 38 games? Apparently not, according to you.

Nitpick, DPOY is voted on by the media. All-Defensive teams are voted by the coaches.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/05/05/all.defense/index.html

Bogut had 8 votes, A Moute had 8 votes and 1 was a first place. But that was also 3 years ago and pre injuries so I wouldn't expect him to get back to the same level.

Golden State's improvement from the All-Star Break on would seem to indicate otherwise.

 

[Section 101]

Golden State's improvement from the All-Star Break on would seem to indicate otherwise.

Doesn't mean he's an elite defender. Going from David Lee/Festus Ezeli at center to Bogut will do that too.

 

[rainmaker]

Nitpick, DPOY is voted on by the media. All-Defensive teams are voted by the coaches.

So going by section's premise, based on votes by the coaches around the league(All NBA Defense), Mike James and Tony Parker are better defenders than Rondo and in that case Rondo is not an elite defender.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Doesn't mean he's an elite defender. Going from David Lee/Festus Ezeli at center to Bogut will do that too.

I find the veracity of that statement to be somewhat questionable. You don't go from 23rd in the league to 14th in twenty-one games with "good" defender. Not even with a "very good" defender. A very good defender gets you to 14th if he plays all season. In twenty-one games, a very good defender gets you from 23rd to 18th.

The last two seasons that Bogut played with health, he was Top Five in Blocks, Top Five in Defensive Rating, and Top Ten in Defensive Win Shares, both seasons. If that's not "elite" for a center, I'd like to know what the hell is?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

So going by section's premise, based on votes by the coaches around the league(All NBA Defense), Mike James and Tony Parker are better defenders than Rondo and in that case Rondo is not an elite defender.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Rondo probably didn't play in enough games to qualify that season.

 

[rainmaker]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Rondo probably didn't play in enough games to qualify that season.

38.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Again, I don't know what the "official" number is, but I'm guessing it's >= 51%.

 

[Npliam]

I'd disagree. While neither of them were what they had been, in both cases the discussion at the time was centered around the idea that both of them were better at the end of their career than most of the other guys in the league were at their peek. More to the point Shaq and Kobe had already won 3 titles with out them.

As to the comments that winning team chemistry is lighting in a bottle, that might be true, but LOTS of teams still over perform because of chemistry while lots of other teams under perform due to bad chemistry. Having the BEST players at each position is NOT a guarantee of wining, in fact often times is is preferable to have roll-players at some positions, and complimentary pieces at others.

Malone missed most of the finals and Payton wasn't very good by then.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Malone missed most of the finals and Payton wasn't very good by then.

You folks keep missing the point, at that time Shaq was the most dominant player in the game and Kobe was still the best SG in the game. When LAC loaded up the roster with aged HOF players they WERE the role players to guys that had ALL READY won 3 titles with other roll players. They were hands down the most packed roster in the league that year. My point is that packing the roster does not always lead to a great team.

 

[sdballer]

You folks keep missing the point, at that time Shaq was the most dominant player in the game and Kobe was still the best SG in the game. When LAC loaded up the roster with aged HOF players they WERE the role players to guys that had ALL READY won 3 titles with other roll players. They were hands down the most packed roster in the league that year. My point is that packing the roster does not always lead to a great team.

And you're missing the point that even with two way past their prime guys and a crap bench those two stars carried a team to the finals.

What is this small town underdog mentality that seems to be all over this site of late where we're trying to convince ourselves that contending teams aren't based on having more star talent than the teams you compete against.

Yes, teams with tons of talent may not always win the biggest prize but they consistently get farther than the ones that have less. Bottom line and no real point in arguing against years of nba history.

 

[Bricklayer]

You folks keep missing the point, at that time Shaq was the most dominant player in the game and Kobe was still the best SG in the game. When LAC loaded up the roster with aged HOF players they WERE the role players to guys that had ALL READY won 3 titles with other roll players. They were hands down the most packed roster in the league that year. My point is that packing the roster does not always lead to a great team.

I'm not sure tagging a team that got to the NBA Finals, someplace this franchise hasn't been in 50 years, as something other than "great" is really very effective here. They were flawed and old, and fell short like many of the collections of oldsters have. But they still won 50+ and made it to the Finals.

 

[Sac.1989]

sum of the parts here. Boogie is clearly our star and McLemore our future. we will go as far as they take us with some team D and ball movement thrown in

 

[HndsmCelt]

I'm not sure tagging a team that got to the NBA Finals, someplace this franchise hasn't been in 50 years, as something other than "great" is really very effective here. They were flawed and old, and fell short like many of the collections of oldsters have. But they still won 50+ and made it to the Finals.

