Regarding closure of playoff threads

#34
Players would lose an estimated 35% of their salaries Next year if they didn’t play this out. That is big money
You take the median salary of the NBA player take 35% of that and divide it by the median annual income of the working Joe and realize how many years that represents.......
 
#36
A lot of players felt like resuming the season at all was taking attention away from the fight for reform and equal treatment under the law for all people. We had a moment this summer when we were all stuck at home with no sports, no bars, no movie theaters and people were engaged and paying attention to the severity of the need for reform to an extent that I haven't seen in my lifetime. The 2020 NBA championship is not all that significant in that context. If the players feel like it's more important to take the focus off basketball again, I think that's their right and while there will be financial consequences for that decision, what we're dealing with on a national level is a matter of life and death for millions of US citizens. We can't shrug off our responsibility to get this right for all those people.
 
#37
A lot of players felt like resuming the season at all was taking attention away from the fight for reform and equal treatment under the law for all people. We had a moment this summer when we were all stuck at home with no sports, no bars, no movie theaters and people were engaged and paying attention to the severity of the need for reform to an extent that I haven't seen in my lifetime. The 2020 NBA championship is not all that significant in that context. If the players feel like it's more important to take the focus off basketball again, I think that's their right and while there will be financial consequences for that decision, what we're dealing with on a national level is a matter of life and death for millions of US citizens. We can't shrug off our responsibility to get this right for all those people.
Are you saying these issues are so important that the only way to get people's attention on it is blackmail of removing all forms of entertainment? Because thats what it sounds like to me. I understand fighting for change, I'm just not sure what sort of pressure a bunch of athletes not doing their jobs puts on anybody to make real change. Awareness, sure, but awareness can be done in a lot of ways. I guess what I'm trying to say (and I really don't mean to offend) is that Im not able to appreciate how having entertainment takes away from anything, but maybe that's something specific to American culture that I might not be familiar with. It's one thing to say that their minds are not in the right place and they don't want to play for themselves, but another to say it's some sort of obligation to not play in order to fight for change. As you said, it's their right though.

Personally, I feel the players need the league. The league markets. The league creates teams. The challenge of team building given constraints. Structure. It raises the stakes and thus quality of play. If it were only about the players we would all be following the Drew League or something. And teams in Europe which don't have the same quality of players are still able to draw lots of fans. Stars come and go, and you could easily replace half the NBA players and most fans wouldn't really care/tell the difference. Heck, I don't even know half the players in the league any more.
 
#39
Are you saying these issues are so important that the only way to get people's attention on it is blackmail of removing all forms of entertainment? Because thats what it sounds like to me. I understand fighting for change, I'm just not sure what sort of pressure a bunch of athletes not doing their jobs puts on anybody to make real change. Awareness, sure, but awareness can be done in a lot of ways. I guess what I'm trying to say (and I really don't mean to offend) is that Im not able to appreciate how having entertainment takes away from anything, but maybe that's something specific to American culture that I might not be familiar with. It's one thing to say that their minds are not in the right place and they don't want to play for themselves, but another to say it's some sort of obligation to not play in order to fight for change. As you said, it's their right though.

Personally, I feel the players need the league. The league markets. The league creates teams. The challenge of team building given constraints. Structure. It raises the stakes and thus quality of play. If it were only about the players we would all be following the Drew League or something. And teams in Europe which don't have the same quality of players are still able to draw lots of fans. Stars come and go, and you could easily replace half the NBA players and most fans wouldn't really care/tell the difference. Heck, I don't even know half the players in the league any more.
The point of the protests in general is that people want their lives to be valued. That is what the players are fighting to bring attention to. If someone doesn't value the players as people and see them as just bodies to be traded and discarded, then yeah, the protests would seem pointless to that person. Shut up and dribble, right?

When players say, I'm not playing because things aren't sitting right with me, then everything stops. When the players got together an decided they would continue the season, then the season was back on again. The influence an individual athlete is a fact that some do not want to accept. Put Lebron, Giannas, KD and Kawhi in the Drew League and watch advertising and TV dollars follow. Of course the NBA and players both benefit from each other. It's just not as lopsided in favor of the league as some people think.

Awareness, sure, but awareness can be done in a lot of ways. I guess what I'm trying to say (and I really don't mean to offend) is that Im not able to appreciate how having entertainment takes away from anything, but maybe that's something specific to American culture that I might not be familiar with.
The best way to bring awareness to a something is to do something that can't be ignored.
 
