What to do with Tyreke
- Thread starter rainmaker
- Start date
Padrino
All-Star
i posted that video to illustrate that players who know how to get to the rim--whether they lay the ball up or dunk it--find success in playoff series. seeing dwayne wade dunk on the kings' defensively anemic frontline, however, doesn't prove a damn thing...
and i've watched several heat games this season, and wade is most assuredly not dunking at the rate he used to. but regardless, tyreke--who we have effectively established does not dunk the ball very often--converts at the rim at nearly the same rate as wade--a nine-year veteran--so what exactly IS your point?! reading your posts is like watching someone feverishly rearranging chairs on the deck of the titanic...
rhythmless
Starter
I agree with a lot of what's being said here. Couple caveats: as long as the talent level stays the same around here, you're going to be hard pressed to relegate our LEADING SCORER to the bench. He, like most of us, would just take a look around the team as constructed and take it as a slap to the face.
In addition, Evans has not shown the ability to be a point guard. He doesn't get DMC in position to score, he doesn't dish off when needed, he doesn't direct the team. He will look off hot hands to get his. He kills momentum sometimes in order to get his slashing game going. He's been able to carry a team for short spurts, but always in the name of getting his own. When defenses correct he needs to realize it, set up plays where the offense will focus on him more, and lead teammates to easy scoring positions. Tyreke is not on a level where he can defer for his team, then pick up the slack when needed.
I keep harping this: Tyreke needs either the jump shot or ability to gauge what the team needs and what the defense is giving him, and direct his team. Pick one. The former will put him in the Joe Johnson/Roy/Wade/Gordon/Harden/Parker mold of do it all guards. The latter will put him with Kidd/Rondo team leading do it all but shoot point guards. Put these two together, and you get Rose/Deron/Irving. Do nothing, and you have a spectacular Larry Hughues. Great defense, good highlights, always the glimmer of something more.
Section 101
All-Star
Guess you missed the point that Wade does more than get to the rim and those things like making a defense come out to defender a jumper makes it easier for him to get to the paint. Unlike Evans who in a playoff series will have the paint packed against him.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
My lord. I never thought you had any credibility on Reke, but you have managed to completely eliminate even a shred of it with a profoundly stupid series of posts. Were you for any particular reason actually PLANNING on removing the thin veil you've put on your Reke hate for the last couple of years? Because that's all you've done here.
Indeed, Reke could be a beastly dunker, he just doesn't wanna. Couldn't be that he has to get his steps just right and be on balance to get over that rim. And he fades away on his jumper because one of the most physical guards in the NBA is scared of body contract. And just...LOL. This is sad man. It goes far beyond not being fair or reasonable. Its just flat out malicious at some point, and toward one of our own. You should never have let it get this far out of control. You treat Evans like your sworn enemy who must be put down by any means necessary, fair or not.
Padrino
All-Star
i don't buy it. wade's not a good jump shooter. the further out he gets, the worse his percentage gets. he's actually shooting worse from three than tyreke this season, at 15% vs. 22%. now, wade does have a solid midrange game, but you're seriously telling me that 22-year old tyreke evans, unequivocally, will not be able to develop even a passable midrange game in the next few seasons? damn near NONE of the players in this mold--WADE INCLUDED--developed midrange games until several seasons into their careers. your argument's rubbish, friend. you don't deal away a young talent who, even when not playing up to expectation, manages 17/5/5 per game...
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Then I guess you missed the point stated, over, and over, and over again, that if you have an elite penetrator who isn't a good shooter, you surround him with much better shooters than we have. Much easier to sag off against a guy like Reke when he's surrounded by guys like Cisco/Donte/Salmons.
Yet, why was it so hard to sag off Wade and clog the lane with 3-4 defenders? Because when he's won, he's been surrounded by some of the best, spot shooting role players in the league. When he's lost, not so good shooters or supporting cast.
Section 101
All-Star
Who has the crystal ball now? We are talking about right now this next game where Evans does not have a jumper.
Yet they don't stand 5-8 feet off Wade at the 3 pt line like they do Evans.
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
isn't a packed paint a good thing with some good shooters around reke? marcus thornton, jimmer and a good shooting SF would get open looks from defenses collapsing on reke. we have an elite talent that forces the opposing team to change their defensive scheme.
