The Sad Truth: Kings won't be competitive until 2010/11 Season

[Jerichoholic]

I think the thing that has frustrated us Kings fans the most is the harsh truth that has been blinded by false hope and that is the Kings won't be able to field a competitive team for at least 3 more years. The numbers, the talent level, the injuries all point to this and there is no way out. We all keep asking when will this team be blown up to start over, well...I will argue that this team has been blown up, but we didn't rebuild, we retooled and we're paying the price. Webber, Peja, Christie, BJax, Hedo, and Pollard were all traded, Vlade retired, and Bibby is the only holdover from our best years.

For the next 2 years our salary cap is in poor shape, we will only be able to use the mid-level exception for free agents and we probably shouldn't because it will only bury us more. Just look at Shareef and Moore. Trades won't work either because we have no tradeable assets, nothing that will get us what we want. The talent is too little or the contracts are too high. This only leaves draft picks and at least Petrie has been decent with that lately...although Thornton would have been a better need pick than Hawes this year.

In the 2009/10 season Bibby, Moore, and Artest (if he doesn't leave earlier) will be off the books and that will give us a salary cap number of about 45 million with an estimated cap around 57 million so that gives us some room to work with to possibly sign a top player to go with Martin, Hawes, Douby, Salmons, and whoever our later draft picks are. But that player will still need to get used to playing with our guys and will be the goal of that season.

In 2010/11 we will be in our best position with Miller, Thomas, and Shareef coming off the books so if we don't sign a franchise player in prior year we can this year and still have money to work with. With an estimated cap of 59 million we would have 22 million committed to our players without a star signed and have about 35 million committed with a star player. That's almost 25 million worth of cap space available either way plus another draft pick. That will give us a core of Martin, Hawes, Douby, Salmons, franchise player, lottery pick, lottery pick, and 25 million of cap space...now we're looking good.

If it's done right and we don't dig ourselves a deeper hole we should be in good shape in the beginning of the 4th year. It will be hard for fans to take the next 3 years, especially the next 2 but it will be this way no matter what. This current team can't do it and there is no way to blow up this team now. So do what you have to do to enjoy the next couple of years, watch college basketball for draft picks, study who the free agents will be in a few years, make bets against the Kings and make some money along the way. This is the sad truth and hopefully Petrie sees this too and doesn't try to continue to retool and mess us up for the next decade.

 

[fnordius]

...although Thornton would have been a better need pick than Hawes this year.

Getting Rondo instead of Douby might have prevented a couple of fan suicides, too. But look at the bright side. Our Yugo is now sitting on the shoulder, engulfed in flames. Nobody was willing to blow it up intentionally, but blowing it up accidentally works almost as well.

 

[Jerichoholic]

Getting Rondo instead of Douby might have prevented a couple of fan suicides, too. But look at the bright side. Our Yugo is now sitting on the shoulder, engulfed in flames. Nobody was willing to blow it up intentionally, but blowing it up accidentally works almost as well.

Blowing it up accidentally does work as well, it just takes longer. And I'm fine with Douby over Rondo, I think he will surprise a lot of people. Actually I think Hawes could be a fine player as well giving us an inside game to open things up for our perimeter players. However in regards to a "needs" pick we need rebounding and defense which Thornton provides but Hawes doesn't.

 

[Gary]

Jerichoholic,

I don't think once the $$ is off the books that Maloofs will stand pat. I have a feeling they will keep filling the roster with talent we can't use i.e. Moore for 18 mil..

Seriously.. The way I see it is that the Maloofs just paid 18 million to a guy (Moore) that will not be here when the team is looking to be competitive yet they still will pay him 18 million. To me that is wasted money. I have a feeling that we will be in cap trouble 3 years down the road as well.

 

[uolj]

I honestly don't think the Kings will have a truly competitive team until 2011-2012. That sucks in a way, but at least if they are able to get going faster I'll be pleasantly surprised. And if they don't, that's ok, I really wasn't expecting them to.

 

[Jerichoholic]

Jerichoholic,

I don't think once the $$ is off the books that Maloofs will stand pat. I have a feeling they will keep filling the roster with talent we can't use i.e. Moore for 18 mil..

