Report: Artest likely to remain with Kings next season

[bench_blob]

I am just going to point out our defense is worse than Denver's, and we have Artest. I completely do not blame Denver for being unwilling to give up Kleiza for Artest. There is no guarantee that a) It would make them better, and b)That Artest would not completely lose it due to the lack of oxygen. His brain is fragile as it is.

I could not disagree more. One of Artest's problems with us, is that besides K-Mart, there are no real ballers who can play at his level. So Ron-Ron has turned into a ball hog for lack of better options.

If he played with AI and Carmelo, he would not have the opportunity to monopolize the ball like he does with us, and he'd play to his strengths, which is locking opponents down, causing havoc on defense, frustrating the opponents best scorer.

AI is over 30, and they have other vets too, the Nuggets should have rolled the dice and made the trade. Once they get bounced in the 1st round, it will be become that much more obvious.

 

[Arkitect]

I could not disagree more. One of Artest's problems with us, is that besides K-Mart, there are no real ballers who can play at this level. So Ron-Ron has turned into a ball hog for lack of better options.

If he played with AI and Carmelo, he would not have the opportunity to monopolize the ball like he does with us, and he'd play to his strengths, which is locking opponents down, causing havoc on defense, frustrating the opponents best scorer.

AI is over 30, and they have other vets too, the Nuggets should have rolled the dice and made the trade. Once they get bounced in the 1st round, it will be become that much more obvious.

I agree they should have made the trade and rolled the dice. But I also don't blame them for not making it. While it is possible that Ron would play nice with others and give up his scoring for Carmelo and AI, it is also possible he would not be happy playing second fiddle. In which case you not only have the problem of him playing the level of defense he is capable of, but also the problem of discontent in the locker room. Ron has said publicly that he thinks he is at the level of a Kobe Bryant. I don't think his ego would handle it well being demoted to third option on a team barely making the playoffs. There was plenty of reason for Denver to play hardball.

 

[AyeCarly]

I am just going to point out our defense is worse than Denver's, and we have Artest. I completely do not blame Denver for being unwilling to give up Kleiza for Artest. There is no guarantee that a) It would make them better, and b)That Artest would not completely lose it due to the lack of oxygen. His brain is fragile as it is.

Their defense isn't better than ours they allow 106.2 PPG (PA stat), while we allow 104.4 PPG. And they have a former defensive player of the year in Camby. The reason their record is better is they score 110 PPG (PF stat, from http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/standings) which makes up for their defense.

 

[D13]

...The big reason Denver didn't cough up Kleinas was at trade time Ron was still talking of opting out this summer.

 

[uolj]

Their defense isn't better than ours they allow 106.2 PPG (PA stat), while we allow 104.4 PPG. And they have a former defensive player of the year in Camby. The reason their record is better is they score 110 PPG (PF stat, from http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/standings) which makes up for their defense.

You're confusng points allowed per game with defense. The nuggets play at a faster pace and allow their opponents more possessions than other teams, so they will obviously allow more points per game. You can't just look at that stat as a determination of defensive ability.

One attempt to measure defensive ability is Hollinger's defensive efficiency rating. In that rating the Nuggets are 9th and the Kings are 26th: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...ba/hollinger/teamstats?sort=defeff&league=nba

 

[Bricklayer]

I could not disagree more. One of Artest's problems with us, is that besides K-Mart, there are no real ballers who can play at his level. So Ron-Ron has turned into a ball hog for lack of better options.

Ron did not just turn into a ballhog when he arrived here. That is missing a lot of the history right there. He actually bailed on Indiana precisely because he wanted to be a ballhog and they woudln't let him. Because he was as good as Kobe etc.

And yes, Denver should have made the move. But not wanting to risk your 50 win type team on the instability of Ron Artest is never completely off the wall (not wanting to move Kleiza because he is a family friend of the owner or whatever certainly is however).