Padrino
All-Star
i'm not accessing a crystal ball. i am accessing the now. evans is averaging 17/5/5 this season, and he's played better than this. there is corresponding evidence. and, evidence or not, i am fully ready and willing to admit that tyreke evans is a flawed player who may never become what i hope he will become. i wield no crystal ball. i just play the odds. i've said it before and i'll say it again, giving up on a 22-year old slashing talent who's not playing up to expectation, yet still averaging 17/5/5, is asinine. its just not done, despite the suggestions of detractors...
oh, for the record, defenses refuse to sag off of wade because of the talent around him, not because he can hit consistently from the perimeter. that should be woefully obvious in the era of "the big three." you don't worry about wade's pathetic 15% three-point shooting. you worry about what he can do from triple threat at the three point line, because there are weapons all around him...
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
No!
It's Reke's fault he can cause the defense to collapse on him, not the shooters and bigs fault for bricking open shots and bumbling dump offs out of bounds.
There's no need for a penetrating guard in this league that can get others open shots. What kind of a ludicrous theory is that? Given our league worst shooting core, it's Reke's fault for passing it to them in the first place. Until Reke is good enough to hit open shots for Cisco/Donte/Salmons, I want no part of him. That's right, Reke needs to set up our shooters, and somehow convert the shot for them. Since he can't, and his prime has passed him at 22, trade his *** to Charlotte for a real player like Augustin for all I care.
T4L3NT3D530
G-League
Catalyst
G-League
OK, moving Thornton to the bench could work, but how do the Kings solve their PG issues?
Gary
All-Star
Evans and Thornton wont work on the floor together if they are both playing guard positions. That's already been proven. Worst a/to ratio as a team, and last in assists by far as a team.
So what do you do?
1) Bench MT when he's really done nothing to deserve being benched which could mess up the chemistry. Yes I know they are professionals, but they still have feelings. It could rub off on other teammates.
2) Bench Evans and start a normal sized SF while keeping IT at PG. Evans has done nothing to be benched either but he's not a SF. Smart putting Evans at SF should tell you that he has no idea what to do with him either and he does not want to bench either him or MT because they are both playing well and do not deserve it.
That's why I say just keep it the same and worry about who you are going to trade/bench in the offseason to make things work. Come back next year with a plan moving forward. I think Evans would be fine at SG, and I agree you don't need to shoot the lights out from long range if you are a SG.
BUT you do need a minimum of two threats on the floor that can hit 3pt shots or the D just clogs the middle and takes away Evans strongest asset. So in the draft we need a PG and a SF. I think we can get by with Thompson and Hayes splitting time at PF.
Reke should be playing as an SG.
Has everybody forgotten that he was a 20 ppg scorer in his rookie year? That's why i've never understood the make him a PG thing. He put up 20 PPG at 45% shooting with a broken jumpshot. Why confuse him by telling him to be the PG? Why put the playmaking, creating, running the offense stuff in his head? Why suppress his natural instinct to score to make him be something he's obviously not? That's what i saw with Reke, a natural scorer, who was and still is one of the best in the game at one aspect ( his driving and finishing ), who was desperately missing the other parts of the game that would make him a nightmare for any team to defend.
You make him a PG, and you bring his defiencies to that position. You hold him back, and our team back, while wasting his potential at being a top offensive threat in this league. Make him a SG, and all of a sudden his jumpshot, 3 point shot, off the ball play becomes the number one priority. No longer does he need to be the guy to make the pass, or the guy who gives the ball to Cousins and Thornton, no longer the guy who everybody looks to to set somebody up. Instead he'll be the guy looking to do what he does best, and that's score. The 5 assists? That was purely the result of his scoring ability. It wasn't his "PG" instincts. It was a product of him driving to the rim and making the decision to pass. That's what he should be doing. Developing his game while doing what he does best - ill say it again - SCORE.
The PG stuff has held him back. By now he's playing at the SF position. He's spent the last year and more trying to play the PG position. It's not too late to have him continue developing the game he had in his rookie year.
As a final point, him playing the SG would be easier to coach because it opens up the PG spot for another guy who can fill the role.
Has everybody forgotten that he was a 20 ppg scorer in his rookie year? That's why i've never understood the make him a PG thing. He put up 20 PPG at 45% shooting with a broken jumpshot. Why confuse him by telling him to be the PG? Why put the playmaking, creating, running the offense stuff in his head? Why suppress his natural instinct to score to make him be something he's obviously not? That's what i saw with Reke, a natural scorer, who was and still is one of the best in the game at one aspect ( his driving and finishing ), who was desperately missing the other parts of the game that would make him a nightmare for any team to defend.
