What has to happen to move forward next year

[iowamcnabb]

team offensive rebounding in the playoffs

 

[macadocious]

Thank you. I feel like there was A LOT of overreaction in here.

 

[sactowndog]

Here's where I think a lot of people go off track -- this series was as close to 50-50 as it gets. The Kings and Warriors were evenly matched in the regular season and evenly matched in the playoffs. By the time they got to Game 7 each team had won a blowout game, each team had won a road game, and each team had a chance for a knockout blow (Kings in Game 3 or 4, Warriors in Game 6) and blown it. I think if we replay Game 7 a hundred times the Kings win half of them and the Warriors win the other half.

Now that we know the result you can work backwards and find all the things the Kings did wrong in that one game but the reality of what happened in Game 7 is that a lot of Kings shots went halfway down and out, a lot of loose balls bounced right to the Warriors. Random chance decided this game more than anything the Kings did. If half of those close misses fall it's a different game. If the ball doesn't constantly bounce to the Warriors in the third quarter it's a different game. If Curry misses 3 or 4 more jumpers it's a different game. Should we alter our entire off-season approach based on random chance?

There's a lot of talk about rebounding technique but again I think most of these takes are confusing results with process. Here's how I think of rebounding: divide up the space under the basket into 3 pie slices (1) right baseline (2) middle (3) left baseline. If you put a body in each slice and the opponent does not, you win the rebound. If you and an opponent both share a slice the goal is to get enough leverage to ensure that you secure the ball if it bounces to your area. It's still a game of probabilities. Stronger players have an advantage because it's harder to get leverage on them but even if you do everything right, you can't be in three places at the same time. The solution is to send more bodies or do a better job of denying your opponent leverage.

Here's what I see in the rebounding footage:

