Vlade as GM (split)
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Yeah thats what I said: trade itself was good and the picks were bad. Of course there could have been a better pick than Papa G dont you agree? Juan Hernangomez was someone I liked and he would probably start for us currently. Bad draft overall but Papa G was the worst pick of that draft. But as I said, since Chriss looks like a bust we still won that trade
The thing about the Cousins trade is that other teams did not want him at the time. While the Big Man was a great player he was also a great complainer and had the perception of being a bully.
Vivek did not want to trade Cousins. Which handcuffed Vlade to some degree. Then Cousins agent went into full A hole mode when he realized the golden goose max contract was evaporating.
The Kings also ended up with Fox from this trade. It was a direct result so it needs to be included.
Vivek did not want to trade Cousins. Which handcuffed Vlade to some degree. Then Cousins agent went into full A hole mode when he realized the golden goose max contract was evaporating.
The Kings also ended up with Fox from this trade. It was a direct result so it needs to be included.
As far as the Philly trade I have argued it was not as bad as people make it out to be. It was not good but worst of all time? I don't think so.
Thus far what was the actual cost to the Kings from that deal?
Now if Ainge drafts the next Kobe Bryant with the Kings 2019 pick I agree with you.
Thus far what was the actual cost to the Kings from that deal?
Now if Ainge drafts the next Kobe Bryant with the Kings 2019 pick I agree with you.
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Judging Fox and Jackson is certainly premature IMO. Giles is a complete unknown.
Certainly this #2 pick has a lot riding on it.
How Willie and Skal play this season is huge.
Summing up I understand the negative judgements on Vlade as GM. IMO it is overstated and premature.
Taking what could be argued was the worst team in the NBA over. No Playoffs in over a decade. Old Coach screaming at clouds and alienating the dysfunctional Star Player. Star Player regularly yells at everyone and exhibits bad body language often.
Folks this job of GMing the Kings was not an easy undertaking.
I suspect few could do better. Chris Mullin and his sidekick PDA certainly did not.
In my estimation Vlade has done a fair job. Team is full of young prospects. Bogdan, Buddy and Fox show promise. There are 3 young Bigs who have some hope. Vets are pretty fair. No really bad contracts. Vlade has been lucky in the lottery so the #2 pick is right there. Overall he gets a C+ from me.
As an aside I would have liked Geoff Petrie to stay on as GM. It would have been interesting to see what he could have done.
Certainly this #2 pick has a lot riding on it.
How Willie and Skal play this season is huge.
Summing up I understand the negative judgements on Vlade as GM. IMO it is overstated and premature.
Taking what could be argued was the worst team in the NBA over. No Playoffs in over a decade. Old Coach screaming at clouds and alienating the dysfunctional Star Player. Star Player regularly yells at everyone and exhibits bad body language often.
Folks this job of GMing the Kings was not an easy undertaking.
I suspect few could do better. Chris Mullin and his sidekick PDA certainly did not.
In my estimation Vlade has done a fair job. Team is full of young prospects. Bogdan, Buddy and Fox show promise. There are 3 young Bigs who have some hope. Vets are pretty fair. No really bad contracts. Vlade has been lucky in the lottery so the #2 pick is right there. Overall he gets a C+ from me.
As an aside I would have liked Geoff Petrie to stay on as GM. It would have been interesting to see what he could have done.
I’m weary of reading posts by those who are obsessed with Vlade being the worst GM ever! You guys really lack perspective.
First, and for the record, i’m not a Vlade apologist. I think he has made his share of mistakes. For me, the big ones were getting fleeced of the 2019 1st round pick in a flawed attempt to get Cousins into the playoffs. Second was the bumbling way he handled the Cousins trade. But I don’t hold these mistakes against him as long as he learns from them (i.e. doesn’t repeat them). NBA GMs and Presidents are hired to make big decisions. Only the village idiot would expect all their decisions to be perfect in hindsight. That’s just not grounded in reality. And to continue obsessing about his past mistakes (or perceived mistakes) is like picking at a scab. Nothing good will come from it.
First, and for the record, i’m not a Vlade apologist. I think he has made his share of mistakes. For me, the big ones were getting fleeced of the 2019 1st round pick in a flawed attempt to get Cousins into the playoffs. Second was the bumbling way he handled the Cousins trade. But I don’t hold these mistakes against him as long as he learns from them (i.e. doesn’t repeat them). NBA GMs and Presidents are hired to make big decisions. Only the village idiot would expect all their decisions to be perfect in hindsight. That’s just not grounded in reality. And to continue obsessing about his past mistakes (or perceived mistakes) is like picking at a scab. Nothing good will come from it.
