Should Monte be the GM next year?

[Joshyjosh31]

For the people that want Monte to stay are you guys expecting Doug to be back as well? When Monte isn't given an extension next year then the new GM will fire Doug who would’ve have been resigned this year so we’d be paying multiple coaches again

 

[hrdboild]

Lol, are you joking? We literally lost the next 5 games, which lead to Brown getting fired. 6 if we include the Lakers game. And you want to say Tetsu is spinning a narrative? What was the FULL Mike Brown tenure, not just before we fell off a cliff?

Sigh. I told you exactly why I picked that date in my post. If you have another way to find out what the Kings' Offensive, Defensive, and Net Ratings were on December 27th when Mike Brown was fired than please go ahead and post them.

But also, how much do we care about a 5 game sample when Mike Brown coached the Kings for 204 games? My point is that there were signs that the team was making progress early this season under Coach Brown in real ways that impact winning. Stating that "he lost the team" as if it's some kind of verifiable fact is at least as revisionist as anything I've said. I understand that all of sports media runs on telling us what has happened with absolute certainty after it has happened but that's just not good enough for me. I actually want to see some evidence to support those conclusions and a track record of making valid predictions based on that evidence.

 

[The_Jamal]

Sigh. I told you exactly why I picked that date in my post. If you have another way to find out what the Kings' Offensive, Defensive, and Net Ratings were on December 27th when Mike Brown was fired than please go ahead and post them.

I fully understand why you did it. I'm still asking why you think it means anything at all to this discussion when Brown was ultimately fired because of how the next 5 games transpired and the team fell off a cliff largely because of baffling crunch time decisions by the team and himself. And the team was underperforming their NET ratings at that time BECAUSE of how poor our crunch time performance was. I believe we were something like 3-9 in games decided by 5 points or less... that falls on coaching as much as it falls on the players.

In addition to us seemingly "wanting" teams to shoot a bunch of 3s that we left mostly wide open. The defensive game plan was always to hedge the paint attack, which left the corner 3 open all game long.

 

[TheMobb]

I fully understand why you did it. I'm still asking why you think it means anything at all to this discussion when Brown was ultimately fired because of how the next 5 games transpired and the team fell off a cliff largely because of baffling crunch time decisions by the team and himself.

Right. In addition working in a piece like LaVine into the offense is complex and still a work in progress and will skew the numbers. Not to mention injuries to Sabonis and Monk.

 

[The_Jamal]

Right. In addition working in a piece like LaVine into the offense is complex and still a work in progress and will skew the numbers. Not to mention injuries to Sabonis and Monk.

I mean, this season has truly been a crap-show. Fired the HC, lead assistant left mid-season, assistant GM left mid-season, traded the long-term franchise player, Domas missed his first extended stretch in his entire tenure with us AFTER the deadline. Despite all that, to still get to 40 wins (somehow the 10th best season in Sacramento history LOL) is a pretty impressive feat all things considering.

 

[hrdboild]

I fully understand why you did it. I'm still asking why you think it means anything at all to this discussion when Brown was ultimately fired because of how the next 5 games transpired and the team fell off a cliff largely because of baffling crunch time decisions by the team and himself. And the team was underperforming their NET ratings at that time BECAUSE of how poor our crunch time performance was. I believe we were something like 3-9 in games decided by 5 points or less... that falls on coaching as much as it falls on the players.

In addition to us seemingly "wanting" teams to shoot a bunch of 3s that we left mostly wide open. The defensive game plan was always to hedge the paint attack, which left the corner 3 open all game long.

Sorry, I edited my post and elaborated a bit which I think mostly answers your question. If you look at where we were on December 15th, that is not a team which fires it's coach. Were the next 5 games so bad that we need to cut a guy loose who has 3 years on his contract? Only if you're a crazy person with no patience or understanding of basketball, in my opinion. Which I guess characterizes whoever is in charge.

In addition to us seemingly "wanting" teams to shoot a bunch of 3s that we left mostly wide open. The defensive game plan was always to hedge the paint attack, which left the corner 3 open all game long.

Well the team was better by 3 Opponent PPG under that strategy than they are now (not to mention better than more than half of the league) so it was working at least a little bit wasn't it?

