LPKingsFan
All-Star
Been entertaining the same deal in my head. Would try to get one of Phoenix's late firsts, too, but the framework is intriguing.
Vlade
- Thread starter Glenn
- Start date
Been entertaining the same deal in my head. Would try to get one of Phoenix's late firsts, too, but the framework is intriguing.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
As of yesterday in this thread (where were you?) it seemed like a consensus.
ParniValjak
All-Star
I think if people keep repeating it, they all of a sudden think its a consensus.
I am not certain what the front office will do but I suspect they will probably look to bring Rondo back at a reasonable deal and look to improve the rest of the roster with other moves. If you have a strong SG defender next to Rondo and twin towers of Cousins and WCS defending the paint, in certain schemes, you can "hide" bad defenders.
We know that Cousins wants Rondo back. Rondo indicated that he might be open to coming back. What we don't know is what Vlade wants to do and what the new coach would want.
I won't speak for anybody else (though I suspect many have the same concerns as me), but the problem isn't the passing. I like the passing a lot. The problem isn't the shooting - the shooting got better this year. The problem is the atrocious defense.
I'm not saying either yea or nay on keeping Rondo - I think the price and other transactions we make this summer need to be factored in before the answer to that becomes obvious. But as someone whose mantra this year was that the offense was fine and the defense needed major improvement, I'm kind of surprised to see you stumping so hard for an all-O/zero-D player.
How is it that Cousins is regarded as having such a high BBALL IQ, but yet no one bats an eye when he wants the worst defensive point guard to return to the worst defensive team.
Re-signing Rondo falls in line with ideology of previous regimes that focused on only one side of the ball. Others have posted Rondo's ON/OFF ratings that dispelled that notion that the offense was much better with him on the floor.
Re-signing Rondo falls in line with ideology of previous regimes that focused on only one side of the ball. Others have posted Rondo's ON/OFF ratings that dispelled that notion that the offense was much better with him on the floor.
ParniValjak
All-Star
People brag on about Rondo's defense.
Guys, good defensive schemes hide some atrocious defenders. What we had this season with Karl is nowhere near a good defensive scheme. With DMC and WCS defending the paint and KK off the bench, there is enough there for a solid defensive scheme. Get a good 3 and D guy at SG and your defense in a good defensive scheme is a heck of a lot better even with Rondo on the team.
You get a coach who stresses D and Rondo will be a lot better defender than he showed this season. Its about defending as a team and covering for one another. We did not have that system in place. Constant switching and giving up mismatches easily has been all we have done defensively this season. you can't judge players based on that.
Guys, good defensive schemes hide some atrocious defenders. What we had this season with Karl is nowhere near a good defensive scheme. With DMC and WCS defending the paint and KK off the bench, there is enough there for a solid defensive scheme. Get a good 3 and D guy at SG and your defense in a good defensive scheme is a heck of a lot better even with Rondo on the team.
You get a coach who stresses D and Rondo will be a lot better defender than he showed this season. Its about defending as a team and covering for one another. We did not have that system in place. Constant switching and giving up mismatches easily has been all we have done defensively this season. you can't judge players based on that.
Well, here's Rondo's tenure on Brad Stevens' team:
--------------poss---ORtg---DRtg
w/Rondo---3353---104.3---110 (but they did have 25.5 assists per 100 possessions same as Kings with him, yay!)
w/o Rondo-3773---104.5---108
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There seems to be consensus not to keep Rondo at all costs.
Here to help break down the myth that consensus is to let Rondo go... I am not for it unless too expensive.
twslam07
All-Star
This whole "he's Cousins' PG" argument is just odd to me. I'm sure there are plenty of PGs in the league that would be "Cousins' PG" or that he would become good friends with. Cousins doesn't seem to have any issues with Collison and I'm sure he was happy about the hot start they had under Malone when Collison was the starting PG. I don't see the issue with letting Rondo walk.
We (and when I say we I'm including you) have mentioned in the search for a coach that we need someone who can be straightforward with Cousins. We need someone who won't say one thing and do the opposite. Vlade should be taking the exact same approach this season. If Vlade decides it's the best choice to move on from Rondo, then he should sit Cousins down and be upfront with him about his plans to move on from Rondo. Let Cousins have a voice and stick-up/argue for his pal. The conversation can even get a little heated (as Cousins mentioned in his interview that conversations with Butler/Rondo would not always be civil but he knew they were all working towards the same end goal...winning). This way, you're not going behind his back, you're showing loyalty by discussing the decision with him first, and you're being straight forward with him about how Vlade thinks he can make this team as successful as possible.
