SI (Life of Reilly): Giving Barry His Due

[VF21]

And another thing VF, the Giants stink because they kept trying to rebuild on the fly....a situation you might understand being a Kingsfan. Fortunately for Giants fans, it is much easier to build through free agency in baseball than in basketball.

And unfortunately for Giants fans, they have to keep watching as their front office pays huge amounts of money to someone who...

Well, you know what I was going to say so I'll leave it at that. Please don't ask me any more questions because you've banished me from this thread... thankfully.

 

[BawLa]

Enjoy your poker. The Giants game just started and my boy is in the lineup.

 

[OHSacFan]

Whatever. First home run landed on Sheffield street and the other one was caught by a kid. No matter how hated Bonds is, those balls have value and it would be just dumb to throw back the real ball.

I love it how when Bonds comes to plate the strike zone gets expanded by couple of feet. His first homerun yesterday was legit, but the second onw he struck out about twice, but the umpire let it slide.

I love it how Bonds can sit out "hurt" until he gets to face a pitcher that he knows he can hit against.

With that said, I want Bonds to go on a tear this weekend and crush the Brewers.

Go Cubs.

Amen. And SKFFL, I agree. I love reading Reilly's articles, including this one. I'm not a Giants hater - I actually like the Giants and rooted for them in the World Series a few years ago, but I simply cannot cheer on Bonds. Can't do it because whether or not the accusations are true, Bonds and those like him have cast a shadow over a game I have loved dearly my whole life.

 

[uolj]

First, I think most people would agree that Bonds probably took performance enhancing drugs. You can say that many other players also took those drugs. You can say that it has never been proven or that he never failed a test. You can even say that he didn't know he was taking them. But given what we know, I don't see how you can think anything other than he probably used performance-enhancing drugs. Does anybody here actually dispute that?

Now, in my opinion, the reason Bonds is so vilified is not because he was the only one to do it (he wasn't). It is not because of his personality. It is not because he is black.

The reason Bonds is vilified is because he is still here and because he is going to taint one of the most important records in baseball. If Mark McGwire was chasing Aaron's home run record, he would be treated very similarly.

Stated simply, the situation sucks. It sucks for the fans who want to root for their teams and their favorite players, but have to live with the fear that the success they root for is tainted. It sucks for the fans who want to remember the accomplishments of this generation, but who cannot separate those accomplishments from stain of cheating that has been spilled upon them.

Bonds is the poster child for this frustration, and it's simply because he is still here.

 

[VF21]

First, I think most people would agree that Bonds probably took performance enhancing drugs. You can say that many other players also took those drugs. You can say that it has never been proven or that he never failed a test. You can even say that he didn't know he was taking them. But given what we know, I don't see how you can think anything other than he probably used performance-enhancing drugs. Does anybody here actually dispute that?

Now, in my opinion, the reason Bonds is so vilified is not because he was the only one to do it (he wasn't). It is not because of his personality. It is not because he is black.

The reason Bonds is vilified is because he is still here and because he is going to taint one of the most important records in baseball. If Mark McGwire was chasing Aaron's home run record, he would be treated very similarly.

Stated simply, the situation sucks. It sucks for the fans who want to root for their teams and their favorite players, but have to live with the fear that the success they root for is tainted. It sucks for the fans who want to remember the accomplishments of this generation, but who cannot separate those accomplishments from stain of cheating that has been spilled upon them.

Bonds is the poster child for this frustration, and it's simply because he is still here.

You've totally hit the nail on the head, at least in what I was trying (but failing) to express. Thank you.

 

[BawLa]

Quote from another site:

that is NOT how history works. History will remember 756: Bonds' personality, his "jerkiness": will be remembered, but filtered by the passage of time-it will become a quirk- just as Cobb, Ted Williams, Mantle, Mays, and many of the other greats with "issues" are remembered. No one knows how the "steroid era" will play out- most experts are starting to believe that hundreds of players will eventually be implicated. Perhaps this era will be thought of like the Black Sox scandal or it might just be forgotten. In either case Bonds will be a legend like Josh Gibson, Ruth, Honus Wagner- one of the legends of the game- the warts will be air brushed with the passage of time...

I happen to share this sentiment if you couldn't guess.

 

[vj9999]

That's ok. Let Bonds have his claim to shame. A-Rod will end up breaking the record in next 10 years any way

 

[Warhawk]

FYI it is not about the record for Barry. But most people don't know that. They just assume it is about the record for him. He could care less about the record. That is why he said in an interview with renowned Giants announcers, Krukow and Kuiper, that when A-Rod passes his record he will be there in the front seat cheering him on.

And I find it laughable when people continuously say he "rubs it in their face". Why? Because he didn't bow down and just go away? The only way Barry goes away is if the federal grand jury can actually come up with a case, but it has been years now so I wouldn't hold my breath on it. Expecting Barry to just go away because some people might be mad just makes me laugh, I can't help it, please don't take it personally.

And BTW, the majority of players and coaches throughout the league respect Barry Bonds. Just because most of them don't speak out like Schilling doesn't mean they don't exist. The problem with standing up for Barry in public means you are stand up for steriods and that is why we don't see more of it.

Hey, I can say I am typing this from the moon, but that doesn't make it any more true. The only reason he's playing is to break the record.

He's an arrogant, pompous a**. Which is his right. But I can also not like him because of it, which is my right as well.

