Small Ball??

[Entity]

I know alot of ppl here aren't fans of small ball. But I am seeing so many teams playing like this. It hadicaps the teams they play with a good big. Is this in fact a turning point in the NBA where the Center position is getting pushed out. Everybody counters it. If we go small they go small because their bigs can't run with the smaller guys. Is this the way to neautralize the great bigs in the league?? Just wanting some thoughts on this.

 

[Troy]

I know alot of ppl here aren't fans of small ball. But I am seeing so many teams playing like this. It hadicaps the teams they play with a good big. Is this in fact a turning point in the NBA where the Center position is getting pushed out. Everybody counters it. If we go small they go small because their bigs can't run with the smaller guys. Is this the way to neautralize the great bigs in the league?? Just wanting some thoughts on this.

I think so. Memphis played very good against us, the best team we played yet who played better small ball then us. The Center position is really now a PF with only Yao and Shaq being true centers. I'm all for more athletism and don't like big slow true centers. I much rather have a Camby, KG if he played 5, etc play the 5 then some huge slow giant. I really see this as a turning point and teams are playing smaller and faster which I think is good. At least not super small, SAR is 6' 9", and other convertered centers are near this height or near 7 feet just more athletic and thinner bodied then your big slow traditional center of years ago.

I guess the tweener/hobbit Kings are actually onto something. We cannot be so mad at Adelman last year playing all his 6' 7" guys. Maybe in actuality we started a trend and the perfect height for a basketball player is 6' 7", not too big, not too small, just right. ;-)

 

[Larry89]

I miss tough rugged gigantic battles.

 

[KINGSFAN-FROM-L.A.]

unless your team is consisting of jordan and pippen on the wings, you're are never i repeat never winning a ring in the nba without a true center.

 

[Bricklayer]

Until somebody wins a title with it its just lemmings all wanting to be Phoenix. Until Shaq and Duncan quit winning every title, its just B.S. Until you go into the Finals and don't see what was it -- 5 seven footers AND Zo Mourning, a near HOF center to boot, running aorund slamming in the middle, its just posing without purpose.

Put it this way, Jerry Reynolds thinks it s good idea. That should say all you need to know about the winning merits of the strategy when it actually matters.

 

[Entity]

unless your team is consisting of jordan and pippen on the wings, you're are never i repeat never winning a ring in the nba without a true center.

Historically speaking yes you are exactly right. but it seems to be changing somehow. Speed is domnating the game. Its been said our best lineup is Bibby, Martin, Salmons, Artest, SAR. We are not the only ones. Griz did it Raps did it Philly is doing it now. Webber hasn't played the 4th quarter in the last 2 games because the opposing team went small. Teams have to couter it or their bigs end up getting blown by by all the smaller players. Even reboudning the hustle and speed is getting to rebounds quicker as well.

 

[Entity]

Until somebody wins a title with it its just lemmings all wanting to be Phoenix. Until Shaq and Duncan quit winning every title, its just B.S. Until you go into the Finals and don't see what was it -- 5 seven footers AND Zo Mourning, a near HOF center to boot, running aorund slamming in the middle, its just posing without purpose.




Put it this way, Jerry Reynolds thinks it s good idea. That should say all you need to know about the winning merits of the strategy when it actually matters.

So saying Bill Walton likes it as well isn't much of an upgrade over Jerry huh?

 

[Roman]

Until somebody wins a title with it its just lemmings all wanting to be Phoenix. Until Shaq and Duncan quit winning every title, its just B.S. Until you go into the Finals and don't see what was it -- 5 seven footers AND Zo Mourning, a near HOF center to boot, running aorund slamming in the middle, its just posing without purpose.

Exactly.

Small ball is a wonderful "regular season" style of game. You'll rack up wins, get tons of points ... but when it comes "easy basket time" you're dead in the water.

I'll take a methodical style of offense over a run-and-gun almost every time. The best is somewhere in between, but a methodical team can always manufacture a high percentage shot whereas a run-and-gun cannot.

 

[KINGSFAN-FROM-L.A.]