#40
Are you saying these issues are so important that the only way to get people's attention on it is blackmail of removing all forms of entertainment? Because thats what it sounds like to me. I understand fighting for change, I'm just not sure what sort of pressure a bunch of athletes not doing their jobs puts on anybody to make real change. Awareness, sure, but awareness can be done in a lot of ways. I guess what I'm trying to say (and I really don't mean to offend) is that Im not able to appreciate how having entertainment takes away from anything, but maybe that's something specific to American culture that I might not be familiar with. It's one thing to say that their minds are not in the right place and they don't want to play for themselves, but another to say it's some sort of obligation to not play in order to fight for change. As you said, it's their right though.

Personally, I feel the players need the league. The league markets. The league creates teams. The challenge of team building given constraints. Structure. It raises the stakes and thus quality of play. If it were only about the players we would all be following the Drew League or something. And teams in Europe which don't have the same quality of players are still able to draw lots of fans. Stars come and go, and you could easily replace half the NBA players and most fans wouldn't really care/tell the difference. Heck, I don't even know half the players in the league any more.
Two things:

(1) They may be athletes and basketball may be their job but they are also human beings and they are allowed to be both athletes and human beings. In fact, the reason sports are compelling at all for me is that they are human beings. I want to follow their stories and share in the emotional highs and lows of their triumphs and defeats. I don't think refusing to play a game is a calculated move to deny us of entertainment, I think it's just that a lot of the issues which were stirred up over the summer (when NBA players were not allowed to play games and became active participants in many of the protests for no other reason than it felt like the right thing to do at the time) have been brought back to the surface and they're hurt and confused just like so many other people right now and trying to focus on winning a playoff game just doesn't feel like a priority for them anymore at this moment.

I don't know what happened in that meeting but I can tell you this, if I were in a position where I asked for time off from work because I was grieving and I was met with ultimatums and threats I would be pretty upset. Upset enough to contemplate quitting on the spot even if that's not a smart move for my future. I think there are a lot of heightened emotions for everybody which may settle down quickly or not so quickly and that doesn't bother me. It's got to be stressful enough volunteering for what is essentially a house arrest situation away from your family in order to try and wrap up a season during these extraordinary circumstances. As someone who has dealt with depression for most of my life I can't fault anyone for saying "I need to stop for a moment and assess this before continuing on". It's unreasonable to expect human beings to not feel things. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful to have live sports back. I've been watching baseball almost every day since the MLB season restarted. But if the players don't want to play and they have a good reason, more power to them. I respect their ability to make that choice more than I need to watch a game.

(2) Blackmail is a strong word for what is taking place here. I don't think it's accurate at all. The closure of bars, restaurants, concert venues, movie theaters, sporting events, etc happened for a very specific reason that we are all aware of. It just so happens that as an unintended consequence of that situation, our public consciousness has become focused on repeated incidents of police brutality this year in a way that has not been allowed to happen for quite a long time in our 24/7 news cycle plugged-in short attention span over-caffeinated modern society. Having entertainment does not take away from any of these issues, but it can be a distraction from them. The absence of distraction can create space to see things in a new light. When I go backpacking I'll spend an hour watching the sunset every night. Can I do that at home in LA? Sure. But I never do. I'm not assigning a negative value on that distraction, it's just a fact of life.

I think the issues being discussed are important enough to warrant stopping everything long enough to seriously talk about them and commit to significant changes. That's me though. I don't expect everyone to feel the same way and I don't think anyone is obligated to participate any further than they feel moved to. It's incredibly difficult to get anyone to pay attention to you long enough to even have a chance at changing their mind. This feels like an important moment in our history where people are actually paying attention en masse and there is an opportunity for changes to be made. That is what I don't want to see squandered. I'm not interested in moralizing activism though, not on this forum anyway. If people find it important enough to devote their time and energy to campaigning for change, sure. Follow your heart. All of us are making choices all the time with the subconscious goal of contributing toward the world we want to live in. If the world you want to live in feels very far away from the one you currently live in, there's bound to be some friction.
 
#41
Players would lose an estimated 35% of their salaries Next year if they didn’t play this out. That is big money
This is why I can’t take these guys seriously when they claim how much the movement means to them.

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. Put your money where your mouth is!

