Spencer Hawes shows a glimmer of hope for some...but not others

[Nikefutbolero]

Well Spencer only played for 8 minutes this game, and grabbed 2 rebounds in his stint. He was pretty effective, and showed an enthusiasm and toughness that has been lacking from his game recently.

Wrong. He looked lost again on defense. He was NOT effective in any way. All he had was a nice dunk. Then he hesitates on that open jumper he had and does a stupid slow move that turns into a travel. He didn't show anything and should stay on the bench. This post shows how bad he really is. ONE dunk and now people are saying he had a good game? HA

 

[VF21]

Wrong. He looked lost again on defense. He was NOT effective in any way. All he had was a nice dunk. Then he hesitates on that open jumper he had and does a stupid slow move that turns into a travel. He didn't show anything and should stay on the bench. This post shows how bad he really is. ONE dunk and now people are saying he had a good game? HA

Wrong right back at you. Look at Bricklayer's grades. He's about as impartial on this as anyone here...and his comments have a lot more relevance than your "NOT effective in any way."

If you're gonna criticize the guy unmercifully, you also have to be willing to give him the occasional pat on the back. Otherwise, you just look like you've got some kind of personal vendetta against him.

 

[reid1boys]

I havent slammed Spencer ever on this board. I have been a big supporter of his. When i sat down to watch the game last night, I didnt hear any of the pregame comments and had no idea Spencer was not starting this game.

When I saw the lineup, I was very happy, and this is coming from a Spencer supporter. He just did nothing the night before against Portland, and he did very little last night.

I deleted the game from last night, or I was about to sit down and watch the entire 8 minutes that Spencer played. I know on one occasion I remember him getting backed down and dominated.

I already asked what was it he did to create some spark last night and nobody replied.

he had 1 dunk, and 2 little boards. Again, were those boards in traffic and battling against someone, or were they 2 boards that dropped in his lap?

You probably wont find a post from me prior to this week where I ever criticized Spencer, but 7 footers getting 3 or 4 boards in 25 minutes is terrible.

Heck, he doesnt even hit the outside shot this year. Just not happy with Spencer, and just because some of you said he was productive doesnt make it so.

 

[VF21]

It's pretty obvious we disagree...and that's cool. Since you've deleted the game and cannot go back and watch again, you're going to stick to your opinion and since I've now watched the game three times, I'm certainly going to stick to mine.

No big.

 

[Nikefutbolero]

Wrong right back at you. Look at Bricklayer's grades. He's about as impartial on this as anyone here...and his comments have a lot more relevance than your "NOT effective in any way."

If you're gonna criticize the guy unmercifully, you also have to be willing to give him the occasional pat on the back. Otherwise, you just look like you've got some kind of personal vendetta against him.

I'm sorry but my opinions are based on what I see and not on what some person on an internet message board says. Spencer did NOTHING yesterday. I'm supposed to pat him on the back because he has one dunk? Really? Sorry but that's the type of production I'm going to applaud by anybody on this team.

 

[vikinginferno]

Yeah I gotta agree with reidboys and nikefutbolero here. "What a difference a day makes"? That makes it look like he had some sort of revival or something. The credit of an open dunk shouldn't go to the dunker, but to the man who got him open and passed him the ball. On D, he seemed to be largely his regular self. He probably played better than against Portland (which was one of his worst games ever) and that really isn't hard to do.

 

[Nikefutbolero]

Yeah I gotta agree with reidboys and nikefutbolero here. "What a difference a day makes"? That makes it look like he had some sort of revival or something. The credit of an open dunk shouldn't go to the dunker, but to the man who got him open and passed him the ball. On D, he seemed to be largely his regular self. He probably played better than against Portland (which was one of his worst games ever) and that really isn't hard to do.

It's just sad that fans are now applauding his play when he did absolutely nothing other than the dunk. You could have sworn by the title of this thread that Spencer had a 25/8/8 game. Fans shouldn't accept mediocrity.

 

[VF21]

It's just sad that fans are now applauding his play when he did absolutely nothing other than the dunk. You could have sworn by the title of this thread that Spencer had a 25/8/8 game. Fans shouldn't accept mediocrity.

I won't disagree with that...and I won't disagree that I may have used poor judgment in deciding what title to put on the thread when I split it out from the other one.

But, having said that, I don't think fans should be so quick to condemn and so unwilling to allow someone a chance to redeem themselves.

EDIT: I've changed the title of the thread.

 

[PoundForPound]

spence played alright.... tonight.... he needs to stay on the bench and we STILL NEED A REAL 5!!!

CO-SIGN.

God, I'm tired of holding my breath every time he has the ball.

 

[Prince_XY]

Wrong. He looked lost again on defense. He was NOT effective in any way. All he had was a nice dunk. Then he hesitates on that open jumper he had and does a stupid slow move that turns into a travel. He didn't show anything and should stay on the bench. This post shows how bad he really is. ONE dunk and now people are saying he had a good game? HA

Right.