 

[FakeInjury]

Retaining Ron Artest is a great idea. But we dont have any other thugs who roll like he does, or did. I'm not sure how illegal ron lives anymore. Either way, this team doesn't have what it takes to win 50+games, let alone four 7 game series against other 50+ win teams. Ron is a special caliber player, And it would serve the Kings theoretically to trade him next season if he doesn't opt. I see this happening...Ron opts to re-sign with the Kings for a 3year 9million per year, but he has a player option after every year, because he likes the attention and the questions about his status.

 

[Gary]

I have said it all along that I don't believe Artest will stay, and I haven't changed my mind..

Artest and his agent will say anything to bloat Artest's value. Do forget how slimy agents are. They say one thing but mean something else. They tell their players to say they are happy even if they are not. A lot of GMs out there are frightened to sign Artest to a long term deal because of nobody knowing what might happen to him and his sanity. As long as they paint this pretty picture of Artest happy playing for a losing team and making about 5 million less then his value then the potential for a team to take a chance on him increases. When it's all said and done it's all about the $$$$$, and Artest knows he is underpaid as well as his agent.

I had posted this in another thread but I will do the same here..

If you were Artest would you take 8.5mil for ONE year which is guaranteed?

OR;

If you were Artest would you sign with another team at perhaps close to the same amount you are making right now, but for a longer term... 5yrs 45mil?

It's all about the guaranteed money folks. If where I work right now said I have a year to prove myself and that they don't know for sure they would have a position next year AND THEN another company walks by and says they will give me five years of security, I would tell the one year people to blow it out their *** and go with the people offering me something long term.

There comes a point when the Maloofs' say they want to keep Artest, and re-sign him, but how long will they wait? Until his contract expires then lowball him? If they were true in saying they thought Artest was a part of our future then they would sign him already.

 

[fnordius]

One attempt to measure defensive ability is Hollinger's defensive efficiency rating. In that rating the Nuggets are 9th and the Kings are 26th: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...ba/hollinger/teamstats?sort=defeff&league=nba

While I'm not big on Hollinger stats, something I noticed recently is that the Kings poor defense and ball hogginess have led to an almost complete statistical collapse.

If you look at the usual measures of offense, like shooting percentages, the Kings look perfectly decent. They also look very good at anything related to FTs (thanks, Kev!). But take a look at differentials...
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/b...diff&conference=NBA&year=season_2007&sort=245

As you can see, if you just go through the various stat categories, the Kings come out dandy in FTs, and neutral in defensive boards. They also commit 0.7 less PFs a game (again, thanks to Kevin). In the other 13 categories, they lose. While the lack of offensive boards has to be considered an offensive shortcoming, in at least 11 of the failing categories the problems are defensive. In a nutshell, the Kings shoot well, but not as well as they let their opponents, from any range. Their opponents get to take more shots, from all ranges. Their opponents also get considerably more blocks and more steals. Their opponents force more turnovers. Their opponents get more assists. All of this points to categorically weak D, you could not lose the differentials in FG%, FGA, FGM, 3P%, 3PA, 3PM, TO, assists, blocks and steals from some non-defensive weakness.

I thought this noteworthy because I never imagined that bad D would be likely to decimate a team in 2/3 of their differential stat categories, but so it is.

 

[hrdboild]

I don't know that you can look at differentials and say that defense is the problem. Anything related to shooting percentages is as much of a problem with the offense as it is with the defense. Losing the differential in steals is an indication of poor ball handling as much as poor defense. Actually if you just look at the SPG we're near the top of the pack. Similarly, a negative differential in blocks could indicate a tendency to get blocked on the offensive end. Considering our main scoring threats are all perimeter players, it's not all that surprising we'd be losing in that category. I'm not saying our shotblocking isn't a problem, we've all seen that it is. But just looking at differentials doesn't really cast the blame in one direction or another. For instance, Phoenix is on the bottom of the list for offensive rebounding differential and second for both fg% and 3p%. It's not that they're particularly bad on the boards, there's just less misses to grab. Same thing with Boston. Our offense has not been efficient, and our defense has not been successful in adequately slowing down our opponents. The record will show you that. I don't think these stats tell you any more than that or cast the blame more on our defense than our offense. Our assist to turnover ratio is the worst in the league. If you're looking for glaring statistical oddities, I'd start there. That's a big part of the problem.

