Still think I was wrong to have faith in Vlade and Joerger?

well Vlade knew since begining what he wants, and since Cousins trade he finally had chance to implement it..

he wanted players who want to be in Sacramento, wanted first good persons, and latter good basketball players.. and if you compare atmosphere on and off the court now and for example 5 years ago, you will see 180 degrees change..

problem is that big changes do not happen over night, especially in small market team, and changes to reflect results need even more time.. I am just glad that results are coming now, so Vlade, Dave and players gets more time with fanbase, as I think his job with Vivek was never in danger.. I think they have long tearm plans, and not day to day plan like most of the fans.. one game Fox is better than Wall, next one he is a bust :D which is normal, as fans go with emotions, not rationality..

same thing is on court.. Dave and Vlade have plan, that is why nobody in organisation was panicking when Kings played slow last year, as nobody is I guess is panicking for lack of defense sometimes.. they know, why is that happening, and everything is on schedule for this young team..

Anyway, Kings have nice young core, and more importantly players that like to play together and that love to be Kings.. that is biggest Vlade achievement.. everything else will come with time..
 
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They're 3-3....yes, you couldn't help yourself. Its encouraging to see better defense, for a game - at home, against a more level opponent. But ,FTs are a major issue. And they'll need similar defense every game at least the same or better.
 
biltalent said:
Thank you for your reply. Can you elaborate a bit on that? How did last year contribute to what we are seeing now with Fox? I'm still struggling a bit with this concept because if you'd ask me I would have argued that it would be best to play the same way last year if you want to become good at it this year. The more similar, the better. Also I would have worried to kill Fox' confidence by exposing his weaknesses.
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Last year was about Fox and other young guys working on their weaknesses. One of Fox’s weaknesses was running the offense in a half court set. He got exposed to it all of last season. He learned on the job, got to try stuff, make mistakes, study the film, figure things out. At the same time he had great veterans in his ear pointing thing out, encouraging him, keeping his confidence and just teaching him what they are seeing, what he needs to look for etc...Vinsanity, Hill (while he was a King) and especially Temple have been huge in helping Fox develop and not allow him to lose his confidence when things were not going well.

A year later and and you have a very different player in the half court. A very different player. Forget the stats but eye test tells me all I need to know about Fox and his play in half court so far this season. Last season’s experience in that system and with those vets was worth it’s weight in gold. When the game does slow down and it becomes a grind, Fox will be capable to execute as a PG at a high level. His open court ability was always there and that is not going to leave him. He added another aspect to his game that he didn’t have coming out of Kentucky. Its the aspect of the game that you can’t really add as quickly add if you are not consistently exposed to it as Fox was last year. He is SIGNIFICANTLY better at running the team in half court compared to last year. It’s chalk ans cheese really.

Playing that style didn’t only help Fox but it also helped others like WCS who has developed a solid game from the elbow. Going forward this team will run for years to come but the foundation was set last season for a lot of these youngsters.
 
ParniValjak said:
Precisely what it was about. People also don’t realize how much it helped Fox’s development...just compare Fox in half court this season compared to last. Its a huge improvement and that is in no small part due to his experience in that offense last season. I said at the time, it was about development and drilling fundamentals and drilling in that competitive, grit and grind attitude into these kids. See how they dig in these days when the game is on the line? Those are the shoots from the seeds planted last season.
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I admit freely I was not feeling coach by the end of preseason. They were still running stuff a lot of the time through the bigs at the high post, then he comes out and says they only have 20% of the offense implemented (or whatever the percentage was). To me, that meant we will be running the high post offense, and over time making it more complex — without considering our personnel. I really thought the talk of playing fast and with pace was just talk and we would fall back into what we’ve seen over the past couple years. However, with this first couple weeks, I think I can now understand the vision. Play fast, put the ball in fox’s hands - with at this point a pretty simplistic but effective offense. Over time, we refine our half court offense so in a couple years we are ready for playoff basketball :cool:
 
ParniValjak said:
Last year was about Fox and other young guys working on their weaknesses. One of Fox’s weaknesses was running the offense in a half court set. He got exposed to it all of last season. He learned on the job, got to try stuff, make mistakes, study the film, figure things out. At the same time he had great veterans in his ear pointing thing out, encouraging him, keeping his confidence and just teaching him what they are seeing, what he needs to look for etc...Vinsanity, Hill (while he was a King) and especially Temple have been huge in helping Fox develop and not allow him to lose his confidence when things were not going well.