Hawes needs to show more if we want this team to accomplish more. There is no excuse. He is a 7-footer and with 2 years of experience in his belt. At least by now, he should be showing good fundamental skills in defense in a more consistent basis and not look like a puppy getting distracted by whoever is dribbling the ball. Hawes looks so stupid leaving his man free prematurely whenever he sees somebody with the ball seemingly headed towards the rim.

 

[SCKingsfan]

What I appreciated about Spencer's 8 minutes is that he chose not to shoot a few 17 footers that he certainly could have (although he seemed almost uncomfortable in passing them up). He gets the soft title because taking that shot is what he always seems to choose to do, and he hasn't been terribly effective at it this year. And I don't want our 7 ft center trying to shoot himself out of a slump by launching up 17+ ft shots; my feeling is that Westphal said something to that effect, too, or maybe the big guy just figured it out. If he is going to find a place for himself on this team, it's going be by being agressive on the boards and going after loose balls, and if he is going to have any offense impact at this point it needs to be by posting up, backing people down, and going to the rim, not backing down for a 13ft off-balance hook shot. the truth is, we have enough people to score without him shooting the ball at all, which I would recomment at least until he figures our how he can be a productive scorer within our offense. And of course, as long as he remains the bullfighters red cloth on D, he's only going to see limited minutes anyway. I'm hoping Westphal will remain consistent on that.

 

[gmcfly]

What do people want from a 21 year old with two and a half years of experience? I've been reading all the posts and you'd think people expect him to be an all-star center. Hawes willl continue to have up and down games. Deal with it and be resonable about it. Do the Kings have a center better them him? Let him grow with others. Jason Thompson has had many sub par games this season. I don't see people ripping him.

 

[reid1boys]

JT is avg 15pts, 9 brds, and shooting 51% from the floor. His up games must be really good to cover up for his down games.

jason has been pretty darn consistent this season.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

What do people want from a 21 year old with two and a half years of experience? I've been reading all the posts and you'd think people expect him to be an all-star center. Hawes willl continue to have up and down games. Deal with it and be resonable about it. Do the Kings have a center better them him? Let him grow with others. Jason Thompson has had many sub par games this season. I don't see people ripping him.

I expect him to put in the work in the offseason so that it doesn't feel like we're starting over with him every year. JT makes mistakes but it isn't due to lack of effort. Hawes may never be a lockdown defender but he has the physical tools to at least contribute. Unfortunately it seems the only motivation is to bench him at this point. We need to get someone in here to challenge him for the spot.

 

[Showtime]

Remember, many on this forum wanted Beno moved asap last season.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Coming off the bench is the right thing for Spencer right now. Bench players know the only way they get more minutes is to play hard specifically on defense. Having him come of the bench improves our deep bench without hurting our starting squad.

 

[Rookie]

I'm not sure about improving our bench because as of right now our bench are the toughest bunch in the league. Atleast to me.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Remember, many on this forum wanted Beno moved asap last season.

Agreed...and I for the life of me cant expain what's going on with Spencer right now. Ever once and a great while we get a glimpse of what he can do, monster dunks down low, blocking shots from the weak side, great post moves and passing. But for some reason that hasnt trancended into this season, and he has been the one big question mark even with our teams successes thus far. Where is his head at right now? Who knows...we're not asking him to be Kareem or Duncan, but just to be the best Spencer Hawes he can...thats all.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

I expect him to put in the work in the offseason so that it doesn't feel like we're starting over with him every year. JT makes mistakes but it isn't due to lack of effort. Hawes may never be a lockdown defender but he has the physical tools to at least contribute. Unfortunately it seems the only motivation is to bench him at this point. We need to get someone in here to challenge him for the spot.

The problem with comparing Hawes to JT (and I know you didn't make the original comparison) is that JT is 23 and Hawes is 21. When I was 21, I was an immature college kid who had a couple of impressive roles at school, but also partied a lot, lived in my fraternity and loved making poop jokes. When I was 23, I was successfully leading a nationwide pilot program for a Fortune 300 company, had my own appartment, and still made poop jokes but less frequently. The point is, that's an important gap and it shows not only physically (JT is a specimen this year), but also mentally.

Ironically, Donte Green is the same age as Hawes and everyone is thrilled that he is showing flashes of skill and brilliance, even though he is wildly inconsistent and will make some dunderheaded decisions. However, Hawes does the same and people are ready to ship him off for 30 cents on the dollar. I don't see any reason why we can't view both players through the same lens and just be happy that we have two 21 year old big men who show flashes of brilliance and immense potential, but who are still learning the game and need to grow. They both seem like hard workers and give a lot of effort, so give them time and patience and we can be rewarded 20 fold.

