Tear Down The Team

[kromeace]

My first post on here and I doubt I am gonna' make any friends...

Tear this team down, I don't care who we add, just give me something worth watching. First to go is "Team Dime" CEO Bibby... I am tired of his "this is my team" and I can will the ball in attitude... while complaing about others only worrying about scoring. His numbers have dropped each year since the 02 season... and I am sick of "Me Ball". Tonight was another shining example of his shooting the ball because it will go in some day. He takes Kmart out of the game when he does that... Kmart took all of 7 shots tonight, and had only one less assist then Bibby... For Bibby to have only 5 asissts as a PG is stupid, especially when the teram is shooting over 50%.

While we are at it chuck Artest and whom ever else... keep the young guns and let's see what they are made of. Give more consistant PT to Douby, Garcia, Price... and of course keep Kmart.

While we are at it... New Coach? When a new coach starts off by listening to Bibby wanting his 4 corners... time to move on... we need a coach that will coach his players, not cater to them.

Just toss the season into the can... let the young guys run... I have never not wanted to watch this team since the days I meet the team on the good will tour in 85... but now... yeah... just not worth watching...

 

[TheJoker]

It's already teared down my friend. now we're just witnessing how a team goes from bad to really bad in the next 4 months. hang in there though we only have a couple of months until this season is over.
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[BMiller52]

Actually with those thoughts you'll make a lot of friends on this forum, the "tear down the team" idea is pretty common and for a good reason. I can't say I disagree, but I can say that I think there are a few players who have got to go whether we do or don't rebuild.

 

[kyo2002]

You can't know the future exactly, but the Blazers did that to the team with Wallace, Wells, Stoudamire, Davis, etc; they decided to go with the youth movement. The youth movement hasn't panned out for the Blazers and this Blazers have many of the same personnel issues that good one did (Miles and Randolf). All these years and they are still getting high draft picks...although they did beat the Kings twice already. And on a side note, the Hawks has been rebuilding with youth since the days of William Tecumseh Sherman.

 

[Bricklayer]

You can't know the future exactly, but the Blazers did that to the team with Wallace, Wells, Stoudamire, Davis, etc; they decided to go with the youth movement. The youth movement hasn't panned out for the Blazers and this Blazers have many of the same personnel issues that good one did (Miles and Randolf). All these years and they are still getting high draft picks...although they did beat the Kings twice already. And on a side note, the Hawks has been rebuilding with youth since the days of William Tecumseh Sherman.

The Blazers have a pretty bright future actually. They have turned the corner.

I prefer the San Antonio, Phoenix or Miami model, relatively short periods of suck to land the stud. But whatever. They aren't sitting around in Dallas crying in their beer about being bad enough to draft Dirk, or Cleveland about being bad enough to nab LeBron. Its just part of the cycle, so let's get to it already, dive down under our own power with a plan rather than fluttering about like a bird with a broken wing. Target this draft, scoop as much talent as we can, throw it around Kevin, who increasingly looks to me to be a good #3 or solid #2 type guy, and start back up. But get that stud. That is all important in the NBA.

 

[DaMan]

You can't know the future exactly, but the Blazers did that to the team with Wallace, Wells, Stoudamire, Davis, etc; they decided to go with the youth movement. The youth movement hasn't panned out for the Blazers and this Blazers have many of the same personnel issues that good one did (Miles and Randolf). All these years and they are still getting high draft picks...although they did beat the Kings twice already. And on a side note, the Hawks has been rebuilding with youth since the days of William Tecumseh Sherman.

LoL, everybody needs to rebuild at some point, not one team could stay great. Its the cycle of sports. How long the process takes depends on GM it could take 2 years or could take 10, it all depends on the moves and choices of the GM. For the kings I think it will take 4 to 6 season to get back on top in the west.

And even if you do not want to say it or not the blazers have a pretty good future. With a core of Roy, Jack, Aldrighe, and Zach with a lottery pick which could get them a player like Durant, its not to bad being a blazers fan right now.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Things are definitely looking up here in Portland. But I agree with Brick that its not always the preferable way to do things. Chances are just as likely that you end up like Boston or worse like Atlanta.

We're pretty fortunate that we may be hitting what we all hope will be rock bottom in a good draft year and with a lot of contracts ready to come off the books.

Still if we do land a stud in the draft or even through trade we'll probably be back where we were in 99 - a few years away from legitimately contending but moving forward each year instead of taking a few steps back.