(Reb 1-5 0:00 - 0:40) The Kings offense is so perimeter oriented that they don't bother to send anyone under the basket to fight for an offensive rebound, they just concede their own misses to GS. Keegan is the only one who makes a move toward the basket and he does get the tip-out on the last play here. Looney then gets the long carom because he'd just taken himself out of rebounding position on Monk's jumper.
(Reb 6 0:41 - 0:58) Klay uses a Looney screen to get by Kevin Huerter. The Kings do not switch but Domas is ready for the drive and slides easily under the basket to make a good contest taking both him and Thompson out of rebounding position. Huerter is trailing the play but makes no effort to box Looney out. Even without boxing out, Huerter is still in position to beat Looney on a ball bouncing to the middle or the right baseline but the rebound goes to the left baseline and Looney makes the easy put-back over Huerter for the and-1.
(Reb 7 0:59 - 1:07) Moody flops on Sabonis' contact but the refs ignore it. Sabonis is then sandwiched between Moody and Looney under the basket on Lyles' 3pt attempt. If you pause it when the ball hits the rim, Moody is forcing Sabonis back into Looney who has two hands on Sabonis' back preventing him from jumping. Looney then jumps over Sabonis to tip the ball to Moody.
(Reb 8 1:08 - 1:16) Looney is forced to contest Huerter's midrange jumper but then quickly turns around and the Warriors have 3 defenders under the basket with Moody boxing out Lyles on the right baseline, Looney in the middle, and DiVincenzo on the left baseline. The ball hits back iron and Looney secures it. The remaining 4 Kings players are all at the three-point line.
(Reb 9 1:17 - 1:28) Sabonis and Fox run a dribble hand-off on the right wing and Fox drives left getting a layup attempt with his strong hand over Wiggins. Sabonis crashes the glass knowing that Fox is going all the way to the basket but Draymond turns and boxes him out. Looney is guarding Barnes on the play and Barnes clears out to the left corner. Looney keeps one foot in the paint before bailing to avoid the 3 second call. Draymond fights Sabonis for the rebound and it bounces over the top to Looney. The warriors have 4 players in the paint when the ball is secured and the Kings just have 1.
(Reb 10 1:29 - 1:38) Barnes fakes Draymond out of his shoes and should jump into contact to get to the line but instead he pivots and dumps the ball to Sabonis who drives into Looney and rushes a little half hook that comes up short. Sabonis is once again the only Kings player in the paint.
(Reb 11 1:39 - 1:45) After a perfect dump off pass from Huerter Sabonis whiffs an easy one and the ball bounces off the rim straight to Looney.
(Reb 12 1:46 - 2:04) Draymond screens off Davis to force a switch and Keegan has Curry trapped on the sideline but fails to step up quickly enough and Curry dribbles out of it. Fox has an angle to cut Curry off and force a jumper but he swipes at the ball instead leaving Sabonis as the last line of defense. Sabonis steps up but Curry fakes him into the air then short-arms the reverse layup. Huerter is cheating off Klay on the weak side but gets boxed out of the play by Looney. The Kings have the rebounding numbers advantage on this play and Looney gets away with an obvious over the back on Sabonis to secure the rebound. Curry misses a corner three then Wiggins misses a put back dunk and the ball inexplicably finds Curry again who is too good of a player to miss three times in a row and he connects on the floater.
(Reb 13-14 2:05 - 2:40) Looney screens off Davis near the logo forcing Domas to check Curry at the three-point line. He moves his feet well to deny the middle of the floor and Curry tries to sell contact and misses a wild up and under layup. Huerter has to stick on Klay in the left corner but Keegan and Fox are both cheating into the paint on the weak-side. Keegan steps up into the right baseline position and Fox needs to immediately step into the middle but he floats near the free throw line keeping himself out of the play. As the shot goes up Keegan is screening off Draymond on the right baseline, Sabonis is in position on the left baseline and Looney is crashing the glass in the middle with Davis doing his best to gain leverage. The ball bounces right to Davis but Looney is stronger and takes it from him. Wiggins then drives on Fox who steps up instead of sliding his feet and Wiggins drives into Fox and pushes off drawing his 4th foul on a play that Coach Brown decided not to challenge. Fox made two mistakes on this possession and was rewarded with his 4th foul because of it. On the free throw attempt the Kings have three players in position but the ball hits back iron and bounces straight to Looney anyway.
(Reb 15 2:41 - 2:58) Huerter and Mitchell have Curry trapped on the left sideline but he manages to get the ball to Draymond who swings it to Wiggins who is now wide open on the right wing with Monk caught in the middle guarding no one. Sabonis realizes he's the only Kings player on that side of the floor and stunts toward Wiggins but he's too far away so he decides to keep his position and fight Looney for the rebound as Huerter and Monk both run at Wiggins and take themselves out of the play. Sabonis and Keegan turn to box out on the right baseline and left baseline, respectively but Klay is clever and runs around Keegan to secure the middle position. Keegan turns and chases Klay leaving Sabonis to fight Looney for the long rebound. This is just a jumpball situation but the ball is moving to the only place on the floor where Looney has leverage.
(Reb 16 2:59 - 3:10) This is just like the previous Wiggins free throw miss except this time it's Payton that Keegan has to box out on the left block and Huerter knows what happened last time so he puts a body on Looney instead of jumping to the middle of the paint as the shot goes up. Looney gets away with another over the back push on Sabonis and tips the ball into the bottom of the rim. The carom is secured by Huerter.
(Reb 17-18 3:11 - 3:37) Okay, this is the play I think most people are focusing on. It's the first obvious misplay by Sabonis and he just looks tired. Poole throws up a crazy step-back three and the Kings have 3 players crashing the glass. Monk turns to find Payton and boxes him out on the left baseline. Keegan and Domas are both securing the middle with Looney boxed out at the free throw line and Thompson out of the play in the right corner. As the ball hits the rim this is a 90% chance of a Kings rebound. The only way the Warriors get this ball is if Payton wins leverage over the smaller Monk or the ball somehow finds Looney over the top. The ball hits back rim and caroms toward the left wing where Payton is able to outjump Monk for it. That's just a tough bounce. Monk had 9 rebounds in the game so it's hard to fault him for his technique either. Payton kicks out to Wiggins on the left wing who immediately throws up a three. Huerter turns to box out Klay on the right baseline, Domas needs to box out Looney in the middle though because no one is on the left baseline position. Failing to box out Looney here gives him 2/3 of the rebounding pie and that's exactly what happens. The ball hits the rim twice and rolls out straight to the left baseline position and Looney reacts faster than Sabonis. On the ensuing scrum Wiggins is wide open under the basket and Sabonis now has to step up to contest a dunk which he does successfully and he even lines up to rebound the ball but it rolls on the rim and he mis-times his jump giving Looney another free rebound and putback. I just chalk this play up to fatigue. The last 6 Looney rebounds have all occurred within 2 and a half minutes of game time and Sabonis is exhausted.
(Reb 19 3:38 - 3:46) This is the first play of the 4th. At this point in the game the Warriors have stretched what was a closely contested game into a 10 point lead at the start of the 4th. Sabonis is exhausted but this is Game 7 so he stays on the floor. Klay isolates against Monk on the left wing and drives right into the paint. Klay has a step on Monk but Monk adjusts to cut off the drive and Klay settles for a fadeaway jumper. Unfortunately, Sabonis had to be ready to stop the drive if Klay continued all the way to the basket so he doesn't even turn to locate Looney until Klay is into his shooting motion. This shouldn't matter though since Barnes is in the left baseline position and both Fox and Monk should step up into the right baseline and middle positions respectively. Sabonis is now fully inside the charge circle and is too far under the basket to box out Looney but he tries anyway. The ball goes to the middle which Monk has just vacated to step into the right baseline position instead. Fox never steps up at all. Looney is able to beat Barnes to the middle and he's at the free throw line when he secures the ball. This play felt like a sort of knock-out blow and it only happens because Fox didn't crash the glass like he was supposed to.
(Reb 20 3:47 - 3:57) This play starts with another Sabonis to Fox dribble hand off at the three point line. Fox drives under the basket then kicks to Barnes for a wide open three point shot from the right corner. As the shot goes up Fox is falling out of bounds leaving Sabonis as the only Kings player in the paint. Draymond has him boxed out on the left baseline position and Looney has the middle and the right baseline uncontested. The ball bounces to Sabonis and he whiffs it. Looney picks it up after it hits the floor.
(Reb 21 3:58 - 4:10) I don't remember the context but when this play starts Huerter is switched onto Draymond at the midcourt line and Sabonis is on Thompson. Draymond nearly losses it then shovels it to Curry on the right sideline. Draymond hip checks Sabonis after the pass to take him out of the play and Thompson runs behind Curry (out of bounds nearly the whole way) to get a wide open corner three on the right side. Thompson is so wide open he dribbles once like he's attempting a free throw while Huerter runs to contest. Keegan and Monk are now the two Kings players in the paint but Keegan was considering making a run at Klay and has lost track of Looney completely leaving Monk to box him out on the left baseline position. This goes about as well as expected. Looney high points it above the rim and Monk has no chance.