It most definetly is one of the dumbest trades in the century. The cost have been having the 5th pick last draft instead of the 3rd and not having our pick next year which is truly a horrible thing for a rebuilding team.
You never do that type of trade unless you are a contender or if that trade will put you in that top 4 in the conference. It doesnt matter who Ainge drafts next year.
If the idea was to become a playoff team by getting cap space and signing Rondo, it didnt work. It was also a huge miscalculation of the strenght of the team. We ended up not being close to playoffs and year later being in a total rebuild. Also that idea itself was just stupid. Mortaging our future just to have a chance of competing for a playoff spot. You can argue some things about Vlade but that trade was really just terrible. The idea behind the trade was stupid and it also turned out to be bad.
Well then how you should evaluate the drafting if not by how it really turned out? I agree that its not the right way to pick the best late 1st round pick and say "why didnt Vlade get him" but seeing the rookies play for one year you can evaluate that particular rookie we drafted.
Its too early to give a final judgement but you can evaluate them a bit. For example Jackson, we saw that he is not really big and he doesnt have the lateral quickness to be an elite defender. Shooting he can improve but an educated guess for him would be that he probably will never be a great individual defender and since hes not going to be the type to create for himself and others at high rate, it caps his ceiling a bit. Giles being an unknown I agree with. With Fox its pretty much wether he developes a 3 point shot. Hes probably not big and strong enough to bruise through defenders giving him space and finish at the rim with a lot of contact. Anything can happen but you can make these type of educated guesses after seeing them play for one year.
Hopefully by year 4 Willy can play with four shooters around him and actually show wether he can be a valuable piece moving forward. Or hopefully Vlade fires the coach who insist on playing with an outdated system.
As you said, he took over one of the worst teams of the Nba. And as I said, when you do that, you are supposed to acquire assets to boost the rebuild. A good gm maximizes the amount of assets diring a rebuild. Vlade didnt do that at all. Cap space is an asset and he didnt utilize it in the way of getting assets. Thats a huge mistake.
Yeah as I said, rebuilding isnt that simple. Its not just tanking and drafting. A lot of it is acquiring as much assets as you can and line yourself up to be succesful in few years. Thats why I wanted an experienced gm.
You never do that type of trade unless you are a contender or if that trade will put you in that top 4 in the conference. It doesnt matter who Ainge drafts next year.
If the idea was to become a playoff team by getting cap space and signing Rondo, it didnt work. It was also a huge miscalculation of the strenght of the team. We ended up not being close to playoffs and year later being in a total rebuild. Also that idea itself was just stupid. Mortaging our future just to have a chance of competing for a playoff spot. You can argue some things about Vlade but that trade was really just terrible. The idea behind the trade was stupid and it also turned out to be bad.
Well then how you should evaluate the drafting if not by how it really turned out? I agree that its not the right way to pick the best late 1st round pick and say "why didnt Vlade get him" but seeing the rookies play for one year you can evaluate that particular rookie we drafted.
Its too early to give a final judgement but you can evaluate them a bit. For example Jackson, we saw that he is not really big and he doesnt have the lateral quickness to be an elite defender. Shooting he can improve but an educated guess for him would be that he probably will never be a great individual defender and since hes not going to be the type to create for himself and others at high rate, it caps his ceiling a bit. Giles being an unknown I agree with. With Fox its pretty much wether he developes a 3 point shot. Hes probably not big and strong enough to bruise through defenders giving him space and finish at the rim with a lot of contact. Anything can happen but you can make these type of educated guesses after seeing them play for one year.
Hopefully by year 4 Willy can play with four shooters around him and actually show wether he can be a valuable piece moving forward. Or hopefully Vlade fires the coach who insist on playing with an outdated system.
As you said, he took over one of the worst teams of the Nba. And as I said, when you do that, you are supposed to acquire assets to boost the rebuild. A good gm maximizes the amount of assets diring a rebuild. Vlade didnt do that at all. Cap space is an asset and he didnt utilize it in the way of getting assets. Thats a huge mistake.