A year later and and you have a very different player in the half court. A very different player. Forget the stats but eye test tells me all I need to know about Fox and his play in half court so far this season. Last season’s experience in that system and with those vets was worth it’s weight in gold. When the game does slow down and it becomes a grind, Fox will be capable to execute as a PG at a high level. His open court ability was always there and that is not going to leave him. He added another aspect to his game that he didn’t have coming out of Kentucky. Its the aspect of the game that you can’t really add as quickly add if you are not consistently exposed to it as Fox was last year. He is SIGNIFICANTLY better at running the team in half court compared to last year. It’s chalk ans cheese really.

Playing that style didn’t only help Fox but it also helped others like WCS who has developed a solid game from the elbow. Going forward this team will run for years to come but the foundation was set last season for a lot of these youngsters.
Click to expand...

Thank your very much for taking the time for this post. Thats why I love kingsfans.com. Were else can you have such an insightful discussion?
I must say it makes sense the way you describe it. It might very well be the case. I was attributing Fox looking way better in the half court to more spacing in general. But maybe the last year being exposed to tight spaces and the feedback really helped him now with more space. I especially agree about the closing games part. Joerger clearly said that the strategy was to keep games close until the forth and then see what happens. It already paid dividends. Youre probably not learning that if you go high pace immediately.
 
Vlade and Joeger have forgotten more hoops than any of us will ever know. But irrespective of results, there's going to be a loud minority (here and especially elsewhere) who think they're idiots.

My view, Vlade's a gambler. I've never been of the perspective that he didn't know the stretch provision was available for the Philly trade. It was partly a capital decision and a gamble. We think $30 or so million (forgot the actual savings; though I have the analysis from a few years ago, if folks want to see it) is nothing for an NBA org, but the margins are much smaller than any of us could imagine. Owners won't look at eating $30M the same way fans on a message board would. So I don't fault him for leveraging Philly's bottom line. However, he did fail in the gambling part of the decision matrix. Vlade thought he could change the culture overnight, but it blew up in his face. Some good, some bad.

As for Joeger, he's a grinder. Last year was damn painful, but necessary. Fox could play fast and do it at an efficiency level that very few folks can do in the NBA. But why double down on that his first year when he needed to learn how to play slow, run offenses, work with a few dinosaurs (ZBO...)--area under the curve (work on the weaknesses first to maximize the area). We're reaping the benefits from those growing pains now. My way of saying I ain't got no issues with Joeger. We're a competent 3 and D away from being a perennial playoff team.
 
The Kings players are just too young and naive to know that they are supposed to lose! ;)

Just wait until next year, when they will have more experience and realize they are the Kings and aren’t supposed to win! :p

GO KINGS!!! :cool:
 
Section 101 said:
I think you’re all ****** in the head. We’re ten hours from the ******’ fun park and you want to bail out! Well, I’ll tell you something, this is no longer a vacation, it’s a quest. It’s a quest for fun. I’m gonna have fun and you’re gonna have fun. We’re all gonna have so much *****’ fun we’ll need plastic surgery to remove our goddam smiles! You’ll be whistling "Zippity Doo Da" out of your ***hole
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Lol
2341F886-F5F9-4762-83B5-E353BB8586D4.jpeg
 
I liked the Joerger hiring (and still do). He was originally given a win now with Cousins mandate. Once the Cousins trade was made this all changed and the team was in a total reset/rebuild mode and I knew patience would be required. However, patience in is short supply in our fast-paced instant gratification world.

I have felt all along that there is a long-term plan in place and they have been following it. Build a team from the ground up. Avoid the temptation to trade away assets or sign short term players to “win now”. Instead, go young. Go with character. Develop the youth. There will be bumps and detours along the way, but stick with it.

I think part of young player development involves developing discipline and fundamentals. A lot of fans advocated just throwing the young guys out on the court and let them play a lot of minutes helter-skelter. That would have been detrimental to their development. Veteran players were brought in to mentor the youth and provide stability, not to win now. The slower pace, half-court high post game was basic basketball 101. They were learning to play under control and with discipline.

This is the way I have seen things since the Joerger hiring and especially since the trade. I have been an advocate of giving them time, measured in years not weeks, for the plan to work. But, in our instant gratification world, this has not set well with a lot of fans or at least a vocal subset of fans.
However, I think we are already starting to see the team reap the benefits of sticking with the plan even earlier than I anticipated. But,there is a lot of room for improvement and I will not be surprised to see some regression (with the accompanying weeping, beating of breasts, burning of sackcloth and calls for Joerger to be fired by the disgruntled). Honestly, I think the team is ahead of schedule and I do expect some bumps in the road and some detours along the way, but I say let the plan play out.
 