This is partly true. Sabonis was the rebound king in the regular season but he didn't play Golden State all 82. Also, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the Kings won the rebounding battle for the overall series. Single game results are flukey. We can point to areas where the Kings can improve but I don't agree that the Warriors came out with more intensity in Game 7 and the Kings failed to match it. That's sports talking head nonsense -- whoever wins the game gets the "rose to the occasion" label without fail, right? On a lot of the rebounds in that video Sabonis is out of position because he's forced to contest the shot or he times his jump and the ball bounces on the rim a second time. The Kings can't expect him to fight 1 on 3 on the glass and win with regularity.

good work but might be better to split offensive and defensive rebounds. It was the offensive rebounds leading to extra possessions that hurt them that game. Kings had the same problem with Adams.

 

[sactowndog]

Watching how freely Jokic shoots from all over the floor makes the difference pretty clear. Defenses can't sag back against him which opens up way more passing lanes for him as well. Domas isn't a bad shooter, he may never be Jokic but if he just shoots with enough volume everything changes.

The GSW series making it so obvious to everyone - including the Kings given how Domas started shooting more late in the series - means this is something we should see change a lot next year

not to mention back door cutting lanes for our wings and offensive rebounding lanes for Keegan. Looney being able to play a deep drop and Sabonis unwilling or unable to make him pay was the key to the series.

 

[TaxMan]

Reading through all these comments and it seems to me we are kind of right back at the same question with Domas. You have an immensely talented and and hard nosed player, with some specific limitations in his game…. Or maybe more specifically limitations based on his physical attributes. I think it’s a bit silly to point at domas’ rebounding as a ‘problem’, but comes back to the same question of who do you pair him up with on the front line to best cover his weak spots while allowing him to continue to thrive as he did all season. It seems like it’s been declared that he can’t play the 4 or he can’t play with a traditional big man, but a lot of that seems to be based on his specific experience with Miles Turner. That could all very well be true but I personally didn’t watch enough pacers games to declare that the gospel.

I feel like Monte and coach brown are going to be thinking a fair amount about other ways he can be utilized both on offense and defense and I wouldn’t be surprised if the identity and balance of this team pivots a bit to give us more flexibility in how domas can be used and paired with. The ‘pair domas with shooters’ philosophy may have just simply been easier to accomplish last offseason, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are grander visions at play. I also wouldn’t be surprised if our offense never reaches the same height as it did last year as we move towards a more balanced roster and game plan.

I personally feel like some of the broad conclusions by the national media that you just can’t win with domas as your focal point are just ridiculous. You’ve got people like Kevin O’Connor saying this, but at the same time saying he voted domas to 3rd team all nba. I’m sorry, but if you are good enough to be on an all nba team, you aren’t the ‘problem’. The team just needs to figure out how to get the pieces to work around him. For some players, roster construction is more challenging, but they have got to keep evolving.

 

[Chupacabra]

I think the best the Kings could do without sacrificing offense and getting better is basically just finding a better rebounding/defending HB.

Who that is idk. Most I can think of is Jerami Grant but there may be someone else I'm not thinking about.

Any ideas?

Reduce HB's minutes and find someone who can bring those things off of the bench?

 

[ockingsfan]

Reduce HB's minutes and find someone who can bring those things off of the bench?

Problem would be that if we re-sign HB, we're going to most likely have to pay him a high starter level salary (i.e. $18-24 mil/year). HB will be counted on for the same amount of minutes, if we re-sign him to a big contract.

You can't spend that much on a PF if you're going to have to reduce his minutes. Either we go all in on HB as our starting PF or we move on to someone that covers Domas's shortcomings (a defensive PF with more length, a 3 and D Power Forward).

 

[kingwin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1655292874567843840

 

[Stan.Helsing]

I think those are the correct things.
Kessler Edwards has a chance to be a bigger part. Full size wing who is just quick enough to guard a Devin Booker
I’d like to see a similar player to Edwards but who is already established and better.
Basically quick wings with length to compete against the Warriors, OKC, LAC…teams with multiple wings
Feels like HB had difficulty in this series due to being a bit slow.
I’d like More shooting….maybe Sasha can become a deadly weapon

Herbert Jones fits the bill for me. He is 6'8", highly mobile, a lockdown defender, gets transition buckets, decent enough three-point shooter (34%).

Then, if the FO also makes a successful offer for Cam Johnson... the strongest lineup that Mike Brown could put out:

- Fox (6'3"), Herb (6'8"), Murray (6'8"), Cam (6'8"), Sabonis (6'11")

Basically, something a bit similar to the Raptors using a bunch of 6'9" guys... except the three guys around Fox and Sabonis are 6'8", good off-ball movers, and can shoot a lot better... and Fox and Sabonis are better than FVV and Poeltl too, lol.