 

[Kingster]

I liked it when he ran over the Wizard guard. He should have carte blanche to run over some opposing player at least once a game. Maybe he can start with guards and work his way to forwards, and then finally centers.

Spencer is a reminder of the cultural feminization of male gender. He is "nice", just as mom would have him be. Now he needs to get in touch with his male id and start playing "not-nice". Play with a chip on his shoulder, take it personally, hold a grudge, get pissed off, and go out there and whack some people. Then he'll nearly take Noc's head off the next time Noc tries to take that rebound in front of him. At that point, I give Spencer permission to go into Westphal's office with more fire in his eyes than Casspi and demand that he get the ball more in the offense.

 

[Padrino]

I liked it when he ran over the Wizard guard. He should have carte blanche to run over some opposing player at least once a game. Maybe he can start with guards and work his way to forwards, and then finally centers.

Spencer is a reminder of the cultural feminization of male gender. He is "nice", just as mom would have him be. Now he needs to get in touch with his male id and start playing "not-nice". Play with a chip on his shoulder, take it personally, hold a grudge, get pissed off, and go out there and whack some people. Then he'll nearly take Noc's head off the next time Noc tries to take that rebound in front of him. At that point, I give Spencer permission to go into Westphal's office with more fire in his eyes than Casspi and demand that he get the ball more in the offense.

i really don't think spencer hawes is some kinda psych-101 case study...

this isn't a freudian battle he's fighting...

there are just certain players in the nba that are tough enough to demand what they believe is theirs, and there are certain players who lack that killer instinct...

spencer hawes is definitely not a tough guy, but that doesn't mean he can't have a productive career in the nba...

he just has to use his talents...

he can be a dominant post player on the offensive side of the ball if he finds the courage to assert himself...

there aren't a lot of players in the nba with his skill set, and that skill set is hard to guard if its applied properly...

this means that spencer needs to fight down low, though, and drift out to the perimeter A LOT less...

 

[pdxKingsFan]

The problem with comparing Hawes to JT (and I know you didn't make the original comparison) is that JT is 23 and Hawes is 21. When I was 21, I was an immature college kid who had a couple of impressive roles at school, but also partied a lot, lived in my fraternity and loved making poop jokes. When I was 23, I was successfully leading a nationwide pilot program for a Fortune 300 company, had my own appartment, and still made poop jokes but less frequently. The point is, that's an important gap and it shows not only physically (JT is a specimen this year), but also mentally.

I think the maturity between 21 and 23 in your example has as much to do with your environment as your age. The guy gets paid millions to play a game and I'm not going to make excuses for him because he's "just a kid". Hawes has been on the job for a year longer than JT and going to summer camps and staying in game shape during the off season are more a function of doing the job than a measurement of his maturity. I'd argue that JT plays the game with more of a child-like enthusiasm than any kind of seasoned pro that the two extra years give him. Maybe if Hawes acted more like a kid we wouldn't be so hard on him.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

I think the maturity between 21 and 23 in your example has as much to do with your environment as your age. The guy gets paid millions to play a game and I'm not going to make excuses for him because he's "just a kid". Hawes has been on the job for a year longer than JT and going to summer camps and staying in game shape during the off season are more a function of doing the job than a measurement of his maturity. I'd argue that JT plays the game with more of a child-like enthusiasm than any kind of seasoned pro that the two extra years give him. Maybe if Hawes acted more like a kid we wouldn't be so hard on him.

Partially true, but let's keep in mind the criticism with Hawes is not a lack of professionalism. At bits and pieces we have seen and heard suggest he is professional and a hard worker. Beno faced criticism of partying on road trips and not staying in shape last summer. Hawes has always come into camp in better shape and seems to have a clean reputation. The mental maturity to override adversity and to be consistent day in and day out tends to develop as you age. There are exceptions where people either learn or are forced to learn these lessons younger (especially if they have faced a ton of adversity in their youth, which it does not appear Hawes has). Give him time.

Also, forget about JT for a moment. Why is their such enthusiasm for Donte and disdain for Hawes? They are the same age. Have both flashed a ton of promise, but have been inconsistent. With Hawes missing most of his rookie year they even both are realistically in their second seasons. Other than Green being picked later and possibly having lower expectations, what's preventing us from viewing these two with similar standards?

 

[Nighthawk1]

Partially true, but let's keep in mind the criticism with Hawes is not a lack of professionalism. At bits and pieces we have seen and heard suggest he is professional and a hard worker. Beno faced criticism of partying on road trips and not staying in shape last summer. Hawes has always come into camp in better shape and seems to have a clean reputation. The mental maturity to override adversity and to be consistent day in and day out tends to develop as you age. There are exceptions where people either learn or are forced to learn these lessons younger (especially if they have faced a ton of adversity in their youth, which it does not appear Hawes has). Give him time.