Until these players, namely LeBron James, do that — this remains a dog and pony show in my view. Nothing more. It’s accomplishing nothing. The games were only postponed, not cancelled. Nobody sacrificed anything to really send a message that this is important.

These BLM shirts they wear and messages they write on their shoes is just hot air. It’s the equivalent of a colored ribbon for a cause. It‘s a token symbol that says you care, but not necessarily that you‘re doing anything to really make an impact.

I don’t think I brought this up here, but I know I did on another forum. These guys have an opportunity to make a statement similar to the old 80’s movie, “Amazing Grace & Chuck”.

If these athletes, musicians and hollywood stars all banded together and refused to play or create art indefinitely until strides are made, they could actually help to forge change. Because when $ stops flowing in billion dollar industries, powerful people behind the scenes are affected. And they will pressure politicians to do something.

But doing the above takes sacrifice. Something these guys are still unwilling to commit to. They’d rather throw stones and bully on social media. And makes news by holding hands, kneeling, and sometimes postponing games. None of that is making any sort of sacrifice. And it’s not changing anything.

It’s a sad reality, but often the best way to make a point is to stop $$$ from flowing. People in entertainment actually have the ability to do that. By refusing to create their art. Athletes stop playing. Musicians stop creating music and performing. Actors stop making films. Most the of the super stars of their respective industries have more than enough $$$ already to retire if they so choose. Or at least enough to take a really long sabbatical.

But nobody seems to want to make that type of ‘Amazing Grace & Chuck’ sacrifice for what they believe in. They can postpone games all they want. The likes of Kenny Smith can walk off as many sets as they’d like. It‘s all show, no substance. There’s no follow through. Which makes me question how important it really is to them.

I’m mean, I realize it is important to them. Just not important enough to really disrupt a career or making money for. After all, they need more than $35M per year + endorsements. They need to pile up more career stats, awards, and titles. Can’t do that if you don’t play for a year or more, right?

They care when it’s convenient for them to care.

Muhammed Ali was once willing to give up everything for what he believed in. He made the ultimate sacrifice of his career and reputation. All these current day guys do is play twitter police and make token gestures. Almost like politicians. And like politicians, they mostly don’t really do anything impactful except cover their own you-know-what.

I’d like to also point out that social injustice and police brutality affects everyone. Not just one specific group. IMO this needs to be less about race and more about ensuring the right type of people are being hired and trained for what’s among the hardest, most stressful job out there. We don’t need power hungry people wielding badges and guns.

IMO, the vast majority of law enforcement are good people. Think about it. There are thousands and thousands of police interactions with civilians every single day in every city and town in America. It’s unlikely that we see even 1% of those interactions on the news. That’s an extremely small sample size to make judgements from or to label as ‘systemic’.

I think we all agree that we should see ZERO acts by police like those we’ve seen in recent years. It’s disgraceful. I think we also all agree that improvements can always be made in hiring and training practices. These celebs have the power to help make that happen. If they truly want to.

What I know won’t work is just showing anger about it. And just talking about it. And pointing fingers.

I’ll conclude with 2 final points.

First, I read someone say that it’s not these players/entertainers responsibility to make these sacrifices. And I agree, it’s not their responsibility.

Except, in this case, these entertainers have put themselves front and center with their actions and words. They seem to want credit for doing things to bring change w/o actually doing anything. Using their employer’s stage to kneel, all while on their dime and time and w/o consent, isn’t actually doing anything. It’s just creating the illusion that they’re doing something. Same goes for postponing games that will eventually be played.

Secondly, I read in one of the other threads that sacrifices don’t necessarily have to be made to enact change. With that I fully disagree. I believe history has shown that those that sacrifice the most seem to be the ones that make the biggest impact.

Like Muhammed Ali and many others like him, those wanting to change things need to put their morals and beliefs above all else. Especially above money and fame. Put everything on the line.

There’s no half way. You go all in, or don’t. As of now, these athletes and entertainers aren’t all in.
 
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#43
In the closed thread there were comments of the player's union never backing down. That the league needs them more than they need the league. That is true.
I disagree. To an extent.

Yes, the NBA needs it’s labor. But the labor is always interchangeable.

Players come and go. But the game, and league, continues on.

Jerry West is the league’s logo. Yet he hasn’t played since 1974. The league only grew stronger after he retired.

Michael Jordan is arguably the most famous, fan favorite player of all-time. He’s been retired for nearly 20 years. Yet the league continues on as popular as ever (until the protest debates began).

