That doesnt neccessarily mean Reke should be the PG. I think what we is for Reke to be at his best. That goes for Cousins as well. So who would fit that role? IT tends to dominate the ball too much. Thornton takes too much shots. That leaves Jimmer, who in theory would be a good fit.
What to do with Tyreke
- Thread starter rainmaker
- Start date
That doesnt neccessarily mean Reke should be the PG. I think what we is for Reke to be at his best. That goes for Cousins as well. So who would fit that role? IT tends to dominate the ball too much. Thornton takes too much shots. That leaves Jimmer, who in theory would be a good fit.
ParniValjak
All-Star
Beno was a pretty good fit. Kirk Hinrich is probably as close to an ideal as possible from all the current NBA players.
IfAt1st
Starter
Except Jimmer is nothing like Beno.
Jimmer cannot handle the ball against an NBA pressure defense.
That's slightly (critically) different than Beno.
Jimmer's handle needs improving. But if he plays the Beno role, he wouldnt be doing a lot of ball handling, just roleplaying. He can hit the 3 pointer and midrange, and make a play when he has to, similar to what Beno did when the main guys weren't getting it done. They have their differences as a player, but i think he can play a role similar to how Beno played.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Beno did a LOT of ballhandling. He was the key second creater out there.
I'm actually more concerned about Jimmer's defense though. Tonight we saw utter scrubs just destroy him. And not as in just score. As in line up, say hey look its Jimmer!, have their eyes light u and go right at him again and again. Frankly I think fans of this franchise find that to be more acceptable than fans of most franchises where defense has always been expected, but what on Earth happens when you face Chicago or Oklahoma City or somehing? Its simply not a winning strategy except against certain cheerypicked matchups. You can play him against the Fisher/Blake Lakers. Maybe a few others. You would have thoguht you could have played him against an Ellisless and Curryless Warriors backcourt, but guess not.
Really what we have is excessive youth. This may be the point now when we hae to start to intentionally bring in quality vets who can handle themselves to fill some of these roles
Padrino
All-Star
there is nothing to say but "amen." i've been wanting to see it since last offseason. this kings team will not find its way with a head coach set on self-sabotage unless there is enough compelling evidence to sway him towards a more traditional rotation. that means a veteran upgrade at the starting PG and SF positions, at least. PF is a little tougher to plug, as a defensively-oriented rebounding presence is required next to demarcus cousins, but such players are also in short supply around the league. i'm content with jason thompson in the immediate sense, as long as smallball is swiftly extricated from the premises...
Beno had his share of ballhandling, but he wasn't our second guy out there. He could've been, but he deferred to Reke and Cuz and he let them do the creating. He did what he could and made his plays, but i wouldnt call him our key second creator.
Jimmer's defense is an issue. But that's the sacrifice. At the same time our SF spot gets opened up for another player, preferably Donte or Cisco, who can at least match up with the other SF.
If we look at our main guys it's Reke and Cousins. Defense and rebounding aside, what's special about them are what they do on offense. So while we take on Jimmer's defense, we put Reke and Cousins in the best position to play their game without holding back by having to share shots with IT or Thornton or whoever. It's more important to see these two develop and expand their game. That's where we get the edge.
Catalyst
G-League
I was looking for a specific person. Since you ruled out the draft, who are the Kings going to attempt to sign or trade for, and in the case of a trade, which pieces do they give up to do so? It's one thing to say there's a problem and explain why the problem exists, quite another to come up with a viable solution.
Catalyst
G-League
Beno Udrih? Really? It's not like Beno is a bad player, but he isn't a guy that's going to come in and win you a bunch of games at an NBA level.
I watched Beno here for four years, and the Kings had up and down talent levels for their personnel during that time. The guy was consistent and solid, and offered the Kings something they've missed since, but an impact player that's going to fix our current roster issues — he definitely is not.
Better than what we currently have? Yes. A long term solution that will get us back into the playoffs? Beno already proved the answer to that question with his four years in Sac. It's a definite no.
