So we're gonna run and gun...

[ReinadelosReys]

Run and gun may not be great for winning and championships, but it may suit a rebuild. That style beefs up stats, making players trade value go up. (I hope)

IA. This team is not going to be competing for championships anytime soon. This is about rebuilding, much like it was 8 years ago, granted the Kings were in a much better situation then that they are now (better players, better coach) but we're got to work with what they have and why not have while doing it.

 

[fnordius]

Also, run-and-gun may now win championships. I think it probably would have this year, were it not for the stupidity of Suns players getting suspended for their reaction to Horry's flagrant against Nash. Had those players had a bit more sense, or had the NBA a bit more fondness for justice, the Suns might well have a trophy about now.

 

[Bricklayer]

Also, run-and-gun may now win championships. I think it probably would have this year, were it not for the stupidity of Suns players getting suspended for their reaction to Horry's flagrant against Nash. Had those players had a bit more sense, or had the NBA a bit more fondness for justice, the Suns might well have a trophy about now.

And would still have absolutely no relation to us nor signal any sort of changing of the guard. They are a nearly unique team with Marion in particular, as well as Nash, and still represent nothing in paritular except themselves. You could assemble run n guns teams for the next 50 years and never put together one with those elements.

 

[Jerichoholic]

I believe Theus did mean run and gun, not just uptempo as a result of more defensive stops a la Musselman. If you remember when Rick Pitino took over in Louisville he was asked what his system would be and he said it would be very similar to the run and gun that the Sacramento Kings were running at the time.

Theus said in the press conference that he pretty much mirrors what Pitino does in Louisville and just listening to his interviews I have the impression that he wants to push it, to keep the opposition on its heels at all times. I hope this is the case because even if we're losing at least it will be fun and at least we will be building an identity. We won't be changing it up all season like last year.

 

[Bricklayer]

I believe Theus did mean run and gun, not just uptempo as a result of more defensive stops a la Musselman. If you remember when Rick Pitino took over in Louisville he was asked what his system would be and he said it would be very similar to the run and gun that the Sacramento Kings were running at the time.

Theus said in the press conference that he pretty much mirrors what Pitino does in Louisville and just listening to his interviews I have the impression that he wants to push it, to keep the opposition on its heels at all times. I hope this is the case because even if we're losing at least it will be fun and at least we will be building an identity. We won't be changing it up all season like last year.

If Reggie Theus does one thing like Rick Pitino his NBA career is going to be nasty, short and brutish. Pitino's attempts to import his system were disaster in the NBA.

 

[uptempo-kings]

hey i know this is kind of off subject but why did the kings sign him to a 3yr deal worth 6mil instead of something like a 1yr deal at 2mil??? was it the egos, so was it just reggies terms of service?

 

[PurpleHaze]

If Reggie Theus does one thing like Rick Pitino his NBA career is going to be nasty, short and brutish. Pitino's attempts to import his system were disaster in the NBA.

I disagree that Pitino was a "disaster in the NBA." Sure he might not have been Red Auerbach, but how many coaches ever get to such pinnacle? Pitino's overall record as a head coach in the NBA with New York and Boston stands at 192-220. He entered the league with the Knicks taking them in his first year 1987 to their first division title in almost 20 years recording a 96-81 overall record there. The year before he arrived, the Knicks had won only 24 games. His last five years in Boston were the most frustrating with the New York press taking pleasure in dumping on him as a turncoat and the Boston press wanting nothing less than instant championships as they had become spoiled ala Bird, Auerbach, etc.

 

[Bricklayer]

Holy crap!

Had no idea there even was such a thing as a Pitino apologist.

He coached in the league 6 years, had exactly one +.500 season. I remember that one too\ -- was the year Oakley and Strickland arrived.

 

[PurpleHaze]

hey i know this is kind of off subject but why did the kings sign him to a 3yr deal worth 6mil instead of something like a 1yr deal at 2mil??? was it the egos, so was it just reggies terms of service?

Probably because they had already made that known to to him at some point in the various interviews, calls, etc. Just as they would have probably let Van Gundy and Shaw know what was on the table if selected - at least the range of contract dollars. Remember, Theus had just signed a new long-term deal with NMSU so the King's were competing with them at some level.

 

[Bricklayer]

hey i know this is kind of off subject but why did the kings sign him to a 3yr deal worth 6mil instead of something like a 1yr deal at 2mil??? was it the egos, so was it just reggies terms of service?

I doubt any coach worth having would come for a 1 yr deal. 3 and 6 is about as cheap as you normally see coachign contracts anymore. Its still a helluva committment if he fials inside a year, but otherwise, pretty reasonable on that front at least.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Holy crap!

Had no idea there even was such a thing as a Pitino apologist.

He coached in the league 6 years, had exactly one +.500 season. I remember that one too\ -- was the year Oakley and Strickland arrived.

Nope, just stating a fact that he was not an NBA "disaster" as you put it. Like I said, things turned sour for Pitino when he went to Boston. Maybe if he'd stayed with the Knicks he'd never gone back to being a college coach.

I suppose you're more than eager to dump on Kings Coach Theus - or have you already?