Magic Johnson. Larry Bird. Dr. J. Wilt. Kareem. Shaq. Duncan. Kobe. Iverson.

They’ve all come and gone. The current stars will fade away soon too. Yet the league will continue on, as it always has. Unless it’s all brought down by the controversy.

The league created the stage for these guys to shine. Not the other way around. And new players always take the place of the old. Wash, rinse, repeat.

No player or group of players are bigger than the game. Or the league.

We’ve seen how hard it is to start up new leagues. None of them last.

There’s something invaluable about established leagues like MLB, NFL, NHL, and NBA. Who have history going back, in some cases, over a hundred years.

You can’t just buy that. It has to be built. Over a long period of time. Which is precisely why the players need the league more than the league needs the current day star players.
 
#44
Me neither, but it would be different if the Kings were involved. Except I can't actually recall the last time that happened. :(
As much as we’d all love to see the KINGS in the postseason, how fitting would it have been for them to finally break the streak this postseason? With no home games. No fans. And potentially being cancelled.
 
#45
Two things:

(1) They may be athletes and basketball may be their job but they are also human beings and they are allowed to be both athletes and human beings. In fact, the reason sports are compelling at all for me is that they are human beings. I want to follow their stories and share in the emotional highs and lows of their triumphs and defeats. I don't think refusing to play a game is a calculated move to deny us of entertainment, I think it's just that a lot of the issues which were stirred up over the summer (when NBA players were not allowed to play games and became active participants in many of the protests for no other reason than it felt like the right thing to do at the time) have been brought back to the surface and they're hurt and confused just like so many other people right now and trying to focus on winning a playoff game just doesn't feel like a priority for them anymore at this moment.

I don't know what happened in that meeting but I can tell you this, if I were in a position where I asked for time off from work because I was grieving and I was met with ultimatums and threats I would be pretty upset. Upset enough to contemplate quitting on the spot even if that's not a smart move for my future. I think there are a lot of heightened emotions for everybody which may settle down quickly or not so quickly and that doesn't bother me. It's got to be stressful enough volunteering for what is essentially a house arrest situation away from your family in order to try and wrap up a season during these extraordinary circumstances. As someone who has dealt with depression for most of my life I can't fault anyone for saying "I need to stop for a moment and assess this before continuing on". It's unreasonable to expect human beings to not feel things. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful to have live sports back. I've been watching baseball almost every day since the MLB season restarted. But if the players don't want to play and they have a good reason, more power to them. I respect their ability to make that choice more than I need to watch a game.

(2) Blackmail is a strong word for what is taking place here. I don't think it's accurate at all. The closure of bars, restaurants, concert venues, movie theaters, sporting events, etc happened for a very specific reason that we are all aware of. It just so happens that as an unintended consequence of that situation, our public consciousness has become focused on repeated incidents of police brutality this year in a way that has not been allowed to happen for quite a long time in our 24/7 news cycle plugged-in short attention span over-caffeinated modern society. Having entertainment does not take away from any of these issues, but it can be a distraction from them. The absence of distraction can create space to see things in a new light. When I go backpacking I'll spend an hour watching the sunset every night. Can I do that at home in LA? Sure. But I never do. I'm not assigning a negative value on that distraction, it's just a fact of life.

I think the issues being discussed are important enough to warrant stopping everything long enough to seriously talk about them and commit to significant changes. That's me though. I don't expect everyone to feel the same way and I don't think anyone is obligated to participate any further than they feel moved to. It's incredibly difficult to get anyone to pay attention to you long enough to even have a chance at changing their mind. This feels like an important moment in our history where people are actually paying attention en masse and there is an opportunity for changes to be made. That is what I don't want to see squandered. I'm not interested in moralizing activism though, not on this forum anyway. If people find it important enough to devote their time and energy to campaigning for change, sure. Follow your heart. All of us are making choices all the time with the subconscious goal of contributing toward the world we want to live in. If the world you want to live in feels very far away from the one you currently live in, there's bound to be some friction.
Thanks for taking the time to respond and the graciousness in which you did. I don't disagree with your first para - that's what I meant by it's fine for them to not want to play in their personal capacities, akin to the analogy of asking for time off. I said as much in my post. What I take issue with is the notion (not raised by you, but it does exist and some players have alluded to as much) that they SHOULD stop playing because to not do so would be some kind of moral failing. That playing basketball collectively takes away attention from the matter. That is what I disagree with and cannot comprehend. As an international fan, it is the sport itself that has even created a linkage to my culture and interest to begin with; if anything, sport breaks barriers rather than taking away from it. It involves me in culture that I would otherwise would not engage with in a way that is not political at all.