Do you really think if we handle it that way Cousins will be upset and give minimal effort in the upcoming season? If that's the case, then I think you do trade him. His job is not to decide the personnel. Again, I think it makes sense to keep the lines of communication open so he never feels "blind sided" or "betrayed," but I find it very difficult that Cousins would get upset/quit on the franchise just because Rondo isn't brought back.
So can we please put this "He's Cousins' PG! He's Cousins' friend!" argument to rest? How about we discuss Rondo's performance as a reason to resign him rather than him being Cousins' pal.
As for the passing, yeah, his assists are great, but if that's your only argument, I'm finding it hard to take this stance seriously. On/Off numbers show pretty clearly his impact, and as some have already pointed out, the offense has been just as good if not better with him off the floor (here and in his later Boston years). His defense was the difference maker. That coupled with his play-making helped him contribute to wins. If he doesn't return to form on the defensive end, I don't think he's worth what he'll cost.
King Baller
All-Star
Well watching the Spurs and Warriors make their opponents look like the Three Stooges has only fortified the need for solid wing defenders in my mind. Lets see how the Coaching search and the draft goes. Things will be much more clear after the draft IMO. The one thing I want the Kings to improve on is the Defense. This past season has shown the Kings cannot out score the opponent if they cannot get stops. Defense is the similar theme with all the Playoff teams.
Last summer Vlade went after Matthews and Mbah a Moute. Those two would have changed the Kings results this past season. So Vlade knows better defensive players are needed and I expect he will make a run for that type of player again.
Better defense could change everything for the Kings.
Last summer Vlade went after Matthews and Mbah a Moute. Those two would have changed the Kings results this past season. So Vlade knows better defensive players are needed and I expect he will make a run for that type of player again.
Better defense could change everything for the Kings.
Thank you.
Maybe because DMC - who is actually out there on the court playing the game - realizes the real worth of Rondo, over and above defense.
Sac.Kings
All-Star
I've never been a fan of players selecting their teammates, or coaches (which seems to be the new fad for high profile players). It's not their job and most of the time it leads to issues (not to mention most players don't have the background or understanding to do this). The Cavs cater to Lebron as if he were "the man upstairs" himself. What did it get them with his first run with them? He left them after failing to win the championship. Now he even gets to pick his own coaches!
At some point, management has to stand up for itself and say "We value your opinion and we will take it into consideration, but the decision is ours to make."
Glenn
Hall of Famer
If Rondo could play defense, I might like him. He can't. I don't want Collison and Rondo on the same team and the money saved by not signing Rondo could give us a three pt shooter. Those people are valuable in the modern NBA also. People can continue to be mindboggled by those of us who don't want Rondo but I, in particular, have learned how important defense is.
gunks
Hall of Famer
I'm on the "re-sign him if he isn't asking for a lot"bandwagon.
Rondo is getting on in years. And while I've never been one to bandy about the term "empty stats", I do think that the impact from his amazing passing/great rebounding abilities are diminished by his abysmal defense and spotty-at-best shooting. We also still have DC, who was beyond solid at the point running with Cuz and Gay in the lost Malone season.
I wouldn't mind seeing Rondo on this team with a legit coach and a legit SG. Hell, he might even start giving a **** about defense again if he was told to by a coach who actually gave a **** about defense.
I suppose I just don't see Rondo as high priority, and I don't think he should get paid like one either. He has a lot of warts to his game. But if he is willing to come back on a team friendly deal, I'm all for it. When his passing game is on ("on" being 15+ dimes, 10 is pedestrian to the guy) it is fun as hell to watch.
It is going to be an interesting off-season, that's for sure. I still like what Vlade did last year. Can't wait to see what he does this summer. All starts with that coaching hire.
Rondo is getting on in years. And while I've never been one to bandy about the term "empty stats", I do think that the impact from his amazing passing/great rebounding abilities are diminished by his abysmal defense and spotty-at-best shooting. We also still have DC, who was beyond solid at the point running with Cuz and Gay in the lost Malone season.
I wouldn't mind seeing Rondo on this team with a legit coach and a legit SG. Hell, he might even start giving a **** about defense again if he was told to by a coach who actually gave a **** about defense.