 

[kyo2002]

SERIOUSNESS ASIDE, why don't the NBA just make baskets in the paint 1 pt, baskets from the half court 5 pts, full court 10, move the hoop up another five feet, make the rim bigger, and get rid of free throws because players are just attacking the basket with no real chance of making a shot for calls these days (Wade, Iverson, especially Maggette, etc. and for the Kings Kevin Martin) and the defense either gets out of the way or stand there for a charge which is always a blocking foul --- 100 pts doesn't equal more fun;

the point being Greek pick and roll, mismatch clearly is better than USA's 15 people athletic, nonstop pressure on both ends i.e. involve more skill and luck instead of getting people for the sake that they are 7 ft. In any case it may stop the craziness about Kings fans hoping to throw a season away for Oden. Crazy idea or not? or just bad line of reasoning?

 

[Spike]

In any case it may stop the craziness about Kings fans hoping to throw a season away for Oden.

Mmm....Oden + Martin...drool...

 

[kromeace]

Actually with those thoughts you'll make a lot of friends on this forum, the "tear down the team" idea is pretty common and for a good reason. I can't say I disagree, but I can say that I think there are a few players who have got to go whether we do or don't rebuild.

Originally Posted by piksi

Hell, we can put Kings games on different channels and actually do some good. For example - if You put a Kings game on a "food network" people will lose appetite or start throwing up. It would be an effective way to fight obesity.


Food channel comment made me spit out my starbucks!

 

[Jechtsphere]

SERIOUSNESS ASIDE, why don't the NBA just make baskets in the paint 1 pt, baskets from the half court 5 pts, full court 10, move the hoop up another five feet, make the rim bigger, and get rid of free throws because players are just attacking the basket with no real chance of making a shot for calls these days (Wade, Iverson, especially Maggette, etc. and for the Kings Kevin Martin) and the defense either gets out of the way or stand there for a charge which is always a blocking foul --- 100 pts doesn't equal more fun;

the point being Greek pick and roll, mismatch clearly is better than USA's 15 people athletic, nonstop pressure on both ends i.e. involve more skill and luck instead of getting people for the sake that they are 7 ft. In any case it may stop the craziness about Kings fans hoping to throw a season away for Oden. Crazy idea or not? or just bad line of reasoning?

Maybe I'm alone but the charge is the worst rule in the game, taking a charge isn't defense, it's pathetic and weak, jumping in the way of someone at the last second.

They should get rid of it and make you play some real defense.

 

[nbrans]

Maybe I'm alone but the charge is the worst rule in the game, taking a charge isn't defense, it's pathetic and weak, jumping in the way of someone at the last second.

They should get rid of it and make you play some real defense.

Uh... I think Shane Battier and his 8 stitches would disagree that taking a charge is pathetic and weak.

 

[Spike]

They should get rid of it and make you play some real defense.

Taking a charge is real defense. You're establishing position on the court in an attempt to deny an offensive player from occupying that space. It's about as "real defense" as it gets.

 

[BMiller52]

Mmm....Oden + Martin...drool...

Yeah that sounds really good right about now

 

[AriesMar27]

trade everyone that isnt an expiring contract or on a rookie contract.... if we are gonna suck, lets atleast do it right....

 

[Jechtsphere]

Taking a charge is real defense. You're establishing position on the court in an attempt to deny an offensive player from occupying that space. It's about as "real defense" as it gets.

So jumping in someones way at the last second is real defense or flopping on a play is real defense?

I guess my biggest issue is flopping, it's way too easy to flop.

I Guess people who can't play real defense like Mike Bibby have no choice but to use the charge.

 

[Bricklayer]

So jumping in someones way at the last second is real defense or flopping on a play is real defense?

I guess my biggest issue is flopping, it's way too easy to flop.

I Guess people who can't play real defense like Mike Bibby have no choice but to use the charge.

Oh no, I am very much with you on this play. The "moving flop" which qualifies as a charge in the NBA is ridiculous. If you're not set for a second or two, you're not set, and at best it should be a no call. What's happened is that the good defnesive technique of sliding your feet to get in between the offensive player and the basket has become conflated with the charge rule so that now people slide their feet to get in the way of the defender with the explicit purpose of immediately falling down and tryng to cheat basically -- for that is all a flop is. Of course this is only encouraged by the insistence on ,aking a call everytime an offensive player flies into a defender and bounces off -- they feel they have to call SOMETHING every time, when a whole lot of it should be no calls at best, let them play on, travel, throw up garbage shots, and maybe get back to having to actually play basketball rather than run around as grade Z actors trying to hoodwink the refs.

An anti-flopping rule ala the one the instituted in hockey would be a welcome addition. Would no doubt get called at times when it shouldn't, and not be called at times when it should, but it would make the whole flopping phenomenon a lot more risky for the floppers, and I think therefore cut down on a lot of it. If falling down and throwing body parts around wildly trying to trick a ref into calling a foul were to actually bear some risk to the flopper, chances are there would be a lot more people just playing the game.