Seriously.. The way I see it is that the Maloofs just paid 18 million to a guy (Moore) that will not be here when the team is looking to be competitive yet they still will pay him 18 million. To me that is wasted money. I have a feeling that we will be in cap trouble 3 years down the road as well.

That's what scares me, just signing players to make it look like they're trying just to appease the fans. That is the only explanation for Moore's signing, bring in an energy guy that the fans will like, kind of like Jon Barry. The problem is that Barry was better and much cheaper. As I mentioned if they play it that way we won't be out of the cellar until 2015.

 

[fnordius]

I'm fine with Douby over Rondo, I think he will surprise a lot of people. Actually I think Hawes could be a fine player as well giving us an inside game to open things up for our perimeter players. However in regards to a "needs" pick we need rebounding and defense which Thornton provides but Hawes doesn't.

Right. I don't think that Douby will be a bad ballplayer, either, but he's looking a lot more like Mobley than like Nash or Stockton. If we had picked someone like Rondo instead, we wouldn't be having this PG dilemma right now, we'd taking the thumb ligament lemon and making lemonade. But we didn't pick for need, so here we are.

 

[Gary]

That's what scares me, just signing players to make it look like they're trying just to appease the fans. That is the only explanation for Moore's signing, bring in an energy guy that the fans will like, kind of like Jon Barry. The problem is that Barry was better and much cheaper. As I mentioned if they play it that way we won't be out of the cellar until 2015.

That is what scares me most about this team. The Moore signing might have set us back in the free agent market for a couple years. If we had just let a guy like Watkins take his minutes for about 5 million cheaper we would have been better off. If we bring a guy like WAtkins in each year and if he does not work out than no big. If we find a guy that can give us decent numbers off the bench than all the better. We will never know though because of Moore (a guy we don't even need) is eating up 18 million.

I would rather have the Maloofs keep their mid-level exception than spend it on a guy that does not help this team. Just because they have the $$ does not mean they have to spend it.

 

[AriesMar27]

we need to blow this team up.... waiting sounds nice but thats not gonna help... with petrie signing all of these useless mle players every year...

drafting douby and not drafting a real pg like sergio, rondo or marcus williams really sucks right now but oh well... i wonder if seattle would trade watson for salmons or reef....

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

I agree with much of your post. I agree with regards to the draft, Petrie seems okay, but rather up and down. He's capable of taking the occasional plunge into getting the steal--Peja, G-Wall, Kevin Martin, etc.--but he's also capable of going against fan expectations (at least my expectations) with the past couple drafts in the drafting of Douby and Hawes. I know Petrie is looking by position, and in that case he's probably searching for the next Bobby Jackson (Douby) for scoring punch off the bench, and he's probably looking to inject youth (Hawes) into our big man positions. Not saying both players are bad, as they definitely have the goods and talent to contribute. However, instead of drafting by position, it could've been drafting by talent. Think about that relative to the position we are in today; had we drafted (Rondo) instead of Quincy Douby, who has shown the expected goods in shooting but doesn't really seem to have an edge in playmaking, then we would have the necessary tough perimeter defense, playmaking ability and perimeter slashing ability rolled into one, and Bibby's injury wouldn't evoke an emergency panic situation at the PG spot at all. I remember I was a big Rondo advocate back at draft day for us, but I hope this doesn't come to bite us back from behind. As Gary said below, pure playmaker Marcus Williams probably would've been a better choice as well seeing how many scorers and shooters (like Bibby) that we have on the team. And had we drafted Al Thornton instead of Spencer Hawes, we could've got an NBA-ready small forward who could play PF at spurts and have the athleticism, craft and stroke to score inside and out, to give us extra insurance in scoring. But, of course, hindsight is 20/20, but this is part of the gist of why we're suffering more than we could be right now.