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Padrino
All-Star
that's not my job. i'm not an nba general manager. and even if i were to come up with a viable solution, it ain't like the kings' front office is takin' my advice over here. i feel like i'm a pretty good judge of talent, but the mechanics and nuances of trading hold no interest for me, and i don't have the patience to create elaborate simulations when the real business of the nba operates so differently from fan perception. i mean, seriously, who the ever-loving **** saw monta ellis being traded for andrew bogut before tonight?! beyond that, i HATE trade scenario threads. HATE 'em. i often avoid the personnel section of the forum just so i don't have to read another half-baked trade idea that likely would not help the kings one iota if consummated, anyway...
but, to get around to answering your question, there are definitely player-types i would target that could solidify the kings' rotation. in a recent thread, i brought up that i'd pursue jose calderon and nicolas batum (a free agent this summer), or gerald wallace, through trade, if you couldn't land batum. the nba is rather short on available starting-quality PF's who play defense and rebound well, but i would still also like to see samuel dalembert in a kings' jersey again. and i think such additions, on the whole, would help to provide a much more balanced approach to the kings' starting lineup. in my opinion, acquiring these kinds of additions is intensely preferable to trading tyreke evans, because these kinds of players would help complement evans' and cousins' respective games...
now how do the kings go about acquiring these kinds of players? i don't have the first ****ing clue. nobody does. should the kings rule out trades that don't involve evans altogether because we, the fans, can't conceive of how best to get it done? that's an awful suggestion, if its what you're driving at. and ultimately, what is it you want me to say? trade jimmer, greene, and picks to snag calderon? ship off thompson, thomas, and honeycutt to bring back wallace? drop thornton into a sign and trade for batum? i have no idea if any of this **** would work, no matter how cooked-up i could make it. its all fantasy, no matter how "realistic" the possibility may be. but i certainly don't believe that trading for mid-tier talents such as these is outside of that realistic realm of possibility, or that the kings would have to give up evans to accomplish those goals...
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You're so entirely off here. Wade's explosiveness and above the rim play is a major factor to him being on a level that Tyreke is not. Wade gets to the rim because he can explode and jump to the rim before the defense rotates. Tyreke does not. He rarely beats the help defense. Wade often beats help defense based on speed and athleticism. Beyond that, the showtime dunks get media attention, which gets NBA attention, which gets special ref treatment. That too is incredibly important to Wade's game.
Evans is not a slasher. He's a rodeo champ. Wade flies to the hoop. Wade runs right past the trees in the forest. Tyreke dribbles around the trees. He's doing an obstacle course while Wade is doing a sprint.
ParniValjak
All-Star
This is where we disagree. Beno was the veteran leader and the stabilizing influence on the young team. He was a great role player on this team. The team is in desperate need of good role player who can be effective without dominating the ball. Beno was exactly that player as was Dalembert. We decided to go in another direction and the results are clear.
Beno-Reke-Thornton 3 man backcourt rotation worked well because Beno's offensive game was versatile enough to play as a creator or off the ball as a role player. He could play with Reke and with Thornton and make the game easier for both. His leadership and stabilizing influence has been greatly missed. That is evident even to the blind.
Beno, defensive deficiencies and average 3pt shooting aside, was a perfect complement to the 2 other key players on the front court. His role on the team is obviously underrated by many. He handled the ball, ran the team, took his opportunities and found a way to be the most consistent and dependable player in all but one of the season of the extended contract.
There seems to be this myth that this team needs a star to get out of this mess. NOT TRUE! What this team needs is the right type of role players around Cousins-Evans-Thornton and those players are NOT Hayes, Outlaw, Salmons, Hickson, IT or Jimmer. Those players are Udrih/Hinrich, Dalembert/Ibaka, Kirilenko/Prince/Battier/Wallace/Batum types....you know the role player types with unique talents that complement the main 3 guys on this team. A good size PG that can run the team, play with and without the ball, a full sized big that can rebound, block shots and play defence and cover for the mistakes of others, a SF that can play lock down defence on SFs and some smaller/quicker PFs, who can pass the ball and hit the open 3 and actually be effective without needing the ball. That's what this team needs. Oh and we also need a coach who gets the ****s when someone mentions the small ball let alone play it and we sky rocket up the standings because you just beats teams with size. Plain and simple.