Like I said, maybe it's just me, but that's how I feel. Glad to hear other people's views and thanks for being open about them.
 
#46
The point of the protests in general is that people want their lives to be valued. That is what the players are fighting to bring attention to. If someone doesn't value the players as people and see them as just bodies to be traded and discarded, then yeah, the protests would seem pointless to that person. Shut up and dribble, right?

When players say, I'm not playing because things aren't sitting right with me, then everything stops. When the players got together an decided they would continue the season, then the season was back on again. The influence an individual athlete is a fact that some do not want to accept. Put Lebron, Giannas, KD and Kawhi in the Drew League and watch advertising and TV dollars follow. Of course the NBA and players both benefit from each other. It's just not as lopsided in favor of the league as some people think.



The best way to bring awareness to a something is to do something that can't be ignored.
A bit chicken and egg though don't you think? If Giannis was not in the NBA, would you even know who he was? And like I said, that's really just the stars. The casual fan really doesn't know the average joe NBA player any more than some other D3 hooper despite one being a lot better than the other.
 
#47
This is why I can’t take these guys seriously when they claim how much the movement means to them.

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. Put your money where your mouth is!

Until these players, namely LeBron James, do that — this remains a dog and pony show in my view. Nothing more. It’s accomplishing nothing. The games were only postponed, not cancelled. Nobody sacrificed anything to really send a message that this is important.

These BLM shirts they wear and messages they write on their shoes is just hot air. It’s the equivalent of a colored ribbon for a cause. It‘s a token symbol that says you care, but not necessarily that you‘re doing anything to really make an impact.

I don’t think I brought this up here, but I know I did on another forum. These guys have an opportunity to make a statement similar to the old 80’s movie, “Amazing Grace & Chuck”.

If these athletes, musicians and hollywood stars all banded together and refused to play or create art indefinitely until strides are made, they could actually help to forge change. Because when $ stops flowing in billion dollar industries, powerful people behind the scenes are affected. And they will pressure politicians to do something.

But doing the above takes sacrifice. Something these guys are still unwilling to commit to. They’d rather throw stones and bully on social media. And makes news by holding hands, kneeling, and sometimes postponing games. None of that is making any sort of sacrifice. And it’s not changing anything.

It’s a sad reality, but often the best way to make a point is to stop $$$ from flowing. People in entertainment actually have the ability to do that. By refusing to create their art. Athletes stop playing. Musicians stop creating music and performing. Actors stop making films. Most the of the super stars of their respective industries have more than enough $$$ already to retire if they so choose. Or at least enough to take a really long sabbatical.

But nobody seems to want to make that type of ‘Amazing Grace & Chuck’ sacrifice for what they believe in. They can postpone games all they want. The likes of Kenny Smith can walk off as many sets as they’d like. It‘s all show, no substance. There’s no follow through. Which makes me question how important it really is to them.

I’m mean, I realize it is important to them. Just not important enough to really disrupt a career or making money for. After all, they need more than $35M per year + endorsements. They need to pile up more career stats, awards, and titles. Can’t do that if you don’t play for a year or more, right?

They care when it’s convenient for them to care.

Muhammed Ali was once willing to give up everything for what he believed in. He made the ultimate sacrifice of his career and reputation. All these current day guys do is play twitter police and make token gestures. Almost like politicians. And like politicians, they mostly don’t really do anything impactful except cover their own you-know-what.

I’d like to also point out that social injustice and police brutality affects everyone. Not just one specific group. IMO this needs to be less about race and more about ensuring the right type of people are being hired and trained for what’s among the hardest, most stressful job out there. We don’t need power hungry people wielding badges and guns.

IMO, the vast majority of law enforcement are good people. Think about it. There are thousands and thousands of police interactions with civilians every single day in every city and town in America. It’s unlikely that we see even 1% of those interactions on the news. That’s an extremely small sample size to make judgements from or to label as ‘systemic’.

I think we all agree that we should see ZERO acts by police like those we’ve seen in recent years. It’s disgraceful. I think we also all agree that improvements can always be made in hiring and training practices. These celebs have the power to help make that happen. If they truly want to.