He basically admitted using steroids but said he didn't know it was steriods at the time - "I thought it was flaxseed" or whatever. I don't care if he goes away or not, I'd just prefer that he not break the record for reasons stated previously. That is an important achievement that frankly should be by someone who respects the game.

If you can honestly look at all the evidence and say to yourself that Barry didn't take any steroids and growth hormones to "cheat" his way to a record, all I can say is "wow" - you must really be ignorant about what he's done. And I don't mean ignorant in a bad way, just uninformed. I don't know how anyone can support a player like that. I can't. Every reported and investigator I've heard interviewed has said that they are convinced (based on years of research and investigations) that BB was a big-time steroid user, including the guys from Sports Illustrated.

The players I like have to be ones that respect the game, play the right way, and have a good reputation and attitude. I can't support a guy just because he's going to break a record. He really is pathetic. If you can't break the record honestly, why do it? How can you look in the mirror and honestly think you were good enough to own the record when you had to cheat to do it? I just don't understand that line of thinking.

It's like the guy who wants to own a Hummer but instead of earning enough $$$ to buy one he just steals someone else's and drives it around showing his friends. It's not his. He didn't earn it. Does he really think it's cool? Does he have no honor or self-respect?

 

[kupman]

^^^I really believe that Bonds would be breaking this record with or without taking steriods. In fact, steriod use could actually limit the number of HRs a player hits over a career.

 

[Warhawk]

^^^I really believe that Bonds would be breaking this record with or without taking steriods. In fact, steriod use could actually limit the number of HRs a player hits over a career.

OK, I'd love to see why a player would take steriods and HGH and whatever else he's been injecting and rubbing and swallowing to reduce the amount of home runs they hit.... Brilliant!

This is the first time I've ever seen that assertion.

Whether or not he could've done it without steroids is neither here nor there. Maybe he would have broken the record with or without. He did take steroids and other drugs to balloon up and increase his strength. His choice. What he could have possibly done without them is all conjecture.

BB is probably a top 10 layer of all time - even before steroids he was fantastic (from what little I know). He wanted to take the easy way and try to cheat his way to a record. Looks like it worked. Pardon me if I don't jump on his bandwagon, though.

 

[Heuge]

yikes VF. You need to look again through a nuetral non-Barry hating lens. He is still one of the top 20 most feared hitters in the league. He leads the majors (thats all of baseball by a ton in on base percentage. Even after his recent slump, he gets on base nearly half the time he is at bat. That is staggering and very good. Again Im not a Barry lover, but you are way off base here, flat out wrong.

in the mirror once in a while, okay?

As far as seeing what he's doing at the age of 43, and calling it amazing, that's rich. He's no better than a trained bear at this point, being brought out to entertain. He certainly isn't capable of actually PLAYING the game any longer. It's not amazing. It's actually pretty damned sad.

 

[kupman]

OK, I'd love to see why a player would take steriods and HGH and whatever else he's been injecting and rubbing and swallowing to reduce the amount of home runs they hit.... Brilliant!

This is the first time I've ever seen that assertion.

easy there...I am trying to have a discussion. I do not want an emotional argument.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say the Bonds took steroids for 4 years and the juice enabled him to hit an average of 10 more HRs pure year (+40). he then stops taking the juice which leads to catabolic breakdown and injury. This leads him to hitting only 5 HRs in 2005 and then he hits only 26 last year. Without the side effects of steroid withdrawal he perhaps hits 40 and 40 those two years...an extra 49 HRs. Therefore, he would have 9 more HRs now than he would have had without steroids.

This is hypothetical of course. But you can see how it is completely conceivable that steroid use could actually reduce career HR production.

Then there is the issue of "does steroid use increase HR hitting ability in the first place?" Until someone proves otherwise, the answer has to be "no."

 

[BawLa]

OK, I'd love to see why a player would take steriods and HGH and whatever else he's been injecting and rubbing and swallowing to reduce the amount of home runs they hit.... Brilliant!

This is the first time I've ever seen that assertion.

Whether or not he could've done it without steroids is neither here nor there. Maybe he would have broken the record with or without. He did take steroids and other drugs to balloon up and increase his strength. His choice. What he could have possibly done without them is all conjecture.

BB is probably a top 10 layer of all time - even before steroids he was fantastic (from what little I know). He wanted to take the easy way and try to cheat his way to a record. Looks like it worked. Pardon me if I don't jump on his bandwagon, though.

Oh please, you should be able to see what he meant by that. The simple, and widely known fact about steroids, is that it destroys your body. Barry was injured the last couple years because his knees are bone-on-bone. He had to have the same surgery that C-Webb had I believe - microfracture surgery...and multiple times. So from the standpoint that he missed a couple years, you project career average number of home runs over that missed time and he could have hit plenty more. Although most of us realize he likely would have just gotten walked a crapload more and sprinkled a homer here and there.

One thing that steroids don't do is help you hit home runs. They can help you get stronger, but just taking steroids doesn't make you any better of a hitter, it doesn't raise your baseball IQ, hand-eye-coordination, etc, etc. They do reduce your recovery time and that is basically the main reason that all sports players take roids. The mis-conception is that everyone that takes steriods is some gargantuan ogre.