There has been much talk about letting those fat contracts off the books--so much that the players' talents (or whatever is left of them) is often overlooked. But therein lies the situation; not trying to be overly pessimistic, but since this topic is brought out in the open, it's probably proper to address it now. A lot of us were really scratching our heads at the one-hit wonder Mikki Moore signing to a lucrative contract he clearly didn't deserve, and nothing has been done about Kenny Thomas and Shareef Abdur-Rahim's situation. Both are sort of dead weight, one being an undersized rebounding okay defensively potential cancer and the other being a one-dimensional offensive inside-outside player, essentially. Both are clearly aging fast, their values are next to zilch, and it's probably hard to jack up their value, meaning that it's really, really hard to trade them. I agree with that sentiment, although the best odds are we can stash one of them with a valued player (such as Bibby) we may have available for trade. Brad Miller yields sort of a mixed feeling; some are optimistic he will bounce back playing with more motivation and improving his conditioning this year, but others are still horrified by his regression and underachieving from last year that he's nearly, if almost, in the same category as Thomas and Rahim as potential trade bait. In other words, it's more reliance on youth, which may be good for the fan viewpoint in terms of watching for the sake of fun, but for the sake of wins, it's not a good recipe by any stretch. I do like what we have to work with in terms of our youth, essentially all-around wing Garcia, scorer K-Mart, fellow do-it-all versatile John Salmons, shotblockers Watkins/ Justin Williams (hopefully) and that's something that can help launch our broken rocket back into space again. But with the dead weight around them, it may be hard to get wins for the time being.

 

[Gary]

Remember 2006 draft I made a post... 5:00 until Marcus Williams

Damn I wish he would have drafted him. Williams did well towards middle/late last year, and is a true PG. Someone we could have used now. Someone who would have potentially made us better than with Bibby. DOH!!!

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13563&highlight=Marcus+Williams

Damn how I wish that came true

All except for the broken foot part and him being out 6 weeks too.

 

[Jerichoholic]

That is what scares me most about this team. The Moore signing might have set us back in the free agent market for a couple years. If we had just let a guy like Watkins take his minutes for about 5 million cheaper we would have been better off. If we bring a guy like WAtkins in each year and if he does not work out than no big. If we find a guy that can give us decent numbers off the bench than all the better. We will never know though because of Moore (a guy we don't even need) is eating up 18 million.

I would rather have the Maloofs keep their mid-level exception than spend it on a guy that does not help this team. Just because they have the $$ does not mean they have to spend it.

Exactly! I don't know why Petrie is all about signing these guys long term. Look back at our scoring PGs coming off the bench. We signed Vernon Maxwell for a year who did well, but we decided to go with Tony Delk the next year who also did well, but then when BJax was available we went with him long-term to a great deal.

The point is we waited for the player we wanted and the deal we wanted because if the deal wasn't right for us we would just go with someone else so players had to be willing to take what we offer.

Mikki Moore players are a dime a dozen, we can get one any year for a small portion of the exception. And just imagine how things would go if we actually gave our young guys a chance like Watkins or Williams, we would have another bargain on our hands. Anybody miss Gerald Wallace?

 

[Jerichoholic]

Arby's, in regards to the draft your right in the fact that Petrie tends to draft by POSITION need as opposed to best available. That is bad enough but he takes position need over TEAM needs. We desperately need defense, athleticism, rebounding, and hustle...that would describe Al Thornton perfectly. However we have a glut of players at SF and PF so I guess we can't draft him while we really only have one center. The problem with this is that we may be loaded with PFs, but we are not loaded with talented PFs. Just because a guy has a contract doesn't mean we shouldn't draft competition at his position, in fact we are waiting for his contract to come off the books so what do we do when that happens...get a replacement.

Regarding trades I'm taking their talent into consideration, for what they're paid it isn't enough in any way. Bibby would be a nice fit for a playoff team but they won't be willing to accept taking a deadweight contract as well because Bibby's is large enough. If we included someone else they would have to basically commit 18 million just to have Bibby...not worth it. The only tradeable things we have are Martin, future draft picks, and maybe Garcia and Douby. We can't afford to give up Martin or draft picks...we could give up Garcia and Douby but I don't think their value is high enough yet to attach a deadweight contract to them in a deal.