 

[fnordius]

I don't know that you can look at differentials and say that defense is the problem. Anything related to shooting percentages is as much of a problem with the offense as it is with the defense...

I don't think these stats tell you any more than that or cast the blame more on our defense than our offense. Our assist to turnover ratio is the worst in the league. If you're looking for glaring statistical oddities, I'd start there. That's a big part of the problem.

I felt the same way at first glance. I didn't think that bad D would affect so many categories, and it took a fair amount of staring at those numbers to change my mind.

Anything related to shooting percentages may go both ways, but you need to compare your own team to other teams to have context. Despite ball hogging, and the shot selection problems that usually go with it, our shooting % is not bad, 10th overall, and 12th for 3s. Lots of teams are going to the playoffs with worse shooting. And we're in 8th for points scored. So, by all the the usual (simple) methods of judging offense, we're above average.

The assists are horrible, as are the TO, and those probably indicate a second problem, which was why I broke it out into categories of bad D and ball hogging. Bad D can give your opponents a lot of assists, but it can't limit you to the 2nd worst assists in the NBA yourself. We do both.

As for opponent FGA, FGM, FG%, 3PA, 3PM, 3P%, and points allowed, we are in the bottom 1/3 of the NBA in every one of those categories. We are also in the bottom 1/3 for blocks. THAT tells us, clearly and unmistakably, that our defense sucks. For steals, we are ranked #8, but performing at the B+ level on steals isn't going to change much when you're at the D+ to F level in the other 8 defensive categories.

 

[upinsmoke]

Does anyone know where we rank in points in the paint?

 

[fnordius]

Does anyone know where we rank in points in the paint?

I don't. But I know that the Kings were among the worst in that category last year, and this year probably isn't very different.
http://www.82games.com/pointsinpaint.htm

 

[upinsmoke]

I don't. But I know that the Kings were 4th worst in that category last year, and this year probably isn't very different.
http://www.82games.com/pointsinpaint.htm

SIGH

How nice it would be to have a imposing center.

 

[fnordius]

SIGH

How nice it would be to have a imposing center.

Brad is the #10 center in the NBA in terms of boards, #8 for points/game, #23 for blocks, and #1 for assists. I know that you don't like the guy, but if I were you, I'd be looking more at our starting PF: #21 for blocks, #24 for rebounds, and #28 for points and #28 for assists. Since Hayes lost his starting job in Houston, that makes him the least productive starting PF in the NBA. A better defending center would be great, but still wouldn't be able to play two positions at once.

 

[KingsFan93]

Would someone have access to some kind of data showing NBA Players' defensive matchups night in and night out?

That would be a good way to compare players' defensive efficiency

 

[1kingzfan]

Once again, and I don't know what went on behind the scenes or in team practices or how uncoachable he might have been, but stats in this thread make a strong case for having kept Justin Williams and giving him a little more time to develop.

Although he couldn't shoot a lick, he gave us additional front line athleticism, rebounding, and shot-blocking. He altered a lot of shots too, when he got his chance to play. Houston gave him a 10-day shot too, and then released him, but they are in a different place than us and want to win now, thus no time to develop Justin for this year's run.

And Brad would be a greater force on D with a decent, imposing force along side him. A few years ago when the Kings went on that run with Webber out and Vlade and Brad were tearing it up, it was Vlade that made Brad better. Even though Vlade was never athletic, he was crafty on D, took up a lot of space underneath, and certainly altered his fair share of shots. And he did that all while being a great distributor of the ball on the other end and a threat to score with his back to the basket.