If you need support for that argument check out this article:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/05/03/SPGC8CJ5861.DTL

The players that get the most out of roids are not the home run hitters. It is the pitchers. Yet the media doesn't talk much about that. But they will soon. Just this morning, they (ESPN First Take) were talking about Jason Grimsley - a pitcher who got caught a year or so ago, and named some names. Well guess who popped up on the steroid radar? Roger Clemens, Andy Pettite, and Miguel Tejada. 2 big name pitchers and another big name hitter. But 50 bucks says that Miguel Tejada doesn't get his name smeared on the public stage. 50 bucks says that Clemens doesn't get publically villified. And if they did, 50 bucks says they couldn't still perform at a high rate like Barry does.

 

[vj9999]

yikes VF. You need to look again through a nuetral non-Barry hating lens. He is still one of the top 20 most feared hitters in the league. He leads the majors (thats all of baseball by a ton in on base percentage. Even after his recent slump, he gets on base nearly half the time he is at bat. That is staggering and very good. Again Im not a Barry lover, but you are way off base here, flat out wrong.

His OBP is high because he has 100 BB (31 intentional) out of 241 at bats.

 

[BawLa]

His OBP is high because he has 100 BB (31 intentional) out of 241 at bats.

Exactly. Because opposing pitchers and managers are still scared of this 43 year old. The same 43 year old who many think got to where he is because of steroids. Yet at this feeble age (in terms of sports), through all the controversy, he is still playing great baseball and striking fear into the minds of all opposition. It is almost poetic.

And a couple more reasons why Barry is the greatest player of our time: He did much of his dirty work in a ballpark that is extremely hard to hit home runs in, especially to the right side. Look at the all-star game. No all-star left-hander could hit one into the water in the friggin home run derby, where they lob the ball to you. The lefties could barely hit it out much less get close to reaching the water. And Barry still has not had the protection that guys like Mays, Aaron, and Ruth had. Barry has Ray Durham to protect him....not gonna get 'er done.

 

[uolj]

2 big name pitchers and another big name hitter. But 50 bucks says that Miguel Tejada doesn't get his name smeared on the public stage. 50 bucks says that Clemens doesn't get publically villified. And if they did, 50 bucks says they couldn't still perform at a high rate like Barry does.

I addressed this point earlier. If there was anywhere close to the evidence that points at Bonds, McGwire, Palmeiro or Giambi, and those guys were closing in on hallowed records, then I'd win $50.

The last reports I saw were that the original reports naming Clemens were false. That means that there is no widely reported evidence linking him to steroids (in contrast to the four guys I mentioned above). I still think he probably has used steroids, and I actually dislike Clemens even more than Bonds, but there are simple and legitimate reasons why those guys aren't vilified like Bonds has been.

Do you understand those reasons? Do you think they aren't legitimate? Why?

 

[Warhawk]

I know that steroids may not make you see the ball better, but they allow for more power, faster recovery, and quicker response time. This does lead to more home runs. Otherwise nobody would take them, now would they?

And yes, I know that your body could break down later, but they were not planning on stopping until this blew up and forced the league to take action. Assuming BB has stopped taking steriods and HGH and everything else, do you honestly think he would have if the league hadn't cracked down on it?

He'd still be pickled with the stuff if it all hadn't come tumbling down over the past couple years....

And BawLa, I'm glad you recognize that he did in fact take steriods - "Although most of us realize he likely would have just gotten walked a crapload more and sprinkled a homer here and there." So are you now agreeing that he cheated to get the numbers he did? And you are also contradicting your statement that "One thing that steroids don't do is help you hit home runs." So which is it? Fewer home runs and walking more without steriods or not? You are arguing both sides here....

And from your link:

Jose Canseco, in his book about steroid use in the game, detailed the benefits beyond adding bulk. Canseco, an admitted user, noted players inevitably become tired and lose strength over the course of a six-month regular season. He found aid in steroids.

"But the added strength isn't even the most important benefit for a baseball player," he wrote. "What makes even more of a difference in terms of performance is the added stamina it gives you all year-round. On the last day of the season, you feel as strong as you did on the first day of spring training."

So, are you still arguing that steroids don't help you hit homers?

And this isn't to say I support others who have done these drugs (Canseco, etc.), either. BB just makes himself such an easy target he has become the face of the scandal and the lightning rod for this topic. And don't give me the "poor Barry" line, either, as he has brought this upon himself by his actions, court statements, and idiotic public behavior.

And yet another shining example of the brilliance of BB:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2949529&name=chasingruth

"You mean that little midget man who absolutely knows [expletive] about baseball?" Bonds told four reporters when asked before Wednesday's game whether he had seen Costas' HBO show in which the broadcaster interviewed chemist Patrick Arnold. "He never played a game? I saw it."

Or maybe he didn't actually see the show. Bonds said after Wednesday's game that he had not seen the show, though he had "heard about it." Walking out of the clubhouse, Bonds said, "Bob Costas can kiss my ***. He's not an athlete and he doesn't know [expletive] about baseball."

And so Bonds' mouth did not take the night off when manager Bruce Bochy gave his body a rest.
After not speaking with reporters the first two days of this homestand, Bonds spoke briefly with a couple reporters just before the Giants' clubhouse closed before the game. When he was done insulting Costas, a highly respected broadcaster who has spoken and written eloquently about baseball for more than two decades, Bonds said he has never seen Arnold "in my entire life. I've never heard of the man. Never." He also said he felt fine.

What an idiot. I mean, the guy interviews another player and Barry goes after Bob instead of the facts of what the player said?

And I loved Bob's response:

http://www.ogpaper.com/news/news-0797.html

Broadcaster Bob Costas has responded to the offensive comments Barry Bonds made about his height.

