Reviewing the 2004 draft

[cfechter]

I didn't want to start a new thread so I'm posting this in the K-mart bandwagon thread.

If you take a look at the 2004 nba draft and had to do it over again, you could make a strong argument that he would currently go #3 - behind only Dwight Howard and Emeka Okafor

Take a look at the draft at this link:

http://www.nba.com/draft2004/

Any thoughts on this???q

 

[VF21]

Note: I thought this was a great question, cfechter, and worthy of its own thread so I split it off.

 

[SacTownKid]

Top ten for sure, don't know about #3.

 

[SLAB]

Man, at the time I was so heavy on the draft Anderson Varjao bandwagon
it wasn't even funny.

He's a top 5-7 talent in that draft, and we stold him at 26...Now that is nice.

 

[Bricklayer]

Its hard to tell because so many of those guys are still developing, but if I had to have a guy to win one game right now here today, he'd probably be 3 or 4. Which ain;t bad.

Downt he line we'll have to see. Will Livingston, Harris and Telfair eventually turn into the next generation of great PGs? Will Deng and Jefferson take off? Hard to say where Kevin will fall by the end. Lottery for sure I would think though.

As an aside, Varejao would have been a very solid pick at that spot. I did not know it at the time of course -- knew nothing about the kid. But he's a good energy big off the bench, and maybe a starter one day. Hard to find those at #26.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Man, at the time I was so heavy on the draft Anderson Varjao bandwagon
it wasn't even funny.

Sideshow Bob has turned out to be a decent role player for the Cavs.

 

[PT Cruiser 9ROC]

Its hard to tell because so many of those guys are still developing, but if I had to have a guy to win one game right now here today, he'd probably be 3 or 4. Which ain;t bad.

Downt he line we'll have to see. Will Livingston, Harris and Telfair eventually turn into the next generation of great PGs? Will Deng and Jefferson take off? Hard to say where Kevin will fall by the end. Lottery for sure I would think though.

As an aside, Varejao would have been a very solid pick at that spot. I did not know it at the time of course -- knew nothing about the kid. But he's a good energy big off the bench, and maybe a starter one day. Hard to find those at #26.

I agree. It's still too early to look to "do-over" the draft. Of course, if I had to, Martin would definitely go #3 for me. And given that his ceiling for growth, to me, seems quite a bit higher than Emeka's, I'd even go so far as to take him at #2. But in addition to those players mentioned before, guys like Luol Deng, Jameer Nelson, his buddy Delonte West, and Iggy over in Philly have been solid contributors to their teams very quickly.

Even though the 2004 draft may not have produced the "instant HoFer" wave that the 2003 draft class seems to be headed toward, it's certainly one of the deepest and most talented in a while.

 

[SLAB]

Another name I'd take in front of Kev is Josh Smith.

That guy is going to be an all-around beast one day.

 

[PT Cruiser 9ROC]

Another name I'd take in front of Kev is Josh Smith.

That guy is going to be an all-around beast one day.

Doh! Knew I forgot to mention a couple of guys. I seriously doubt that I'd take Josh over Kevin, especially at this point. Josh Smith is still operating on potential in my eyes, whereas Kevin's already having a MAJOR effect on his team. Another major exclusion I made was Ben Gordon. How could I forget the little guy? And there's also a bit of hope to be had in the future of J.R. Smith up in Denver.

 

[Bricklayer]

And Iggy.

Lot of young guys with considerable upside in that draft.

 

[supamari0]

Doh! Knew I forgot to mention a couple of guys. I seriously doubt that I'd take Josh over Kevin, especially at this point. Josh Smith is still operating on potential in my eyes, whereas Kevin's already having a MAJOR effect on his team. Another major exclusion I made was Ben Gordon. How could I forget the little guy? And there's also a bit of hope to be had in the future of J.R. Smith up in Denver.

If you're going to have hope for JR Smith, its fair to have hope for Josh Smith, although I'm not sure I'd take either over Kevin Martin at this point.

J-Smooth gives you great dunks and jumpshots but nothing else. For a guy as athletic as he is, its ridiculous that he doesn't post up and drive to the hoop more often. Instead he'll waste time shooting jump shots and 3 pointers when he should be slashing to the basket. Also, he could be a great defender if he just put some effort into it.

