So, which is the expansion team?

[LMM]

http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/basketball/kings/story/12495905p-13351625c.html

So, which is the expansion team?

The short-handed Kings play sloppily and lethargically in a loss to the first-year Bobcats.

By Martin McNeal -- Bee Staff Writer
Published 2:15 am PST Wednesday, March 2, 2005

CHARLOTTE, N.C. - Games against expansion teams, such as the Charlotte Bobcats, usually are chalked up as victories.



Not so fast, Sherlock.



The undermanned, error-prone Kings were outplayed by the Bobcats in virtually every category and lost 94-87 Tuesday night at Charlotte Coliseum.

Still regrouping after last week's major trade with the Philadelphia 76ers, the Kings (36-22) were missing center Brad Miller and forwards Peja Stojakovic and Darius Songaila because of injuries. Compounding their absence were 23 turnovers that led to 25 points, only 10 points from a depleted bench and a meager 12 assists.

Certainly, Charlotte (12-42) deserves some credit but not much. The Kings were extremely careless with their ballhandling, especially during the first three quarters, when they committed 19 turnovers.

Entering Tuesday, the Kings were averaging an NBA-high 25 assists and just 13.4 turnovers, second-best in the league.

"We played awful," said Kings coach Rick Adelman, whose starting backcourt of Mike Bibby and Cuttino Mobley combined for 14 turnovers. "I can't remember the last time we had 12 assists and 23 turnovers. We just didn't care of the basketball, and we didn't have any energy."

Only once this season have the Kings had a turnover-assist ratio as bad as Tuesday's - eight assists and 17 turnovers in a 103-73 home loss to the San Antonio Spurs on Jan. 23.

The Kings' 12 assists were their second-fewest this season. Their 23 turnovers were their second-most, behind 24 in a 97-92 overtime road victory over the Indiana Pacers on Dec. 11.

Complicating matters for the Kings was the fact their starting lineup had four players - forwards Corliss Williamson and Kenny Thomas, center Brian Skinner and Mobley - who weren't with the team at the start of 2005. Williamson, Thomas and Skinner came in last Wednesday's deal with the 76ers involving Chris Webber, and Mobley arrived in a Jan. 10 trade with the Orlando Magic, which hosts the Kings tonight.

The Bobcats have also endured their share of injuries with a far less talented roster than the Kings'.

"I empathize with them," Charlotte coach Bernie Bickerstaff said, "and I know how difficult that can be, especially when you consider how long they have been out on the road. But I thought we did a good job of making them work hard for their shots."

Williamson led the Kings with 18 points but made five turnovers. Mobley scored 17 points to go with six turnovers. Bibby might have played his worst game as a King, scoring 14 points, shooting 4 of 15 from the field and committing eight turnovers.

"It was just one of those nights for me when nothing went right," Bibby said.

The Kings trailed by double digits for most of the final three quarters. They came as close as 77-72 with 7:21 to play, but former Kings swingman Gerald Wallace scored the next two baskets on a dunk and lay-in to keep his old team at bay.

Wallace, who joined Charlotte in the expansion draft, had 16 points, seven rebounds and a game-high five steals in his first game against the Kings. He missed the teams' first meeting Dec. 7 because of a concussion. "I was excited," Wallace said. "But I think a lot of the excitement was gone because a lot of the guys I played with - like Brad, Darius, Peja and Bobby (Jackson) - didn't play."

 

[EmKingsFan4]

I'm sorry but I find this article a little bit unfair. Maybe if we had all of our players out there on the floor and still played sloppily, that would be one thing. But we practically had our whole starting lineup out of the game...add in the fact that we're trying to implement 3 brand new players into our system of play and there is expected to be a transition period, right? Or maybe I'm being too much of a softie..

 

[PFFFT!!]

I was dissapointed in the loss, but like I had mentioned in another thread earlier, Adelman knows his 3 new guys now and what roles they have. I think the fans got to know them now and what they can bring. These guys aren't "great", but they are good and best of all "solid". You guys wanted rebounds? You got it with Thomas and Skinner. You guys wanted a solid backup for Peja? You got it in Corliss. You wanted athletic? You have it in all three guys. A post banger? Corliss. Thanks Petrie!! Now its Adelman's turn to figure out what to do with the pieces in the "right" way.

 

[gman23]

Well said PFFFT!!

 

[Bricklayer]

I was dissapointed in the loss, but like I had mentioned in another thread earlier, Adelman knows his 3 new guys now and what roles they have. I think the fans got to know them now and what they can bring. These guys aren't "great", but they are good and best of all "solid". You guys wanted rebounds? You got it with Thomas and Skinner. You guys wanted a solid backup for Peja? You got it in Corliss. You wanted athletic? You have it in all three guys. A post banger? Corliss. Thanks Petrie!! Now its Adelman's turn to figure out what to do with the pieces in the "right" way.