Also, forget about JT for a moment. Why is their such enthusiasm for Donte and disdain for Hawes? They are the same age. Have both flashed a ton of promise, but have been inconsistent. With Hawes missing most of his rookie year they even both are realistically in their second seasons. Other than Green being picked later and possibly having lower expectations, what's preventing us from viewing these two with similar standards?

It's pretty simple. Donte has shown great improvement on his weaknesses. He wasn't much of a defender and he was a spot up shooter/chucker when he came in last year. He was benched all last year. He got a shot this year and showed us he's player learning and improving in the right direction. He's still very rough but you can see he tries hard on defense and has dedicated himself into wanting to be a great defender (no one says he ever will 1st team all defense). He drives to the rim now using his athleticism to create better opportunities for himself. In short he's a different player then he was in college and what we saw early in his career here.

Hawes has shown little improvement to our eyes. He still gets pushed around in the post, he still rebounds poorly sometimes. He rarely uses his post and paint moves and when he does we all applaud him for it and hope he finally gets "it". Early this season all he did was chuck 3's compared to last season when he used it more sparingly. I think he's going to be a frustrating work in progress this season for us Kings fans. He can be a really good player but I think he probably needs more time (grow into his frame would help his post D).

Which is why I think personally want him to come off the bench. Less pressure and Coach can work with him as he does the other players when he sees them doing something not up to par.

 

[hardware_failure]

RE: that dunk..

Washington clearly had a lapse in defense on that play. I think Hawes needed that 10' long undefended lane just to get enuff speed to elevate for the dunk vs his more common soft layup attempt.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Partially true, but let's keep in mind the criticism with Hawes is not a lack of professionalism.

Maybe it isn't the best way to word it, but that's been precisely my criticism and why I suspect he seems to regress at the start of each season. He skipped the summer leagues when I understand he was expected at each of the last two. That's unprofessional in my book. Maybe there are better explanations for why he is a slow starter, but we're all just speculating, aren't we?

 

[Big Cuz 15]

one dunk or one nifty pass is not going to cut it. thats like someone putting together a highlight reel of him while ignoring all the flaws.

how many years do we have him before we *have* to make him a contract extension? at this rate, we'r not gonna get much with him destroying his trade value.

 

[VF21]

At this point, I got nuthin' ... No excuses, no "yeah but"s, no optimism whatsover.

And I'm not gonna even try and hazard any guesses as to why his game is what it is.

All I know, as a usually optimistic Kings fan, is there's something terribly wrong that needs to be fixed. Now.

 

[Showtime]

I will say this again, to any who missed it the first time. I see yet again the "Spencer sucks" comments. And here is my point of view on the matter:

Hawes sucks...if you want him to. Let me illustrate it this way: if you ask Ben Wallace to be a scorer, then he sucks at that job. He's probably the worst big man scorer, so attempting to play that style makes him suck at it.

Spencer sucks if you want him to focus on rebounding and defense. He's physically inferior to big men of similar size. He's not that strong, doesn't establish position well on defense, can't go up strong inside, and isn't going to knock anybody over who is taller than 6'4''. He isn't going to be good at that job, which just so happens to be what this team needs. So why continue to say he sucks at that when we all know he's not that type of player?

Ok, well, what kind of player is he? He's a good passer for a center. He's got a decent shot for a guy his size. He can post up, but only against certain guys. He's primarily a high post/face up player. So in reality, he should be a PF who plays an offensively focused game rather than being asked to be a power center.

So please, stop saying he sucks when he's clearly out of his element. Of course he sucks, because he's just not good at what you want him to be good at.

 

[ElRey]

I will say this again, to any who missed it the first time. I see yet again the "Spencer sucks" comments. And here is my point of view on the matter:

Hawes sucks...if you want him to. Let me illustrate it this way: if you ask Ben Wallace to be a scorer, then he sucks at that job. He's probably the worst big man scorer, so attempting to play that style makes him suck at it.

Spencer sucks if you want him to focus on rebounding and defense. He's physically inferior to big men of similar size. He's not that strong, doesn't establish position well on defense, can't go up strong inside, and isn't going to knock anybody over who is taller than 6'4''. He isn't going to be good at that job, which just so happens to be what this team needs. So why continue to say he sucks at that when we all know he's not that type of player?

Ok, well, what kind of player is he? He's a good passer for a center. He's got a decent shot for a guy his size. He can post up, but only against certain guys. He's primarily a high post/face up player. So in reality, he should be a PF who plays an offensively focused game rather than being asked to be a power center.

So please, stop saying he sucks when he's clearly out of his element. Of course he sucks, because he's just not good at what you want him to be good at.

Problem is he's not good even on the "good" things you mentioned about him ie passing and scoring. He hasn't hit his jumpshot consistently and he hasn't been able to finish when Tyreke sets him up with close shots.