They Are Who We Thought They Were

[Bricklayer]

I am intentionally starting a bball-related thread here to give people who want to talk about something other than the Sword of Damacles hanging over Sacto's head right now.

There have been a lot of claims made about how our offense makes people underacheive, about how our vets have sucked etc. However, as you will see below the numbers do not back up this hypothesis:

Beno Udrih
10-11: 34.3min 13.5pts (.485 .354 .855) 3.4reb 4.3ast 1.2stl 0.1blk 1.7TO
Career: 23.7min 9.3pts (.462 .358 .830) 2.2reb 3.3ast 0.8stl 0.1blk 1.5TO

Carl Landry
10-11: 26.5min 11.9pts (.492 .000 .721) 4.8reb 1.0ast 0.8stl 0.4blk 1.6TO
Career: 24.8min 12.1pts (.542 .200 .771) 5.2reb 0.7ast 0.5stl 0.5blk 1.3TO

Francisco Garcia
10-11: 23.3min 9.3pts (.449 .379 .837) 2.5reb 1.2ast 0.7stl 0.9blk 0.7TO
Career: 23.3min 9.1pts (.444 .371 .805) 2.9reb 1.6ast 0.8stl 0.7blk 1.2TO

Samuel Dalembert
10-11: 21.0min 6.2pts (.468 .000 .732) 6.6reb 0.8ast 0.4stl 1.6blk 1.3TO
Career: 25.9min 7.9pts (.523 .000 .695) 8.2reb 0.5ast 0.5stl 1.9blk 1.5TO

Jason Thompson (for our purposes 25yr old young vet)
10-11: 21.1min 8.1pts (.485 .000 .643) 5.6reb 1.0ast 0.4stl 0.4blk 1.2TO
Career: 27.7min 10.9pts (.484 .053 .693) 7.4reb 1.3ast 0.5stl 0.8blk 1.7TO


If you adjust for minutes played, our vets have just about been spot on on thier career long productivity. Neither better, nor worse. Daly's shooting percentage was low in the ealry season, but then again remember he had an injury that took him out of action for the first time in 6 years and may have been slow to recover/get in shape.

My Counter-Hypothesis
So if everybody is right at their career numbers, and we have struggled, was this team just built to suck? No, it wasn't. The 5 vets above weren't supposed to do more than they have done (with the possible exception of Landry, who we wanted to become a major PF). The key to the team's fortunes is not the 5 vets producing as they always have, its been the other 4 core players -- the youth which we hoped/needed to improve. But Donte has taken a step back, Omri has stagnated, and of the course in the critical pairing Reke gimped around ineffectively for the first two months, and DeMarcus played the cluelss kid. Once those two players began to snap into gear back around Christmas, the team has gotten dramatically better. If Reke and Cousins had been playing in Nov/Dec the way they have been in Jan/Feb this team would have a lot more wins, may even have been pushing .500 for a while with the weak schedule. But our success/failure has been all about the kids progress/or lack thereof -- the vets are just placeholders. And that's pretty normal on a rebuilding team.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Too bad Reke is still hurt.

 

[bajaden]

So while no one seems to have taken a large step backwards as a result of being part of our current system, no one has take a large step forward either. Little or no improvement with any of those players listed. Not sure that says more about the players or the system. Or both. Regardless of the stats, I think we can agree that Beno is a better player now than he was when we aquired him. Thompson has regressed as his minutes have been reduced. Sort of a chicken or egg thing.

I guess one could argue that what were getting is what we expected to get. I think thats true with some of those players. I watched Dalembert play defense in Philly and I thought he played better there. But the difference is slight. How good did we expect Casspi to be in his second year. Personally I didn't expect him to be Paul Pierce. I expected him to look like a second year player that was taken number 22 in the draft. Lets remember, he wasn't a top 5 pick, and in actuality, he's played better than some players taken in the top ten. Its my opinion that he's not being used properly, but thats for another day.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm in agreement with your asessment. Just a long winded way of doing it..

 

[pshn80]

I hadn't looked at it that way but the bottom line, how I see we have been playing, and where the problems are tie right in with your analysis. The vets have done pretty well considering they need difference makers to put us in reasonable contention.

Beno is really a talented guy but I think he will always be one battery short of a pack. In other words his performance this season is about as good as it gets.

Omri and Donte show flashes here and there and on both ends of the court but they are underperforming my expectations so far. Worth working with.

I think the situation/performance of Tyreke and Cousins speaks for itself so far, that is, they are immensely talented but inexperienced and struggling with their physical and mental makeups. I think the future is promising for them and Kings performance.

Because Evans style of excellent play is somewhat out of sync with normal positon play, it is hard to play well without him. Neither a pure point guard or a pure two guard works real well with him so when he is out of the lineup we particularly hurt.

Thanks, Brick, for introducing this thread right now, it is a pleasant change from the unsettling business of the Kings' Sacramento future.