You make him a PG, and you bring his defiencies to that position. You hold him back, and our team back, while wasting his potential at being a top offensive threat in this league. Make him a SG, and all of a sudden his jumpshot, 3 point shot, off the ball play becomes the number one priority. No longer does he need to be the guy to make the pass, or the guy who gives the ball to Cousins and Thornton, no longer the guy who everybody looks to to set somebody up. Instead he'll be the guy looking to do what he does best, and that's score. The 5 assists? That was purely the result of his scoring ability. It wasn't his "PG" instincts. It was a product of him driving to the rim and making the decision to pass. That's what he should be doing. Developing his game while doing what he does best - ill say it again - SCORE.
The PG stuff has held him back. By now he's playing at the SF position. He's spent the last year and more trying to play the PG position. It's not too late to have him continue developing the game he had in his rookie year.
As a final point, him playing the SG would be easier to coach because it opens up the PG spot for another guy who can fill the role.
I think this entire argument going on here revolves around differing beliefs regarding Tyreke realising his potential. No one is saying they'd rather have Evans than Wade today. If Tyreke gets a jumpshot will Section101 still hate him? If he doesn't by next season many here will think a lot less of him. Then that just means he can't be a cornerstone as someone said.
I just think we should be patient and give him another off-season or two. Don't see what's so hard about that. I understand section's pains as a season ticket holder though. It's a lot harder to be patient when you're spending a lot on a team that seemingly isit getting better with Tyreke as the main guy. But in the bigger picture you just don't give up on a player like Tyreke this early.
I just think we should be patient and give him another off-season or two. Don't see what's so hard about that. I understand section's pains as a season ticket holder though. It's a lot harder to be patient when you're spending a lot on a team that seemingly isit getting better with Tyreke as the main guy. But in the bigger picture you just don't give up on a player like Tyreke this early.
Gary
All-Star
If/When we start Evans at SG we need a SF and a PG that can hit the 3 or else it would take away Evans slashing game because the opposing team could just stack the lane and take away his drives. Evans is getting better at moving without the ball, but it's a tough pass to constantly have to make in traffic. When he gets by his defender there will be 4 more than could easily collapse on him. I think that might be the concern with people wanting him to develop an outside shot.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
The amusing thing is you keep on chanting this as a mantra while:
1) it was no longer true by the time the trade was made, and was consistently on the uptick after the disastrous start.
2) that this was Reke's fault despite Thornton, Cousins and Salmons producing incredibly selfish statlines and the bench being completely moribund and contributing nothing.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
That's what winning teams need. Someone who can get by their guy and make the defense collapse. And we have a 22 yr old who can do that at an elite rate, with a broken jumper. Now I'm not going to sit here and say Reke makes the best decision once he does get into the teeth of the defense. I've been critical of him there. He gets by his guy easier than anyone on this club and most in the league, and gets to the rim at an elite rate. But what if that final step is cut off? That's where he has problems. 3-9 ft out. But he has improved greatly in finding the open man,and created open shots in half court sets far more than any other player on our squad.
And what do our open men do when the defense collapses and Reke finds them? They brick at the 2nd worst rate in the league. That is a huge issue. Fix that, Reke's ast number magically go up, his penetration all the sudden makes the team click, and everyone looks better. Does Reke need to be a point to do that? No. But he's much better at it than IT or MT. IT gets most of his asts in transition. Put a guy like Hinrich next to Reke and have have no problem with him playing the 2.
Padrino
All-Star
look, its simple. in the nba, you have exactly three options: draft, sign, trade. and you're not gonna find a steady, veteran PG who is a willing passer but can also spot up for the occasional outside shot in the draft, so you either have to sign one or trade for one. more to the point, the kings traded a serviceable PG who can move the ball but doesn't require a ton of shots to milwaukee last offseason, so clearly its possible to obtain a starting-quality PG through trade in the nba, although i simply would not have traded beno udrih to begin with, and certainly not with the intent to bring back john effing salmons...
so i guess the first step to solving the kings' PG issues is to STOP making these kinds of mistakes. geoff petrie should be clubbed upside the head for that one. actually, the maloofs should be clubbed upside the head for that one. actually, i'd just knock their heads together as if they were the three stooges for that one. the maloofs asked for jimmer fredette, and they got him, but after re-signing marcus thornton became a priority, beno udrih became expendable, and he was traded to the detriment of balance in the starting lineup. i'm not saying it will be easy to acquire a starting quality PG that fits our description of need, but its necessary. and a good front office does what is necessary to improve the team...
