Shareef (MERGED)

#1
I here people say that Shareef is a typical good player on a bad team. I think it's harder to be a good player on a bad team than a good player on a good team.

If you are a good player on a bad team your opposition is targeting you and only you on the offensive end. On a good team the opposition has to consentrate on 4 or 5 players.

My point is the opposing team is consentrating on you defensively and you are still scoring 20 points thats impressive.
 
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#4
To a certain degree I agree with you, if the FG% and turnovers are respectable.

CaminoChaos said:
I here people say that Shareef is a typical good player on a bad team. I think it's harder to be a good player on a bad team than a good player on a good team.

If you are a good player on a bad team your opposition is targeting you and only you on the offensive end. On a good team the opposition has to consentrate on 4 or 5 players.

My point is the opposing team is consentrating on you defensively and you are still scoring 20 points thats impressive.
 
#6
So far i like what i see with SAR. Love seeing him run the floor and love when he gets the ball down low. He's got some nice moves, and once certian team members start making shots he's going to have even more room to work.
 
#7
I love Shareef, and I'm very happy to see him in a Kings uniform and look forward to watching him develop in this offense.

He was not a GREAT off-season aquisition - he was a good one. He still does not address what the Kings needed most so until some further changes are made I won't be 100% satisfied with his addition. That is nothing against Shareef however, right now he's our best player and I love to see him stick around for the long term.

Of course, right now, Brad Miller is our best point guard.:eek:
 
O

ONEZERO

Guest
#8
CaminoChaos said:
I here people say that Shareef is a typical good player on a bad team. I think it's harder to be a good player on a bad team than a good player on a good team.

If you are a good player on a bad team your opposition is targeting you and only you on the offensive end. On a good team the opposition has to consentrate on 4 or 5 players.

My point is the opposing team is consentrating on you defensively and you are still scoring 20 points thats impressive.
i dont get it. hows that a good thing now that hes with the kings?
 
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thesanityannex

Guest
#9
Rockin' in the Free World said:
He was not a GREAT off-season aquisition - he was a good one. He still does not address what the Kings needed most so until some further changes are made I won't be 100% satisfied with his addition.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. Shareef did address what we needed most, a replacement for Webber. Yes, defense was not exactly addressed, but that is hard to fill with just one player. I can only think of a few single players who can turn a team's awful defense into a respectable difference. If everyone here can buy into the team defense concept, we could go from awful to mediocre, which would be fine as long as the offense is firing on all cylinders.
 
#10
Yeah..I think I'm a little wishy-washy here too...in that respect he was a perfect addition. Guess I'm more happy with Shareef than I am with the team, still trying to figure out the composition of this ballclub. I wonder about our "team defense" strategy too, basic ball movement seems to torch this team, lots of open shooters.. oye, so many changes, I just need to stop analyzing for like another 2 months.

Right..like that's gonna happen though.:rolleyes:
 
#11
thesanityannex said:
I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. Shareef did address what we needed most, a replacement for Webber. Yes, defense was not exactly addressed, but that is hard to fill with just one player. I can only think of a few single players who can turn a team's awful defense into a respectable difference. If everyone here can buy into the team defense concept, we could go from awful to mediocre, which would be fine as long as the offense is firing on all cylinders.
I'm gonna have to disagree with your disagreement. The things Webber brought that needed to be replaced were heart, leadership and offensive direction. Abdur-Rahim is certainly playing well right now, but you cannot say he is bringing any of those things to the level that the Kings need. So I'll take the good but not GREAT offseason acquisition position.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#12
CaminoChaos said:
I here people say that Shareef is a typical good player on a bad team. I think it's harder to be a good player on a bad team than a good player on a good team.

If you are a good player on a bad team your opposition is targeting you and only you on the offensive end. On a good team the opposition has to consentrate on 4 or 5 players.

My point is the opposing team is consentrating on you defensively and you are still scoring 20 points thats impressive.
1) Shareef has done well during the first two games;

2) it has ALWAYS been easier to be a good player on a bad team, or closer to the truth, to LOOK like a good player on a bad team, because you are free to play your game and put up all the numbers you can get unfettered by considerations of team or moderation. When you are a good player on abad team, you do not need to sacrifice. You play the star role. When you switch over to a good team, abruptly you're no longer such a standout talent and you have to sacrifice your numbers and game for the benefi of the team. Not all can do that, and over the years there have been many many examples of guys who could not make the transition, and almost none of guys who join the good team and then see thier numbers explode (unless it be through normal youth/growing up). Basically if a guy is putting up good numbers for a good team you KNOW he can do it, if he's putting up good numbers for a bad team, you're not sure.
 
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C

Coach

Guest
#13
Webber had offensive direction? You mean like, "Hey teammates, I direct you to go to the basket because I'm about to launch an ill-advised 20 footer? ;)
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#16
Coach said:
Webber had offensive direction? You mean like, "Hey teammates, I direct you to go to the basket because I'm about to launch an ill-advised 20 footer? ;)
You really have to let that go. For 7 long years we were right at the top of the league in offense and the main guys directing the show were Vlade or Webb, whatever their other shortcomings. We outscored, outassisted and outshot team after team that had far better post options and perimeter slashers, and it was largely because we had the best passing frontcourt of its era, and two guys who could seize control of the game and entirely dictate offensive possessions.