A day after Barry Bonds called Bob Costas “little midget man who knows (nothing) about baseball,” the HBO broadcaster gave his response:
“As anyone can plainly see, I’m 5-6½ and a strapping 150, and unlike some people, I came by all of it naturally," Bob Costats snapped back today.
Barry Bonds made the comments about Costas' height on Wednesday, when he reviewed the interview of the BALCO chemist Patrick Arnold on the "Costas Now" show, where the chemists claimed that Bonds knew about the steroid called "the clear". Calling Bob Costas a "midget" immediately started an Internet frenzy to find out Bob Costas height 5-6½.
“He’s under tremendous scrutiny and some pressure. It’s no big deal,” Costas said. “This is a consequence of doing your job, and I’ve never tried to do my job in any case with the intention of calling attention to myself. I think if people watch the program, they can judge for themselves.”
According to NBC, when Barry Bonds was told that Bob Costas claimed he came by his physique naturally, Bonds responded, “How do you know?” before going on to say he didn’t care.
Barry Bonds, who is about to beat Aaron's record, is under investigation for perjury, related to his testimony on the BALCO case.

 

[BawLa]

Warhawk - you obviously don't get it, and please try not to take what I say out of it's context. And I am not going to re-say everything I have already said a million times before. If you are truly interested in how I feel, then go read the Hammerin Towards The Hammer thread I started a while ago. You're like the guy that comes late to the debate and wants everyone to go back over all the points that they have already laid out, just to catch you up.

Steroids do not help you DIRECTLY hit home runs. INDIRECTLY sure there are ways. Steroids can help your body put on muscle mass faster than without them. If you have the baseball IQ, the hand-eye-coordination, pitch recognition, etc, AND you took steroids to increase your muscle mass in a short period of time, then yes steroids can indirectly increase your home run production. You can't just say that if you took steroids and you hit home runs, then the steroids helped you hit home runs. That may work in terms of deductive reasoning, but there are a whole bunch of middle steps that it takes to get there.

You still have to have the right skillset in order for the steroids to actually help you hit home runs. Meaning you still have the capability to hit home runs even without the steroids. This is why, with all of the rampant steroid use in baseball, only a few could actually use them to hit more homers. What I stated earlier, and the subsequent link I gave you, was to help prove the point that steroids help a pitcher more than a home run hitter, although I must admit, if I actually cared about proving that point to YOU then I would have given more support.

Continuing - Sosa, McGuire, Giambi, they were all home run hitters before they took steroids. Some people seem to be pushing the idea that Bonds would not be where he is today without steroids and therefore does not deserve recognition. Go back to the Hammerin' thread and you will see my argument of that point.

If you can't see what he is doing now, and cleanly, and if you couldn't recognize that before he got big he still hit tons of home runs, then you are just being ignorant. Bonds grew up in a baseball family, he had his dad scout pitchers for him, he was destined to be one of the greatest.

And another thing, you don't seem to be that much of a baseball fan. Yet you seem to be really concerned that Bonds is about to hold the record. I get sick of discussing this subject with you people because you don't even watch Barry play. You haven't even seen the whole picture. And reading game of shadows is not the whole picture.


The funny thing is that on this website, everyone likes to give their opinion on why Barry is a cheater and this taht and the other. But no one talks about how much they think the steroids helped him. No one talks about the changes in statistics, the changes in his look, how it may or may not have affected his swing. No one talks about Bonds-Steroids-Homeruns together from the baseball standpoint. Everyone just assumes that if you put some sort of steroid in your body that you are going to be instantly better.

I've seen Barry before steroids, I've seen him during, and I've seen him after. And there is nothing I have seen that tells me Barry doesn't deserve to be here. And if you look at all the facts outside of the steroid issue, you will see that fact. I think the steroids gave Bonds an extra 60 HR, + or - a HR or two. I also think steroids are the reason the cartilige between his knees broke down and caused him to miss almost 2 seasons. Projecting career numbers over the missed time due to steroids, and subtracting the increase due to steroids, and it is a virtual draw. So to answer your question directly, yes I think the steroids he unknowingly took did indirectly help Barry hit a relative handful of homers, but none he wouldn't have had anyway without steroids. I don't idolize Bonds, I don't emulate Bonds, I do respect his talent and I enjoy watching it. And I would respect and enjoy his capabilities if he were on another team, although I would not get to see him much and probably wouldn't know that much about him. I also think Barry is still the best player of his time, one of the greatest all around players of all time, and one of the best home run hitters of all time. And a lot of people in and around baseball feel the same way. And him standing above or below Aaron on the all-time HR list doesn't change how I feel. Aaron isn't even the best HR hitter of all time and he holds the record. Aaron was a model of longevity and may have even used PED's in his time. So who really cares anyway? Some people say they don't want to see Barry above Aaron but it isn't because they want Aaron to be glorified, it is because they don't want to see Barry glorified. And I can understand that. But what I don't get is why people are still so upset about it. He is going to pass Aaron anyway so get over it, move on. And if you are just one of the ones that wants your voice to be heard about how upset you are that this is happening, I just feel sorry for you, because history won't care. Some of the greatest players in the history of the game were jerks, and had other shortcomings, yet they are still on that list. And so is Barry. Yup he's already on the list and his career isn't even over. Anything now is just like icing on the cake.