To help alleviate the rebounding issue, I would also try to trade for Jericho Sims from the Knicks, as one of the backup Centers. He should not be expensive to trade for, and is a rebounding beast on defense and offense. Sims can be very useful for 15-20 minutes per game (more if he reduces the number of fouls he commits). He also provides a better PnR lob threat than anyone currently on the roster.

The number of possible combinations for the coach will be endless, as you can see below.

- Fox/Davion/Monk, Herb/Huerter/Monk, Murray/Herb/Huerter, Cam/Murray/Lyles, Sabonis/Sims/Len?

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I personally feel like some of the broad conclusions by the national media that you just can’t win with domas as your focal point are just ridiculous. You’ve got people like Kevin O’Connor saying this, but at the same time saying he voted domas to 3rd team all nba. I’m sorry, but if you are good enough to be on an all nba team, you aren’t the ‘problem’. The team just needs to figure out how to get the pieces to work around him. For some players, roster construction is more challenging, but they have got to keep evolving.

They may not be implying that he's a "problem" for a winning team that makes the playoffs,...but questioning whether he's a focal point top 2 player for a realistic contender. It would be hard to be convinced after that series, but we'll have to wait to see next time around, because another good season that ends up falling off in a playoff series isn't going to be inspiring for anyone with this question

 

[ockingsfan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1655292874567843840

If Jonathan Issac would take a vet minimum type deal to prove he can stay healthy and contribute, I would absolutely try to sign him. If he could stay healthy, he would be an ideal fit next to Sabonis. Low risk-high reward type move

 

[dude12]

I’m not in love with Cam Johnson as much as some here. Has some good offensive shooting numbers. I just remember him not being good at defense.

Herb Jones would be a nice piece but he’s not a guy that’s going to produce much offensively but would be a great lockdown defender at the 3……I think it could be problematic to have he and Davion on the floor at the same time. Would have to surround them with offensive oriented dudes.

 

[Stan.Helsing]

I’m not in love with Cam Johnson as much as some here. Has some good offensive shooting numbers. I just remember him not being good at defense.

Herb Jones would be a nice piece but he’s not a guy that’s going to produce much offensively but would be a great lockdown defender at the 3……

Good points. It's why I want both, Herb and Cam, because I feel their strengths cover the other's weakness. Cam's three point shooting makes up for Herb, and Herb's defense makes up for Cam. Although, I feel like I must add that Cam is reasonably solid in a team's defensive scheme and is not a negative... but he may be weak on rebounding.

Cam is a lot like Murray IMO, and I think it would be good to provide Fox and Sabonis with two forwards who can shoot and move off the ball like I think Cam + Murray will do, leaving Herb to fill the gaps where he sees them.

I think it could be problematic to have he and Davion on the floor at the same time. Would have to surround them with offensive oriented dudes.

That is true. I think the roster will have a lot of offensive options with Fox, Huerter, Monk, Murray, Cam and Sabonis... so they may not have have to share too much time together.

What do you think of these?

- Fox, Herb, Murray, Cam, Sabonis
- Fox, Huerter/Monk, Herb, Cam/Murray, Sabonis
- Davion, Huerter/Monk, Murray, Cam, Sabonis

 

[twslam07]

Herbert Jones fits the bill for me. He is 6'8", highly mobile, a lockdown defender, gets transition buckets, decent enough three-point shooter (34%).

Then, if the FO also makes a successful offer for Cam Johnson... the strongest lineup that Mike Brown could put out:

- Fox (6'3"), Herb (6'8"), Murray (6'8"), Cam (6'8"), Sabonis (6'11")

Basically, something a bit similar to the Raptors using a bunch of 6'9" guys... except the three guys around Fox and Sabonis are 6'8", good off-ball movers, and can shoot a lot better... and Fox and Sabonis are better than FVV and Poeltl too, lol.

To help alleviate the rebounding issue, I would also try to trade for Jericho Sims from the Knicks, as one of the backup Centers. He should not be expensive to trade for, and is a rebounding beast on defense and offense. Sims can be very useful for 15-20 minutes per game (more if he reduces the number of fouls he commits). He also provides a better PnR lob threat than anyone currently on the roster.

The number of possible combinations for the coach will be endless, as you can see below.

- Fox/Davion/Monk, Herb/Huerter/Monk, Murray/Herb/Huerter, Cam/Murray/Lyles, Sabonis/Sims/Len?

What’s the trade you are proposing that would land us Herb Jones?

 

[LPKingsFan]

If Jonathan Issac would take a vet minimum type deal to prove he can stay healthy and contribute, I would absolutely try to sign him. If he could stay healthy, he would be an ideal fit next to Sabonis. Low risk-high reward type move

Is he a free agent? This shows he has two more years with $7.6 million guaranteed next year.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/orlando-magic/jonathan-isaac-23601#:~:text=Jonathan Isaac signed a 4,dead cap value of $7,600,000.

 

[ockingsfan]

Is he a free agent? This shows he has two more years with $7.6 million guaranteed next year.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/orlando-magic/jonathan-isaac-23601#:~:text=Jonathan Isaac signed a 4,dead cap value of $7,600,000.

Look at the tweet I was responding to. Looks like Orlando has an out on Issacs contract due to his injuries. Looks like they may waive him and save themselves some money. I think they need to decide by end of June or his contract becomes guaranteed, the deadline is right before free agency begins.