 

[Spike]

So jumping in someones way at the last second is real defense or flopping on a play is real defense?

I guess my biggest issue is flopping, it's way too easy to flop.

I Guess people who can't play real defense like Mike Bibby have no choice but to use the charge.

Clearly we're talking about two different things here. If you take the charge, that means you are in proper defensive position. You beat the player to a spot on the floor, and reserve the right to occupy that space. As a defender, you have interrupted the offensive player's plans. Advantage: defense.

 

[Bricklayer]

You beat the player to a spot on the floor,

That I think is the problem -- that should not be. If you are there, you are there. But it should never be a race resulting in a foul. As in I hop in front of him and then he charges. Essentially it should be difficult to ever draw a charge on your own man. Stepping up to fill a lane and drawing one against somebody else's man is the classic situation.

 

[acisking]

That I think is the problem -- that should not be. If you are there, you are there. But it should never be a race resulting in a foul. As in I hop in front of him and then he charges. Essentially it should be difficult to ever draw a charge on your own man. Stepping up to fill a lane and drawing one against somebody else's man is the classic situation.

True, but with all the new rules these days favoring offensive players, the ability to jump in front of your man and stop him is pretty much the only way to play man to man defense. I mean, you can no longer even hand check an opponent to slow him down. Since, as you pointed out earlier, any contact between the offensive and defensive player is for whatever reason called as a foul of some sort, the ability for a defender to draw a charge is crucial in maintaining balance between the offense and the defense.

 

[rhythmless]

acisking, i totally agree with you. The charge rule needs to be there, or else the offensive player will just run over and knock people down, which is hardly good offense. The only time I see a problem with the charge rule is that a "flop" may not always be an intentional flop, but a basic issue with physics: the defender is usually backpedaling to defend against the offensive player, so any additional pressure, however slight, may cause the defensive player to topple over backwards.

Back to the thread...

ive been reading all of these blow it up threads, etc, and it all sounds great on paper. But, Bibby, Wells, Stojakavic, SAR, and Miller sounded like contenders when we put that together a couple years ago. It doesn't work out that easy. I think there are many reasons why Geoff has not conceded the season entirely. First, our talent level is high. Sans a defensive presense inside (which many other teams lack as well), we have highly skilled players. They just need to "get it together."

Second, in the midst of the arena issue, are the Maloofs gonna want to trade away all our stars? How much support will a bunch of nameless young unproven kids garner from the general Sacramento public? I know KF would stand behind it, but who else would?

Third, who do you even trade for? Our swing positions are packed, and obviously we want a young talented big. The issue there is that EVERYONE wants a young talented big. those that have them aren't trading them away. The only big we would be able to trade for is an unproven big, or underperforming big, but even that would be very difficult. There are tons of threads for bandage bigs, such as Etan, Butler, etc, but we wouldnt win a championship with a middling big to play 15-20 minutes a game.

Lastly, the draft is a game of gambles. If you manage to trade away your stars, and get a couple good draft picks, this doesnt translate into good players. Especially with bigs, very few of them are sure things, and those that are are taken way too high. Saer Sene showed potential, nothing else, and was taken 10th(?). He's currently averaging a point, and a rebound, for 16 games. Darko was taken second, and theyre still waiting for him. The Kandi man was taken first, and where is he now? And say that the drafted big does competantly, but is not a star. Where does that leave you? Exactly where we are right now (talent wise): with good players who may be all stars, but usually wont.

I'm all in favor of chasing that number one pick, but I think that we need to realize that WE have nothing to lose if it doesn't pan out, whereas Petrie could lose his job, his reputation, and the Maloofs could lose millions of dollars, in addition to the arena. It's all very easy to sit on our computers and tell them what to do when we have nothing to lose. i know we think our lives depend on the Kings, but lets put it in perspective here, this is their livelihood.

 

[tyrant]

mike bibby isnt the problem. we were kicking butt when he was our starting point guard in 01-04. the problem is that the kings have too many crybabies on the floor. not enough players that will accept their role and shut their mouths. and im sick of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bottom line. trades need to be made. brad miller is a great teammate, but he's not tough enough in the paint and no team can win with him anchoring their front line. just my 20 cents

 

[Bricklayer]

a) no the Bibby/Wells/Peja/Reef/Miller stupidity only sounded like a contender in fantasy ball, and one of the more alarming things about this whole process is the lack of insight that revealed in our GM. Apparently he truly thought a team full of soft secondary scorers = contender on the theoruy that you can just add up their points, and that points are all that matters. Amazing.

b) And yes, the draft is a crapshoot, but this year of all years its a crapshoot with weighted dice. Depending on who you listen to anywhere from 3-7 of the 14 lottery picks could end up being real studs. Not merely "good" players like we have, but impact players, franchisae players, players you build a team around. Without one allt he rest of thissecond rate crap we have is completely pointless. Only one team in memory has won a title full of second rate crap, and even they had a guy who an impact guy despite his limitations, as well as another who could be an impact guy on any given night when he felt like it (the two Wallaces).