The same criticism goes for the other Smith, but at least he's a decent 3 point shooter. JR should also be cutting to the hole more often instead of camping out on the 3 point line, but I suppose its a little more acceptable for him because 1) he's a better 3 point shooter and 2) Denver has no other decent shooters so he's almost forced to stand out there to give them a legitimate outside threat.

It's really early for Kevin Martin since its his first full season so we'll see if he can sustain the performance he's having but the early results look great. He's got a better all around game than the two guys above despite not being nearly as big or as athletic as the aformentioned Smiths. The jury's still out on all players from the 2004 draft but Martin is definitely turning into a nice surprise.

 

[yanon]

I would choose Kevin Martin with the fifth pick.

 

[BMiller52]

If you're going to have hope for JR Smith, its fair to have hope for Josh Smith, although I'm not sure I'd take either over Kevin Martin at this point.

J-Smooth gives you great dunks and jumpshots but nothing else. For a guy as athletic as he is, its ridiculous that he doesn't post up and drive to the hoop more often. Instead he'll waste time shooting jump shots and 3 pointers when he should be slashing to the basket. Also, he could be a great defender if he just put some effort into it.

The same criticism goes for the other Smith, but at least he's a decent 3 point shooter. JR should also be cutting to the hole more often instead of camping out on the 3 point line, but I suppose its a little more acceptable for him because 1) he's a better 3 point shooter and 2) Denver has no other decent shooters so he's almost forced to stand out there to give them a legitimate outside threat.

It's really early for Kevin Martin since its his first full season so we'll see if he can sustain the performance he's having but the early results look great. He's got a better all around game than the two guys above despite not being nearly as big or as athletic as the aformentioned Smiths. The jury's still out on all players from the 2004 draft but Martin is definitely turning into a nice surprise.

Kevin is bigger than JR Smith and he's really athletic too.

Anyway I think so far I'd take Kevin over anyone but maybe Dwight Howard and Josh Smith(maybe over him too). Okafor hasn't impressed me that much with all his injuries. I'm not sure why everyone's saying they'd take Iggy or Ben Gordan or Jameer Nelson or Livingston over KMoney. Those guys are all hyped up sure, but what they actually done yet? K has been scoring 25 ppg on a great FG%. Ben Gordon has been a streaky spark plug combo guard who loves to shoot the ball. Jameer is pretty good but he's not Kevin. Iggy's knock is he can't score, he's putting up like 10 PPG and Philly fans are kind of mad about it. Livingston has the potential tag on him but I don't see what's so great about him. I see a stick figure that can make some nice passes and is scared to shoot the ball.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

J-Smooth gives you great dunks and jumpshots but nothing else. For a guy as athletic as he is, its ridiculous that he doesn't post up and drive to the hoop more often. Instead he'll waste time shooting jump shots and 3 pointers when he should be slashing to the basket. Also, he could be a great defender if he just put some effort into it.

You do realize that Josh Smith averages better than two blocks a game for his career, right? As a small forward?

 

[yanon]

B52,

I think some players have higher all around potential than Kevin Martin, who is mainly a shooter. It is still too early to tell who will turn out to be the better players since some take longer to realize their potential than others. Two years from now, we will see who are the true gems of that draft class.

 

[supamari0]

You do realize that Josh Smith averages better than two blocks a game for his career, right? As a small forward?

I am but that sentence was an indictment of his offensive game. Also, he's great coming off the weak side and blocking shots and he uses his athleticism to make some incredible plays but the point is he's not consistent. He could be on the all-nba defensive team if he worked harder on the defensive side of the game.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Two blocks a game is two blocks a game. Artest is the exception to the rule; a small forward isn't supposed to be a "strong side" shot blocker... that's what power forwards and centers are for.

And, qualifier about "offense only" or not, I'd still submit that Smith offers as much as Martin, if not more. Smith may not be as polished, but Smith didn't play three years of college, either.

Apropos of nothing, I just realized that Jarvis Hayes played a year at Western Carolina before transferring to (pee on them dawgs) UGA... I wonder what that team would have been like with the two of them?

