What to do with Isaiah Thomas?

I agree. To get that many assists you must be the more ball dominant PG, and that's what we don't need next to Reke/Cuz, a ball dominant PG. It's not even about true PG or not, pure PG or not, it's about ball dominant or not.

And, it's why I'm quickly moving towards wanting Douglas given a shot as our starting PG next year. Is he a pure PG? No. But, he's not ball dominant and is more than willing and capable of playing off it. That's what we need. His defense is even more impressive.

indeed. a lot of kings fans just don't like grind it out basketball. they don't like iso-heavy basketball. they don't like it if it's ugly. many were spoiled by rick adelman's corner offense. it was beautiful. it was brilliant. and it was also of a moment. it's terribly difficult to find the right set of players with the skills necessary to run such an offense. despite the nba's every effort to loosen up passing lanes by tightening their foul rules, the league's defenses are getting stronger and more sophisticated. it's difficult to play assist-heavy basketball at the professional level these days, even with the personnel necessary to do so. what's more, playoff basketball continues to be grind-it-out basketball. it continues to be a defensively-minded basketball, and it relies on the talents of isolation players to come up big during critical moments...

i and many others have consistently maintained that building on demarcus cousins and tyreke evans, surrounding them with complementary, defensively-minded roleplayers, is a one-way ticket to the playoffs. growing a balanced team anchored by those two players is as good a strategy as any in a small market environment. unfortunately, "balance" hardly describes this team since the drafting of tyreke evans. DMC would fall in geoff petrie's lap the following offseason, but, after that, it's been one ****storm of ineptitude after another. no defense. no rebounding (after we let samuel dalembert slip through our fingers). and, at one time, the kings' backcourt rotation seriously consisted of tyreke evans, aaron brooks, marcus thornton, isaiah thomas, jimmer fredette, and francisco garcia. scorers all around. 'cisco was the closest thing to an actual roleplayer among them, and he was a great lockerroom presence more than anything else. people around these parts actually believe that demarcus cousins and/or tyreke evans are the problem? bums me out to see the collective wisdom among kings fans plummet as it has in the last five years or so...
 
This is something I don't understand, and it's not directed at you only but others who take this viewpoint as well. Reke is younger and more talented than IT yet yourself and others are more than willing to put a limit on him. Don't ever want to see him playing the point again, yet we have IT who's older and has more experience running the point, yet struggles just as much. But, some seem to want to be patient with the older and less talented player while not extending that same patience to Reke.

Why exactly is IT worth being patient with yet Reke is not? It's a contradiction I don't understand.
Thomas is young.

I won't recommend Thomas for the bench role until we get a better PG.

We should be patient with Thomas because he is young and inexperienced and talented.

tyreke and Cuz are younger and why does that have anything to do with Thomas.

i have no problem with Thomas being a 6th man bu right now he is the best PG we have and is doing a good job.

and just who are you talking about not having patience with Tyreke? I have nothing but patience with Tyreke and has paid off. And, incidentally I had little patience with him at PG from his early days.
 
indeed. a lot of kings fans just don't like grind it out basketball. they don't like iso-heavy basketball. they don't like it if it's ugly. many were spoiled by rick adelman's corner offense. it was beautiful. it was brilliant. and it was also of a moment. it's terribly difficult to find the right set of players with the skills necessary to run such an offense. despite the nba's every effort to loosen up passing lanes by tightening their foul rules, the league's defenses are getting stronger and more sophisticated. it's difficult to play assist-heavy basketball at the professional level these days, even with the personnel necessary to do so. what's more, playoff basketball continues to be grind-it-out basketball. it continues to be a defensively-minded basketball, and it relies on the talents of isolation players to come up big during critical moments...

i and many others have consistently maintained that building on demarcus cousins and tyreke evans, surrounding them with complementary, defensively-minded roleplayers, is a one-way ticket to the playoffs. growing a balanced team anchored by those two players is as good a strategy as any in a small market environment. unfortunately, "balance" hardly describes this team since the drafting of tyreke evans. DMC would fall in geoff petrie's lap the following offseason, but, after that, it's been one ****storm of ineptitude after another. no defense. no rebounding (after we let samuel dalembert slip through our fingers). and, at one time, the kings' backcourt rotation seriously consisted of tyreke evans, aaron brooks, marcus thornton, isaiah thomas, jimmer fredette, and francisco garcia. scorers all around. 'cisco was the closest thing to an actual roleplayer among them, and he was a great lockerroom presence more than anything else. people around these parts actually believe that demarcus cousins and/or tyreke evans are the problem? bums me out to see the collective wisdom among kings fans plummet as it has in the last five years or so...