Mentioned before though, whne Brad and Peja return to action, they will return to pklaying 3/4 of the game. Then what happens to our newfound post play/toughness? Its sitting over on the bench. Backups are nice, but as long as our starters are what they are the backups are only the seasoning -- the main course remains what it has been.

 

[quick dog]

If Bibby would have had just a sub-par game, the Kings would have won easily. He double-bogied last night. And I don't golf.

You guys would complain if you were hung with a new rope.

 

[kperica]

Mentioned before though, whne Brad and Peja return to action, they will return to pklaying 3/4 of the game. Then what happens to our newfound post play/toughness? Its sitting over on the bench. Backups are nice, but as long as our starters are what they are the backups are only the seasoning -- the main course remains what it has been.

No - Webber's gone. With him gone both our defense and offense will have a whole new dynamic.
Especially considering:
1) on offense he had the ball quite a bit, for better or worse as your opinion may be...
2) his transition defense was poor...this will make the biggest difference. That hurt us a lot.
3) we have more options at the 4 spot. Before, we could always count having to help Webb against quick/athletic 4's, peja against athletic 3's, and Mike against pretty much everyone. Now, in at least one of those slots, we have the option of a number of the different guys - less mistmatches.
4) a lot of "toughness" issues are actually mismatches were a guy seems like he's getting outworked but is just outmatched
5) Webber did not play in the post frequently
This team will be tougher and upgraded in the ways mentioned above even when Peja/Brad return.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Be interesting to see how Peja fits in with the new dynamic. Webb playing in the high post, as opposed to the low, really opened up the lane for cutters. (Same thing last year when it was Vlade running the offense) Lot's of one on one play right now, not really Peja's strong suit. Hopefully, Bibby and Brad will be able to get him involved, as we don't really have any other set-up guys.

 

[Bricklayer]

No - Webber's gone. With him gone both our defense and offense will have a whole new dynamic.
Especially considering:
1) on offense he had the ball quite a bit, for better or worse as your opinion may be...
2) his transition defense was poor...this will make the biggest difference. That hurt us a lot.
3) we have more options at the 4 spot. Before, we could always count having to help Webb against quick/athletic 4's, peja against athletic 3's, and Mike against pretty much everyone. Now, in at least one of those slots, we have the option of a number of the different guys - less mistmatches.
4) a lot of "toughness" issues are actually mismatches were a guy seems like he's getting outworked but is just outmatched
5) Webber did not play in the post frequently
This team will be tougher and upgraded in the ways mentioned above even when Peja/Brad return.

1) we lost a bunch of assists and are putting more pressue on Mike
2) true. Then again, so was everybody else's. Everybody else will be back.
3) our primary PF is now very small -- matchup problems all his own against tall players. Our backup is the same guy. Corliss has never been brought in for defensive purposes at PF in his life, and Skinner coul dhelp, but is unlikely ot get more than a handful of minutes with the logjam at the position
4) all of the mismatches are still there. Peja and Brad are no less mismatched than they were bfore. KT matches better wiht quickness, but worse against size.
5) Neither does KT -- too small to post most PFs (in fact I would be willing to wager that Webber actually posts more than our new starting PF). Corliss is a SF posting specialist, but is only going to get 10-12 minutes behind Peja to do it, and struggles to post bigger men. Skinner has looked solid in the post, although he scares nobody. But again, he's only got 10-12 minutes behind Brad.

And that is the point you missed. Skinner and Corliss may be tough. They may post. But they are likely small-minute backups behind major-minute starters. For 3/4 of the game, and down the stretch of every game, the only change in our lineup is likely to be a 6'7" active but undersized PF for a 6'9" multitalented PF. For 3/4 of the game, we are largely the same team. Brad is still slow. Peja is stil soft. Mike is still a poor defender. Mobley is still small (and add KF to the small brigade now too). Very skilled crew even after the trade. But that's still very much the focus.

 

[kperica]

1) we lost a bunch of assists and are putting more pressue on Mike

That's what I thought at first too. But hopefully one of the benefits of the trade will be to open our offense back up, limiting Mike's role. Although he's played only a few games, Webb's limited assists in Philly will show that he's not so much an amazing passer but that our system works and that he had the ball a lot. It will work even better now (again, hopefully), as long as the new guys committ.

2) true. Then again, so was everybody else's. Everybody else will be back.