So Warhawk, you and the rest of the anti-Bonds campaign should just take a chill-pill, relax, and take comfort in knowing that A-Rod (yet another jerk) will pass Bonds.

PS: The whole Bob Costas thing is laughable. Costas is known to hate Bonds. If you want to hear a pretty funny take on what happened in Costas' interview with Schilling then let me know, I will paste it over. And Bonds' reply was childish and silly, and I really didn't expect much else. Are you going to tell me if Bonds had said anything different it might have changed your position on him? No, you aren't. It is just icing on the cake for you.

PPS: Warhawk - I know you and I may not see eye-2-eye on the Barry Bonds issue, but I hope that won't affect our future discussions about Kings-related items.

 

[HndsmCelt]

I would not call the people concerned about steriods the "Anti-Bonds" group. More like the pro-baseball group. Anytime a fan wants to defend the cheating or criminal behavior of a single athleet over rules and cansequences the run the risk of selling out the very sport that gave their beloved his fame.

 

[uolj]

BawLa, that's a nice (and long ) post that explains your position pretty well. However, you ask why people don't just get over it. I think I addressed the reasons, or at least my beliefs about those reasons, pretty well. Is there a reason you missed that?

 

[Warhawk]

Warhawk - you obviously don't get it, and please try not to take what I say out of it's context. And I am not going to re-say everything I have already said a million times before. If you are truly interested in how I feel, then go read the Hammerin Towards The Hammer thread I started a while ago. You're like the guy that comes late to the debate and wants everyone to go back over all the points that they have already laid out, just to catch you up.

Steroids do not help you DIRECTLY hit home runs. INDIRECTLY sure there are ways. Steroids can help your body put on muscle mass faster than without them. If you have the baseball IQ, the hand-eye-coordination, pitch recognition, etc, AND you took steroids to increase your muscle mass in a short period of time, then yes steroids can indirectly increase your home run production. You can't just say that if you took steroids and you hit home runs, then the steroids helped you hit home runs. That may work in terms of deductive reasoning, but there are a whole bunch of middle steps that it takes to get there.

You still have to have the right skillset in order for the steroids to actually help you hit home runs. Meaning you still have the capability to hit home runs even without the steroids. This is why, with all of the rampant steroid use in baseball, only a few could actually use them to hit more homers. What I stated earlier, and the subsequent link I gave you, was to help prove the point that steroids help a pitcher more than a home run hitter, although I must admit, if I actually cared about proving that point to YOU then I would have given more support.

Continuing - Sosa, McGuire, Giambi, they were all home run hitters before they took steroids. Some people seem to be pushing the idea that Bonds would not be where he is today without steroids and therefore does not deserve recognition. Go back to the Hammerin' thread and you will see my argument of that point.

If you can't see what he is doing now, and cleanly, and if you couldn't recognize that before he got big he still hit tons of home runs, then you are just being ignorant. Bonds grew up in a baseball family, he had his dad scout pitchers for him, he was destined to be one of the greatest.

And another thing, you don't seem to be that much of a baseball fan. Yet you seem to be really concerned that Bonds is about to hold the record. I get sick of discussing this subject with you people because you don't even watch Barry play. You haven't even seen the whole picture. And reading game of shadows is not the whole picture.


The funny thing is that on this website, everyone likes to give their opinion on why Barry is a cheater and this taht and the other. But no one talks about how much they think the steroids helped him. No one talks about the changes in statistics, the changes in his look, how it may or may not have affected his swing. No one talks about Bonds-Steroids-Homeruns together from the baseball standpoint. Everyone just assumes that if you put some sort of steroid in your body that you are going to be instantly better.

I've seen Barry before steroids, I've seen him during, and I've seen him after. And there is nothing I have seen that tells me Barry doesn't deserve to be here. And if you look at all the facts outside of the steroid issue, you will see that fact. I think the steroids gave Bonds an extra 60 HR, + or - a HR or two. I also think steroids are the reason the cartilige between his knees broke down and caused him to miss almost 2 seasons. Projecting career numbers over the missed time due to steroids, and subtracting the increase due to steroids, and it is a virtual draw. So to answer your question directly, yes I think the steroids he unknowingly took did indirectly help Barry hit a relative handful of homers, but none he wouldn't have had anyway without steroids. I don't idolize Bonds, I don't emulate Bonds, I do respect his talent and I enjoy watching it. And I would respect and enjoy his capabilities if he were on another team, although I would not get to see him much and probably wouldn't know that much about him. I also think Barry is still the best player of his time, one of the greatest all around players of all time, and one of the best home run hitters of all time. And a lot of people in and around baseball feel the same way. And him standing above or below Aaron on the all-time HR list doesn't change how I feel. Aaron isn't even the best HR hitter of all time and he holds the record. Aaron was a model of longevity and may have even used PED's in his time. So who really cares anyway? Some people say they don't want to see Barry above Aaron but it isn't because they want Aaron to be glorified, it is because they don't want to see Barry glorified. And I can understand that. But what I don't get is why people are still so upset about it. He is going to pass Aaron anyway so get over it, move on. And if you are just one of the ones that wants your voice to be heard about how upset you are that this is happening, I just feel sorry for you, because history won't care. Some of the greatest players in the history of the game were jerks, and had other shortcomings, yet they are still on that list. And so is Barry. Yup he's already on the list and his career isn't even over. Anything now is just like icing on the cake.