 

[Joshoua]

I was just gonna post the Issac news that’s the guy we need to go all in on dudes an elite defender when he plays

 

[twslam07]

Is he a free agent? This shows he has two more years with $7.6 million guaranteed next year.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/orlando-magic/jonathan-isaac-23601#:~:text=Jonathan Isaac signed a 4,dead cap value of $7,600,000.

The guaranteed part is if they waive him. It just means they can’t get out of his contract for nothing. They could easily cut him this off-season, pay him his $7.6 mil, and be on their merry way.

 

[hrdboild]

Reading through all these comments and it seems to me we are kind of right back at the same question with Domas. You have an immensely talented and and hard nosed player, with some specific limitations in his game…. Or maybe more specifically limitations based on his physical attributes. I think it’s a bit silly to point at domas’ rebounding as a ‘problem’, but comes back to the same question of who do you pair him up with on the front line to best cover his weak spots while allowing him to continue to thrive as he did all season. It seems like it’s been declared that he can’t play the 4 or he can’t play with a traditional big man, but a lot of that seems to be based on his specific experience with Miles Turner. That could all very well be true but I personally didn’t watch enough pacers games to declare that the gospel.

I feel like Monte and coach brown are going to be thinking a fair amount about other ways he can be utilized both on offense and defense and I wouldn’t be surprised if the identity and balance of this team pivots a bit to give us more flexibility in how domas can be used and paired with. The ‘pair domas with shooters’ philosophy may have just simply been easier to accomplish last offseason, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are grander visions at play. I also wouldn’t be surprised if our offense never reaches the same height as it did last year as we move towards a more balanced roster and game plan.

I personally feel like some of the broad conclusions by the national media that you just can’t win with domas as your focal point are just ridiculous. You’ve got people like Kevin O’Connor saying this, but at the same time saying he voted domas to 3rd team all nba. I’m sorry, but if you are good enough to be on an all nba team, you aren’t the ‘problem’. The team just needs to figure out how to get the pieces to work around him. For some players, roster construction is more challenging, but they have got to keep evolving.

I had a lot of false assumptions about how badly Domas got outworked in Game 7 too. Looking at the game tape in detail, I think he actually had one of his best games of the series in terms of his decision-making and reaction times. A lot goes on under the basket which is difficult to decipher in real-time. The unfortunate thing about losing a playoff series though is that now everyone is subjected to the same tired sports cliches -- suddenly people who've never even played basketball in their life are openly questioning if these guys are "good enough to win in the playoffs" when all that really happened that day is that our team lost a game. Free throws were missed, open jumpers were missed, loose balls bounced the other way. No single player is to blame nor should one game make us forget the entire rest of the season. Domas came in 7th for MVP voting right? That's a guy you give max money to and build around.

 

[Kingz19]

I would love for the Kings to pick up Isaac. Even looking rusty and timid running he was making a big impact in his short stint this season. He proved he really hasn’t lost what made him a special talent…but also hasn’t proved that his body can hold up.

He’s supposed to be fully healthy by this summer and ready for workouts and training camp…

… but Orlando will move on from him because they already have so many lanky young forwards and bigs and chances are they’ll be adding atleast one more(Jarace Walker probably) in the draft lottery. They’ll want to free up the money or some veterans and playing time.

Kings could get him on a team friendly deal but he obviously can’t be the guy that is brought in to be the starting 4. They should look at what Metu’s role was this season and maybe plan that for Isaac and if he’s healthy and contributing, the Kings are better and he can work his way up to a larger role…or if he’s injured then that’s it.

He’s exactly the kind of talent the Kings need though. Not sure if the Kings will get him though since they don’t seem to be the flier type. I’ve been wanting them to take a flier on every underachieving lottery pick of the last 5 years and they never take a flier.

Detroit probably will since they take a flier on everybody, but it would be cool if it’s the Kings. I’ve wanted Isaac for awhile.

 

[Stan.Helsing]

What’s the trade you are proposing that would land us Herb Jones?

I'm saying who I would like the FO to target. If they're seeing things the same way I am, then it is up to them to figure out a trade with the Pelicans FO. The Pelicans have a player option on Herbert for next season that is real cheap and he provides value to them on defense. Yet they need more shooting around BI and Zion at the SG/SF position (depending on how you classify BI), and have Dyson Daniels who could feasibly take on Herb's role next season. So the Pelicans do not need to trade him but Herbert might be someone the Kings need more than the Pels do. A trade proposal will need to be something that gets the Pelicans to part with a player they do not need to part with. Only the two FOs can know this, and the Kings FO won't know unless they ask the Pelicans FO.

If you're asking what I hope it would take? Something similar to what the 76ers gave up for De'Anthony Melton.

 

[twslam07]

I'm saying who I would like the FO to target. If they're seeing things the same way I am, then it is up to them to figure out a trade with the Pelicans FO. The Pelicans have a player option on Herbert for next season that is real cheap and he provides value to them on defense. Yet they need more shooting around BI and Zion at the SG/SF position (depending on how you classify BI), and have Dyson Daniels who could feasibly take on Herb's role next season. So the Pelicans do not need to trade him but Herbert might be someone the Kings need more than the Pels do. A trade proposal will need to be something that gets the Pelicans to part with a player they do not need to part with. Only the two FOs can know this, and the Kings FO won't know unless they ask the Pelicans FO.