Historically speaking yes you are exactly right. but it seems to be changing somehow. Speed is domnating the game. Its been said our best lineup is Bibby, Martin, Salmons, Artest, SAR. We are not the only ones. Griz did it Raps did it Philly is doing it now. Webber hasn't played the 4th quarter in the last 2 games because the opposing team went small. Teams have to couter it or their bigs end up getting blown by by all the smaller players. Even reboudning the hustle and speed is getting to rebounds quicker as well.

its just that when it comes down to playoff time the game slows down and good teams with good big men (spurs, heat) will take advantage of our small ball

 

[Entity]

I am not saying i agree with it or disagree with it. I am just noticing alot of team are winning with it right now including us. It will be interesting to see how it plays out over the rest of the season and the next 2 or 3 years in fact.

 

[Bricklayer]

I am not saying i agree with it or disagree with it. I am just noticing alot of team are winning with it right now including us. It will be interesting to see how it plays out over the rest of the season and the next 2 or 3 years in fact.

There are a lot of teams going to it. The amusing question is why? I think the answer is "Phoenix", and a lot of it may actually have more to do with drawing at the gate than winning. We'll see. The NBA is surprisingly trendy with everybody always hopping onto the latest fad. But if doesn't pay dividends, that fad has a tendency to fade away eventually. Biggest thing right now is that the current crop of dominant title winning bigs are getting old and so may nto have many titles left in them. What tips the scale may be if Yao, and maybe Oden step in and dominate as those guys fade off. And of course with maybe the 3 best young smalls all armed with bigs themselves (Lebron w/ Big Z, Wade with Shaq, Kobe all of a sudden with Bynum) you have a disrportionate numebr fo the contenders runnign around wiht big trees in the middle.

 

[Beezy]

Small ball has been working for the Kings so far... if it works why not keep doing it

 

[BMiller52]

Look at the Grizz's frontcourt, they had to play small. But they're a much better team with Gasol and he's a PF/C that's 7 feet. Look at SA, you're telling me they would be better without Tim Duncan?

Also I think Small ball isn't really pushing out traditional ball. Look at the teams with real PF/Cs building for the future:

Portland: Randolph/Aldridge
Orlando: Dwight/Darko
Boston: Jefferson/Perkins
Toronto: Bosh/Bargnani(they might be skinny but they're both 6'11''-7'0'')
GSW: Diogu/Biedrins(they play small now but these guys are both young real post players, they're building around them)


there are a couple more but those are young teams building around good PF/Cs that are really actually PFs and Cs, not SFs masquerading as PFs.

 

[PixelPusher]

Complaints about small ball seem to me to boil down to "Shame on you for not having a legit NBA Center"...well, those don't grow on trees.

 

[nbrans]

If Brad Miller can return to form the Kings will be able to play big ball and small ball. I don't think this is a better team without Brad Miller. The matchups have been favorable for the smallball lineup, but he's just one more versatile player the Kings can put out on the floor when the Kings need him.

 

[Bricklayer]

Look at the Grizz's frontcourt, they had to play small. But they're a much better team with Gasol and he's a PF/C that's 7 feet. Look at SA, you're telling me they would be better without Tim Duncan?

Also I think Small ball isn't really pushing out traditional ball. Look at the teams with real PF/Cs building for the future:

Portland: Randolph/Aldridge
Orlando: Dwight/Darko
Boston: Jefferson/Perkins
Toronto: Bosh/Bargnani(they might be skinny but they're both 6'11''-7'0'')
GSW: Diogu/Biedrins(they play small now but these guys are both young real post players, they're building around them)


there are a couple more but those are young teams building around good PF/Cs that are really actually PFs and Cs, not SFs masquerading as PFs.

Crap, forgot about Howard -- that's another big big with a serious shot at a title some day. The probem wiht small ball isn't a conceptual one, its a practical one -- it doesn't win you the whole enchilada. Like most contact sports, in basketball size matters. And with the scoring device (hoop) 9 feet off the ground, height in particular REALLY matters, and always will. Its built into the game. I've known some damn good 5'8" ballers. But they were 5'8", and that doesn't work.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Small ball is an adaptation a team makes when it has to. Better small ball tahn playing with a 7 5 center who is useless (ask any one who watched Mursan play) but in the end the big boys dominating down low will win. The reason so many teams are playing small ball is not beceause it works but beceause there are so few quality centers in the leage now.