 

[hrdboild]

Don't forget Kyle Lowry. Could have had him too. Guy's good, just watch.

 

[kingsfan101]

Getting Rondo instead of Douby might have prevented a couple of fan suicides, too. But look at the bright side. Our Yugo is now sitting on the shoulder, engulfed in flames. Nobody was willing to blow it up intentionally, but blowing it up accidentally works almost as well.

While Douby can (and hopefully shall) prove the doubters wrong, Paul Millsap was possibly a much more egregious slip on Petrie's part. Here was a young, athletic player, who played our weakest position and filled one of our biggest requirements of defense and rebounding. Such players are rarely available late in the draft. We let him slip though for a player that is too small to play 2, and might never develop into a good PG.

Don't want to criticize with the benefit of hindsight, but it was a good chance to obtain a good, young PF at a bargain price. Maybe Millsap's height (6-8) went against him. He did slip to the second round, so over 10 GMs after us also thought his game might not be suitable for NBA.

 

[kingsfan101]

For the next 2 years our salary cap is in poor shape, we will only be able to use the mid-level exception for free agents and we probably shouldn't because it will only bury us more.

We shouldn't have used our MLE over the last few years, or if at all, went after some young guys with upside. Over the last 3 years, only Salmons fits that bill. Else, we have been paying vets, hoping to remain competitive, and it's not helping.

In particular, Miki's signing this year was quite strange. Petrie was talking about a rebuild, and then, suddenly, he goes out and signs Miki to this huge contract. Obviously, the aim is to win now, which also might be driven by the owners. This also raises a distinct possibility that some replacement shall be brought in for Bibby, and JW or Shakur shall be cut.

 

[Bricklayer]

Not sure I agree wiht the criticism that Geoff drafts for position. Quite to the contray, actually. If he was drafting for position, he would not have taken Douby. But Douby came in for a tryout and shot the lights out, and that always has Geoff crossing his legs to avoid looking like Pinnochio. So we got a tweener OG. Not because we (or any team) has a positional need for a tweener OG. But because Geoff likes offense, shooters specifically. Douby could shoot. Marcus Williams and Rondo could not. Hence Geoff's little brain cell fried "shooter good!", and we got ourselves a player who did not fill a need.

The year before that a team loaded with SF/OGs picked Cisco over David Lee for instance. It was only this year that Geoff finally decided to avoid best player (or shooter) available, and go for position. And of course because we were drafdting at #10 instead of #6 or whatnot, that turned out shaky.

 

[Arena Skeptic]

I hate to say this, but...

I think you're right.

And I've been saying it all along, that the Kings have five huge untradable veteran contracts, and the only way to get better is to let the clock run out on those deals. I won't mention the names; we all know who they are. One of them is out for 10-12 weeks now.

Frankly, though, I think it gets worse. I'm talking Spencer Hawes. Nearly everything I've read says he's "up and coming" and "a steal", and all these comments come from Kings fans.

Ahem. He's 19, and he's had knee surgery 4 times, included the dreaded microfracture surgery.

It may be unfair for me to say, "Well, I'm not that impressed", because no one has seen him play yet. As it was, his rebounding stats for a 7 footer in Pac 10 weren't that great. To me, he looks like a 7 foot tall small forward. And there have been some good 7 foot tall small forwards in the NBA.

But, those knees...

I'm 49. Pretty athletic. Seriously, I am. 6'2", 165, and I work out every day. Kinda wirey, yes. I've had sore knees during my career, to the point where my knees were actually hot to the touch. But I have never had knee surgery.

Four surgeries by the age of 19. Including Microfracture.

How can anyone say he has a bright future? It just seems to me that the very best you can say is that only about 20% of athletes who have had that surgery come back (and yes, the stats roughly support that), and express skepticism. But no one has seem him play, and many are already saying he's "up and coming."

Let's see some support for that theory before we use that phrase again.

And don't even get me started on shot-blocking on this team. I look at this team, and I think it'll have some pretty bleak stats in that regard. We'll see.

 

[BMiller52]

I think you're right.