And what's more, Kings fans that have been around long enough to remember those great offensive teams of the early 2000s should also remember that that team made it to the Western Conference Finals exactly once. And lost. Should have probably won that one at least, and the 8 year playoff run was a lot of fun while it lasted but in retrospect the evidence points to that team being better in the regular season than they were in the playoffs. I love watching efficient offense as much as the next fan but remember what the end goal is here. The team that we should be building around Cousins and Evans has more in common with Shaq and Kobe's Lakers than our Greatest Show on Court Kings -- and that's probably a good thing. Pound the ball down your throat post offense is a proven winning formula. It's not the prettiest style of basketball but it's effective. Four guards running around shooting three pointers might win you one playoff series or if you're really lucky, two. It's not taking you all the way though. And even a highly orchestrated team offense like Adelman's system has a limited shelf life without the requisite muscle to back it up. It works up until you run into the biggest bully on the low-block. And then he takes your lunch money (figuratively speaking).
 
indeed. a lot of kings fans just don't like grind it out basketball. they don't like iso-heavy basketball. they don't like it if it's ugly. many were spoiled by rick adelman's corner offense. it was beautiful. it was brilliant. and it was also of a moment. it's terribly difficult to find the right set of players with the skills necessary to run such an offense. despite the nba's every effort to loosen up passing lanes by tightening their foul rules, the league's defenses are getting stronger and more sophisticated. it's difficult to play assist-heavy basketball at the professional level these days, even with the personnel necessary to do so. what's more, playoff basketball continues to be grind-it-out basketball. it continues to be a defensively-minded basketball, and it relies on the talents of isolation players to come up big during critical moments...

i and many others have consistently maintained that building on demarcus cousins and tyreke evans, surrounding them with complementary, defensively-minded roleplayers, is a one-way ticket to the playoffs. growing a balanced team anchored by those two players is as good a strategy as any in a small market environment. unfortunately, "balance" hardly describes this team since the drafting of tyreke evans. DMC would fall in geoff petrie's lap the following offseason, but, after that, it's been one ****storm of ineptitude after another. no defense. no rebounding (after we let samuel dalembert slip through our fingers). and, at one time, the kings' backcourt rotation seriously consisted of tyreke evans, aaron brooks, marcus thornton, isaiah thomas, jimmer fredette, and francisco garcia. scorers all around. 'cisco was the closest thing to an actual roleplayer among them, and he was a great lockerroom presence more than anything else. people around these parts actually believe that demarcus cousins and/or tyreke evans are the problem? bums me out to see the collective wisdom among kings fans plummet as it has in the last five years or so...

I still think its possible for us not be an iso heavy team and win, just that it will take a bloody good GM and coach like Pop to acquire or draft players that fill specific needs, and then to get guys to move the ball. The Spurs have very high assist numbers despite having a PG who is primarily a scorer. But there's a reason why that team has won 50 games for 15 consecutive seasons and I can assure you it has a whole lot to do with the person coaching the team.

All I ever hear from the fans who complain about our offence is that we need to move the ball more, players need to move more. Rarely is it mentioned that if you don't set good off ball screens or practise good spacing all the movement in the world will do you no good. Have you ever seen opposing teams switch on their SF/SG coverage against us? Yet, every single game we see Evans and Salmons having to switch when a screen is set in the post for both their men to change sides. People criticise Evans for standing around, but even when he cuts to the basket there is no space for him because JT hangs around the basket on one end, and Cousins has the ball in the low block on the other.
 
trade him for a high pick and try to fill some other holes. we have like 8 guards on the team. IT is not the solution at PG. i thought casspi was selfish.. IT is almost up there with him.
 
If you're unable to, or unwilling to install an offensive system it really doesn't matter what players you have.
 
A lot of this discussion is moot because the Kings have led the NBA in scoring for half the season with Thomas at the point.

How about averaging 7-8 assists per game? That is what most of the good PGs that have started the whole season have put up.

The National Press seems to value Thomas a lot more than Kings' fans.
 
True. I only say this because he's show that he is arguably the best PG on our team. At least as a starter, he'd get more minutes than the other guys.
 
True. I only say this because he's show that he is arguably the best PG on our team. At least as a starter, he'd get more minutes than the other guys.

Nope. Especially lately, that is not a guarantee of anything. Look at Reke's minutes recently.