What I know won’t work is just showing anger about it. And just talking about it. And pointing fingers.

I’ll conclude with 2 final points.

First, I read someone say that it’s not these players/entertainers responsibility to make these sacrifices. And I agree, it’s not their responsibility.

Except, in this case, these entertainers have put themselves front and center with their actions and words. They seem to want credit for doing things to bring change w/o actually doing anything. Using their employer’s stage to kneel, all while on their dime and time and w/o consent, isn’t actually doing anything. It’s just creating the illusion that they’re doing something. Same goes for postponing games that will eventually be played.

Secondly, I read in one of the other threads that sacrifices don’t necessarily have to be made to enact change. With that I fully disagree. I believe history has shown that those that sacrifice the most seem to be the ones that make the biggest impact.

Like Muhammed Ali and many others like him, those wanting to change things need to greatput their morals and beliefs above all else. Especially above money and fame. Put everything on the line.

There’s no half way. You go all in, or don’t. As of now, these athletes and entertainers aren’t all in.
This is a very well reasoned post. I will add a couple things. The great majority of law enforcement officers will NEVER fire their guns on duty their entire career outside of training. Considering the hundreds of thousand law enforcement officers that exist, that is still a large number. But at the same time with that many officers and a little over forty unarmed killngs a year, the narrative doesn't fit.
 
#48
Reuters has had a number of articles on this subject. They have covered the contracts, where the issues are more prevalent and where the courts are more likely to favor one side or the other. I won't discuss here because of subject matter but it is interesting reading.
 
#49
This is why I can’t take these guys seriously when they claim how much the movement means to them.

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. Put your money where your mouth is!

Until these players, namely LeBron James, do that — this remains a dog and pony show in my view. Nothing more. It’s accomplishing nothing. The games were only postponed, not cancelled. Nobody sacrificed anything to really send a message that this is important.

These BLM shirts they wear and messages they write on their shoes is just hot air. It’s the equivalent of a colored ribbon for a cause. It‘s a token symbol that says you care, but not necessarily that you‘re doing anything to really make an impact.

I don’t think I brought this up here, but I know I did on another forum. These guys have an opportunity to make a statement similar to the old 80’s movie, “Amazing Grace & Chuck”.

If these athletes, musicians and hollywood stars all banded together and refused to play or create art indefinitely until strides are made, they could actually help to forge change. Because when $ stops flowing in billion dollar industries, powerful people behind the scenes are affected. And they will pressure politicians to do something.

But doing the above takes sacrifice. Something these guys are still unwilling to commit to. They’d rather throw stones and bully on social media. And makes news by holding hands, kneeling, and sometimes postponing games. None of that is making any sort of sacrifice. And it’s not changing anything.

It’s a sad reality, but often the best way to make a point is to stop $$$ from flowing. People in entertainment actually have the ability to do that. By refusing to create their art. Athletes stop playing. Musicians stop creating music and performing. Actors stop making films. Most the of the super stars of their respective industries have more than enough $$$ already to retire if they so choose. Or at least enough to take a really long sabbatical.

But nobody seems to want to make that type of ‘Amazing Grace & Chuck’ sacrifice for what they believe in. They can postpone games all they want. The likes of Kenny Smith can walk off as many sets as they’d like. It‘s all show, no substance. There’s no follow through. Which makes me question how important it really is to them.

I’m mean, I realize it is important to them. Just not important enough to really disrupt a career or making money for. After all, they need more than $35M per year + endorsements. They need to pile up more career stats, awards, and titles. Can’t do that if you don’t play for a year or more, right?

They care when it’s convenient for them to care.

Muhammed Ali was once willing to give up everything for what he believed in. He made the ultimate sacrifice of his career and reputation. All these current day guys do is play twitter police and make token gestures. Almost like politicians. And like politicians, they mostly don’t really do anything impactful except cover their own you-know-what.

I’d like to also point out that social injustice and police brutality affects everyone. Not just one specific group. IMO this needs to be less about race and more about ensuring the right type of people are being hired and trained for what’s among the hardest, most stressful job out there. We don’t need power hungry people wielding badges and guns.

IMO, the vast majority of law enforcement are good people. Think about it. There are thousands and thousands of police interactions with civilians every single day in every city and town in America. It’s unlikely that we see even 1% of those interactions on the news. That’s an extremely small sample size to make judgements from or to label as ‘systemic’.