And I've been saying it all along, that the Kings have five huge untradable veteran contracts, and the only way to get better is to let the clock run out on those deals. I won't mention the names; we all know who they are. One of them is out for 10-12 weeks now.

Frankly, though, I think it gets worse. I'm talking Spencer Hawes. Nearly everything I've read says he's "up and coming" and "a steal", and all these comments come from Kings fans.

Ahem. He's 19, and he's had knee surgery 4 times, included the dreaded microfracture surgery.

It may be unfair for me to say, "Well, I'm not that impressed", because no one has seen him play yet. As it was, his rebounding stats for a 7 footer in Pac 10 weren't that great. To me, he looks like a 7 foot tall small forward. And there have been some good 7 foot tall small forwards in the NBA.

But, those knees...

I'm 49. Pretty athletic. Seriously, I am. 6'2", 165, and I work out every day. Kinda wirey, yes. I've had sore knees during my career, to the point where my knees were actually hot to the touch. But I have never had knee surgery.

Four surgeries by the age of 19. Including Microfracture.

How can anyone say he has a bright future? It just seems to me that the very best you can say is that only about 20% of athletes who have had that surgery come back (and yes, the stats roughly support that), and express skepticism. But no one has seem him play, and many are already saying he's "up and coming."

Let's see some support for that theory before we use that phrase again.

And don't even get me started on shot-blocking on this team. I look at this team, and I think it'll have some pretty bleak stats in that regard. We'll see.

The cartilege in his microfracture knee supposedly looks very good and it's not really a weight bearing part of the knee anyway. A lot more like Amare's surgery than Webber's.

 

[Jerichoholic]

I know there has been a lot of skepticism about Spencer Hawes as there should be. He was the one player none of us fans wanted and when Petrie took him we looked for every possible good thing about him so it makes sense. I don't know how he will end up making it in the NBA but I will say that his knee surgeries don't bother me as it concerns his game, only if it is more likely to relapse.

The reason for this is that the microfracture surgery didn't just happen and now we're waiting to see if he comes back. It happened a long time ago and we have seen him play in college and the summer league since. He's been a poor rebounder, shot blocker, and defender...I don't know if he's just unathletic or if it was the knee problems but we knew these things when he was drafted and we still took him.

His strongest asset is his offense and that's why I hope he develops well and is ready for when we can be good in a few years. If he puts on weight and can adjust to the NBA he will demand a double team every time he touches the ball. I've watched him in college and the summer league and at just 19 years old his back to the basket game is already among the best in the league (it's a lost art). His footwork is amazing, he has and uses almost every low post move in the book, and he has a soft touch around the rim combined with a consistent mid range jump shot. Not to mention he will probably grow another inch or two, although he needs to put on another 30-40 pounds to take the most advantage of his game.

Now regarding the veterans on our team we don't just have an albatross hanging from our neck, we have a necklace of albatrosses (word? Perhaps the plural is also albatross )

 

[Glenn]

Spencer Hawes has more offensive moves than I have seen for a kid his age. He reminds me the most of Kevin McHale who I saw play as a teenager. Kevin turned out pretty good but didn't have half the moves Spencer now has. Maybe a lot of you have never even seen McHale play. He's in the top 50 of all time.

I suspect Spencer has spent most of his young life working on offense. The optimistic side of me says that he has ignored the defensive side and that there is plenty of realistic expectation that he will become a better rebounder and shot blocker. But that's me - out of step with my optimism.

Kings fans at least as represented here are some of the most negative people I have ever seen. Hence my past and future unwillingness to post here.

And re: Moore's HUGE contract: Moore this year will make roughly $5 million with the average NBA contract being $4 million and big guys getting more money than short guys. Mikki's contract is average for a big man, not huge.

You can continue to call it a huge contract but really, it's not.

Ciao!

 

[Arena Skeptic]

The cartilege in his microfracture knee supposedly looks very good and it's not really a weight bearing part of the knee anyway. A lot more like Amare's surgery than Webber's.

To which I say, the only good surgery is no surgery.

Four by the age of 19. Four! An average of just under 1 a year for 5 years.