Again, no, not everyone will be back. Although they split time, Songalia, Thomas, and Skinner are all better transition players than Webb, and thus we will improve, which is soooooooo important with the style Pheonix and seattle play.

3) our primary PF is now very small -- matchup problems all his own against tall players. Our backup is the same guy. Corliss has never been brought in for defensive purposes at PF in his life, and Skinner coul dhelp, but is unlikely ot get more than a handful of minutes with the logjam at the position
4) all of the mismatches are still there. Peja and Brad are no less mismatched than they were bfore. KT matches better wiht quickness, but worse against size.

Let me adress these two together, along with your ending statement. Although Thomas and Skinner are small, they both play "bigger than their height" because of athletiscism and wingspan. Webbers lack of lift made him play smaller than his height on defense (although his rebounding did not suffer cause he has long arms and great hands). Furthermore, I would love it if their height is coming into the equation: that means guys like Duncan are shooting over them, rather than going around for uncontested layups., which has been one of our problems.

5) Neither does KT -- too small to post most PFs (in fact I would be willing to wager that Webber actually posts more than our new starting PF). Corliss is a SF posting specialist, but is only going to get 10-12 minutes behind Peja to do it, and struggles to post bigger men. Skinner has looked solid in the post, although he scares nobody. But again, he's only got 10-12 minutes behind Brad.

Who says we need a dominant post game?
a) Scoring points has never been a problem for us.
b) Which NBA teams have a legit post game? Miami, San Antonio? Plenty of teams win w/o one, as we did early this year and last.
c) Brad has been working on his post game, I've noticed. Nice to see he's comitted to making improvements.
d) Peja needs to add a post-up game to his arsenal to explot mismatches. Seems a little silly at first, but I feel it would be effective.

And that is the point you missed. Skinner and Corliss may be tough. They may post. But they are likely small-minute backups behind major-minute starters. For 3/4 of the game, and down the stretch of every game, the only change in our lineup is likely to be a 6'7" active but undersized PF for a 6'9" multitalented PF. For 3/4 of the game, we are largely the same team. Brad is still slow. Peja is stil soft. Mike is still a poor defender. Mobley is still small (and add KF to the small brigade now too). Very skilled crew even after the trade. But that's still very much the focus.

1/5 of our team is entirely new, even in terms of minutes played. I think we've improved in the areas I mentioned above. I'm not saying we're the Detroit Pistons because of this trade; but I'm saying I hope we've improved enougb to get over the hump.

 

[Bricklayer]

To get over what hump? I certainly hope you don't mean the championship hump, because that's kind of a mean-spirited joke.

BTW, KT does NOT play bigger than his size on defense, and his wingspan is not terribly impressive. He's a good hustler, but he's totally irrelevant when trying to shut down the middle against anybody. The Sixers sucked on defense (giving up 100ppg) this year with these same players we have now playing major roles (minus Skinner). They aren't the answer. Certainly Skinner in this last game is the first time anybody has payed even remotely more attention to us on defense than anybody has been all season -- 106ppg since the trade. And that's with our hustlers getting major minutes. When our regulars are back, what really our our odds that regulars: 100ppg on defense; hustlers: 100ppg on defense, but combine the two and you get...significantly less?

People try to make these players out to be what they are not, I think in some sort of desperate search for hope. These players were not SELECTED by Geoff, not if his story is true. If the Sixers really were the only suitor, and given that we got none of their young players who he just had to have asked about, these three guys were about the only people on their roster who matched salaries and played the same positon. All have something to offer. All are quality NBA players. None are the guys you pick first if you're trying to make a huge impact on the defensive/rebounding side of the floor and you have the pick of the litter. They all do respectably on that side of the floor themselves, they are not the problems although Corliss and KT can be lit up depending on matchups. But critically none of them are impact defenders/rebounders with the potential to cover up the weaknesses of the players around them. Which are myriad in our case.

P.S. BTW, trying to imply that Webber is anything but a phenomenal passer is more than faintly ridiculous. Fans or non-fans of his, you will be hard pressed to find any knowledgible basketball fan who will call him anything but one of the best of all time for a big man. But you can't pass without the ball.

 

[Kingsgurl]

That's what I thought at first too. But hopefully one of the benefits of the trade will be to open our offense back up, limiting Mike's role. Although he's played only a few games, Webb's limited assists in Philly will show that he's not so much an amazing passer but that our system works and that he had the ball a lot. It will work even better now (again, hopefully), as long as the new guys committ.