We are losing anyway. Have actually managed to lose ourselves into the serious lottery hunt here with a bunch of vets who individually are better than they play together. So at this point it would be serious and stupid miscalulation #1794 by this front office not to take advanatge of that fact. we are in "the hunt". An odd hunt given thqat its a drive to the bottom, but still in the hunt for a top pick. Grow some balls and go for it, and load us up with young talent with the trades needed to make sure we get there. How much worse is the new team going to be than 14-21? And with a real chance this year of being much better int he not so distant future.

 

[DaMan]

mike bibby isnt the problem. we were kicking butt when he was our starting point guard in 01-04. the problem is that the kings have too many crybabies on the floor. not enough players that will accept their role and shut their mouths. and im sick of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bottom line. trades need to be made. brad miller is a great teammate, but he's not tough enough in the paint and no team can win with him anchoring their front line. just my 20 cents

LOL, bibby was on a great team that could hide his weakness and fit his play. Bibby is not on that team no more and he being fully exposed for what he is, a guy that can't do any thing but score and when he can't do that he is worthless. I am not saying that he is the whole problem but he is part of it.

 

[Bricklayer]

LOL, bibby was on a great team that could hide his weakness and fit his play. Bibby is not on that team no more and he being fully exposed for what he is, a guy that can't do any thing but score and when he can't do that he is worthless. I am not saying that he is the whole problem but he is part of it.

Mike Bibby is also the only player on this Kings team that we know can be a major player on a great team (possible exception Corliss, although his role was reduced when they wont he title). His problem is that he's clearly not so great as to be able to cause the winning himself, just somebody who has shown that he can be a key part of a great team in a way that most of our guys have not.

 

[DaMan]

Mike Bibby is also the only player on this Kings team that we know can be a major player on a great team (possible exception Corliss, although his role was reduced when they wont he title). His problem is that he's clearly not so great as to be able to cause the winning himself, just somebody who has shown that he can be a key part of a great team in a way that most of our guys have not.

Bibby was a major player on those teams becasue it fit his play. And i also think that Artest, Sar, Brad, and Martin could be a major players if they too could find a team that fits them.

 

[Bricklayer]

Bibby was a major player on those teams becasue it fit his play. And i also think that Artest, Sar, Brad, and Martin could be a major players if they too could find a team that fits them.

All of the above are speculation. Mike, we've actually SEEN. There is an impotant difference there.


Mike may very well not be what this team needs, or not be the guy to save this team, but its treading on very thin ice to run around pointing at him as the problem and a bunch of cancers, kids, and career losers as guys who could do better. He probably has more trade value to a contending team than any other player on our roster, because he's the only guy who's proven he can get it done on that stage, and without tearing a team apart in the process.

 

[Heuge]

All of the above are speculation. Mike, we've actually SEEN. There is an impotant difference there.

On more then one stage even with two different teams.

 

[kromeace]

Just make Mike "It's my team and quit worrying about your points as I jack up more crap and shoot less then 30% from the floor" Bibby go away... please! His shooting % numbers have been dropping since 02', including his "Scares me to Death 3's"... year after year lower numbers... and his assists lately bite for PG. (cause he is thinking about team dime only- a team of one)

Trade him for beer or what ever, I don't care... throw Artest in with him for some nachos... and let the young guys learn the ropes, learn about playing with each other (not in that way) and let's see what happens.

 

[DaMan]

All of the above are speculation. Mike, we've actually SEEN. There is an impotant difference there.


Mike may very well not be what this team needs, or not be the guy to save this team, but its treading on very thin ice to run around pointing at him as the problem and a bunch of cancers, kids, and career losers as guys who could do better. He probably has more trade value to a contending team than any other player on our roster, because he's the only guy who's proven he can get it done on that stage, and without tearing a team apart in the process.

Yea, it all could be speculation but I have seen happen for other players. Webber was noted as a cancer but turned out to be a Great player, bibby was noted as a loser but turned out to be a good impact player and Diaw for the suns was noted as failure but became a good impact player, the list could go and on. If these guys could just find the team that runs there system of play they could be very good players.

I never did say Bibby was the problem, he is only part of the problem. To not say he was would be wrong, ever since that great team he has been exposed for his defense, chucking, and lack of passing all of which could be hiden on the old team.