Yeah as I said, rebuilding isnt that simple. Its not just tanking and drafting. A lot of it is acquiring as much assets as you can and line yourself up to be succesful in few years. Thats why I wanted an experienced gm.
The critisism of Vlade most definetly is not just nitpicking some single mistakes. At least to me its mostly about the big picture. He took over, mortaged our future by that sixers trade, year later made the call that we should rebuild but handled it very poorly: Didnt acquire assets, for some reason used a lot of cap space on useless veterans and because of that we have basically 36million of dead salary at the moment. Last year if we took 36million for 2 years worth of cap, we would have more assets. Now we just have Zbo and Shumpert (hopefully) at the end of the bench.
To me its not about wether his draft picks hit or not. All of them were pretty reasonable picks at the time, except Papa G which was just horrible. Its about how he has handled things as a whole and to me he hasnt done that well at all
To me its not about wether his draft picks hit or not. All of them were pretty reasonable picks at the time, except Papa G which was just horrible. Its about how he has handled things as a whole and to me he hasnt done that well at all
in Europe he has huge respect from all players, so he can coach in a way he is doing.. but in NBA he is less known, and probably that could not work. one of the reasons he does not want to come in NBA..
but if he ever considers comming, it could be this situation. Young players and Euro guys, FO to be behind him and not a big market..
but Joerger is Kings coach, I just mentioned this as I thought it is interesting tought.
but if he ever considers comming, it could be this situation. Young players and Euro guys, FO to be behind him and not a big market..
but Joerger is Kings coach, I just mentioned this as I thought it is interesting tought.
I agree its about big picture and not judging individual moves. I am curious where do you think the Kings would be today if a more experienced GM took over 3 years ago instead of Vlade? How far along would they be? What is the level of talent and the amount of assets this GM would accumulate compared to Vlade?
Well this is just my opinion on what could've/should've happened. But first of all we would obviously have our '19 pick and we would've had the #3 pick last year.
More experienced gm probably could've got a bigger return for Cousins but its hard to guess what kind of offers could've been on the table.
One thing another Gm would've done is renting out our cap space. Nets got a 1st and a 2nd for taking Demarre Carroll, thats a deal I expect a better gm could've got. Even if you had to undercut that offer by taking only the 1st, it would've been a no brainer.
I also expect there would have been some other smaller one year salary dumps available for 2nd rounders and we would've taken those kind of deals.
We wouldnt have signed Zbo and GHill for sure. That means we would have extra 36million of cap space atm. Also I wouldnt expect Koufos being signed atm, he got a bit too long contract from Vlade.
While rebuilding we also should've been trying to find some diamonds in the rough. Keeping a couple spots open, trying out a lot of guys with unguaranteed contracts seeing if we could find someone on a cheap 2+1 type deal that could be valuable in the future.
There are reports of Denver trying to unload Faried. I would expect that an experienced Gm would be able to get that deal for Faried+#14 <-> maybe our future 2nd or something like Mason or JJ.
So in this hypothetical I would assume we still drafted the same players and got the same return from Cuz. Our situation would be currently:
Bogdan (thumbs up for Vlade for getting him)
Temple?
Fox
Wcs
Hield
JJ
Giles
Skal
Mason
Demarre Carrol
Faried
That is about 65-70 mill payroll
Our draft picks would be:
#2
#14
#29
#36
You get Doncic and a possibility to move up back up for someone like either Bridges or even more or you could hope that solid guy like Lonnie Walker or Kevin Knox is there @14. Then two other bites of the apple late 1st and early 2nd. Or this could put you in a position to get #4 and parsons from memphis for #14 and WCS or something like that.
On top of that there would be a lot of Cap space to rent again and easily a max slot for the next offseason. Also if Lebron decides to go to Lakers or Rockets we would be one of the few teams able to eat contracts like Deng or Ryan Anderson and therefore could demand a kings ransom. We would also own our pick next year so we wouldnt be in a rush to win 35 games. And on top of those thing you could have some extra 2nd rounders and possible diamonds in the rough
That was purely hypothetical and probably not too accurate. The point is that we probably wouldnt be any better at the moment but we could be positioned a lot better for the future. And in our position thats the most important thing. Our window of succes wasnt last year and isnt next year. That being the case we should move our recourses in way that they line up with our window of succes.
More experienced gm probably could've got a bigger return for Cousins but its hard to guess what kind of offers could've been on the table.
