Still defending Vlade? (split from game thread)
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It hasn’t even been a full 2 seasons. Doncic hasn’t even taken Dallas to the playoffs. Malone has for Denver and IT has for Boston. No one knows for sure what the future brings. Tyreke was a rookie of the year and steph almost didn’t get an extension with the warriors. I wouldn’t speak in absolutes. But I guess you are the king of hot takes around here 
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Wait a minute. So if Denver is doing well, Malone has nothing to do with it. But If Boston is doing well, it’s all brad Stevens? I mean I guess that makes sense. I know you didn’t make the first statement but someone on your side of the debate did. Just find it kind of funny. I might be in the minority but I would rather have 2 prime multiple all stars and a good coach over Luka who hasn’t even made a playoff yet. If you are going off potential maybe he will exceed them but you never know the future. Look at porzigis who was a “unicorn”. But I doubt I’m in the minority when statements like PDA > Vlade are just not true. Anyways this might be going off topic so we will have to agree to disagree before this thread gets shut down.
Not drafting Luka is going to go down as one of the NBA’s ALL-TIME blunders. PDA made a lot of very bad moves. But a top-5 all time screw up makes Vlade worse by default in my opinion. I’d rather take consistently bad than consistently bad (because Vlade has also been consistently bad even if you take away “The pick”) with one of the worst mistakes of all time thrown in.
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13 years and likely this year without a post season appearance. One of the few times in history fate actually smiled on this franchise to give it a glimmer of hope and Vlade absolutely blew it. Mark my words this team will not the playoffs until he is fired. We need a GM who can actually draft. How many of his previous draft picks will be with the team after this season??? Disgusting!
For one every pg that’s been plugged into Stevens system has looked like an all star, hell Terry Rozier got paid off of Stevens system. Cousins wasn’t a winning player it seems until he learned to late and maybe was a byproduct of the trade to NO. Malone is a very good coach but I’m taking a top 5 player plus an average coach over a great coach and a player like cousins and a replaceable PG like IT.
There are also quite a lot of people that have been saying in here that you shouldnt pay a lot for a center unless hes an all star level guy. Thats because every year there are guys you can get good enough production from for very little money. Holmes is a good example. Dedmond is fine if you pay him under 8mil/year, 13 is a big overpay considering hes an average center at best.
Market is oversaturated with centers. Just identify what type of guy fits your scheme and you can get a solid guy for very cheap. You can always get guys like Holmes or Baynes for very cheap but if you give a multi-year 13mil/year to a replacement level guy like Dedmon, you have a negative value contract in your hands.
Vlade made one of the worst trades in this decade, passed on Luka in the draft when he was the obvious pick, drafted Papa G thats out of the league, drafted WCS at 6 that is a replacement level center after four years in the league, didint get any additional high value assets during rebuild and instead has given horrible contracts to non contributing vets. You can easily make a case that Vlade has been at least as bad as PDA
Market is oversaturated with centers. Just identify what type of guy fits your scheme and you can get a solid guy for very cheap. You can always get guys like Holmes or Baynes for very cheap but if you give a multi-year 13mil/year to a replacement level guy like Dedmon, you have a negative value contract in your hands.
Vlade made one of the worst trades in this decade, passed on Luka in the draft when he was the obvious pick, drafted Papa G thats out of the league, drafted WCS at 6 that is a replacement level center after four years in the league, didint get any additional high value assets during rebuild and instead has given horrible contracts to non contributing vets. You can easily make a case that Vlade has been at least as bad as PDA
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it’s not just passing on Luka. That was a very good and very deep draft. Yes, Bagley has immense physical tools. But Bagley as a big that can’t play defense, can’t set screens and can’t shoot has the real possibility of being a bust. On most NBA teams, Bagley would be on the bench.
Vlade passed on Luka yes, he also passed on: JJJ, Trey Young, SGA,
other players also looking good: Porter Jr, Carter, Robinson.
Vlade might have the honor of the worst pick since Darko Milicic.
Vlade passed on Luka yes, he also passed on: JJJ, Trey Young, SGA,
other players also looking good: Porter Jr, Carter, Robinson.
Vlade might have the honor of the worst pick since Darko Milicic.
There's no way of knowing now, but I think Dedmon would have been a nice fit for Coach Joerger's system. He hasn't looked very good this season in his limited opportunities but a lot of guys on this team have seen their production decline under Coach Walton's watch. He's also not the only guy visibly (and audibly) frustrated with his role on the team. After his whiplash banishment from the core rotation just a couple of weeks into the season and losing the starting spot he signed to play, his trade demand really just amounts to "I don't want to sit on the bench for 3 years so maybe it'd be better for everyone if we move on".