Anyway, this is all pretty much moot in a couple of days. We'll have much better things to talk about (from the eternal optimist VF21). :)
 
even with Chris Paul starting we'd probably only have 32-35 wins.

there's only so much you can do when no one has any idea what their job is on the court.

Bingo. I look at how we beat down bad teams on a consistent basis as proof of where our true problems are. The second we play against a good team, especially defensive-minded squad, we crumble because there isn't a system in place.
 
Once we have a "real coach" IT will be put in his proper role. Spark plug. He's a good role player and Smart's Mini-me. Will he ever be a starting PG that leads an NBA team to the playoffs much less contenders? My Magic eight ball says "doubtful"
 
Some people here like Kingster, understand the potential of a player like Thomas. If you are going to play in the NBA at 5' 8" you better have a ton of confidence.

Some people want him to come off the bench and be a sparkplug. Who is going to start? Douglas is a career backup PG in my opinion with above average defensive skills and a good compliment to Thomas. Most of the criticism he receives is undeserved except for his defense which needs to improve. Especially fighting thru picks. Forget about how he was drafted. Until someone better comes along Thomas is the PG. Evans plays too slow to run the Kings' offense.
 
Some people here like Kingster, understand the potential of a player like Thomas. If you are going to play in the NBA at 5' 8" you better have a ton of confidence.

Some people want him to come off the bench and be a sparkplug. Who is going to start? Douglas is a career backup PG in my opinion with above average defensive skills and a good compliment to Thomas. Most of the criticism he receives is undeserved except for his defense which needs to improve. Especially fighting thru picks. Forget about how he was drafted. Until someone better comes along Thomas is the PG. Evans plays too slow to run the Kings' offense.

again, all i see is offense, offense, offense. you might start a player like toney douglas precisely because he plays defense. he's not the ideal guard to start next to tyreke evans, but defense gets you closer to the playoffs. you'll get plenty of offense out of cousins and evans. you'll get offense from IT off the bench, where he's best suited. but the starting unit requires an infusion of defense. thomas has some potential, yes, but in the framework of your rebuild, cousins and evans are your developmental priorities. "slow" isn't bad. "iso" isn't bad. in fact, isolation basketball is what you're most likely to find in the playoffs, because playoff basketball is defensive basketball, where teams have up to seven games to scout you, to take away what you want to do on offense...

but the stars of this league (who are most often isolation players) are good enough to prevail in spite of what the defenses throw at them. demarcus cousins and tyreke evans are tremendous iso talents. we should be looking to craft playoff-style basketball built around that talent. that means bringing in veteran defensive role players to fill in the gaps. the offense will come. and even when it doesn't, you're still closer to the playoffs with a great defense than you are with a great offense. memphis is perpetually struggling to score (27th in points scored per game), but would you look at that, ranking 1st in points allowed per game in a tough, gritty western conference earns them the 5th seed. whereas the kings, in all of their isaiah thomas-hyping anti-glory, have no problem scoring (10th in points scored per game), and finished as the 13th seed because of their bottom-of-the-barrel defense...
 
again, all i see is offense, offense, offense. you might start a player like toney douglas precisely because he plays defense. he's not the ideal guard to start next to tyreke evans, but defense gets you closer to the playoffs. you'll get plenty of offense out of cousins and evans. you'll get offense from IT off the bench, where he's best suited. but the starting unit requires an infusion of defense. thomas has some potential, yes, but in the framework of your rebuild, cousins and evans are your developmental priorities. "slow" isn't bad. "iso" isn't bad. in fact, isolation basketball is what you're most likely to find in the playoffs, because playoff basketball is defensive basketball, where teams have up to seven games to scout you, to take away what you want to do on offense...

but the stars of this league (who are most often isolation players) are good enough to prevail in spite of what the defenses throw at them. demarcus cousins and tyreke evans are tremendous iso talents. we should be looking to craft playoff-style basketball built around that talent. that means bringing in veteran defensive role players to fill in the gaps. the offense will come. and even when it doesn't, you're still closer to the playoffs with a great defense than you are with a great offense. memphis is perpetually struggling to score (27th in points scored per game), but would you look at that, ranking 1st in points allowed per game in a tough, gritty western conference earns them the 5th seed. whereas the kings, in all of their isaiah thomas-hyping anti-glory, have no problem scoring (10th in points scored per game), and finished as the 13th seed because of their bottom-of-the-barrel defense...

well said. i'm sick n tired of seeing a midget in the backcourt chucking it up. i think grant n jerry promote him bc he is part of the corporate sponsorship (pizza guys).
 
patterson at the SF? no.

i want to see
Reke
Thornton
Someone we pick up during offseason
Patterson
DMC

I would love to see Thornton traded for a defensive minded PG or some unselfish Combo-Guard, that can play off the ball. I m sick of watching him take dozens of contested jumpers in a game, while being uncapable to use screens to get some uncontested looks to the basket.
 