VF21 said:
I just couldn't hold back any longer. I've taken a lot of flak the past couple of years for defending Joerger and especially Vlade. I promise not to make a habit of it... I may be sharing a bunch of crow recipes, however. ;)
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To be fair my statement about Vlade was made after Vlade appeared to have completely struck out in Free Agency. At the time Bjelica had reportedly signed with Philly and Yogi with Dallas. I didn’t know flipping was a thing in the NBA. This team would not be anywhere as good without Beli and Yogi.

But I will happily eat some crow especially if Vlade can finally sign a big wing in free agency next summer.
 
Many on this board have had faith in this style of ball the entire time. As for Vlade I think he's done a good job assembling talent outside of some of his previous FA moves and draft picks here and there and for the most part figured it was how they were used that was the main issue. I've respected some of the development going on with Joerger and his staff. It's just nice to see things making sense on the court finally. If and when it starts to look like a backbone is being developed offensively then I'm even OK with him working in more high post horn sets here and there to see if it's worth exploring further. But make no mistake, they were teetering on the edge with that other system being forced down their throats. Was it all a plan to push things to the edge? If it was, it was genius.
 
Well I like Vlade but many of his decisions I hated. I was all for getting rid of Cousins as I saw a talented player who I really felt didn’t do it for me.
He missed to many games and I was worried what happened finally happened. Sorry to see him get hurt but we would be in a worse place today with out the trade.

Nothing against Buddy but he was not what I envisioned of what we should of received for a all star player and Olympic player. A fire sale is what we had but I felt very happy he was gone and after watching DeMarcus get a T the other night just reinforced my thinking. Thank you Vlade

But boy he made some dumb draft picks and pretty much struck out other than that last two years and some of the trades I think we did well.

As for our coach after what I have seen so far this year I hope that he felt he had no real choice with the cards he was dealt and now feels he has a direction.

We still get no respect from most anyone in the media just look at the power rankings and when watching most in the sports media explain how the 3 teams we beat did wrong and not what we have done.

Nothing will change until we start winning and I truly hope we do so to the point at least teams don’t have us circled for A automatic win.
 
You weren't wrong VF. Neither were the people who defended him mainly because his story wouldn't be written until this year and even then it was a process. It is starting to take shape now tho and the beat part is there is a future ahead of this team. I'm honestly really glad they got off to this start as I do believe Vlade and Dave deserve the chance to see if it works. I do fear changes would have been made if they started out like the Cavs. Maybe not this quickly. But sooner rather than later.
 
ParniValjak said:
Precisely what it was about. People also don’t realize how much it helped Fox’s development...just compare Fox in half court this season compared to last. Its a huge improvement and that is in no small part due to his experience in that offense last season. I said at the time, it was about development and drilling fundamentals and drilling in that competitive, grit and grind attitude into these kids. See how they dig in these days when the game is on the line? Those are the shoots from the seeds planted last season.
Click to expand...

And the same process appears to be going on with Bagley. I expect a big jump (no pun intended) from Bagley next year, just like we're seeing from Fox this year.
 
I’ve always thought Joerger was a good coach. I may have questioned some of his scheme, and his trying to win in draft pick years, but have always liked his tough, energetic approach.

As traditionally a Vlade detractor I can say that as the season has went on I’ve found his offseason moves more prudent than I did in the offseason, to his credit. I’m becoming more at peace with the Bagley pick. LaVine proving me wrong, so far. Yogi/Bjelica look good.
 
Kangztillidie said:
I think you might be captain and crew of that boat.
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:
You can be a Kings fan, happy for wins, and think the Kings should have taken someone else with the #2 pick. I'm sure there are more then a few who agree. I hope I am wrong, but I dont think I am.
 
Even Vlade’s big signing, that everyone was happy got matched, in Zach is doing crazy good. In retrospect Vlade deserves an A-plus this off season. Maybe one of the mods can create a grading poll about the King’s offseason the off season
 
AleksandarN said:
Even Vlade’s big signing, that everyone was happy got matched, in Zach is doing crazy good. In retrospect Vlade deserves an A-plus this off season. Maybe one of the mods can create a grading poll about the King’s offseason the off season
Click to expand...

Why don't you if you want to see one?
 
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