 

[uptempo-kings]

yeah after that muss incident last year, i'm still in a bit of a shock, and i do not want the franchise to head in that direction again.

 

[BawLa]

Run and gun . I know it is probably the best way to go, but run and gun starts from rebounding. And with our size we can only rebound as a team, leaving less guys to break out and run. Plus the last thing we need is Bibby and Artest getting the green light to jack up ill-advised shots. Hopefully a disciplined half-court offense will come with the run and gun style. Hopefully the run and gun just forces other teams to get back defensively leaving less guys for us to compete with for rebounds.

I'm hoping we focus on developing a solid defense too. Sure we would have areas of weakness, but we can fill those holes throughout the course of a rebuild. At the end of last year we had some young talent that showed they can really bring some energy defensively.

 

[Bricklayer]

Nope, just stating a fact that he was not an NBA "disaster" as you put it. Like I said, things turned sour for Pitino when he went to Boston. Maybe if he'd stayed with the Knicks he'd never gone back to being a college coach.

I suppose you're more than eager to dump on Kings Coach Theus - or have you already?

Already have exprssed my doubts about Theus. You will find me quite resistant to PR and cults of personality.

And calling Pitino anything but a disaster in the NBA is just ridiculous. When you are practically chased out of your last stop by villagers with torches and pitchforks, and could not get another coaching job in the NBA if you got down on your knees and begged, it was pretty much a disaster. When all of the above can be said about a guy who is one of the better college coaches (which often just means recruiters) in the last 30 years, it makes it even more stark. Utter, complete, abysmal, burn him in effigy failure. And the players had completely tuned him out by Yr 2. If the organization had not invested so much prestige and money into him, he never would survived into a 4th year. The perfectly mediocre Jim O'Brien had them playing .500 ball the rest of the way, and into the ECF the next year.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Already have exprssed my doubts about Theus. You will find me quitre resistant to PR and cults of personality.

And calling Pitono anything but a disaster in the NBA is jsut ridiculous. When you are practically chased out of your last stop by villagers with torches and pitchforks, and could nto get another coaching job in the NBA if you got down on your knees and begged, it was pretty much a disaster. When all of the above can be said about a guy who is one of the better college coaches (which often jsut means recruiters) in the last 30 years, it makes it even more stark. Utter, complete, abysmal, burn him in effigy failure. And the players had completely tuned him out by Yr 2. If the organization had not invested so much prestige and money into him, he never would survived into a 4th year.

I simply objected to the word "disaster" to characterize Pitino in the NBA. Tark an NBA coaching disaster - yes. As far as "PR and cult of personality" with Theus - that's overboard and overkill as well. He is simply style and substance combined and we'll be seeing it in action over the next few years in Sactown. I'd certainly rather have him at the helm that that "other" cult figure and ultimate NBA vagabond - LB. Plus, the only other viable option at the 11 hour was apparently B. Shaw - what's the big deal there?

 

[ovrush]

I laughed a bit when I read this... anyone else remember "Runnin at ya!" the year we were a slow tedious halfcourt team (was it under Motta this would be even funnier if so)? I have visions of a repeat with our super athletic lineup of Brad Miller/SAR/Bibby... All in all a pretty funny thought those guys running up and down the court~!

 

[ovrush]

I simply objected to the word "disaster" to characterize Pitino in the NBA. Tark an NBA coaching disaster - yes. As far as "PR and cult of personality" with Theus - that's overboard and overkill as well. He is simply style and substance combined and we'll be seeing it in action over the next few years in Sactown. I'd certainly rather have him at the helm that that "other" cult figure and ultimate NBA vagabond - LB. Plus, the only other viable option at the 11 hour was apparently B. Shaw - what's the big deal there?

Well I never paid that much close attention to the Celtics during Pitino's time other than to notice they were bad... but I do on occasion read the Sports Guy on ESPN and he definitely had some Pitino characterizations that I thought made him sound like a "disaster" Im too lazy to go find and link the articles but if this is genuinely a debate the Sports Guy is a big Boston fan and probly has good insight on what type of coach Pitino was. (might be worth reading seeing as how we've seen several quotes saying how influential Pitino's endorsement was in helping land Theuss the job)

 

[jtt]

Have no choice but to run and gun

We have no choice but to run and gun. We won't win next season. We don't have the talent. We at least have to do something to keeps fans from falling asleep. We have to run and gun. If we don't score and play decent defense and always lose, the whole arena will be empty. This should be the starting lineup:
Douby
KMart
Jamison (from trading Ron and Bibby)
Justin Williams
Yi

Just bombs away. Justin can pound the boards and rip it to 1 of the 4 bombers. 3pt are more than 2.

 

[fnordius]

And would still have absolutely no relation to us nor signal any sort of changing of the guard. They are a nearly unique team with Marion in particular, as well as Nash, and still represent nothing in paritular except themselves. You could assemble run n guns teams for the next 50 years and never put together one with those elements.