Cousins and Evans are unique talents and they complement each other well if we just surrounded them with better role players and played to their strengths something we just don't know how to do. This has been the off-season from hell followed by one of the most mediocre and underachieving season in franchise's history and when we are talking about Kings, that is saying something.
Give this team to Pop or Riley and they turn them around very quickly. The problem is there is no one in our organization that has a clue about what it takes to win the damn thing.
IfAt1st
Starter
uhhhhhh.... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS.
Damn, Carolija - hit that one out of the f-ing park.
Many people (especially here) did not remotely recognize Beno's importance to this team, and just saw fit to continue demonizing him from when he was scapegoated that one terrible season when they ALL tanked to get as high of draft pick as they could.
He was the stabilizing influence when the youth was freaking out on the floor and collapsing in the NBA pressure.
When the plays were breaking down, he would invariably penetrate and hit that sweet pull-up J to show the other guys they COULD score. This happened, game in and game out, for years, and yet people could only keep sawing their agendas and helped ride Beno out of town.
Only NOW do they realize what he provided. Well, I hope y'all like what you see, because without a vet PG who knows how to run an offense, this team (with or without Tyreke when he chooses not to extend, and no he doesn't possess those skills) is going down the crapper without him or someone with his skills (which were dismissed on KF's for YEARS).
Damn, Carolija - hit that one out of the f-ing park.
Many people (especially here) did not remotely recognize Beno's importance to this team, and just saw fit to continue demonizing him from when he was scapegoated that one terrible season when they ALL tanked to get as high of draft pick as they could.
He was the stabilizing influence when the youth was freaking out on the floor and collapsing in the NBA pressure.
When the plays were breaking down, he would invariably penetrate and hit that sweet pull-up J to show the other guys they COULD score. This happened, game in and game out, for years, and yet people could only keep sawing their agendas and helped ride Beno out of town.
Only NOW do they realize what he provided. Well, I hope y'all like what you see, because without a vet PG who knows how to run an offense, this team (with or without Tyreke when he chooses not to extend, and no he doesn't possess those skills) is going down the crapper without him or someone with his skills (which were dismissed on KF's for YEARS).
I think management was a bit down on Beno and Dalembert for not having a stronger presence as veteran voices.
The problem is that the management drafted headstrong young talent that is better than the vets. They aren't going to listen to a vet that they start ahead of. If management wanted a vocal leader of that magnitude, they needed to get a vet all-star that could be a main guy. I don't think they're even happy with Hayes' ability to influence the youngins.
The problem is that the management drafted headstrong young talent that is better than the vets. They aren't going to listen to a vet that they start ahead of. If management wanted a vocal leader of that magnitude, they needed to get a vet all-star that could be a main guy. I don't think they're even happy with Hayes' ability to influence the youngins.
IfAt1st
Starter
IMO, Hayes is currently poisoning the environment by repeatedly yucking it up on the sidelines of bad, BAD losses.
I've seen him onscreen doing so the last 3 bad losses. Heaven knows how bad he's screwing up the atmosphere when the cameras aren't on him and I'm not watching.
There is NO WAY IN HELL a solid vet should be laughing when the team just f-ed up and lost the game.
I admit that I was dead wrong about Hayes - I thought he would not only be a solid replacement for Dalembert (who I assumed would be making $10+ million), but an improvement in the leadership area. From what I've seen, he's been a step back in almost every area except passing.
Maybe he was laughing at how pathetic our team was playing
ParniValjak
All-Star
Good! He never should have been a trade bait to start of with. Lets try getting some right players around the 3 and a coach who knows how to coach real basketball and not this smallball bull**** that we are having shoved down our throats!
Mass
Starter
Who are the significant players in this team? Reke, Cousins and Thornton? Or do they mean IT, Salmons, Garcia, JT, JJ, Jimmer are also significant? I'm ready for a Hilton Armstrong or Marquis Daniels move...