 

[SacTownKid]

For the people that want Monte to stay are you guys expecting Doug to be back as well? When Monte isn't given an extension next year then the new GM will fire Doug who would’ve have been resigned this year so we’d be paying multiple coaches again

Doug better be back. He's a perfect coach for whatever direction this takes, whether it's rebuild or win now. He shouldn't cost that much either. Going out and signing another name coach could be a disaster because you know they'll be coming in like Karl did, trying to wear the GM hat too. First thing Karl wanted to do was send Cuz packing and rebuild HIS style of team. Can't have that right now with the questions circling around the Kings roster long term.

As for coaching firings, look at the league, Bud just got a bag to leave too. This is the new way, pay first, fire whenever you have to, ask questions later. We're not seeing NBA teams scared to overpay and scrap coaches at the drop of a hat. The salary cap is clearly the issue for most teams right now.

 

[The_Jamal]

Doug better be back. He's a perfect coach for whatever direction this takes, whether it's rebuild or win now. He shouldn't cost that much either. Going out and signing another name coach could be a disaster because you know they'll be coming in like Karl did, trying to wear the GM hat too. First thing Karl wanted to do was send Cuz packing and rebuild HIS style of team. Can't have that right now with the questions circling around the Kings roster long term.

As for coaching firings, look at the league, Bud just got a bag to leave too. This is the new way, pay first, fire whenever you have to, ask questions later. We're not seeing NBA teams scared to overpay and scrap coaches at the drop of a hat. The salary cap is clearly the issue for most teams right now.

I'm not overly certain on Doug, but if Monte remains the GM, I think tying Doug to him makes the most sense. Give them 2 more seasons, if they haven't corrected course, you can pretty much start fresh in 2027, deal Domas, Deal Monk, LaVine is an expiring after next year.

I do like the idea that Doug's gotten essentially a 7-month head start to work with this core and begin to install what he'd actually like to do as the leader on the bench. I would be curious how many practices we've actually gotten in since he's become HC... can't be that many. Just that alone of getting a chance to drill some of his concepts would really help.

 

[sactowndog]

I'm not overly certain on Doug, but if Monte remains the GM, I think tying Doug to him makes the most sense. Give them 2 more seasons, if they haven't corrected course, you can pretty much start fresh in 2027, deal Domas, Deal Monk, LaVine is an expiring after next year.

I do like the idea that Doug's gotten essentially a 7-month head start to work with this core and begin to install what he'd actually like to do as the leader on the bench. I would be curious how many practices we've actually gotten in since he's become HC... can't be that many. Just that alone of getting a chance to drill some of his concepts would really help.

Not sure why you consider a team finishing anywhere from 9-14 a success. That to me is a team without direction who will perpetually be unsuccessful. That finish is where Monte has finished 4-5 years.

To be fair he told us he was an executive with no direction “all roads are open” from Day 1. To his credit he has executed on his plan.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I think giving both a full year to work this out is the right thing to do with the caveat that if it isn't done Monte is gone and Doug is committed to basically doing what Chauncey just did in Portland - coaching a total rebuild.

Chauncey somehow against all odds is standing while every coach named Mike got fired.

 

[hrdboild]

This is quite possibly the single most boldfaced bit of revisionist history I’ve ever seen on this site. Maybe the Kings weren’t terrible at defense under Brown to start the season but they were also giving up threes at an astonishing rate while also refusing to play their best defender for some reason. The Kings have gotten a bit worse on defense since the deal, yes, but it’s not a huge night and day difference AND the team’s defensive coordinator left for a college head coaching gig with a full month left in the season.

Mike Brown seems like a great dude but his track record would suggest that his old-fashioned style of coaching leads to his players sort of tuning him out to the point of him getting fired. It happened with the Cavs where their GM tried to keep LeBron by firing Brown and replacing him with a slightly less abrasions personality (sure it was Byron Scott but whatever) and then it happened with the Lakers where his style coming in after Phil Jackson’s less wound up approach immediately led to Kobe and Pau having conflicts with him and him getting fired a week into his second season. Are any of the guys on the Kings Kobe or Bron? No but that doesn’t mean that they should put up or shut up with someone giving them diminishing returns.

Also this is the “Should Monte be the GM next year?” Thread so I guess I’ll just say that Monte didn’t do Mike Brown any favors by giving him the roster that he did at the beginning of the season (plus Devin was hurt) but Mike Brown didn’t do the roster any favors by misusing what he did have. Ironically the De’Aaron Fox deal DID fix some of Mike Brown’s size concerns with the roster but now it’s for a coach who is much more amenable to a style that actually helped maximize the roster from beginning of the year. It’s a bit of a Gift of the Magi situation on that one.