Despite Brad's size he is not a traditional center but he creats the worst kind of mistmatch problems for both traditonal line ups AND small teams that it makes up for his lack of mobility and less than steller interior D.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Can someone tell me what the average height of NBA centers was between 1956 and 1969?

Also explain why one of the most dominant defensive minded centers of today's game is listed at 6'9" and how he beat Shaq for a ring?

I'm not going to argue for or against small ball right now other than to say there is more that goes into playing "big" or "small" than just the heighth of a player.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Can someone tell me what the average height of NBA centers was between 1956 and 1969?

Also explain why one of the most dominant defensive minded centers of today's game is listed at 6'9" and how he beat Shaq for a ring?

I'm not going to argue for or against small ball right now other than to say there is more that goes into playing "big" or "small" than just the heighth of a player.

Not sure about the average hight thing, but I would guess it was a few inches shorter than the average in the 80's and 90's. As for Ben Wallace I would be hard pressed to say HE beat Shaq for a ring... he was part of a more efficnet team, but the one thing Ben has never really done even in the finals is stop Shaq, holds his own about as well as bull 7 footers but stop him... no. Ultimatly that is not the point anyway. Ben playes like a traditional center. Moves slow, works in the paint, blocks shots, rebounds and cleans up. He uses his size instead of fines or speed. Compare these guys to SAR or Marion or any of the mini centers in the NBA and you will see the difference in play. Interestingly tonight Reef had one of his best games eve at the 5 and coincidentlay was up against smaller guys all night.

 

[BawLa]

Griz did it Raps did it Philly is doing it now.

If you want to strengthen your point, then you have to find an example with a good team. I hate to kill your flow but those teams combined are 7-14.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ben playes like a traditional center. Moves slow, works in the paint, blocks shots, rebounds and cleans up. He uses his size instead of fines or speed.

I think that is the real key to the Ben Wallace exception -- its not an exception. Its like Wes Unseld (also 6'8") winning a title back in the day. Small in height, but providing everything that the big boys do except interior scoring. He's much more of an example of a "big" doing what bigs do than he is of an example of smallball.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Not sure about the average hight thing, but I would guess it was a few inches shorter than the average in the 80's and 90's. As for Ben Wallace I would be hard pressed to say HE beat Shaq for a ring... ...
Ben playes like a traditional center. Moves slow, works in the paint, blocks shots, rebounds and cleans up. He uses his size instead of fines or speed. Compare these guys to SAR or Marion or any of the mini centers in the NBA and you will see the difference in play.

I didn't really say Ben beat Shaq himself, just that he had a ring (since some said that only Shaq and Tim Duncan get rings, and Duncan was converted to PF in the NBA). But what I was getting at is that there is more to small ball and big ball than physical height and was leading up to the point that its a lot more of a combination of system and mindset than finding a genetic freak to play for your team.

 

[Bricklayer]

a genetic freak to play for your team.

I think Big Ben is very much a genetic freak. Have you seen that guy?

No true "small" can basically EVER give you what a true big can. A smallish big like Ben can, but he's also once in a generation ala a Rodman. In fact great big centers come along far more often than great small centers that play big.

The ONLY teams to pull off titles in the last 25-30 years without a center (and here I cheat a bit and call the 7'0" 250lb Duncan what he really is) who had been an All Star at some point were the Bulls teams, who mearely had Pippen & Jordan (and then Rodman). That's your real exception -- you can pull it off if you have the greatest player ever to lace up sneakers on your team.

Just going back:

Heat: 7'1" 350lb Shaq, 6'10" 250lb 2 time DPOY Zo
Spurs: 7'0" 250lb MVP Duncan, 7'1" 250lb former MVP Admiral (also 7'1" Rasho, 7'0" Nazr)
Pistons: 6'9" 250lb 4x DPOY Ben Wallace, 6'11" Sheed, 6'9" McDyess, also a 6'10" "small" forward
Lakers: 7'1" 350lb Shaq
Bulls: 7'2" 270lb Luc Longley or 7'1" 240 Bill Cartwright. Also of course the greatest rebounder in the last 30 years at PF in Rodman or 6'10" Ho Grant the first time around, also all kinds of 7'1" Wenningtons, 6'10" Deles, 6'10" Scott Williams, 7'0" Will Perdue, also 7'1" Joe Kleine, 7'0" Parrish -- they won wiht Michel/Pippen, but they always had a ton of big bigs around to fill the middle.
Rockets: that 6'10" 250lb Hakeem guy
Pistons: 6'11" 250lb Laimbeer, 6'11" Salley, Rodman again, 7'0" Buddha Edwards, 6'9" Mahorn to thug you etc.
Lakers: that 7'2" Kareem guy
Celtics: 7'0" Parrish, 6'11" McHale, and of course the immortal Greg Kite
76ers: 6'10" Moses Malone +...getting back around the beginning of my time here 6'10" Bobby Jones, Clemon Johsnon etc.