Actually, the 2 games he's played for Philly aside, Webb has always been an exceptional passer for a big man. Same thing with Vlade. That talent, or that strength, to their game was already there. Brad, too, was a 'good' passer for his size in Indiana, although he is even better in this system, he isn't quite on the same level as Vlade or even Chris.
I'm not sure I am following WHO you think is going to take the load of Mike as ball distributor? Brad can some, but Brad was already here, we have still lost ball handling/distribution from our big rotation any way you try to slice it.

 

[kperica]

I'm not sure I am following WHO you think is going to take the load of Mike as ball distributor? Brad can some, but Brad was already here, we have still lost ball handling/distribution from our big rotation any way you try to slice it.

No one in particular has to replace Webber - that's the whole point. One of my critiques of Webber was that he had the ball in his hands too much. I would like to see motion and passing returned to our offense, what made the Kings great a few years ago. In such a system, no particular person has to "create" - Bibby will handle the ball most, of course, but that's relatively unimportant. Movement, quick, crisp passing, and no central focal point or creator.

 

[kperica]

To get over what hump? I certainly hope you don't mean the championship hump, because that's kind of a mean-spirited joke.

Not a joke...this is kingsfans.com right? Something wrong with thinking we can win a championship? Hey, I hope this year, maybe not, but in the future, yes.

BTW, KT does NOT play bigger than his size on defense, and his wingspan is not terribly impressive. He's a good hustler, but he's totally irrelevant when trying to shut down the middle against anybody. The Sixers sucked on defense (giving up 100ppg) this year with these same players we have now playing major roles (minus Skinner). They aren't the answer. Certainly Skinner in this last game is the first time anybody has payed even remotely more attention to us on defense than anybody has been all season -- 106ppg since the trade. And that's with our hustlers getting major minutes. When our regulars are back, what really our our odds that regulars: 100ppg on defense; hustlers: 100ppg on defense, but combine the two and you get...significantly less?

People try to make these players out to be what they are not, I think in some sort of desperate search for hope. These players were not SELECTED by Geoff, not if his story is true. If the Sixers really were the only suitor, and given that we got none of their young players who he just had to have asked about, these three guys were about the only people on their roster who matched salaries and played the same positon. All have something to offer. All are quality NBA players. None are the guys you pick first if you're trying to make a huge impact on the defensive/rebounding side of the floor and you have the pick of the litter. They all do respectably on that side of the floor themselves, they are not the problems although Corliss and KT can be lit up depending on matchups. But critically none of them are impact defenders/rebounders with the potential to cover up the weaknesses of the players around them. Which are myriad in our case.

I disgree with your assesment of Thomas.
Secondly, I am not saying the Kings are amazing on defense, or in any other respect, because of these guys; I am saying we are better in certain aspects than before. In many ways, I'm paraphrasing many of your arguments back when you were pushing for a Peja trade - essentially: so what if we lose some offense? We need to start hustling, play D, and rebound.
I am also saying that their impact will be significant not because of their individual abilities, but because of the way the dynamic of our game will change. To say it again: open up our offense, remove one of our defensive liabilities and replace it with more flexibility.

P.S. BTW, trying to imply that Webber is anything but a phenomenal passer is more than faintly ridiculous. Fans or non-fans of his, you will be hard pressed to find any knowledgible basketball fan who will call him anything but one of the best of all time for a big man. But you can't pass without the ball.

I actually do not think he is one of the best passing big men "of all time." That's a pretty lofty statement, there; I'm sure you could find plenty of people who would disagree, fans or non-fans, as you say. He's a good passer, with a will to pass and an above-average talent for it. No point arguing, we'll see.

 

[Bricklayer]

I actually do not think he is one of the best passing big men "of all time." That's a pretty lofty statement, there; I'm sure you could find plenty of people who would disagree, fans or non-fans, as you say. He's a good passer, with a will to pass and an above-average talent for it. No point arguing, we'll see.

Above average talent? I hate to break this argument out, but I cannot even imagine any other reason for that statement (yes I can, a silly need to try to downgrade the former player so as to make your contention that the new guys are better a better argument): so here goes -- have you ever played the game, even on the playground? If you have there is simply no way you can not apprecaite the just how amazing the passes that man threw really were. He and Vlade were EASILY the best passing big men of their generation. And from former generations the only players comparable off the top of my head were Arvydas Sabonis, Walton and maybe Wilt back in the day (although truth be told, numbers aside, he made easy passes, not deadly ones. There are good passers who hit the open man, Barlkey was a good passer, so was Mailman, Robinson, Hakeem, in his later years Shaq. Sikma and Daugherty were also good. And then there are magic men able to actually CREATE shots that otherwise do not exist. Webber and Vlade were two of a very elite class of big men in that regard. And no, we don't have to wait on anything. That book has already been written.