One thing another Gm would've done is renting out our cap space. Nets got a 1st and a 2nd for taking Demarre Carroll, thats a deal I expect a better gm could've got. Even if you had to undercut that offer by taking only the 1st, it would've been a no brainer.
I also expect there would have been some other smaller one year salary dumps available for 2nd rounders and we would've taken those kind of deals.
We wouldnt have signed Zbo and GHill for sure. That means we would have extra 36million of cap space atm. Also I wouldnt expect Koufos being signed atm, he got a bit too long contract from Vlade.
While rebuilding we also should've been trying to find some diamonds in the rough. Keeping a couple spots open, trying out a lot of guys with unguaranteed contracts seeing if we could find someone on a cheap 2+1 type deal that could be valuable in the future.
There are reports of Denver trying to unload Faried. I would expect that an experienced Gm would be able to get that deal for Faried+#14 <-> maybe our future 2nd or something like Mason or JJ.
So in this hypothetical I would assume we still drafted the same players and got the same return from Cuz. Our situation would be currently:
Bogdan (thumbs up for Vlade for getting him)
Temple?
Fox
Wcs
Hield
JJ
Giles
Skal
Mason
Demarre Carrol
Faried
That is about 65-70 mill payroll
Our draft picks would be:
#2
#14
#29
#36
You get Doncic and a possibility to move up back up for someone like either Bridges or even more or you could hope that solid guy like Lonnie Walker or Kevin Knox is there @14. Then two other bites of the apple late 1st and early 2nd. Or this could put you in a position to get #4 and parsons from memphis for #14 and WCS or something like that.
On top of that there would be a lot of Cap space to rent again and easily a max slot for the next offseason. Also if Lebron decides to go to Lakers or Rockets we would be one of the few teams able to eat contracts like Deng or Ryan Anderson and therefore could demand a kings ransom. We would also own our pick next year so we wouldnt be in a rush to win 35 games. And on top of those thing you could have some extra 2nd rounders and possible diamonds in the rough
That was purely hypothetical and probably not too accurate. The point is that we probably wouldnt be any better at the moment but we could be positioned a lot better for the future. And in our position thats the most important thing. Our window of succes wasnt last year and isnt next year. That being the case we should move our recourses in way that they line up with our window of succes.
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Well said. Also, The signing of George Hill denies a realistic view of the position we are in and how to get us out. Now we are stuck with Shumpert. The draft of Willie and Papa G are out of touch in the modern NBA. ZBO was really good years ago. Why would you bother signing him when if you are able to take on a bad contract along with another asset and realize the same 27 wins or thereabouts-a non playoff team.
You have Fox, Buddy, and Boggie...I'm afraid that's it. All the rest, are just hopes. And Boggie is a mature rookie player and at a comparable 19 like most NBA rookies, probably wouldn't have an impact on any team. Though this is not the reason for my retort.
I think that the Kings would have been better served by a different GM. I think we would be in a better position with Sam Hinkie or Danny Ferry as GM. Does anybody out there think we fleeced the 76ers in the trade involving Landry, Thompson, stauskus, swap and our first rounder for next year. Rather, I think that many think that the 6ers and Hinkie fleeced the Kings.
Please let me digress on this point a sec. I wonder what control Pete had over draft choices coming into a new situation 2 weeks before the draft and having an overbearing owner. I know that the Stauskus selection was heavily impacted by the owner's obvious desire to select Stauskus.
Today, I think that 2 people are making the Kings decisions really...Vlade and the owner.
I ran into a long time season ticket holder recently and he told me that Vlade was well-connected overseas and therefore really knew the talent. If I may, I wonder how someone who appears to be so well connected overseas could have over-looked such glaring weaknesses as Papa G had in the context of today's NBA game. What also surprised me that the year prior to the papa g selection, I don't remember Vlade missing a home game. Could it have been that he didn't really see Papa G in person before drafting him. Therefore, I'm suspect as to either Vlade's evaluation skills, his scouts, or notice of the modern NBA game.
Give you a fourth option, he relied too heavily on someone he knew overseas and didn't verify for himself. That if the case does not absolve him from the choice he made. Then again, knowing he was a project coupled with the rumblings that he was a jerk (I don't know if true or not!)may have cut short his patience with him.
In regard to dead salary at the moment, for 2-3 years Vlade/Catanella have made it a point to have contracts expire after this year coming up. They didnt go overboard on excessively bad contracts a few years back when almost every GM went nuts and handed out bad contracts to avg at best players (Solomon Hill for example). There have been some missteps but there have been some good decisions as well. Pray tell me what GM hasn't had any missteps.