Perhaps a better example maybe this past seasons Lakers then. I will stand by the idea that while a team needs talent to be good, chemistry, and right fit make the difference,not just stacking up top players.

 

[Kingster]

Cousins is 10th from the top or 10th from the bottom. It depends. No way in hell is Cousins better than Horford. I don't care if Horford is a pf in center's clothing, he's better than Cousins because of mental toughness, consistency, and defense. Same holds for Noah.

I pretty much agree with the placement of the power forwards.

Luc is better than an old Artest. I'd put him ahead of World Peace.

Thornton - I'm in agreement

PG - IT is better than Walker, Lin, Hill, and maybe Dragic. I have no idea about Vasquez.

 

[Hadlowe]

Cousins is 10th from the top or 10th from the bottom. It depends. No way in hell is Cousins better than Horford. I don't care if Horford is a pf in center's clothing, he's better than Cousins because of mental toughness, consistency, and defense. Same holds for Noah.

I pretty much agree with the placement of the power forwards.

Luc is better than an old Artest. I'd put him ahead of World Peace.

Thornton - I'm in agreement

PG - IT is better than Walker, Lin, Hill, and maybe Dragic. I have no idea about Vasquez.

I agree that IT is better than Kemba. IT is not better than Lin, Hill, and Dragic solely because they are all pretty tough defenders in the backcourt and are full-sized for the position.

 

[mac]

I agree that IT is better than Kemba. IT is not better than Lin, Hill, and Dragic solely because they are all pretty tough defenders in the backcourt and are full-sized for the position.

I can guarantee that Indiana would not have made it as far with IT at PG instead of George Hill.

 

[mac]

Perhaps a better example maybe this past seasons Lakers then. I will stand by the idea that while a team needs talent to be good, chemistry, and right fit make the difference,not just stacking up top players.

I think what everyone is saying is that chemistry is important, but at the end of the day superb talent trumps all. Last year Lakers hardly played together with everyone plagued by injuries, and still made playoffs in the end. If anything I think the bigger problem with them was system. Made absolutely no sense to run D'Antoni's offense with their line up. Where you are correct is that whatever it is, there are only so many touches and shots to go around. Nash and Kobe can't both be dominant ball handlers and playmakers. So the question becomes whether you're better off with a typical role player at a certain position or a "star" that can fit that role even better. Take Chris Bosh for example. Channing Frye or Ryan Andersen or any stretch 4 that can rebound a little could probably assume the same role that Bosh plays on the Heat. But Bosh has adjusted to that super role player role, and just occasionally may take over a game for you. That's what talent does.

 

[pshn80]

Or is that what teamwork does? A case can be made either way. I'm not sure talent wins out. That's why continuing to be a Kings fan is and always has been an enjoyable experience for me.

 

[mac]

Or is that what teamwork does? A case can be made either way. I'm not sure talent wins out. That's why continuing to be a Kings fan is and always has been an enjoyable experience for me.

What I can't understand is why people make it seem as if talent and teamwork are mutually exclusive. The thing is, if you have talent there's always a chance that you can get them to play together or find a system that works. On the other hand a group of bench players may play very well together but will never have the talent to get you over the top. Let's not pretend that our Kings in their best days were not a talented team. They played well and team basketball, but were individually good players too.

 

[ESP47]

Talent is #1 and coaching is #2 but you can't be great without both of them.

Our heyday starters were multi talented for their positions.

Bibby - Shoot, pass, clutch, consistent
Christie - Shoot, pass, A+ defense
Peja - A+ shooting, moved well without the ball
Webber - A+ scorer, A+ pass, defense, shot blocking
Divac - Shoot, A+ pass, rebound, post moves, strength

Compared to our guys these days.

Vazquez - Pass
Thornton - Shoot, A+ clutch
A Moute - Defense
Thompson - High percentage scorer
Cousins - Pass, A+ rebounder, face up scoring, strength

There's not a whole lot of talent here compared to years past. Webber and Divac pretty much had as many skills as all 5 of our starters combined. We have a lot of 1 trick ponies on this team with Vaz, Thornton and A Moute. Thompson is well rounded but doesn't really do a whole lot at an above average level. Cousins has the most talent but has yet to become dominate on a nightly basis.