Padrino
All-Star
why do you anti-reke posters keep bringing up absolutely negligible differences? i don't get it. both players get to the rim with startling efficiency, hence the slasher label for both. it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you get there. nba basketball is about putting yourself in a position to take a high percentage shot, and again, wade has just about the same exact conversion rate at the rim as tyreke, so what exactly is your point? if anything, it proves that tyreke is a superior slasher, because he doesn't have the above the rim game that wade has, yet he's still able to put the ball in at a similar rate when he gets to the basket...
so what does that leave? the calls? well, what do you expect? wade is a superstar on one of the top three teams in the league. tyreke is a growing talent languishing on one of the worst teams in the league. its not rocket science, but still, wade only takes about two more free throws per game than 'reke. that certainly does mean something, but its not any kind of major talent separation. here's what actually separates wade from tyreke, and it is significant: decision-making. wade, a nine-year veteran, is much better at reading defenses and assessing his role in a particular offensive set. evans, a two-and-a-half year veteran, hasn't developed that level of awareness yet. i don't give him a free pass on this point, but i do shift a healthy percentage of the blame to the kings' various coaching staffs. before he's even established himself as a consistent force in the nba, 'reke has been jerked around like crazy. he's been asked to play PG, SG, and SF, and has been asked to play any of those positions within a few different kinds of offenses, none of which are constructed to maximize his talent (and/or cousins' talent)...
i appreciate keith smart's ability to get through to his young players. that's admirable. but he's an idiot as a coach. both he and westphal were sitting on winning lottery tickets: demarcus cousins and tyreke evans, two talents of sizable potential. what a ****ing waste with these clowns for head coaches. ya know, regardless of what various individuals at kingsfans.com think, you do NOT need to get EVERYONE involved in an offense. that's the biggest problem with the kings right now, and the problem with kingsfans.com by proxy. everything's going in a billion different directions. some people pull for evans and cousins, some for one or the other, others for thornton, others for jimmer, others for isaiah thomas. its too much, and its a disaster to try and utilize it all effectively. you IGNORE all of that **** as a head coach. you run plays specifically designed for cousins. you run plays specifically designed for tyreke. you bring thornton off the bench as a second unit spark plug and scoring machine, a la bobby jackson. you order everyone else to play a role, and then you appeal to your front office to surround your two most talented players with guys who can help to move the ball, play a bit of defense, rebound effectively, and shoot a solid percentage from the outside...
rick adelman would be having an absolute field day with this team. if he weren't already having great success with minnesota in his first season there as head coach, he would KILL to run his offense through cousins in the high post. he would KILL to run pick-and-pop all day with evans and cousins, who has an incredibly polished mid-range game for a 21-year old center. THIS is how you put talented players in a position to succeed. you spread the floor with the talent available. it opens the game up for tyreke, which in turn opens the game up further for cousins. you DO NOT take away your own strengths as a team. adelman knows how to do it right. he knew how to do it when he coached in sacramento. he's doing it right now in minnesota. its no secret that kevin love is having one of the best seasons of his career under his new head coach. he's averaging nearly 26 and 14. that's superstar quality. oh, and this is the same player who was only seeing 20 minutes a game under former head coach kurt rambis, another candidate for the idiot pile. a good head coach means everything in this league. and sometimes its enough just to have a head coach who will get out of his own way. kurt rambis got in the way in minnesota. mike brown's been getting in the way in LA. paul westphal got in the way in sacramento, and keith smart is following in his footsteps...
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ParniValjak
All-Star
Overall it has been a shocker, hence why tonight you have 6'4 Thornton guarding 6'9 Prince because he has no hope in hell against 6'5 Stuckey!
Section 101
All-Star
Neither did Evans on Stuckey.
Lol bro, did Evans kill your family? Seriously, what's your beef with him? It's like your sole purpose in life is to ensure that the world knows of the evil that is Tyreke Evans.
Section 101
All-Star
Forgive me for saying this, but you are not "just pointing out" anything. A good 90% of your posts are all about how Evans sucks, how Evans is overrated, how Evans isn't good for our team etc. Anyway, whatever, life goes on. Cheers!
Section 101
All-Star
Never said he sucks. He's just not the overhyped player that the organization and fans make him out to be. Funny how I've been saying since his rookie season that they gave him too much control and needed to teach him to play off the ball. Now 2 years later most everyone is saying the same thing.
I really don't hate Evans. I hate the way he has been portrayed since being drafted and overhyped like he was the next coming of LBJ around here. The way people see the Jimmer fanatics post is exactly the way the people post here about Evans. They just fail to realize it.