Which is to say... I liked the fit with Dedmon based on what we saw last season. This season we've been a completely different team so I'm not sure what conclusions we can draw from that other than maybe we should give the "Head Coach and GM" thing a try whenever we finish playing out the rest of the Vlade/Walton Era so we'd at least be targeting players who will make the rotation.
Which is to say... I liked the fit with Dedmon based on what we saw last season. This season we've been a completely different team so I'm not sure what conclusions we can draw from that other than maybe we should give the "Head Coach and GM" thing a try whenever we finish playing out the rest of the Vlade/Walton Era so we'd at least be targeting players who will make the rotation.
The undervalue of a 20-year-old Bagley who hasn't played a full season worth of games yet here is pretty astonishing. I mean, Darko is thought of as a terrible pick not only because the next three players had great to incredible careers but also because he turned out to have basically no basketball skill at all. The lens one has to look through to see Bagley as having anything remotely resembling "basically no basketball skill at all" is incredibly distorted.
It's also pretty hilarious that the overwhelming consensus on this board prior to the 2018 draft was that Vlade should get fired for even CONSIDERING Michael Porter Jr. and now he's being listed as a player who is looking better than Bagley on the basis of about 4 good games. I think I just got whiplash.
It's also pretty hilarious that the overwhelming consensus on this board prior to the 2018 draft was that Vlade should get fired for even CONSIDERING Michael Porter Jr. and now he's being listed as a player who is looking better than Bagley on the basis of about 4 good games. I think I just got whiplash.
What other skills does Bags have besides being able to leap twice in a single bound and score with his right hand tied behind his back? I guess he can block a shot here and there, and he is fast for a tall guy, but at #2? Doesn't make any sense when there was a vastly more skilled player available.
Why such a high premium is placed on athleticism is beyond me. What good is it if you can jump to the moon and back, but don't have the natural skills necessary to succeed? The players with the most skills have always trumped players with supreme athleticism. And if you have a player with both, then you may have a Michael Jordan on your hands. Heck, most superstars have a good portion of each to begin with.
Why such a high premium is placed on athleticism is beyond me. What good is it if you can jump to the moon and back, but don't have the natural skills necessary to succeed? The players with the most skills have always trumped players with supreme athleticism. And if you have a player with both, then you may have a Michael Jordan on your hands. Heck, most superstars have a good portion of each to begin with.
I guess the question is how much of what we have seen is Walton's "system". The team has been decimated by injury in a way that I can't really recall even in all the "we're cursed!" years. Yes, none of them seem long term, but at this point Bagley's starting to become very concerning even without the shadow of you know who lingering.
I'm extremely disappointed but I'm pretty hesitant to make any major moves based on everything that has happened this season.
I'm extremely disappointed but I'm pretty hesitant to make any major moves based on everything that has happened this season.
so you notice I said since Darko not as bad as Darko. And I would add Nate Duncan already rated it as the worst draft pick of the past century so I’m not sitting out on some limb by myself.
I also said Bagley has a real possibility to be a bust not that he was at 20. He has to learn defense and he has to learn to shoot. I actually was pro Bagley and anti Doncic at the draft so my comments aren’t a told you so comment. But I assumed we would see Bagley taking a leap this year if only from working in his game with professional coaches. We have not seen that. If anything his game has regressed.
I also said Bagley has a real possibility to be a bust not that he was at 20. He has to learn defense and he has to learn to shoot. I actually was pro Bagley and anti Doncic at the draft so my comments aren’t a told you so comment. But I assumed we would see Bagley taking a leap this year if only from working in his game with professional coaches. We have not seen that. If anything his game has regressed.
let’s be clear, I wasn’t saying draft Porter Jr. I even put myself in the boat with Vlade. But Porter Jr is having a better year than Bagley this year.
He has played 32 games +.05 Net Rating with an 11.5 PIE. On a per 36 he averages 20.1 ppg shooting 40% from 3
Bagley has played 12 games -12.6 Net Rating with a 9.5 PIE. On a per 36 he averages 20.7 ppg shooting 19% from 3
He has played 32 games +.05 Net Rating with an 11.5 PIE. On a per 36 he averages 20.1 ppg shooting 40% from 3
Bagley has played 12 games -12.6 Net Rating with a 9.5 PIE. On a per 36 he averages 20.7 ppg shooting 19% from 3
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I’m right there with you. His continued utter lack of a right hand is alarming. I mean, he can’t even finish around the rim with right-handed layups. It’s bad. He gets absolutely stuffed at the rim about twice a game (when he actually plays) because everyone can sit on his left hand and wait. It’s embarrassing. Last night, he could have yammed on Gobert with his right hand on a drive. Instead, he showed Gobert the ball by switching back to his left and got stuffed so hard he fell down. What are you working on in the summer where you still can’t make right-handed layups or dunks?