and going back into the 70's:

'78-'79 = Sonics w/ Jack Sikma
'77-'78 = Bullets w/ Wes Unseld
'76-'77 = Blazers w/Walton
'75-'76 = Celtics with Cowens

And so you have to go back to 1975 -- leisure suits, perms and fros, platform shoes, you name it -- to even find a team without bigs of note. Warriors that year won it with Clifford Ray at center (I think -- that IS before my time). Of course that doesn't mean they were smallballing. In fact they were pretty much just lucky and stand out as just about the worst champion of all time -- one man team behind a megastar in Rick Barry who were middling all year and then got on a bit of a roll at playoff time. And of course if you go any further back you just go right back into big, big, bigger, Cowens, Willis Reed, Wilt, Kareem/Alcindor, Russel etc. etc. In fact that gets us all the way back to the 50's. And I know that during the early 50's it was another giant -- George Mikan -- who carried his teams to titles. So I mean...we are not too far off from talking about basically never in the history of the league type stuff.


But on the other hand our own Jerry Reynolds will tell ya small ball is sexier than ticks on a hound dog's privates, so we know its really a sound strategy.

 

[The Hammer]

Crap, forgot about Howard -- that's another big big with a serious shot at a title some day. The probem wiht small ball isn't a conceptual one, its a practical one -- it doesn't win you the whole enchilada. Like most contact sports, in basketball size matters. And with the scoring device (hoop) 9 feet off the ground, height in particular REALLY matters, and always will. Its built into the game. I've known some damn good 5'8" ballers. But they were 5'8", and that doesn't work.

It's actually 10 feet off the ground.

 

[Bricklayer]

It's actually 10 feet off the ground.

True enough.

 

[Entity]

OK how is this brick. Meet me half way with it. Its better to have a true Center but, in todays game is a good idea to be able to go small when need be to counter strategies. But you do need that dominator. Agreed??

 

[Bricklayer]

OK how is this brick. Meet me half way with it. Its better to have a true Center but, in todays game is a good idea to be able to go small when need be to counter strategies. But you do need that dominator. Agreed??

Agreed. Flexibility is always good.

Actually...well...maybe not ENTIRELY agreed, just because teams that have that dominator rarely bother "matching up", they just take their big ole hoss and beat you over the head with him until YOU adjust...or submit. Not often you see a Shaq or Duncan benched so their teams can "matchup" with the silly little smallballing teams.

But I do think if you've got anything less than a dominator, then being able to play it more than one way just has to be useful. But regardless, when it gets time to get serious and win basically every bit of eveidence that we have says you've just got to have somebody big and strong in there to anchor you.

 

[Entity]

For instance somebody like cleveland with big Z I think he would have to sit to counter our small ball game. He is decent against some real centers but would get run off the court by SAR.

 

[Bricklayer]

For instance somebody like cleveland with big Z I think he would have to sit to counter our small ball game. He is decent against some real centers but would get run off the court by SAR.

The way they are using Z this year, maybe. But I have no idea why Reef, who is not a runner, would cause particular problems for a guy like Z other than, ironically, his jumper. The quandry you get into is Reef is primary a post scorer, but he's a small finesse post scorer. And big centers liek Z tower over him and have spent their whole lives guarding post scorers. Far from chasing them off the floor, by instinct Reef plays right into their hands, attacking them where they are strong. A true smallballing "power" player who would chase such a big man would either be a pure outside shooter (such as Brad actually -- why he causes probelms to Yao) or a fluid run n gun athlete who ruins the floor liek a gazelle. Reef is neither. He's a post guy by nature, and that is exactly who Z is out there to guard.