That'll look pretty great when he's 27, eh?

"After Hawes 8th surgery in as many years, he declared he's ready to get started on the 2016 season. That's when he tripped over the microphone cord on the way out of the press room, and yelled 'Ouch!' like you've never heard anyone say 'Ouch!' before. He was removed on a stretcher."

Sorry. I shouldn't make light. But we're on the verge of a 26 win season; what else can you say when the Orien Greene has been given the job? If you can't maintain a sense of humor now, when CAN you maintain one?

 

[Smills91]

Right. I don't think that Douby will be a bad ballplayer, either, but he's looking a lot more like Mobley than like Nash or Stockton. If we had picked someone like Rondo instead, we wouldn't be having this PG dilemma right now, we'd taking the thumb ligament lemon and making lemonade. But we didn't pick for need, so here we are.

So you'd rather have a more athletic Eric Snow???

Give me Douby 10 times out o 10.

 

[Bricklayer]

So you'd rather have a more athletic Eric Snow???

Give me Douby 10 times out o 10.

And I'll beat you 10 times out of 10.

Shooting is not a top tier skill for a point guard. The orignal Eric Snow has started 500 games over his career and been to the NBA Finals twice. The "new" Eric Snow has a good shot to get there this year, and might lead the league in steals. He will do everything but shoot, and that's considerably more valuable than someone who does nothing but.

 

[tyrant]

moore for 18 million is pure stupidity. a true example of the word indeed. the maloofs just have to be smarter. i think we will be competitive soon. i wouldnt go as far as 2010. where's webber?

 

[fnordius]

So you'd rather have a more athletic Eric Snow???

Stats per 48, Rajon Rondo vs. Quincy Douby, 2006-7

RR: 42% FG, 21% 3s, 65% FT, 13.1 pts, 7.6 reb, 7.8 asst, 3.2 stl, .2 blk, 3.6 TO
QD: 38% FG, 24% 3s, 73% FG, 15.6 pts, 5.0 reb, 2.2 asst, 2.2 stl, .5 blk, 2.2 TO

I'd rather have a guy with similar stats who made an additional 254% more assists. He will probably develop into a viable PG this year.

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

Shooting is not a premium anymore in the league, particularly if you're talking about an undersized SG. I'm not saying that Douby is a bad player, as he's simply operating under his comfort zone of shooting, but he provides little more apart from that, except the occasional nice block and solid defense as usual. But players of that structure are quite predictable; they can have one-dimensional games at times, they may shoot their team in and out of games, they don't provide too many assists...it looks increasingly like Douby is of that mold. Many guys can simply shoot in the league to the point that it's almost expected from players to have a shot in the NBA, unless they have some remarkable quality(s) in any other aspect of the game. The league is like a mutation; teams are trying to develop more moves and countermoves to adjust to the increasing talent swarming into the NBA, and we even see face-up big men in the mold of Nowitzki and Yi Jianlian now. It's not what it used to be; a decade ago, Tracy Murray may have gotten away with his one-dimensional shooting, but now, Kareem Rush, another one-dimensional player but more athletic than Murray, is now struggling to be in the league.

And that's what I like Rondo. He was above average to superb in every other aspect besides shooting, and he had the athleticism and defensive instincts already down pat. Shooting one of the easier things to learn in the league, coming with repetition and experience, but you can't teach athleticism and defense, as the latter is mostly about instincts and in a league of athletic players, comes with being athletic as well. How often do you run into a guy like Rondo? He had triple doubles in college, was an insane rebounder who once pulled down close to 20 in a game, racked up steals like a madman and showed extremely nice drive and dish skills and ability to run an offense. It's amazing to see how many GMs got turned off by his shot, the Kings being one of them. But a lot of this has to fall on GMs too; Geoff clearly has it hard on for shooting, be it Kevin Martin, Garcia, and now Douby, and Danny Ainge has it hard on for athleticism and high schoolers, be it Gerald Green, Kendrick Perkins, Al Jefferson and now Rondo. I may be biased because I also have a leaning towards athletic players, but I believe Petrie should try to get one of those prototypes and it should really pay off dividends--if not back then, then at least for the future.