I think we all agree that we should see ZERO acts by police like those we’ve seen in recent years. It’s disgraceful. I think we also all agree that improvements can always be made in hiring and training practices. These celebs have the power to help make that happen. If they truly want to.

What I know won’t work is just showing anger about it. And just talking about it. And pointing fingers.

I’ll conclude with 2 final points.

First, I read someone say that it’s not these players/entertainers responsibility to make these sacrifices. And I agree, it’s not their responsibility.

Except, in this case, these entertainers have put themselves front and center with their actions and words. They seem to want credit for doing things to bring change w/o actually doing anything. Using their employer’s stage to kneel, all while on their dime and time and w/o consent, isn’t actually doing anything. It’s just creating the illusion that they’re doing something. Same goes for postponing games that will eventually be played.

Secondly, I read in one of the other threads that sacrifices don’t necessarily have to be made to enact change. With that I fully disagree. I believe history has shown that those that sacrifice the most seem to be the ones that make the biggest impact.

Like Muhammed Ali and many others like him, those wanting to change things need to put their morals and beliefs above all else. Especially above money and fame. Put everything on the line.

There’s no half way. You go all in, or don’t. As of now, these athletes and entertainers aren’t all in.
If we all agreed that there should be zero acts of police brutality, then the issue would be resolved. That's not even debatable.

Second, to ask a player to sacrifice his career or live in poverty to prove that he actually cares about an issue is a pretty high bar to set. An extremely unnecessary step if we all shared the same moral values. If i'm having a conversation at the water cooler with a coworker and I ask the person to quit their job to prove to ME that they mean what they say, then what I'm actually doing is telling the person i'm not going to see it your way and this conversation is over.
 
#50
If we all agreed that there should be zero acts of police brutality, then the issue would be resolved. That's not even debatable.

Second, to ask a player to sacrifice his career or live in poverty to prove that he actually cares about an issue is a pretty high bar to set. An extremely unnecessary step if we all shared the same moral values. If i'm having a conversation at the water cooler with a coworker and I ask the person to quit their job to prove to ME that they mean what they say, then what I'm actually doing is telling the person i'm not going to see it your way and this conversation is over.
I am not sure anybody supporting police brutality. How to deal with it when it does happen is a different story. There’s is a lot of ground between the extremes.

I respect what Milwaukee tried to do. Even if I don't think things are exactly as they are protrayed to be. But eff the Magic and eff the NBA. They took what could have been a powerful statement and made it into a joke. Giving up A game is not giving up on your livelihood or living in poverty. It is hitting something home and hitting it local. That was their state that the last incident happened in. But others wanted to get in and ruined the moment. The Bucks were willing to sacrifice something but no ....
 
#51
I am not sure anybody supporting police brutality. How to deal with it when it does happen is a different story. There’s is a lot of ground between the extremes.

I respect what Milwaukee tried to do. Even if I don't think things are exactly as they are protrayed to be. But eff the Magic and eff the NBA. They took what could have been a powerful statement and made it into a joke. Giving up A game is not giving up on your livelihood or living in poverty. It is hitting something home and hitting it local. That was their state that the last incident happened in. But others wanted to get in and ruined the moment. The Bucks were willing to sacrifice something but no ....
I guess I don’t agree that a statement’s effectiveness necessarily requires sacrifice (although certainly sacrifice can make a statement more effective). If it had just been the Bucks, would we have seen all the other sports stop the past couple days as well? I found it far more powerful that so many other athletes saw fit to follow suit, especially in sports such as baseball that have different demographics. Then again, I’m also not an undecided on this issue.
 
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#52
I guess I don’t agree that a statement’s effectiveness necessarily requires sacrifice (although certainly sacrifice can make a statement more effective). If it had just been the Bucks, would we have seen all the other sports stop the past couple days as well? I found it far more powerful that so many other athletes saw fit to follow suit, especially in sports such as baseball that have different demographics. Then again, I’m also not an undecided on this issue.
As far as undecided on this issue, neither am I. BUT, I do feel that some changes are needed. I was appalled with some of the stipulations included with some of the contracts but then the ones who approved said contracts need to be held accountable.