 

[BMiller52]

B52,

I think some players have higher all around potential than Kevin Martin, who is mainly a shooter. It is still too early to tell who will turn out to be the better players since some take longer to realize their potential than others. Two years from now, we will see who are the true gems of that draft class.

I am so sick of hearing how Kevin's mainly a shooter. He's a good athlete, a good defender, and he's great moving without the ball. And he's got an inch or 2 on most SGs. Only a shooter my...

 

[yanon]

I am so sick of hearing how Kevin's mainly a shooter. He's a good athlete, a good defender, and he's great moving without the ball. And he's got an inch or 2 on most SGs. Only a shooter my...

Being a shooter doesn't preclude a player from being atheletic. Kevin is a good defender? That is questionable. I want some hard proofs like All-NBA defensive team (doesn't matter 1st, 2nd, or 3rd) or at least among top 10 in the steal category.

I want to see Kevin Martin improves in other areas of his game (assist and rebounding skills ) or becomes a even better scorer (more varieties in his offensive arsenals--harder to stop) before I would rate him among the elite SGs of NBA.

Many Kings fans look at the Kings players with purplish-tinted glasses. Thus, they tend to overrate the Kings players.

 

[fnordius]

Being a shooter doesn't preclude a player from being atheletic. Kevin is a good defender? That is questionable. I want some hard proofs like All-NBA defensive team (doesn't matter 1st, 2nd, or 3rd) or at least among top 10 in the steal category.

Well gee, what do you know, he is #8 in the NBA in the steals category (and Artest is still #1). Bibby and SAR are tied for 23rd. Kind of nice to have 4 of our 6 main guys in the top 25, eh? Or 4 of 5, considering that Brad is out injured...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbasteals&league=nba&sort=stls&season=2007

 

[Smills91]

Another name I'd take in front of Kev is Josh Smith.

That guy is going to be an all-around beast one day.

D'oh, I'm one person NOT on the Josh Smith bandwagon. He blocks shots incredible for a SF type but the rest of his game is below average. He shoots poorly, isn't an intelligent basketball player and really gets by on his athletically freak nature. I'm not really impressed by him, he may become a solid starter, but right now overall, he's not very good on a team that hasn't been good in forever.

 

[cfechter]

I also agree with Brick that it's probably too early to tell - you have to give a draft 5 years to really judge the impact of its players - that being said, as it stands now I think Kevin is #3 in the draft and you could probably make the argument he may even be better than Okafor.

By the way, going to the Kings/Grizz game tonight. I got seats 3 rows back tonight!!!!! Got 'em at a charity auction for $200.

 

[JSin]

There are a lot of guys I would grab over Kevin. All PGs take 3-4 years to develop and Livingston is going to be the bes of the bunch. I would take him over Martin easy. Plus Josh Smith too. I'm a fan.

 

[hammystyle]

What a great question. I hadn't really looked at this draft, there is a lot of interesting talent.

Being a shooter doesn't preclude a player from being atheletic. Kevin is a good defender? That is questionable. I want some hard proofs like All-NBA defensive team (doesn't matter 1st, 2nd, or 3rd) or at least among top 10 in the steal category.

All-NBA defensive team doesn't mean you are a good defender, it means you are the best defender in the league. Steals are a part of defense, but you can be top 10 in steals and still not be a good defender. If you want hard evidence, watch the games. Is Kevin keeping his man in front of him, making it hard for him to get open shots and playing good help defense? That's what makes a good defender.

Here's how I'd pick 'em:
1) Howard - Obvious
2) Emeka - Pretty obvious
3) Deng - I think he's a stud, he'll blow up.
4) Martin - Its interesting, I honestly don't know how much higher Smith's or Iggy's upside is, but I think Kevin has a better chance of reaching his. He's humble, confident, and has a tremendous work ethic. He has mental strength. He's pretty amazing right now and should get better.
5) Josh Smith - Pretty freaky combo of length and athleticism. Any skill though?
6) Iggy - Martin has a killer instinct. Iggy don't.
7) Nelson - He's better than Harris.
8) Livingston - Does he stay healthy? Will he ever shoot?