If you're asking what I hope it would take? Something similar to what the 76ers gave up for De'Anthony Melton.

What would be a package that we can offer that would be similar to the one that returned Melton?

 

[206Fan]

Reading through all these comments and it seems to me we are kind of right back at the same question with Domas. You have an immensely talented and and hard nosed player, with some specific limitations in his game…. Or maybe more specifically limitations based on his physical attributes. I think it’s a bit silly to point at domas’ rebounding as a ‘problem’, but comes back to the same question of who do you pair him up with on the front line to best cover his weak spots while allowing him to continue to thrive as he did all season. It seems like it’s been declared that he can’t play the 4 or he can’t play with a traditional big man, but a lot of that seems to be based on his specific experience with Miles Turner. That could all very well be true but I personally didn’t watch enough pacers games to declare that the gospel.

I feel like Monte and coach brown are going to be thinking a fair amount about other ways he can be utilized both on offense and defense and I wouldn’t be surprised if the identity and balance of this team pivots a bit to give us more flexibility in how domas can be used and paired with. The ‘pair domas with shooters’ philosophy may have just simply been easier to accomplish last offseason, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are grander visions at play. I also wouldn’t be surprised if our offense never reaches the same height as it did last year as we move towards a more balanced roster and game plan.

I personally feel like some of the broad conclusions by the national media that you just can’t win with domas as your focal point are just ridiculous. You’ve got people like Kevin O’Connor saying this, but at the same time saying he voted domas to 3rd team all nba. I’m sorry, but if you are good enough to be on an all nba team, you aren’t the ‘problem’. The team just needs to figure out how to get the pieces to work around him. For some players, roster construction is more challenging, but they have got to keep evolving.

You hit the nail with this one.

Having Fox-Domas as your two best players are always going to cause issues because they both struggle to shoot the 3 ball AND defend. I want to talk about both of them together because their limitations go hand in hand when it comes to roster construction and style of play.

Regular season issues:

Focusing on the just the offense, their lack of shooting means that we need floor spacers around them. Everyone in the starting lineup has to be at minimum, a good shooter. Both players are ball dominant and play best with the ball in their hands whether it means facilitating or scoring. This means that everyone around them should be able to move without the ball. Monte did a great job last offseason surrounding Fox and Sabonis with both of the above, and we ended up with the best offense in the NBA this year: Prolific 3pt shooting, prolific scoring, great movement, good passing, etc. Barnes was a solid 3rd option because he can consistently create his own shot and score in isolation. The offense was not a problem for us.

Focusing on the defense, we have major issues on this end because of both Fox and Sabonis. Fox struggles to contain the point of attack while Sabonis struggles to protect the rim. It's a recipe for disaster that leads to a chain reaction of bad defense. Fox's man blows by him > Sabonis' lack of length struggles to alter shots > Kevin sinks down to help > Barnes rotates over to cover > Someone doesn't rotate to Barnes' man > wide open 3. Repeat re-rinse for the regular season. In general, poor defensive PG play is not unexpected and is easier to cover, however, poor interior defense is more uncommon and harder to cover. This means we need a legitimate interior defender because if they get pass Fox or Huerter, they'll still be met with force/length down low. But we've already decided that Sabonis at the 4 didn't entirely work to the best in Indiana. Sabonis is also not the most lateral player and struggles to contain the perimeter. The Kings avoided switching Sabonis as much as they could this year. Defense was a problem all-year long and it's how we let team stay with us.

Playoff Issues:
The Kings' entire "woes" in the playoffs were much different than our regular season struggles. It flip-flopped, and our offense became the problem, while our defense was solid. This was a very matchup dependent struggle. A large part was due to the Warriors being a 3pt reliant team who facilitated off of Draymond and Looney. They don't have consistent down-hill attackers, which didn't lead to a lot of open 3s unless it came off screening action and DHOs. What actually killed us on defense was our lack of rebounding. Not enough boxing out, not enough high-pointing rebounds, and just not enough effort. This created a lot of second chance opportunities for the Warriors. On offense, our 3pt shooting completely went cold for reasons unknown (maybe the moment was too big for Huerter). When our 3pt shooters aren't making their shots, it forces Sabonis, Fox, and Barnes to create their own offense. Sabonis struggled badly against Looney and Draymond. I don't want to break this down into exhaustion, but Sabonis was a non-threat from outside, and also got stonewalled in the paint. Fox was the one who really responded to the task... but a 1 man show can't win it on his own. Barnes' just wasn't consistent enough during the series as a scorer.


Moving Forward:
I think you're right that we will most likely not reach the same level of 3pt shooting we saw this past season. I think this team has a lot of issues and I'm not really sure how we can fix them or where to even start. Any defensive improvements to our starting lineup will very likely lead to a less offensive-powered team. We've won the entire regular season off the backs of our offense, but can we still win teams on a more balanced roster? It would help the team a lot of Sabonis could shoot 3s.. but he's in his 7th year and showed no type of rhythm from deep. He doesn't even look to take the shot most of the time. To fix Fox and Sabonis, I think this team needs a PF who can shoot 3s, rebound, and protect the rim.. but the list of candidates are unattainable. I think this team also needs a legitimate 2nd/3rd option scorer. Fox went cold during the 7th game, and the entire team wilted. In all of the regular season, our gameplay in the 4th quarter was to give the ball to Fox and ask him to work magic... but what if magic doesn't work? I think we've need a guy who can help alleviate some of that shot-creating. We can't really solve all the problems, but Monte will just have to pick and choose which ones he'd like to address first. There was always going to be short-comings with the Fox-Sabonis duo, but for a team who just went to the playoffs for the first time in 17 years, I think you just have to keep rolling with it. I'm also not getting concerned about Sabonis unless he repeats this type of playoff performance again next year.