Not to belabor the point, but here's what I wrote on December 21st. It's almost the exact same point I made in the post that you accused of being revisionist.

If this team were getting crushed on defense night after night (as they were in the 22-23 season) or struggling to put the ball in the basket (which was often a problem last season) it would be fair to question player motivation, skill level, or coaching competence. But statistically speaking, this is the best the team has performed in the Mike Brown era:

In Year 1 the Kings had the #1 offense but were dreadful defensively.
In Year 2 this group was middle of the pack at both.
Currently this has been a top 5-10 offense and a top 10-15 defense.

It's not quite the best of both worlds, but it's getting close. The skill level and the effort are both there but we're losing games in the margins where the unforced turnovers, poor bench play, and hot and cold shooting streaks add up just enough to keep us from getting the win. That's about as frustrating as it gets as a fan because the opportunities are right there -- the Kings have led in the 4th quarter of a lot of these losses.

If anything I think what this team needs is a mental reset. The Beam Team of 2022-2023 was fun to watch because they were having fun playing basketball together. The pressure to live up to the standard set that season and take it even further has these guys playing tight. Maybe that's coming from Coach, maybe it's coming from fans and local media, maybe it's coming from the players themselves and the lack of recognition that they get for leading a team which notoriously attracts little to no national media attention and the tangible financial impact which results from that.

Speaking of which -- here's the elephant in the room that I'm seeing... If you don't think Fox is painfully aware that his younger ex-teammate Tyrese Haliburton got the All-Star spot, All-NBA votes, US Olympic Team roster invite, and massive contract extension that he did not get last season than you haven't been paying attention to who Fox is. He clocks the disrespect and doesn't need an agent's encouragement to do the mental math of how much he stands to lose by being The Man in Sacramento rather than anywhere else. Nobody ever said this ish was fair.

As fans of this team we also need to be aware of this and realize that the only "weapon" we have to keep our superstars here in Sacramento where almost every other incentive is working against us is to show unconditional love and support. Let me put it this way -- if I'm taking less money (endorsement opportunities are massive in other markets) and likely giving up my chances of basketball immortality to keep my family stable in a smaller market filled with diehard basketball fans, I better feel appreciated by those fans or there's going to be resentment.

 

[Jdbraver137]

Yes, stop the GM and coaching carousel

 

[The_Jamal]

Not sure why you consider a team finishing anywhere from 9-14 a success. That to me is a team without direction who will perpetually be unsuccessful. That finish is where Monte has finished 4-5 years.

To be fair he told us he was an executive with no direction “all roads are open” from Day 1. To his credit he has executed on his plan.

Where did I say this team was successful? Can you at least attempt to read what I wrote?

 

[sactowndog]

Where did I say this team was successful? Can you at least attempt to read what I wrote?

“ I mean, this season has truly been a crap-show. Fired the HC, lead assistant left mid-season, assistant GM left mid-season, traded the long-term franchise player, Domas missed his first extended stretch in his entire tenure with us AFTER the deadline. Despite all that, to still get to 40 wins (somehow the 10th best season in Sacramento history LOL) is a pretty impressive feat all things considering.”

sorry on my phone and too lazy to multi quote.

 

[The_Jamal]

“ I mean, this season has truly been a crap-show. Fired the HC, lead assistant left mid-season, assistant GM left mid-season, traded the long-term franchise player, Domas missed his first extended stretch in his entire tenure with us AFTER the deadline. Despite all that, to still get to 40 wins (somehow the 10th best season in Sacramento history LOL) is a pretty impressive feat all things considering.”

sorry on my phone and too lazy to multi quote.

Reading comprehension still not detected.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

“ I mean, this season has truly been a crap-show. Fired the HC, lead assistant left mid-season, assistant GM left mid-season, traded the long-term franchise player, Domas missed his first extended stretch in his entire tenure with us AFTER the deadline. Despite all that, to still get to 40 wins (somehow the 10th best season in Sacramento history LOL) is a pretty impressive feat all things considering.”

sorry on my phone and too lazy to multi quote.

never assume that an impressive feat is necessarily also a success

 

[gunks]

The problem is do you really think Monte can’t do more damage? I might have agreed with this take prior to the LaVine trade.