Well, of course, every team is different, and the best teams more so than most. Webber and Divac were another couple of fairly unique players in a run-and-gun team that arguably came within a bounce or whistle of a championship. We're miles below that level now, and the Western Conference is shaping up to be more brutal than ever, so we've got some years to go. But I don't think run-and-gun is a discredited or refuted style, even at the highest level. Small ball may be, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

 

[Bricklayer]

Well, of course, every team is different, and the best teams more so than most. Webber and Divac were another couple of fairly unique players in a run-and-gun team that arguably came within a bounce or whistle of a championship. We're miles below that level now, and the Western Conference is shaping up to be more brutal than ever, so we've got some years to go. But I don't think run-and-gun is a discredited or refuted style, even at the highest level. Small ball may be, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

This could be a language/meaning issue.

I really wouldn't call our old teams run n gun (well, after the first two years). Run n gun implies a certain laxness in spirit. We were actually, by our prime years, highly disciplined and running one of the most intricate and intellectually demanding offenses in the game. We weren't chuck and ducking. We liked pace, but we could play without it. And at one point had a formidable interior crew well suited for walk it up wars. That may be what Reggie is talking about -- if so, good. But a true run n gun, like Phoenix's system, sacrifices and does not value the very things that you normally have to value in order to win. Defense, boardwork, interior play, the ability to outgrind teams.

 

[Packt]

This is why Brown would've never been hired by the Maloofs, and why Muss was hired by the Maloofs. They want a certain level of entertainment on the floor, even if they talk defense first. Muss was supposedly a defense guy, but coupled with the forced offense, it was a horrible combination.

This team as is, is not a run and gun team. You need a half-court system to check Ron, and to get Bibby/Miller/Thomas shots. Only Martin will excel in a gunning system. You can still run when it's opportune, but you need set plays, especially in the early going. I hope this isn't Theus promising to play a certain style just to appease the owners and seal a job.

 

[Jerichoholic]

If Reggie Theus does one thing like Rick Pitino his NBA career is going to be nasty, short and brutish. Pitino's attempts to import his system were disaster in the NBA.

While college coaches haven't had a great run in the NBA (Pitino's wasn't good either) I think that concern is overblown. There are plenty of NBA assistants and head coaching retreads (that's why they're retreads) that have failed. It's just that the college coaches have a magnifying glass on them all the time.

As far as the system goes, Pitino's Louisville system that was modeled off the old Kings' was implemented after his NBA days. We don't know how that would have gone for him.

 

[RIP miyagi]

i think marin, garcia, and douby could all flourish in a run and gun system, and isn't that what we want to see, potential in our young guys?

 

[fnordius]

i think marin, garcia, and douby could all flourish in a run and gun system, and isn't that what we want to see, potential in our young guys?

I tend to agree, would add Price, and think Williams could keep up reasonably well. It seems to work out best for teams who have enough youngish (hopefully athletic) players to keep a large rotation going so that nobody winds up exhausted.

So far, we have 5 players who match that description, + 1 draft pick, out of 15 roster slots. Geoff has some work to do.

 

[Bricklayer]

i think marin, garcia, and douby could all flourish in a run and gun system, and isn't that what we want to see, potential in our young guys?

There is no real purpose in pumping up our young guys' numbers if its not a winning system. Of course it might be, it might not. But just running to run is playground. Or in some cases meant to entertain the masses and conceal your crappiness.

Now Reggie has virtually no experience at winning in the NBA. Not as a player, and he never even tried as an assistant. So maybe he doesn't know what the system would be to win in this league. But as soon as he figures it out, that's what you would want him to put in. And if it involves pushing the ball and scoring early when you can ala the old Rick systems, then cool. But there is less than no point in just unleashing the kids and letting them run around willy nilly because that's what kids like to do.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Well I never paid that much close attention to the Celtics during Pitino's time other than to notice they were bad... but I do on occasion read the Sports Guy on ESPN and he definitely had some Pitino characterizations that I thought made him sound like a "disaster" Im too lazy to go find and link the articles but if this is genuinely a debate the Sports Guy is a big Boston fan and probly has good insight on what type of coach Pitino was. (might be worth reading seeing as how we've seen several quotes saying how influential Pitino's endorsement was in helping land Theuss the job)

As a Celts fan who lived in Boston during his first season I can tell you it was an unmitigated disaster. I thought he had some bad breaks in NY and with what he did at Kentucky he was ready for another shot. And of course while he ran the team into the ground I convinced myself that someone just needed to take the GM reigns away from him and let him focus on coaching. Until he finally gets whacked and Jim O'Brien who is a proven below average coach took over and actually achieved a moderate degree of success with the same team. In fact both the Kings and the Celts peaked the same year and I was hoping to see my two favorite teams in the Finals together. Didn't happen.

Pitino ball works in college because the guy can get better players in spots 6-12 than most of his opponents and run their opponents ragged. That's nice in a 32 game season where coaches can still check their player's egos. Its a horrible idea in the pros which lead Pitino to go out and trade for his old college players who were stupendously mediocre as pros - yet as pros they also lost any desire to listen to him.

There was absolutely nothing good about his stint with the Celtics except his opening night win over Jordan's Bulls in his first season. It was all down hill from there.