So Warhawk, you and the rest of the anti-Bonds campaign should just take a chill-pill, relax, and take comfort in knowing that A-Rod (yet another jerk) will pass Bonds.

PS: The whole Bob Costas thing is laughable. Costas is known to hate Bonds. If you want to hear a pretty funny take on what happened in Costas' interview with Schilling then let me know, I will paste it over. And Bonds' reply was childish and silly, and I really didn't expect much else. Are you going to tell me if Bonds had said anything different it might have changed your position on him? No, you aren't. It is just icing on the cake for you.

PPS: Warhawk - I know you and I may not see eye-2-eye on the Barry Bonds issue, but I hope that won't affect our future discussions about Kings-related items.

Uh, I can read what you wrote quite well on my own, thanks. I don't need you telling me I "don't get it" or that I'm the "guy that comes late to the debate and wants everyone to go back over all the points that they have already laid out, just to catch you up". I'm not ignorant of what he's done or why. Frankly, I've also seen all your arguements before and they just don't hold water. I fully acknowledge that Barry is (well, was, as I think he's on the downhill slide now) one of the greatest players of all time, as you said above. I also think that steroid use allowed him to hit more HR than he would have otherwise and also damaged his reputation with the fans, at least many of them. I further think that his career may have lasted longer if he hadn't used steroids. Again, it was his decision.

No, I acknowledged that steroids do not increase your natural ability, but they do allow you to hit more HR in a season. You admit it yourself repeatedly (see bolded statements, above), then turn around and say that they do not via some convoluted injury excuse. I never said that steroids make you a better HR hitter, I just said that the use of steroids allowed him to hit more HR. I don't think you critically read my statements.

Yes, these guys were hitting homers before. Players going from say, <=15 a year (Sosa) start hitting 35-65, then drop back to 15 all of a sudden. Gee, I wonder why? Must have been his innate HR hitting ability and nothing to do with steroids, right?

And yes, I already knew that pitchers have been juiced as well for the reasons you gave. What does that have to do with Barry?

You honestly think that his steroid use was "unknowingly" done on his behalf? What a joke.

I don't care if Costas hates Bonds or not. I do know that it is poor form for an athelete to go after a reporter like that. Makes him look stupid and petty. Which he is, in my eyes, anyways. It's not icing on the cake, it's who he is and how he thinks and what he's all about. That's what I think is so funny. You are so blind to his nature you can't see the forest for the trees.

I'm not a big baseball fan by any means. I like basketball and football much more. Point being, the casual fan such as myself is not so deeply invested in Barry worship and, like me, is more likely to see what he's done and get turned off to the sport instead of trying to come up with excuses for his behavior.

It doesn't affect me personally one way or the other, but I don't like the example it sets for children; that cheating to attain your goals is OK. It's not. It's against the spirit of the game. Sorry if this means nothing to you. It means a lot to many of us.

 

[Warhawk]

I would not call the people concerned about steriods the "Anti-Bonds" group. More like the pro-baseball group. Anytime a fan wants to defend the cheating or criminal behavior of a single athleet over rules and cansequences the run the risk of selling out the very sport that gave their beloved his fame.

Well put.

 

[vj9999]

BawLa. If even you can acknowledge that it is obvious that he took roids, why can't he come out and say it? Or we should assume that he really didn't know what he was taking.

If Bonds was just a little less of a jerk, people would not be singling him out. They would just look at him as another one of the players who used steroids. Bonds is Bonds' biggest enemy.

 

[VF21]

yikes VF. You need to look again through a nuetral non-Barry hating lens. He is still one of the top 20 most feared hitters in the league. He leads the majors (thats all of baseball by a ton in on base percentage. Even after his recent slump, he gets on base nearly half the time he is at bat. That is staggering and very good. Again Im not a Barry lover, but you are way off base here, flat out wrong.

I do not follow baseball with any kind of regularity so I cannot speak with statistics, etc.

I can, however, speak of what I hear on an almost daily basis on the TV, the radio, etc. about the Giants, their record, and Barry Bonds' performance.

What I hear and see is the vast majority of sportscasters who are NOT impressed with Bonds' chase of the record, who are not buying into his innocence and who, quite frankly, wish he would just go away because he's an embarrassment to the sport of baseball and a travesty, especially in the face of the other doping scandals currently going on.

I call him a trained bear because he's being paraded out in selected games to try and break a record. It's almost as though the season of the Giants itself doesn't matter any more. It's all about Barry. And that just sucks.

In my mind, he's no more than Reggie Jackson was towards the end of his career - a designated hitter who couldn't really bring the whole game to the field any longer. (And yes, I'm well aware the national league doesn't actually have designated hitters so, instead, Bonds plays in a couple of games and then "rests" and then plays again.)

I have always been totally honest in how I feel about this and I've tried to remain civil. You're free to disagree but please do not mistake my disgust for hatred of Bonds himself. I hate the baseball player who put himself above the game and who has pretty much made a farce of something that could have been incredibly exciting (the HONEST pursuit of Aaron's record).

Barry Bonds could easily have been one of the best to ever play the game WITHOUT freaking steroids. But that wasn't good enough for him, was it? He cheated, he got away with it, and now he's benefiting from it. Sorry, but that is NOT something I'm going to cheer. I will, however, cheer loudly the day he retires from baseball and hope that he may signal the last real cheater of an embarrassing era for a sport I really used to love.