I think you're about one mid off-season away from getting a victory lap (assuming Monte gets that chance), but I'm not sure you can put the Fox trade on McNair.

Fox turned his trade value to trash by "yes dear-ing" his way to San Antonio and ONLY SA, and I don't think it's a coincidence that we ended up with a player Vivek has been chasing through multiple Kings FOs.

If Fox was honest a few seasons ago, and if Vivek wasn't so dead set on Zach for eight years or whatever, we could have gotten a lot more for Swipa the Snake.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I think you're about one mid off-season away from getting a victory lap (assuming Monte gets that chance), but I'm not sure you can put the Fox trade on McNair.

Fox turned his trade value to trash by "yes dear-ing" his way to San Antonio and ONLY SA, and I don't think it's a coincidence that we ended up with a player Vivek has been chasing through multiple Kings FOs.

If Fox was honest a few seasons ago, and if Vivek wasn't so dead set on Zach for eight years or whatever, we could have gotten a lot more for Swipa the Snake.

Remember when Vlade was tripping over himself to get to Luke Walton before anybody else could get him

 

[SacTownKid]

I think you're about one mid off-season away from getting a victory lap (assuming Monte gets that chance), but I'm not sure you can put the Fox trade on McNair.

Fox turned his trade value to trash by "yes dear-ing" his way to San Antonio and ONLY SA, and I don't think it's a coincidence that we ended up with a player Vivek has been chasing through multiple Kings FOs.

If Fox was honest a few seasons ago, and if Vivek wasn't so dead set on Zach for eight years or whatever, we could have gotten a lot more for Swipa the Snake.

If Monte goes out without proper intel and cements himself one way or the other this summer then that'll hurt. However if he choose one path specifically a rebuild would clearly be the better option at this point. With the Fox trade Monte didn't **** can his future, nor did he necessarily evade trying to win now. He played it about as well as you can towards the middle. Now, if he goes out this summer and throws the kitchen sink at a Durant or someone, now that could crush this franchise for the next 5-6 years. The Kings can't afford to potentially trade hopelessness with teams like the Suns. That could be much, much worse.

As of now, Monte has given himself flexibility which is all you can ask for with the situation he was facing. LaVine has one more year and a PO on his contract. This idea that his contract is some albatross is a total misnomer. Even if Monte didn't do anything and cap space was the idea, 2027 is a possibility as long as Monte doesn't add too much long term salary. Stay the course, give Christe a training camp, if it fails, rebuild with those picks, youth, and cut some salary. It isn't that complicated unless Monte assumes like he did when he ran back the first beam team. Don't assume you're going to keep rising as is unless you were on the cusp. They never were. Good franchises maintain flexibility and the main way they do that is by developing home grown talent on favorable rookie contracts not overpaying via trade or contractually for other teams'. This franchise has failed for so long because they never got the idea of development and using players to strengths. If teams do those two things they'll always have some level of flexibility because they have assets.

 

[sactowndog]

I think you're about one mid off-season away from getting a victory lap (assuming Monte gets that chance), but I'm not sure you can put the Fox trade on McNair.

Fox turned his trade value to trash by "yes dear-ing" his way to San Antonio and ONLY SA, and I don't think it's a coincidence that we ended up with a player Vivek has been chasing through multiple Kings FOs.

If Fox was honest a few seasons ago, and if Vivek wasn't so dead set on Zach for eight years or whatever, we could have gotten a lot more for Swipa the Snake.

Part of what you say is true.

But my opinion is locking down the Kings cap space with a player who mostly overlaps the players you have and with a roster construction the Bulls already proved fails is largely why, IMO, the trade was so bad.

if Monte can’t act as GM and we got Zach based on Vivek then we need a GM with the gravitas to deal with him.

 

[TheMobb]

I think you're about one mid off-season away from getting a victory lap (assuming Monte gets that chance), but I'm not sure you can put the Fox trade on McNair.

Fox turned his trade value to trash by "yes dear-ing" his way to San Antonio and ONLY SA, and I don't think it's a coincidence that we ended up with a player Vivek has been chasing through multiple Kings FOs.

If Fox was honest a few seasons ago, and if Vivek wasn't so dead set on Zach for eight years or whatever, we could have gotten a lot more for Swipa the Snake.