You take that away, and you get what you have now. Confusion. Lack of leadership and control. No tone setter. No goto guy.

Reef's a good player, but he has never had much effect on his teammates games. He does his thing, but he doesn't control the game or set others up. He's not a floor general. Just a talented finisher.
 
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thesanityannex

Guest
#17
uolj said:
I'm gonna have to disagree with your disagreement. The things Webber brought that needed to be replaced were heart, leadership and offensive direction. Abdur-Rahim is certainly playing well right now, but you cannot say he is bringing any of those things to the level that the Kings need. So I'll take the good but not GREAT offseason acquisition position.
Webber had also been here for a while before he became the leader he was. I am hoping SAR can become that type of leader because it doesn't look like anyone is stepping up to the plate. He obviously can't do that now because he is new and must earn his place.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#18
Reef addresses something we never really had. Someone that can consistently score in the post, and take contact and get to the line at will.

That never really was Chris' game. I remember seeing a program about Chris and I thought what they said was interesting. Chris could have been one of the greatest PF's of all time if he played like one. They said that he maybe should have patterned his game after a guy like Karl Malone while instead he tried to play like Magic Johnson. I don't know if I agree but I thought it was pretty interesting and I can see the point.
 
#19
SacTownKid said:
Reef addresses something we never really had. Someone that can consistently score in the post, and take contact and get to the line at will.

That never really was Chris' game. I remember seeing a program about Chris and I thought what they said was interesting. Chris could have been one of the greatest PF's of all time if he played like one. They said that he maybe should have patterned his game after a guy like Karl Malone while instead he tried to play like Magic Johnson. I don't know if I agree but I thought it was pretty interesting and I can see the point.
I'm not sure what program that was, but it doesn't mesh with my recollection of Webber. He and Vlade were the Kings' post game (compare them to Miller to see the difference between having a post game and not) and they were why the Kings were playoff contenders.

The fact that the Kings have two of those players again is the best part of the Abdur-Rahim acquisition.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#21
SacTownKid said:
Reef addresses something we never really had. Someone that can consistently score in the post, and take contact and get to the line at will.

That never really was Chris' game. I remember seeing a program about Chris and I thought what they said was interesting. Chris could have been one of the greatest PF's of all time if he played like one. They said that he maybe should have patterned his game after a guy like Karl Malone while instead he tried to play like Magic Johnson. I don't know if I agree but I thought it was pretty interesting and I can see the point.
That was always somethng that was put on Webb from the outside -- i.e., I Joe Public think you can be the greatest post player of all time, but ou didn't so you failed. Maybe he could, maybe he could not. Considering he NEVER was a pure post player its an odd conclusion, but whatever.

Now for us, once upon a time Webb was a good post player. A great one? No, don't think he ever had enough variety. I would be open to the argument hat as a post scorer Reef is better than Webb was. But one huge difference was that Vlade and Webb were both extremely dangerous post presences not just because they could score down there, but they were constant threats to make terrific passes when they had the ball in or out of the paint. Reef may in fact be better at scoring from the post than Webb was -- he's certainly always been a potent talent down there. But he is not nearly the threat to dumnp it off and get OTHERS points at the same time. Even his passing in the preseason, while good to see, was really in LIEU of scoring. He was in pass mode rather than score mode. Has never shown the ability to start his offensive move sense the double and suddenly whip an amazing on the monye bounce pass to the open man. Makes him a weapon down there, but not a guy who can control the game or play the general from that, or any other, position. If you can stop Reef from scoring (not easy) you've largely stopped his effectiveness. Was never true of either Webb or Vlade down there.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#22
SacTownKid said:
Reef addresses something we never really had. Someone that can consistently score in the post, and take contact and get to the line at will.

That never really was Chris' game. I remember seeing a program about Chris and I thought what they said was interesting. Chris could have been one of the greatest PF's of all time if he played like one. They said that he maybe should have patterned his game after a guy like Karl Malone while instead he tried to play like Magic Johnson. I don't know if I agree but I thought it was pretty interesting and I can see the point.
That was always somethng that was put on Webb from the outside -- i.e., I Joe Public think you can be the greatest post player of all time, but you didn't so you failed. Maybe he could, maybe he could not. Considering he NEVER was a pure post player its an odd conclusion, but whatever.

Now for us, once upon a time Webb was a good post player. A great one? No, don't think he ever had enough variety. I would be open to the argument that as a post scorer Reef is better than Webb was. But one huge difference was that Vlade and Webb were both extremely dangerous post presences not just because they could score down there, but they were constant threats to make terrific passes when they had the ball in or out of the paint. Reef may in fact be better at scoring from the post than Webb was -- he's certainly always been a potent talent down there. But he is not nearly the threat to dumnp it off and get OTHERS points at the same time. Even his passing in the preseason, while good to see, was really in LIEU of scoring. He was in pass mode rather than score mode. Has never shown the ability to start his offensive move sense the double and suddenly whip an amazing on the monye bounce pass to the open man. Makes him a weapon down there, but not a guy who can control the game or play the general from that, or any other, position. If you can stop Reef from scoring (not easy) you've largely stopped his effectiveness. Was never true of either Webb or Vlade down there.
 