I could pretty much rearrange #4-8 all around though. Biedrins, Harris, JR Smith, Telfair, even maybe Swift they could all sneak up there too. Then you have guys like Tony Allen, Delonte West, and Udrih who have proved to be pretty solid players already. What a great draft.

 

[BMiller52]

There are a lot of guys I would grab over Kevin. All PGs take 3-4 years to develop and Livingston is going to be the bes of the bunch. I would take him over Martin easy. Plus Josh Smith too. I'm a fan.

Livingston is a mediocre overhyped HS played picked on "potential" and he's a stick figure. Kevin's putting up 24 PPG on 55% shooting. Come back and talk to me when Livingston does half that. Livingston sucks.

 

[nbrans]

It's still early, but my list is:

1. Howard - no brainer
2. Okafor - looks rejuvinated this season
3. Deng - I've been a Deng doubter in the past, but I think he's able to do just a bit more on the floor than Martin, plus he's only 21.
4. Martin - Not bad for a #26 pick
5. Nelson - Best point guard in the draft. He's having some turnover problems, but is shooting an insane 61% from the field.
6. Gordon - When he's on he's incredible, but he's one of the most inconsistent players in the league, and he can't find ways to help when his shot isn't going down.
7. Josh Smith - I think it still remains to be seen whether he gets it together. He could be a late bloomer like Joe Johnson or a tantalizing bust, like Rodney White.
8. Livingston - People talk about his potential.... I don't see it.
9. Iguodala - Awesome athlete, good defender, decent shooter.. but unable to create on offense. Unless his handle improves I can't see him getting all that much better.
10. JR Smith - Total headcase, but there aren't many athletes at his level who can shoot lights out from three. If he can get it together he may be the best of them all.

 

[cfechter]

Livingston is a mediocre overhyped HS played picked on "potential" and he's a stick figure. Kevin's putting up 24 PPG on 55% shooting. Come back and talk to me when Livingston does half that. Livingston sucks.

Well put, BMiller. You keep hearing about Livingston's "potential" but he just hasn't done much since coming into the league.

I think based on production Kevin is #2 or #3. The rest, while some are productive nba players, just haven't met his production level.

 

[Troy]

I am so sick of hearing how Kevin's mainly a shooter. He's a good athlete, a good defender, and he's great moving without the ball. And he's got an inch or 2 on most SGs. Only a shooter my...

Exactly, he is not a "Peja" although he sure has been making his shots and it very solid from the line. He sure has added the drive the basket and make it and/or draw the foul this season. Also his defense is good as he is so quick he keeps in front of his man. I'm loving what I see from Kevin and to think we got him with pick #26 from a small school is even better, way to to GP!

With his size, length, quickness, desire, great shooting, this kid is really setting the NBA on fire and we need him to do this for us so bad.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

7. Josh Smith - I think it still remains to be seen whether he gets it together. He could be a late bloomer like Joe Johnson or a tantalizing bust, like Rodney White.

That's a logical impossibility: White was never as good as Smith already is.

I can't believe that people are talking about a twenty year-old small forward who's averaging fourteen points, nearly seven rebounds and nearly two blocks like he's a scrub.

 

[nbrans]

That's a logical impossibility: White was never as good as Smith already is.

I can't believe that people are talking about a twenty year-old small forward who's averaging fourteen points, nearly seven rebounds and nearly two blocks like he's a scrub.

Actually, had Rodney White been playing for a worse team than Denver in 2004 he might have put up similar numbers. He put up insane offensive numbers off the bench: 7.5 points in 13 minutes. But he always seemed to add up to than less than the sum of his parts, and he bounced out.

But that's neither here nor there. Smith makes things happen with his athleticism, and he's a great rebounder and shotblocker for his position, but in order to beat out the guys higher up on the list he needs to figure out the offense. His shooting percentage has declined from 46% on 8 shots to 43% on 9.7 shots and now 39% on 12.1 shots. He also doesn't get to the line like a player with his athleticism should.

He's a nice player and a guy who makes things happen (when his head is in the game), but until his offense improves I can't see putting him ahead of Martin, Nelson or Gordon.