I suppose I just don't see Rondo as high priority, and I don't think he should get paid like one either. He has a lot of warts to his game. But if he is willing to come back on a team friendly deal, I'm all for it. When his passing game is on ("on" being 15+ dimes, 10 is pedestrian to the guy) it is fun as hell to watch.
It is going to be an interesting off-season, that's for sure. I still like what Vlade did last year. Can't wait to see what he does this summer. All starts with that coaching hire.
EIM86
Starter
Vlade is the guy. We got a really good assistant GM which is a nice step forward. Hes picking the right coach by interviewing basically all that is available. Will he get his 1st choice? Prolly not because nobody wants to coach us right now but I trust he will find somebody to move us into the right direction
I said nothing about DMC selecting his own teammates. What I said was if DMC values Rondo, perhaps it's because he is more familiar with what he brings to the game than those of us who judge by sitting with a remote control in one hand and our favorite beverage in the other.
The stats don't lie. Rondo is a net negative.
We'll agree that we disagree.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I wonder where this mantra that offense puts butts in seats and defense wins championships went? I think Rondo is one of the most athletically talanted PGs in the NBA but that huge hole in his defense is a problem. If the story is now revolving to a story that Cousins wants him, we have something else. I don't know the analytics but it seemed like Rondo loved passing to Cuz. Why shouldn't he like him.
I trust Vlade and although I think having Rondo and Collison (yes he can be traded) is a huge mistake as Collison is really too short to be be a SG but way to good a shooter to sit on a bench, and that needs sorting. Honestly it's a nice problem to have, Now if someone would explain Rondo's two escapades on the sidelines which were totally bat guano, I'll be happy for the next minute. Make it three minutes if his bigotry is explained.
I trust Vlade and although I think having Rondo and Collison (yes he can be traded) is a huge mistake as Collison is really too short to be be a SG but way to good a shooter to sit on a bench, and that needs sorting. Honestly it's a nice problem to have, Now if someone would explain Rondo's two escapades on the sidelines which were totally bat guano, I'll be happy for the next minute. Make it three minutes if his bigotry is explained.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
In this case, I honestly would like to see the stats again. I think Rondo is a wonderful athlete but if the flash that he brings and the great passes he brings are not reflected well in the stats, there is room to think Collison could be the starter on a Rondo less team. BTW, I'd like to see Collison's matching stats. Anybody up for it?
The things with Rondo is that unlike say, Belinelli, it didn't seem like he was physically incapable of playing good defense. He'll never get back all of his pre-injury quickness but he seemed about as fast/quick as I've seen him in years. But he just didn't seem to care about playing hard on the defensive end.
Some think with a new coach/scheme that Rondo will get back to being a good defender or at least stop being a completely awful one. But Brad Stevens has a very good defensive scheme and pushes his team to compete hard on that end and he got no improvement from Rondo. To me I think it's far less likely that a new coach gets Rondo back to competing defensively than it is a fat, likely final contract convinces him that there's no reason he has to D up.
The Rondo/Gay/Cousins trio led the Kings to 33 games and didn't fit well doing it with Rudy often looking like the odd man out, either because of Rondo's style, the offensive scheme or both. Whatever it is, I definitely don't want to see this experiment continue for another season.
For that matter I hope Gay is moved this offseason regardless. He doesn't fit next to Cousins and in the event Vlade blows things up and rebuilds, Rudy isn't a rebuilding piece either. I think he just needs to be moved.
With Rondo I lean towards not wanting him back but I really think the thinking depends on who is hired as the coach. As I said in another thread, if say McHale is the coach I could see Rondo being re-signed. but if say, Blatt is hired then I think you have to let Rondo walk.
Some think with a new coach/scheme that Rondo will get back to being a good defender or at least stop being a completely awful one. But Brad Stevens has a very good defensive scheme and pushes his team to compete hard on that end and he got no improvement from Rondo. To me I think it's far less likely that a new coach gets Rondo back to competing defensively than it is a fat, likely final contract convinces him that there's no reason he has to D up.
The Rondo/Gay/Cousins trio led the Kings to 33 games and didn't fit well doing it with Rudy often looking like the odd man out, either because of Rondo's style, the offensive scheme or both. Whatever it is, I definitely don't want to see this experiment continue for another season.
For that matter I hope Gay is moved this offseason regardless. He doesn't fit next to Cousins and in the event Vlade blows things up and rebuilds, Rudy isn't a rebuilding piece either. I think he just needs to be moved.