drafting evans and cousins were two excellent steps forward. trading for thornton was another excellent step forward, as was re-signing him. but those three players don't constitute a rebuild, and its not clear that all three belong on the court together at the same time. the simple solution is to shift thornton to the bench, and then do what is necessary to fill in the gaps. hell, they acquired thornton in a trade with new orleans. now go out and do it again. this time you're not even looking for a difference-maker. you're looking to bring over a guy with less talent than thornton, but one who might better serve the kings needs. it shouldn't be an impossibility, and i don't understand why some kings fans feel that it is, at least they believe so enough to consider trading away a young talent like tyreke evans for it. my problem isn't with the method. there is no problem there. draft, sign, trade. nuances aside, its a pretty simple process. my problem is with the kings' front office, because i'm not certain that they recognize winning formulas or traditions, and instead attempt foolish gambits of redundancy. the unfortunate casualty, of course, is the development of this young kings team...
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Gary
All-Star
And that is why he either needs to develop a shot or the PG and the SF need to be threats. Unless you are talking about putting Evans back at PG.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Right now Reke is our best PG, on both ends, until there is a roster move. Get a legit starting PG, then move him to SG.
Gary
All-Star
1) The stats speak for itself. Dead last in the league in assists per game as a team, and last in the league in a/to ratio as a team. Whether or not the team was getting better is still up for discussion because there was the honeymoon period after getting a "players coach" in Smart. He's a very likeable coach, so the players probably played extra hard once he got the reigns. And don't say that doesn't happen because it does, in almost every job.
2) Who was the PG? It wasn't Cousins, Thornton or Salmons. It's Evans job to run the offense and if others are holding the ball he needs to step up and have a talk with the team. Or it could have been that the other players did not trust in Evans PG or leadership abilities? Nobody knows.
Bottom line is that Smart caught on to what Westphail couldn't. That the offense runs much smoother with someone that can see the floor. IT does that, and even though his stats have gone way down since he jumped into the starting lineup the team still is middle of the pack in assists per game since he was inserted. He's not a long term solution but I don't think we need to bench him and go back to the way things were at the start of the year.
That being said it's time to watch the game.. No PBP tonight for me
Worked too late.
Gary
All-Star
I will have to disagree with that based on the team stats with Reke vs. It starting. But I do agree we need to get a PG in the off season.
This is the first time I'm kinda agreeing with you in a long time. Here's the deal for me. I don't see why so many people choose to focus on Tyreke's flaws, when he's clearly not our biggest problem. Every single player on the team needs to become better for us to win. People are all crazy about DMC, yet what improvement has he shown from last season? Nothing major if you ask me. He's shown improvement in controlling his fouls and emotions, hustling on the boards and some other small things. He still doesn't have a reliable post game. Tyreke has also shown improvement in smaller areas like moving the ball, moving without the ball, and has put in work into his jumpshot, though he doesn't have the results to show for it, sadly. Everyone talks about Tyreke being a one trick pony, but Cousins would similarly be shut down by a guy like Dalembert and be turned into an outside shooting Spencer Hawes at this point. Tyreke has also been yanked around from position to position, and hasn't received a lot of proper coaching.
Simply put, I don't think Evans is our main problem. It could be how he's being used. He needs to improve his jumpshot for us to win, just as DMC needs to get a better post game. There's no way we win a championship without both of them getting better. It frustrates me to see Evans getting the most criticism when IMO he has been just as good a player as DMC has. Both guys tend to disappear at times. I'd rather be patient and give the team time to develop, because I feel that we have 2 very special players, instead of throwing it all away so early. Let's have this conversation again next year after we give Tyreke one or two last offseasons to prove that he can take it to the next level.
rhythmless
Starter
Uh... what? Nothing major? How bout leading the league in offensive rebounding, being 4th in the league in rebounding, averaging almost 17 points throughout the season (and a lot more recently, with better efficiency), adding half a block to his stats, lowering his turnovers and fighting with the officials less? Try this: 19/12, a block and an assist in February.
His TOs are down simply because he's not forcing passes as much, which is why his assists are down as well. Offensive rebounding? I talked about his hustle on the boards. And in any case, I don't think these are areas that he's really improved in. In his rookie year we already said that he was an excellent rebounder. Again, it's nothing major.
And for the record, I think that just goes to show how talented Cousins is. Like you said he's putting up very very good numbers and playing well, and I still feel he hasn't made any major improvements since coming into the league. The next step for him is either developing a consistent post game or getting much better at defense, just as for Evans it's getting a jumpshot and running an offense better.