Smills, Rondo is not like Eric Snow at all. Rondo is far more athletic, far more capable of slashing to the basket, although the playmaking abilities may be equivalent. Snow simply makes the most of his own physical tools and plays tough defense, aside from being a true floor general. Rondo has the tools to be great--it's clear why many considered it a coup when Danny Ainge was able to keep Rondo in the KG deal. There's something in the kid.

 

[BMiller52]

To which I say, the only good surgery is no surgery.

Four by the age of 19. Four! An average of just under 1 a year for 5 years.

That'll look pretty great when he's 27, eh?

"After Hawes 8th surgery in as many years, he declared he's ready to get started on the 2016 season. That's when he tripped over the microphone cord on the way out of the press room, and yelled 'Ouch!' like you've never heard anyone say 'Ouch!' before. He was removed on a stretcher."

Sorry. I shouldn't make light. But we're on the verge of a 26 win season; what else can you say when the Orien Greene has been given the job? If you can't maintain a sense of humor now, when CAN you maintain one?

Yeah you can say that but Amare Stoudemire has had 3 or 4 knee surgeries in the last 2 years. He's still dunking, jumping, and has shown he can recover well. Really he is recovering from the same thing Spencer just went through. He's had microfracture more recently and he's fine. Honestly Spencer just had a scope done I think, so it's no big deal. The only knee surgeries I worry about are microfracture, ACL, MCL, etc. The other stuff is pretty minor. Spencer's microfracture surgery went well for him when he was 14, the cartilege is nearly perfect, and it's a non-weight bearing part of the knee IIRC. It hasn't impacted his game and he hasn't had any problems with it ever since he had the surgery. I mean I don't say how you can just say his career is done. It's not even like the surgery he just had is going to cause him to miss a big part of the year or anything.

He proved he can score in the summer league and college. He can pass. He has a great post game. Don't get me wrong, we need a rebounding and shotblocking stud next to him in the future but he can be the starting center of the future IMO.

 

[beb0p]

And I'll beat you 10 times out of 10.

Shooting is not a top tier skill for a point guard. The orignal Eric Snow has started 500 games over his career and been to the NBA Finals twice. The "new" Eric Snow has a good shot to get there this year, and might lead the league in steals. He will do everything but shoot, and that's considerably more valuable than someone who does nothing but.

I agreed that a player who can't shoot is better than a guy who does nothing but. However, Douby is not someone who does nothing but shoot. He also plays the defensive side of the ball and he is a good dribbler and ok passer. I think the PG part will click with time and experience. So far, I'm encouraged by his play. Douby can become the next Eric Snow except he can shoot.

As for Rondo, Marcus, and Lowdry; each has his own liabilities. I don't see any of the three as having an edge over Douby at this point. I see Douby and Rondo as slightly better than the rest, and even if Rondo does get ahead, it won't be by much imo.

With that said, what we have to keep in mind is that 2006 was a crappily weak draft. And I see Douby as the best of the remaining crap.

 

[dude12]

If Hawes comes out and plays well, I'm betting that your outlook will brighten instantly. We have a young skilled big man who will be able to score in the post. I'm not going to worry about his knees. The last report said that his previous micro-fracture surgery looked very good. What I focus on is the fact that we don't have any big man that can score in the post...unless you count Rahim, which I don't anymore. Of course, he's going to come up short on the rebounding and shot-blocking but I hope that his skill set helps are other players perform better.

Thornton does not play PF. He's a small forward all the way. A good looking rookie except that Hawes is the better pick. I'm thinking that Rondo is a potential backup PG who is getting starters minutes. He's as good as the guys around him. He would not make a difference on this team. The same goes for Marcus Williams. Nice players but what have they done? Will these guys be all-stars? Really don't think so. Rondo doesn't shoot the ball well enough. The Bibby injury does allow for the staff to see what we got in Douby and Cisco. For me, the jury is out on Cisco...can he be a consistent NBA rotation player? Same for Douby. Same goes for Hawes.