I would love to see Thornton traded for a defensive minded PG or some unselfish Combo-Guard, that can play off the ball. I m sick of watching him take dozens of contested jumpers in a game, while being uncapable to use screens to get some uncontested looks to the basket.

That's called Toney Douglas, my friend. But if he leaves via FA, we can always go after Norris Cole. I love his game, it's all defense and pass it to the other guy.
 
No matter what I want tony Douglas back he may even be a better backup than IT, with the league flooded with offensive minded guards having a starting backcourt full of defensive players seems like the perfect counter. On a competitive team in the west no less IT is best served as second or third option of the bench.
 
I think this debate can be divided into several groups. One group is in love with Thomas, and he can do no wrong. Another group just doesn't like Thomas, and he can't do anything right. In the middle of this discussion are people that understand basketball, but who are also influenced by personal dislike or likes, one way or the other. I fall somewhere in the middle. I like Thomas, but my experience in basketball tells me what his limitations and advantages are. What this discussion is really about in the end, is what kind of team do you want going forward? They come in all sorts of flavors, but its the ingredients that make up those flavors that matter.

Like everyone else, when I go down the breakfast cereal isle, I pick my flavor of choice. Cherrios usually wins, with bran flakes coming in a close second. So what kind of basketball do you like? Isolation, or unselfish ball movement. And which ever way you choose, do we have the right ingredients? The Miami Heat play for the most part isolation basketball, and they won an NBA championship with it. However, they do have Wade and Lebron on their team. Phil Jackson has so many rings that he's running out of fingers, but he's played a motion type of offense, both with the Bulls, and the Lakers. Despite the fact that he had great isolation players on both teams in Kobe and Jordan.

The truth is, you do need one or if your lucky, two great go to guys when you have to have a basket. But just because you have them, it doesn't mean you have to play that way all the time. We have on the Kings, in my humble opinion, two very good players. Players with the potential to be all stars. But after that, based on potential alone, we have a large drop off. And thats OK, as long as you utilitize those players properly, and those players are the right fit next to your two best players. That however, is not the case! Thomas is a better SG than he is a PG, and that would be OK as well, if he were to take on the Mike Bibby role and play off the ball. That wouldn't solve his defensive liabilities, but it would help the offense. JT is fine on offense as long as he stays out of the way, but when we run plays through him, which seem token at times, such as, well, he certainly deserves a turn, then we become very predictable and easy to defend.

Yes, we score a lot of points on offense, but at what price. For every missed three, or fast break point, how many points do we give up at the other end when we get lost in transition, or complain about the and one, we didn't get. We don't play as a team. We play as a group of individuals each taking his turn at the firing line. When forced into a halfcourt set, we are perhaps the most predictable team in the NBA. We become stagnent with little or no ball movement. As they say, the ball moves faster than a player dribbling the ball. And please, don't tell me we can't pass the ball because the other team is clogging the passing lanes. You spread the floor properly, and I guarantee you you can find lanes to pass the ball in. Even teams that rely on isolation basketball, move the ball better than we do.

So what kind of team do you want? One that relies on one on one play, or a team that moves the ball not caring who scores it, but that that player has a high percentage shot. How many times do want to watch a team like the Spurs, pick us apart piece by piece with crisp passes and players moving without the ball. Some of our problem is personnel, and part of it is coaching. Nothing most of you didn't know already. There are a lot of changes that I would make, that I won't go into right now. Enough to say, that some players would be gone, and some that are starting would be coming off the bench. And not coming off the bench as a demotion, but because I believe it would help the team be better.

This debate is not as much about Thomas, as it is the style of basketball you want to play. Someone implied that the style played by Vlade and Webb etc. won't work now. Thats nonsense! It'll work, but it requires disclipine. You need players that are capable passers and enough players that can hit the open shot. We have all of those ingredients, we just don't have the coaching, the incentive, nor the experience. Our player development is terrible. Instead of developing players, we keep trying to steal other teams developed players and plug them into our system. In a way, thats an admission of failure in player development. If you plant your own seeds and grow your own crops, you'll get what you want. Otherwise, you become a bus stop where players just pass through on their way to someplace else.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top