 

[SLAB]

VF I am perfectly fine with your disgust of the chase, and your obvious disapproval of Bonds...People all have their opinions, and thats never going to change and that is perfectly acceptable and I honestly easily see why people think what they think.

The thing that gets me is how you attack him with the "trained bear" thing of an explanation. Can you name me another 43 year old that can play 162 games a year? The man rests because the guy is old as the dirt when it comes to baseball. If it wasn't for Barry the Giants would easily have about 10 less wins, and be by far the worst team in the league...When your second best player and number 5 hitter is Ryan F. Klesko, you know you have issues with your team.

And can you give me proof that Bonds is being paraded out in select games? Can you prove that one?

That is all.

 

[VF21]

Can I prove anything to you? Nope. My point is that to this observer he doesn't really even seem to be a part of the team any longer. It's the Barry Bonds dog and pony (or trained bear) show.

As far as how bad the Giants are, how much better might they be if they could actually spend the money they're paying Bonds on someone who isn't as old as the dirt?

Yeah, the Giants have a lot of issues but IMHO a major one is hopefully going to retire after this season and give the team a chance to move on.

 

[KP]

Wow. This thread is Insane!
and I thought us Kings fans were Homers...

Yes, yes... it's everybodys fault except the person, the grown man who actually made the decision to take them. It's not his fault it's Bud Seligs! And ... Uh... Curt Schillings a Jerk. Plus...err.. it never really has been proven that he ever took them... Plus... hey if he took them they don't really help you hit home runs anyway they actually hurt your chances...

Thanks guys I needed a laugh .

Sorry guys, but like I said before(which no one seemed to want to respond to) If the greatest Home run hitter of all time, who overcame everything to set the most hallowed record in all of baseball thinks he is an undeserving cheater and won't even acknowledge him as making any kind of accomplishment... thats good enough for me.

I know, I know, Hank is just jealous right?

 

[VF21]

Wow. This thread is Insane!
and I thought us Kings fans were Homers...

Yes, yes... it's everybodys fault except the person, the grown man who actually made the decision to take them. It's not his fault it's Bud Seligs! And ... Uh... Curt Schillings a Jerk. Plus...err.. it never really has been proven that he ever took them... Plus... hey if he took them they don't really help you hit home runs anyway they actually hurt your chances...

Thanks guys I needed a laugh .

Sorry guys, but like I said before(which no one seemed to want to respond to) If the greatest Home run hitter of all time, who overcame everything to set the most hallowed record in all of baseball thinks he is an undeserving cheater and won't even acknowledge him as making any kind of accomplishment... thats good enough for me.

I know, I know, Hank is just jealous right?

The usual response for the Bond contingency around here is Hank Aaron is way too old to travel. Further, since Mr. Aaron has not come out publicly and actually commented about the steroid situation he is obviously not convinced that Bonds did anything wrong.

And OJ Simpson was, in fact, innocent.














Okay, that last part wasn't from the Bonds camp but I thought it was in the same vein.

 

[BawLa]

And yes, I already knew that pitchers have been juiced as well for the reasons you gave. What does that have to do with Barry?

You honestly think that his steroid use was "unknowingly" done on his behalf? What a joke.

It doesn't affect me personally one way or the other, but I don't like the example it sets for children; that cheating to attain your goals is OK. It's not. It's against the spirit of the game. Sorry if this means nothing to you. It means a lot to many of us.

Look. I can take words out of context and put them together in the way I want too!


1. Saying you've seen my arguments before and they don't hold water might be clouding your judgement of the conversation at hand, in which case I probably don't want to continue a conversation with you. I hope you don't carry over any feelings from one discussion to the next. And I hope you won't hold my feelings about Barry Bonds and other issues against me when we discuss future Kings-related issues. I both respect and enjoy your opinions.

2. Once Sosa hit his "stride" he was hitting 35-40 homers/season. The first few seasons in the league is not your stride. So your <15 HR/year argument is already flawed. The "roid rage" jumped him to the 50-60's range. Sosa is a free swinging guy and will strikeout a lot. The way steroids affected him was different. Sosa and McGuire were juicing all over the place, and given the way that they swing, normally they make a lot of long outs. Roids + workouts made those two get stronger, quicker and they both turned a lot of long outs into HR. But Bonds was always a better hitter. He would hit the ball to both fields, and wasn't trying to hit home runs. He was trying to hit well, the home runs came because of his ability to use his legs and stay balanced through the swing. Bonds has better hand-eye coordination, he has better pitch recognition. As I stated earlier, Bonds' father even scouted pitchers for him and so at times, Bonds almost knew what was coming, allowing him to hit more home runs. Just like Muhamad Ali's mind was dominant in boxing, Barry has the same for baseball. Anyway, comparing the difference of the effect of steroids on different players definitely has its own weight on the subject. I think a lot of people overestimate the the value of steroids and their effect on Barry's home runs. Am I entitled to that opinion?

For a short period of time, steroids turned Barry Bonds' 440 ft home runs into majestic 480 ft home runs. But most of them were still home runs. And if you are going to spend a ton of energy...waste a ton of energy on arguing that he shouldn't quite be here yet, then that is just sad IMO.

3. So it is okay for you to talk about Bonds' personality but it is not okay for me to talk about steroids and pitchers? A lot of times, side tangents are going to be brought up. Especially with three very large, intertwined subjects - Bonds/Steroids/Home Runs. I assume Costas' pathetic interview with Schilling is supposed to enlighten us about Bonds and steroids right?