Mikki has been OK this year, and I have appreciated his effort and hustle, but we could do better.

 

[ZZE916]

Although he couldn't shoot a lick, he gave us additional front line athleticism, rebounding, and shot-blocking. He altered a lot of shots too, when he got his chance to play. Houston gave him a 10-day shot too, and then released him, but they are in a different place than us and want to win now, thus no time to develop Justin for this year's run.

This sounds like he could be the Duane Causwell of the 21st century. I still do not believe this guy is anything more than a potential backup player, no matter how many You Tube videos I'm shown.

 

[upinsmoke]

Brad is the #10 center in the NBA in terms of boards, #8 for points/game, #23 for blocks, and #1 for assists. I know that you don't like the guy, but if I were you, I'd be looking more at our starting PF: #21 for blocks, #24 for rebounds, and #28 for points and #28 for assists. Since Hayes lost his starting job in Houston, that makes him the least productive starting PF in the NBA. A better defending center would be great, but still wouldn't be able to play two positions at once.

I have stated before we might have one of the worst starting pf's in the nba. If moore was a back up it would be great if he was no so overpaid. Im tired of other teams laying the ball up right in front of Brad and Mikki. Brad has lost the passion for the game here, its obvious.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

he's going to opt out for sure. he's make peanuts for his skill level. it's just his wacky side that is scaring teams away. if he had his head on straight on focused on his talent, every team would want this guy. i believe we couldn't trade him at the deadline because teams didn't want to mortgage their future on a .5 yr rental.

 

[fnordius]

Would someone have access to some kind of data showing NBA Players' defensive matchups night in and night out?

That would be a good way to compare players' defensive efficiency

I don't think we're going to see that. There are figures kept which are kind of close to what you're talking about, but sometimes a player will guard three or four guys, who play different positions, in the course of one game. Nobody regularly keeps track of that. The closest you're going to see would probably be something along these lines:
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708SAC5.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708SAC.HTM

Neither of those isolate defensive performance very well, they tend to look at performance as a whole. There have been a few attempts to keep better track of defensive contributions during playoffs, for example,
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/basketball/nba/specials/playoffs/2005/05/04/defense/
...but those have been few and far between.

 

[Spike]

Brad has lost the passion for the game here, its obvious.

Brad is the #10 center in the NBA in terms of boards, #8 for points/game, #23 for blocks, and #1 for assists.

I dunno, doesn't seem that obvious to me.

 

[Warhawk]

Back to the original question:

I think he stays. Very few teams can offer more than the MLE. Ron's trade value also goes up since he no longer would have the option at the end of the year - teams know exactly when his contract ends. I think he stays and gets traded this summer.

 

[fnordius]

This sounds like he could be the Duane Causwell of the 21st century.

I basically agree. And, after 16 years, most of the franchise shot blocking records set by Causwell still stand. If we got another Causwell, the problem with that would be.... what?

 

[1kingzfan]

My whole thing with Justin is merely that, if he COULD have developed further, he would be a nice piece and a potential defensive upgrade. We are sorely lacking in athleticism at the 4/5, and no matter how you feel about the skills vs athleticsm debate, all would have to agree that we need SOME measure of athletic upgrade on the front line. The number of offensive weapons the Kings currently have is not limited, and the league stats appear to back that up further.

In the end, not sure we need a Dwight Howard (although it sure would great wouldn't it?). Even looking at some past NBA champions, having a great offensive center is not necessarily a necessity. However, having a solid defender/rebounder looks like a needed piece at the 5 and should be a focal point for our rebuild.

 

[upinsmoke]

If we played Spencer at the five and brad the four i think it would show great results because Millers greatest strenght is shooting the midrang J, finding cutters and being in position to grab the rebound. Ron can HELP make us contenders with just a little more tinkering. John Salmons should be traded because he is so inconsistant coming off the bench one night he playes great the next he can get off a shot.