With Rondo I lean towards not wanting him back but I really think the thinking depends on who is hired as the coach. As I said in another thread, if say McHale is the coach I could see Rondo being re-signed. but if say, Blatt is hired then I think you have to let Rondo walk.
I couldn't possibly care less about the stats in this instance.
I know what I see with my own eyes when Rondo is on the court. He has the most incredible court vision I think I've seen since possibly John Stockton. And I think the Rondo-Cousins tandem can, with the right coach, be every bit as successful as Stockton-Malone...and more so.
Rondo has a lot to give and a lot to teach younger PGs, a lot of whom don't understand that it's not always about taking the shot.
Those are just a couple reasons why I value Rajon Rondo. He's also got the jewelry and having a veteran presence on your team who knows what it's like to win it all isn't a bad thing when that's the direction you're hoping and building to get to.
I understand people not liking his defense, but Mike Bibby wasn't a defensive juggernaut either. It was Doug Christie who helped cover up his shortcomings. That's what we truly need - another Doug Christie.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Sheeeee - it, you made that look easy. I used to be a math whiz kid but as I have aged, I seem to have lost it. My entire family is good at math, even my daughter. One thing, no two things, jump out at me and it is what my eye test thought they were seeing. Collison can shoot. Collison can shoot for those who didn't see it first time around. I am going to guess that he is one of the best shooters in the league like top 20 or so. Also though, discounting free throws, Rondo can shoot pretty good also. I found myself in some games yelling for him to shoot the rock. I think he didn't because he was playing for a last big contract and by leading the league in assists, he pretty much guaranteed a big one. In my view, he could have scored more, making him more dangerous, but his assists would have gone down costing him money.
My sum guess is that a Rondo not playing for a contract would have been more valuable to the team.
Now where in those mystical letters are numbers that reflect defense. I am not too old to learn - - - - I think.
Thanks, dude.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
There are people who think Cousins is poison to all coaches yet that is not true. I get your point though as Rondo had a few melt downs that were inexplicable to me and take my word for it, if they are inexplicable to me, they are inexplicable to most. Boogie I understand.
That begs the question ... If Rondo was just playing for a contract, wouldn't he have done more on defense? I understand all the criticisms about him, but I honestly think at this point in his life he just wants to play the game he loves with guys he likes. He's already got the ring and he's not exactly poor. My read on him at times was frustration over George Karl, frustration over guys like Marco Bellinelli getting major minutes while WCS rotted on the bench, etc.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I understand what you are saying 100%. I agree. Perhaps there are 1 or 2 PGs who can do what Rondo can do but he is miraculous. He has incredibly long arms and huge hands which joined to his court vision make him something special. I also recall some stats that kind of jerked me up short in my fan boyism.I couldn't possibly care less about the stats in this instance.
I know what I see with my own eyes when Rondo is on the court. He has the most incredible court vision I think I've seen since possibly John Stockton. And I think the Rondo-Cousins tandem can, with the right coach, be every bit as successful as Stockton-Malone...and more so.
Rondo has a lot to give and a lot to teach younger PGs, a lot of whom don't understand that it's not always about taking the shot.
Those are just a couple reasons why I value Rajon Rondo. He's also got the jewelry and having a veteran presence on your team who knows what it's like to win it all isn't a bad thing when that's the direction you're hoping and building to get to.
I understand people not liking his defense, but Mike Bibby wasn't a defensive juggernaut either. It was Doug Christie who helped cover up his shortcomings. That's what we truly need - another Doug Christie.
In my view, either he or Collison has to go. Does Collison's shooting and defense make up for what Rondo has. Can that $8-10 million difference in salary be better used by signing, let's say, Ryan Anderson?
This may be of little import but he had two sideline adventures that were inexplicably odd. His tirade at a gay official perhaps can be ignored. I am uneasy about what goes on in his head because I don't get it.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I understand. That's why we have Vlade who sees all and knows all.
As there are no defensive stats that people take seriously in FOs, I think offense trumps defense especially when it comes time to negotiate a contract.It also makes me wonder if once he has his contract, he will not focus on assists so much and be more of a team player. That's either a Catch-22 or Catch-11. I know people will say what is wrong with assists. I think it was clear that at times he had a decent shot and threw the ball away with the hopes it would lead to an assist. He had quite a few TOs. I am working on my gut here but there have been plays that bothered me a lot.
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randymoss1881
Starter
My top 3 coaches Blatt and Messani oth preach ball movement. That ain't gonna work with Rondo.