4. So blind to the fact that Bonds is a childish, selfish jerk? No I am not blind to that fact. But I just don't care about it as much as you. And Bonds being a jerk and all that other stuff doesn't change my view on steroids, the record and all the other babble that has been going on. And how exactly am I blind to that fact when I acknowledged it in the post you replied to? I said: "childish and silly". Wow I must be so blind I can't see the forest for the trees... .

5. You don't like the example he sets for children? Well I can't argue that. More from the personality standpoint of course, but steriod use is bad. If you have children I suggest you take the time as a parent to sit down and explain steroids to them and you can even use Barry as an example to know what you put in your body. But if you ever want to explain how to be good at baseball, you might also want to use Barry, although to keep them from getting confused, you might want to use a different all-star. Parents shouldn't be worried about the example Barry sets when parents do their job and take the time to explain things to their kids.

Not every all-star sports player fits into that perfect PC/role model category. A bunch of them are jerks and that is just reality.

6. Making up excuses for Bonds' behavior? So that I can watch him? Wow. You pegged me.... Maybe you need to take your own advice and critically read what I say. I genuinely enjoy watching one of the greatest players of all-time.

And how did you, so eloquently put it?...Don't be surprised if I don't jump on your bandwagon? Something like that. If you don't want to watch baseball anymore then fine. You say yourself that Barry turns casual fans as yourself off from the sport. I have enjoyed baseball for what it is for years. I can see through the steroids and still enjoy the pure baseball.

7. Here is a question for everyone. Why has Bonds not been caught yet? If he is SO guilty of perjury then surely the federal grand jury could convict him, right? Tell me that the federal grand jury that is taking Vick to town is the group of over-achievers and the lazy bums that are trying to put a case together against Bonds are just waiting for the right time, or they are getting paid to come up with nothing. Why after all these years have they not gone to court yet?


People, we are entering a new era, where science is unlocking the very essence of nature. I presume as we continue into the next decade, performance enhancing drugs are going to reach a level that will dwarf the "clear and cream". I suppose if the associations that run each sport want to truly have clean records in the future, then they need to take regular blood samples of every player and store the blood until it can be properly tested. Sure, we won't know right away if people are guilty, but we will have their blood on record and can test it once a new steroid is discovered. That is the only idea I can come up with off the top of my head that solves the issue of undetectable steroids. But it isn't very pheasable I guess....that is a lot of blood. When I try to come up with ideas of how to combat steroids, I usually come to the same conclusion...it is like trying to ice skate uphill. So maybe the real step we should take as society is just acceptance. Acceptance that tainted records may be the trend from here on out. Acceptance that players will ALWAYS look for an edge. Acceptance that some of our better players may be jerks. Some people aren't ready for acceptance yet. And that is okay. And I don't think we should give up on trying to find a way to abolish steroids completely. But knowing a little bit about chemistry, I can say that dream is going to be a tough one to accomplish, it may in fact be impossible. But then again, everyone thought the world was flat at one point.

Good night.

 

[VF21]

People, we are entering a new era, where science is unlocking the very essence of nature. I presume as we continue into the next decade, performance enhancing drugs are going to reach a level that will dwarf the "clear and cream". I suppose if the associations that run each sport want to truly have clean records in the future, then they need to take regular blood samples of every player and store the blood until it can be properly tested. Sure, we won't know right away if people are guilty, but we will have their blood on record and can test it once a new steroid is discovered. That is the only idea I can come up with off the top of my head that solves the issue of undetectable steroids. But it isn't very pheasable I guess....that is a lot of blood. When I try to come up with ideas of how to combat steroids, I usually come to the same conclusion...it is like trying to ice skate uphill. So maybe the real step we should take as society is just acceptance. Acceptance that tainted records may be the trend from here on out. Acceptance that players will ALWAYS look for an edge. Acceptance that some of our better players may be jerks. Some people aren't ready for acceptance yet. And that is okay. And I don't think we should give up on trying to find a way to abolish steroids completely. But knowing a little bit about chemistry, I can say that dream is going to be a tough one to accomplish, it may in fact be impossible. But then again, everyone thought the world was flat at one point.

Good night.

Just accept cheating? Just accept that tainted records may be the trend from here on out. Wow.

So basically, cheating is okay if you don't get caught in the act and character is for those who aren't chasing elusive records OR wearing your favorite team's uniform?

Sorry, dude, but I know a LOT of people who aren't just willing to roll over and play dead or look the other way over things like this. Acceptance is for those who are not willing to fight for what they believe.

As far as you trying to draw a parallel between Bonds and Michael Vick, there isn't one. Lots of players took steroids; who knows how many never got caught. Michael Vick, on the other hand, is facing a case with tons of direct evidence. He won't be able to slip beneath the radar quite as easily.

You'll soon have your wish. Bonds will have the record. And he'll still be a cheating jerk who will most likely hear more boos than cheers when the record falls.

One more thing? Your comment about the future and how sports organizations will have to take blood samples and do much much more to prevent cheating is pretty telling. And it's a sad commentary about the way people apparently look at cheating. It shouldn't surprise me, I guess, since academic cheating in high school and college is pandemic.

Cheating is wrong. People who prosper from cheating are not worthy of respect. If their principles are such that they think cheating is the way to get ahead, then I'd rather they do away with sports all together or turn them all into RAW than allow a bunch of cheating jerks to make obscene amounts of money while they laugh at those of us who actually cared about the competition.