#23
Shareef just needs a chance.

You cannot judge a player's abiliby based purely on statistics. I have followed Shareef's career all along, and I have a few things I gotta get off my chest.

Shareef was cleary a SF while in Vancouver. They had "the Big Country" Bryant Reeves(a moderate player who got pushed out not by his opponents, but his failure to control his weight) already inside, and the executives and staffs, still being criticized by fans for picking the slow center over the quick Damon "the Mighty Mouse" Stoudamire, had always tried to initiate the offence with him. So surprisingly, Shareef had to share the #1 option with Reeves, which meant he had to clear out of the way and stay many times on the top of the key. That was not a good position for rebounding.

Later things changed a little and he was forced to go back and forth between 3 and 4. True, he was still playing post even as 3, but his opponents were mostly 3 and kept him away from the hoop, out of the reach for many defensive rebounds. Back then he wasn't as bulky as he is now, and was quick enough to guard most of the SF in the league. But he wasn't strong enough to box out the premiere PFs then, so he usually didn't guard PF even as 4. Most of the time, he was guarding 3.

Someone mentioned "the golden age of Atlanta." What golden days?! That was when his stats took a blow, not due to his lack of ability, but the team's reluctance to play a player who was cleary not happy with them. His rebounding rose a bit because he was so cut out of the offense system that he had more time to go under and try to rebound. What is worse is that Atlanta, like Vancouver before, had no help inside. If you're not Rodman, you probably will have hard time rebounding when it's only you versus 3 opponents under the hoop. Atlanta didn't have anyone other than Shareef to score down low, so they basically didn't, which blew up much chance of offensive rebounds. Many times their forwards, again other than Shareef, got boxed out by their opponents and lost defensive rebounds. So continued Shareef's misery days.

Portland? You know what happened there.

My point is, Shareef is not a dominant rebounder, but at worst he is still better than average. He just never got a chance. Ever. Some say he couldn't lead, but he had NOTHING to lead. NOTHING. Of all the teammates he had in Vancouver, Bibby was the best ever, and he was a rookie then! In Atlanta, the team itself was lost and didn't have any time to pay any attention to Shareef. Portland just messed up and picked wrong talents to patronize. In all, a very few before him have had such a bad luck in teams as SAR.

The best trait of SAR, and sometimes I think it might be also his worst for his own good, is that he doesn't blame others. Never in Vancouver had he complained, whinning "my teammates suck," "I have no help," etc etc. He didn't complain about coaches, nor did he ever, EVER pointed a finger at the front office(whom I entirely blame the failure of Vancouver Grizzlies). He just played on, quietly. Ask anyone in Vancouver. They might not have any fondness for their old team, but everyone praises Shareef. He was not only amazing, but just as classy.

I saw one post about him becoming easier to defend if he was to get the ball all the times. Nothing could be further from the truth! This guy can pass, and he will! One of the things that he did so great back in Vancouver was drawing defense towards him just so that he can pass it to an outside shooter(but they just couldn't sink it...). Even as a rookie, he was better than any of his peers. He was so good that sometimes I had hoped that Vancouver hadn't drafted him. And I was living in Vancouver back then!

Nobody should question his scoring ability, and never should his rebounding skill be doubted. He just needs a chance to lead. I like Bibby as much as any of the players in the league, but given a chance, you might actually end up calling Kings "Reef's team" next year.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#25
might start calling it "Reef's team" this year. But, I think people will give him a chance.

Oh yeah, and Welcome to all the Reef fans now coming on to the board, it's great to have you here!
 
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thesanityannex

Guest
#27
It's too early for him to come in and call it "his team". Time will tell though. He seems like a quiet, reserved type guy. Anyone know if he is vocal enough to be a leader, or has ever been a leader type?
 
#28
Bricklayer said:
Reef's a good player, but he has never had much effect on his teammates games. He does his thing, but he doesn't control the game or set others up. He's not a floor general. Just a talented finisher.
If you remember - before coming to Sacramento - that was the rap on Webber.

Talented player, but a loser and not clutch. He's no leader.

Geez, look what happened?!

Let me tell you - Webber wouldn't have made Vancouver or Atlanta successful. In fact, Jordan wouldn't have gotten them out of the lottery. The only player that could would have been Shaq.

The teams were garbage. The coaches were worse. You can't have success with no system.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#29
I have merged the thread started by kiparking into this one. Just a note to new members: You DON'T need to start a new thread to post comments about something that's already being discussed.

As active as Kingsfans.com is, the thread format is critical. Please, look at the existing threads FIRST before starting a new one.

Thanks!

GO KINGS!!!!!
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#30
thesanityannex said:
I'm hoping to call it Reef's team after the all-star break this year.
It doesn't matter what you - or I - or even the Sacramento Bee calls the team.

;)

If Reef is going to step up as the leader, I'm hoping to hear THE TEAM say it.

:D