It appears the Kings are in good position going forward in a rebuild (It's not finished) with young talent in the backcourt, a potential gem in Giles and other pieces that appear to be rotation pieces.
At this point, there are 2 defining moments for Vlade coming up....the draft pick and next years cap room and can he sign or trade for a higher level FA or player. These will be decisions on whether they continue with Vlade or replace him.
It appears the Kings are in good position going forward in a rebuild (It's not finished) with young talent in the backcourt, a potential gem in Giles and other pieces that appear to be rotation pieces.
At this point, there are 2 defining moments for Vlade coming up....the draft pick and next years cap room and can he sign or trade for a higher level FA or player. These will be decisions on whether they continue with Vlade or replace him.
First off I hated, HATED the Papagiannis pick.
But it's worth pointing out that Vlade saw him workout in person before the draft. Georgios had an open workout that a lot of NBA team attended. Also, Ainge was looking to take Papagiannis with the Celtics 16th pick. When he was off the board the Celtics took Yabusele.
Ainge (who is definitely a good GM) saw the same things Vlade did - huge frame but with room to cut fat and add muscle, decent quickness, solid shooting mechanics and range, nice skill set as a roll man and some possible rim protection.
Papa was a swing and a miss presumably (and from the little I've heard) because he wasnt committed to putting in the hard work.
Also, that was a terrible draft at the end of the lottery and down being pretty bare for the most part. I liked LeVert and he'd have been a better pick but I also like Baldwin and he was cut even earlier than Papa.
Obviously not a high point for Divac as GM but considering it as Skal and Bogdan plus a gamble on Papagiannis in exchange for Chriss and it's still a net positive.
Honestly I've never hated Kings draft selections more on draft night. Nobody had Papa as a first round pick (except DX who moved him to #22 I believe based on some intel about Ainge liking him), Malachi was just an inefficient chucker IMO and Skal just looked lost and soft at Kentucky.
I was least upset about Skal at #28 but I still was hoping for DeJounte Murray there.
But that's been one of Vlade's issue so far - good ideas/initial moves with bad follow through. Getting a 1st rounder for Bellinelli? Great move. Taking Richardson with that pick? Boo
Let's hope he gets this draft right.
But it's worth pointing out that Vlade saw him workout in person before the draft. Georgios had an open workout that a lot of NBA team attended. Also, Ainge was looking to take Papagiannis with the Celtics 16th pick. When he was off the board the Celtics took Yabusele.
Ainge (who is definitely a good GM) saw the same things Vlade did - huge frame but with room to cut fat and add muscle, decent quickness, solid shooting mechanics and range, nice skill set as a roll man and some possible rim protection.
Papa was a swing and a miss presumably (and from the little I've heard) because he wasnt committed to putting in the hard work.
Also, that was a terrible draft at the end of the lottery and down being pretty bare for the most part. I liked LeVert and he'd have been a better pick but I also like Baldwin and he was cut even earlier than Papa.
Obviously not a high point for Divac as GM but considering it as Skal and Bogdan plus a gamble on Papagiannis in exchange for Chriss and it's still a net positive.
Honestly I've never hated Kings draft selections more on draft night. Nobody had Papa as a first round pick (except DX who moved him to #22 I believe based on some intel about Ainge liking him), Malachi was just an inefficient chucker IMO and Skal just looked lost and soft at Kentucky.
I was least upset about Skal at #28 but I still was hoping for DeJounte Murray there.
But that's been one of Vlade's issue so far - good ideas/initial moves with bad follow through. Getting a 1st rounder for Bellinelli? Great move. Taking Richardson with that pick? Boo
Let's hope he gets this draft right.
Its hard to predict what would have been once different events are set in motion. There is no way to tell if we would have had a better pick than #5 if that Philly trade does not happen, let alone whether we would have #3. You mention extra 2nd rounders, one extra 2nd rounder we have is because of the Hill signing. You also mention trying out players, I think Hayes fits that description. In general this is where I see us: a lot of young guys, some of them more promising, some of them more of projects. Two lottery picks joining that group (#2, Giles). Bunch of expiring contracts. EXTREME cap space flexibility next year. Yes there were things I wish were done differently but I'm not that sure the end product would be that much better positioned for the future than what we have now....