Let’s not forget the 2 unprotected picks. I think everyone automatically projects the Spurs being a contender in 27 but that has yet to materialize. And who knows what the 31 Minny pick will look like.

 

[The_Jamal]

Part of what you say is true.

But my opinion is locking down the Kings cap space with a player who mostly overlaps the players you have and with a roster construction the Bulls already proved fails is largely why, IMO, the trade was so bad.

if Monte can’t act as GM and we got Zach based on Vivek then we need a GM with the gravitas to deal with him.

So in this hypothetical where Vivek forces us to trade for LaVine:

Vivek- "Zach LaVine is available, we are trading for him"

Monte- "No, it's a bad idea, we should do x"

Vivek- "I don't care, LaVine is the guy we're getting"

Should Monte just quit his job then? Get fired?

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Part of what you say is true.

But my opinion is locking down the Kings cap space with a player who mostly overlaps the players you have and with a roster construction the Bulls already proved fails is largely why, IMO, the trade was so bad.

if Monte can’t act as GM and we got Zach based on Vivek then we need a GM with the gravitas to deal with him.

The issue is that he probably doesn't want to hire a strong personality GM.....and that type wouldn't likely be interested anyways, based on what has happened within the organization for years.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

So in this hypothetical where Vivek forces us to trade for LaVine:

Vivek- "Zach LaVine is available, we are trading for him"

Monte- "No, it's a bad idea, we should do x"

Vivek- "I don't care, LaVine is the guy we're getting"

Should Monte just quit his job then? Get fired?

What would the top tier GM's in the league do, if in that situation? Just continue to be a yes man and act like it was all their own decision?

 

[The_Jamal]

What would the top tier GM's in the league do, if in that situation? Just continue to be a yes man and act like it was all their own decision?

The top GMs have actual control of the organization and owners who mostly stay out of the way. Show me a successful GM with a meddling owner

 

[gunks]

Part of what you say is true.

But my opinion is locking down the Kings cap space with a player who mostly overlaps the players you have and with a roster construction the Bulls already proved fails is largely why, IMO, the trade was so bad.

if Monte can’t act as GM and we got Zach based on Vivek then we need a GM with the gravitas to deal with him.

I don't disagree there, I just don't think that GM exists. Vivek is gonna Vivek.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

The top GMs have actual control of the organization and owners who mostly stay out of the way. Show me a successful GM with a meddling owner

Probably a big part of why Loucks and Wilcox walked away during an unfinished run at the post season. Unless we think it was just a coincidence (I don't)

 

[Turgenev]

It’s interesting --> I feel that the level of engagement in game threads and other Kings discussion has declined sharply this season – and the content on the board has mostly been dissatisfaction with the on-court product. Yet --> 51 people have voted. >80% think Monte should remain the GM next year. Moreover --> 55% have given a straight yes, he should stay vs <8% who give a straight no, he should go.

I voted that I think he should stay and can see +++ value in a number of his individual moves - but the body of work - at this stage - is it really there?

 

[hrdboild]

It’s interesting --> I feel that the level of engagement in game threads and other Kings discussion has declined sharply this season – and the content on the board has mostly been dissatisfaction with the on-court product. Yet --> 51 people have voted. >80% think Monte should remain the GM next year. Moreover --> 55% have given a straight yes, he should stay vs <8% who give a straight no, he should go.

I voted that I think he should stay and can see +++ value in a number of his individual moves - but the body of work - at this stage - is it really there?

Not gonna speak for anyone else, but I'm pretty indifferent to Monte staying or going at this point because I don't think Vivek is ever going to back off and let his GM make their own decisions. Mike Malone was fired in the exact same way that Mike Brown was. Monte said it was his decision but he didn't really offer much of an argument for why he supposedly decided to do it so I'm not sure that I buy it wasn't another Vivek mandate. It would be the same situation with another GM.

 

[sactowndog]

So in this hypothetical where Vivek forces us to trade for LaVine:

Vivek- "Zach LaVine is available, we are trading for him"

Monte- "No, it's a bad idea, we should do x"

Vivek- "I don't care, LaVine is the guy we're getting"

Should Monte just quit his job then? Get fired?

if he wants to be employable in a future job… yes. If you don’t have the balls to do your job then you need to find a new one. Not being able to influence Vivek is not an excuse to keep him. It’s further reason to fire him.