 

[sactowndog]

Reading through all these comments and it seems to me we are kind of right back at the same question with Domas. You have an immensely talented and and hard nosed player, with some specific limitations in his game…. Or maybe more specifically limitations based on his physical attributes. I think it’s a bit silly to point at domas’ rebounding as a ‘problem’, but comes back to the same question of who do you pair him up with on the front line to best cover his weak spots while allowing him to continue to thrive as he did all season. It seems like it’s been declared that he can’t play the 4 or he can’t play with a traditional big man, but a lot of that seems to be based on his specific experience with Miles Turner. That could all very well be true but I personally didn’t watch enough pacers games to declare that the gospel.

I feel like Monte and coach brown are going to be thinking a fair amount about other ways he can be utilized both on offense and defense and I wouldn’t be surprised if the identity and balance of this team pivots a bit to give us more flexibility in how domas can be used and paired with. The ‘pair domas with shooters’ philosophy may have just simply been easier to accomplish last offseason, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are grander visions at play. I also wouldn’t be surprised if our offense never reaches the same height as it did last year as we move towards a more balanced roster and game plan.

I personally feel like some of the broad conclusions by the national media that you just can’t win with domas as your focal point are just ridiculous. You’ve got people like Kevin O’Connor saying this, but at the same time saying he voted domas to 3rd team all nba. I’m sorry, but if you are good enough to be on an all nba team, you aren’t the ‘problem’. The team just needs to figure out how to get the pieces to work around him. For some players, roster construction is more challenging, but they have got to keep evolving.

Kevin echo’s what NBA people tell him. More than a couple NBA people feel what Kevin wrote. If Domas can shoot better I think a lot of the concerns go away. Luka has significantly more defensive limitations and few bring that up.

 

[sactowndog]

You hit the nail with this one.

Having Fox-Domas as your two best players are always going to cause issues because they both struggle to shoot the 3 ball AND defend. I want to talk about both of them together because their limitations go hand in hand when it comes to roster construction and style of play.

Regular season issues:

Focusing on the just the offense, their lack of shooting means that we need floor spacers around them. Everyone in the starting lineup has to be at minimum, a good shooter. Both players are ball dominant and play best with the ball in their hands whether it means facilitating or scoring. This means that everyone around them should be able to move without the ball. Monte did a great job last offseason surrounding Fox and Sabonis with both of the above, and we ended up with the best offense in the NBA this year: Prolific 3pt shooting, prolific scoring, great movement, good passing, etc. Barnes was a solid 3rd option because he can consistently create his own shot and score in isolation. The offense was not a problem for us.

Focusing on the defense, we have major issues on this end because of both Fox and Sabonis. Fox struggles to contain the point of attack while Sabonis struggles to protect the rim. It's a recipe for disaster that leads to a chain reaction of bad defense. Fox's man blows by him > Sabonis' lack of length struggles to alter shots > Kevin sinks down to help > Barnes rotates over to cover > Someone doesn't rotate to Barnes' man > wide open 3. Repeat re-rinse for the regular season. In general, poor defensive PG play is not unexpected and is easier to cover, however, poor interior defense is more uncommon and harder to cover. This means we need a legitimate interior defender because if they get pass Fox or Huerter, they'll still be met with force/length down low. But we've already decided that Sabonis at the 4 didn't entirely work to the best in Indiana. Sabonis is also not the most lateral player and struggles to contain the perimeter. The Kings avoided switching Sabonis as much as they could this year. Defense was a problem all-year long and it's how we let team stay with us.

Playoff Issues:
The Kings' entire "woes" in the playoffs were much different than our regular season struggles. It flip-flopped, and our offense became the problem, while our defense was solid. This was a very matchup dependent struggle. A large part was due to the Warriors being a 3pt reliant team who facilitated off of Draymond and Looney. They don't have consistent down-hill attackers, which didn't lead to a lot of open 3s unless it came off screening action and DHOs. What actually killed us on defense was our lack of rebounding. Not enough boxing out, not enough high-pointing rebounds, and just not enough effort. This created a lot of second chance opportunities for the Warriors. On offense, our 3pt shooting completely went cold for reasons unknown (maybe the moment was too big for Huerter). When our 3pt shooters aren't making their shots, it forces Sabonis, Fox, and Barnes to create their own offense. Sabonis struggled badly against Looney and Draymond. I don't want to break this down into exhaustion, but Sabonis was a non-threat from outside, and also got stonewalled in the paint. Fox was the one who really responded to the task... but a 1 man show can't win it on his own. Barnes' just wasn't consistent enough during the series as a scorer.