It will be tough to stay close tonight especially without Tyreke. It is a very challenging occasion for our team. I hope they play their competitive team best.

 

[swisshh]

Landry has been worse and misused. Beno has improved through the years overall and gets most of his good looks by creating for himself, still he shot better in Theus' guard oriented system. Right now he is getting his best stuff via his own work. He is like 4th in the black hole rating list amongst starting PGs.

Overall, this is a problem you can see by just observing. Statistics don't necessarily reflect shot quality and offensive flow. These are things you have to actually watch games to observe, and it has been pretty obvious to most in the league that the Kings offense is a mess. The way Landry is used as a high post guy so often and the amount of outside jumpers he takes really work against his strengths. They hardly use Reke on the post up anymore.

 

[Section 101]

I am intentionally starting a bball-related thread here to give people who want to talk about something other than the Sword of Damacles hanging over Sacto's head right now.

There have been a lot of claims made about how our offense makes people underacheive, about how our vets have sucked etc. However, as you will see below the numbers do not back up this hypothesis:

Beno Udrih
10-11: 34.3min 13.5pts (.485 .354 .855) 3.4reb 4.3ast 1.2stl 0.1blk 1.7TO
Career: 23.7min 9.3pts (.462 .358 .830) 2.2reb 3.3ast 0.8stl 0.1blk 1.5TO

Carl Landry
10-11: 26.5min 11.9pts (.492 .000 .721) 4.8reb 1.0ast 0.8stl 0.4blk 1.6TO
Career: 24.8min 12.1pts (.542 .200 .771) 5.2reb 0.7ast 0.5stl 0.5blk 1.3TO

Francisco Garcia
10-11: 23.3min 9.3pts (.449 .379 .837) 2.5reb 1.2ast 0.7stl 0.9blk 0.7TO
Career: 23.3min 9.1pts (.444 .371 .805) 2.9reb 1.6ast 0.8stl 0.7blk 1.2TO

Samuel Dalembert
10-11: 21.0min 6.2pts (.468 .000 .732) 6.6reb 0.8ast 0.4stl 1.6blk 1.3TO
Career: 25.9min 7.9pts (.523 .000 .695) 8.2reb 0.5ast 0.5stl 1.9blk 1.5TO

Jason Thompson (for our purposes 25yr old young vet)
10-11: 21.1min 8.1pts (.485 .000 .643) 5.6reb 1.0ast 0.4stl 0.4blk 1.2TO
Career: 27.7min 10.9pts (.484 .053 .693) 7.4reb 1.3ast 0.5stl 0.8blk 1.7TO


If you adjust for minutes played, our vets have just about been spot on on thier career long productivity. Neither better, nor worse. Daly's shooting percentage was low in the ealry season, but then again remember he had an injury that took him out of action for the first time in 6 years and may have been slow to recover/get in shape.

My Counter-Hypothesis
So if everybody is right at their career numbers, and we have struggled, was this team just built to suck? No, it wasn't. The 5 vets above weren't supposed to do more than they have done (with the possible exception of Landry, who we wanted to become a major PF). The key to the team's fortunes is not the 5 vets producing as they always have, its been the other 4 core players -- the youth which we hoped/needed to improve. But Donte has taken a step back, Omri has stagnated, and of the course in the critical pairing Reke gimped around ineffectively for the first two months, and DeMarcus played the cluelss kid. Once those two players began to snap into gear back around Christmas, the team has gotten dramatically better. If Reke and Cousins had been playing in Nov/Dec the way they have been in Jan/Feb this team would have a lot more wins, may even have been pushing .500 for a while with the weak schedule. But our success/failure has been all about the kids progress/or lack thereof -- the vets are just placeholders. And that's pretty normal on a rebuilding team.

So here we go with random stats vs PER.

Beno
09/10: 15.76
10/11: 15.36
Career: 13.87

Landry
09/10: 19.06
10/11: 15.06
Career: 18.31

Garcia
09/10: 12.42
10/11: 13.90
Career: 13.01

Dalembert
09/10: 16.84
10/11: 13.40
Career: 15.00

JT
09/10: 14.6
10/11: 13.65
Career: 14.07

So with the exception of Cisco who is coming off the freak ball injury all players are down from last year. In fact, this is Dalemberts 2nd lowest PER in his career after posting his highest last year.

 

[rainmaker]

While i agree to a certain extent, our vets, who should be consistent, have not been on a game by game basis. Landry is playing around his career average, but far worse than last year, and that has really hurt us. Beno was very consistent until disappearing the last month. Cisco I haven't been impressed with,and he'll be out indefintely. While the career averages might be there for some,the consistency on a nightly basis hasn't.

Let's also not forget career averages include the first couple seasons, when everyones numbers are naturally lower. With vets, I prefer comparing what they're doing now with what they're done the past couple seasons.

 

[Spike]

So crown them, Brick.


A stronger supporting cast will allow allow for those vets to play at their career averages, but further down the end of the bench, where those minutes/stats would be of more use...whichever vets end up staying.