Moving Forward:
I think you're right that we will most likely not reach the same level of 3pt shooting we saw this past season. I think this team has a lot of issues and I'm not really sure how we can fix them or where to even start. Any defensive improvements to our starting lineup will very likely lead to a less offensive-powered team. We've won the entire regular season off the backs of our offense, but can we still win teams on a more balanced roster? It would help the team a lot of Sabonis could shoot 3s.. but he's in his 7th year and showed no type of rhythm from deep. He doesn't even look to take the shot most of the time. To fix Fox and Sabonis, I think this team needs a PF who can shoot 3s, rebound, and protect the rim.. but the list of candidates are unattainable. I think this team also needs a legitimate 2nd/3rd option scorer. Fox went cold during the 7th game, and the entire team wilted. In all of the regular season, our gameplay in the 4th quarter was to give the ball to Fox and ask him to work magic... but what if magic doesn't work? I think we've need a guy who can help alleviate some of that shot-creating. We can't really solve all the problems, but Monte will just have to pick and choose which ones he'd like to address first. There was always going to be short-comings with the Fox-Sabonis duo, but for a team who just went to the playoffs for the first time in 17 years, I think you just have to keep rolling with it. I'm also not getting concerned about Sabonis unless he repeats this type of playoff performance again next year.

Fox has the physical tools to be a great defender. Domas does not.

 

[Stan.Helsing]

What would be a package that we can offer that would be similar to the one that returned Melton?

Why are you being so insistent on a reply? I have said it is for the FO's to decide. Do you think the Kings do not have a package they can offer to get Herb Jones? You and me talking about it here could be pointless, especially if you believe the Kings do not.

 

[Stan.Helsing]

I don't have a problem if it was simply not kneeling but I thought there was more to it. Like on par with Kyrie levels of consistent foot in mouth disease.

I was more disappointed players didn't follow through with their announced plans for a work stoppage than keeping score on who does/doesn't do performative gestures.

Think I have seen some folks (could just be some online trolls) call him a nutjob on other sites/platforms for being religious and preaching at the church he and his family belong to... which is a pathetic thing for them to do. I had read up about this when I saw those sorts of things being posted over the last 2-3 years. Everything I could find seemed to point in the direction of him being a sensible and thinking young man who is well liked and respected by his organization and teammates. There are no character issues, none whatsoever. The issue is his ability to stay injury free. He could be the perfect pairing with Sabonis if he can stay healthy and is able to play like he could before.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I deleted all the Jonathan Isaac stuff related to his political/religious views. You don't get to use them as a proxy to bring that sort of argument here.

 

[Stan.Helsing]

I deleted all the Jonathan Isaac stuff related to his political/religious views. You don't get to use them as a proxy to bring that sort of argument here.

I did not see or not know what was posted earlier, but I like the meaning in your message so you get a +1!

 

[Stan.Helsing]

Moving Forward:
I think you're right that we will most likely not reach the same level of 3pt shooting we saw this past season. I think this team has a lot of issues and I'm not really sure how we can fix them or where to even start. Any defensive improvements to our starting lineup will very likely lead to a less offensive-powered team. We've won the entire regular season off the backs of our offense, but can we still win teams on a more balanced roster? It would help the team a lot of Sabonis could shoot 3s.. but he's in his 7th year and showed no type of rhythm from deep. He doesn't even look to take the shot most of the time. To fix Fox and Sabonis, I think this team needs a PF who can shoot 3s, rebound, and protect the rim.. but the list of candidates are unattainable. I think this team also needs a legitimate 2nd/3rd option scorer. Fox went cold during the 7th game, and the entire team wilted. In all of the regular season, our gameplay in the 4th quarter was to give the ball to Fox and ask him to work magic... but what if magic doesn't work? I think we've need a guy who can help alleviate some of that shot-creating. We can't really solve all the problems, but Monte will just have to pick and choose which ones he'd like to address first. There was always going to be short-comings with the Fox-Sabonis duo, but for a team who just went to the playoffs for the first time in 17 years, I think you just have to keep rolling with it. I'm also not getting concerned about Sabonis unless he repeats this type of playoff performance again next year.

I fully agree with everything you have said here, especially your three main points, i.e.,:

1) Any defensive improvements to our starting lineup will very likely lead to a less offensive-powered team.
2) To fix Fox and Sabonis, I think this team needs a PF who can shoot 3s, rebound, and protect the rim. (Good luck finding one of those for cheap).
3) We can't really solve all the problems, but Monte will just have to pick and choose which ones he'd like to address first.

Finding the type of PF you mention would be ideal. It is easier said than done though... but there is more than one way to skin a cat! So, it is what I'm hoping to see addressed, to some extent, by adding Cam Johnson and Herbert Jones to the roster. Keep the three-point shooting and spacing high through Cam... while adding some elements of the defense that your hypothetical PF would add through Herbert, who is also a decent enough three-point shooter for a lengthy defensive option.

Fox, Herbert, Murray, Cam and Sabonis is my preferred lineup... with Monk or Huerter replacing Murray or Cam when more shot-creation is needed.

It will need a lot to go right in order to add those 2 players though. The Nets will need to not match the Kings' offer on Cam, another team will need to not offer more, and the FO must make an offer to the Pelicans that the latter is willing to accept for Herb. Still, if it works, the FO will not be giving up picks to get Cam and that is a positive. Even if it does not work out, Cam and Herb could easily be traded since they have skillsets that other teams desire.