How the courts view qualified immunity needs to be addressed also. And even with me being for State's rights, I think there needs to be more uniformity in when and where it is applicable.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#53
I am not sure anybody supporting police brutality...
Meh. You're unlikely to find anybody brazen enough to actually say the sentence, "I support police brutality"... if you frame it like that. But I would state that framing the question like that is disingenuous, in the first place. A better way to frame the question, in a way that may (or may not) surprise you by the answers, would be, "Do you support 'law and order,' and do you accept the occasional excessive use of force by police, as a necessary cost of maintaining law and order?" Because the sort of people whom I would say support police brutality don't see it as supporting police brutality; they see it as supporting 'law and order.' The same way that many (if not all) of those same people see kneeling during the anthem as disrespect for the flag/troops, instead of what it actually is, a protest of police violence.
 
#54
This is why I can’t take these guys seriously when they claim how much the movement means to them.

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. Put your money where your mouth is!

Until these players, namely LeBron James, do that — this remains a dog and pony show in my view. Nothing more. It’s accomplishing nothing. The games were only postponed, not cancelled. Nobody sacrificed anything to really send a message that this is important.

These BLM shirts they wear and messages they write on their shoes is just hot air. It’s the equivalent of a colored ribbon for a cause. It‘s a token symbol that says you care, but not necessarily that you‘re doing anything to really make an impact.

I don’t think I brought this up here, but I know I did on another forum. These guys have an opportunity to make a statement similar to the old 80’s movie, “Amazing Grace & Chuck”.

If these athletes, musicians and hollywood stars all banded together and refused to play or create art indefinitely until strides are made, they could actually help to forge change. Because when $ stops flowing in billion dollar industries, powerful people behind the scenes are affected. And they will pressure politicians to do something.

But doing the above takes sacrifice. Something these guys are still unwilling to commit to. They’d rather throw stones and bully on social media. And makes news by holding hands, kneeling, and sometimes postponing games. None of that is making any sort of sacrifice. And it’s not changing anything.

It’s a sad reality, but often the best way to make a point is to stop $$$ from flowing. People in entertainment actually have the ability to do that. By refusing to create their art. Athletes stop playing. Musicians stop creating music and performing. Actors stop making films. Most the of the super stars of their respective industries have more than enough $$$ already to retire if they so choose. Or at least enough to take a really long sabbatical.

But nobody seems to want to make that type of ‘Amazing Grace & Chuck’ sacrifice for what they believe in. They can postpone games all they want. The likes of Kenny Smith can walk off as many sets as they’d like. It‘s all show, no substance. There’s no follow through. Which makes me question how important it really is to them.

I’m mean, I realize it is important to them. Just not important enough to really disrupt a career or making money for. After all, they need more than $35M per year + endorsements. They need to pile up more career stats, awards, and titles. Can’t do that if you don’t play for a year or more, right?

They care when it’s convenient for them to care.

Muhammed Ali was once willing to give up everything for what he believed in. He made the ultimate sacrifice of his career and reputation. All these current day guys do is play twitter police and make token gestures. Almost like politicians. And like politicians, they mostly don’t really do anything impactful except cover their own you-know-what.

I’d like to also point out that social injustice and police brutality affects everyone. Not just one specific group. IMO this needs to be less about race and more about ensuring the right type of people are being hired and trained for what’s among the hardest, most stressful job out there. We don’t need power hungry people wielding badges and guns.

IMO, the vast majority of law enforcement are good people. Think about it. There are thousands and thousands of police interactions with civilians every single day in every city and town in America. It’s unlikely that we see even 1% of those interactions on the news. That’s an extremely small sample size to make judgements from or to label as ‘systemic’.

I think we all agree that we should see ZERO acts by police like those we’ve seen in recent years. It’s disgraceful. I think we also all agree that improvements can always be made in hiring and training practices. These celebs have the power to help make that happen. If they truly want to.

What I know won’t work is just showing anger about it. And just talking about it. And pointing fingers.

I’ll conclude with 2 final points.

First, I read someone say that it’s not these players/entertainers responsibility to make these sacrifices. And I agree, it’s not their responsibility.

Except, in this case, these entertainers have put themselves front and center with their actions and words. They seem to want credit for doing things to bring change w/o actually doing anything. Using their employer’s stage to kneel, all while on their dime and time and w/o consent, isn’t actually doing anything. It’s just creating the illusion that they’re doing something. Same goes for postponing games that will eventually be played.

Secondly, I read in one of the other threads that sacrifices don’t necessarily have to be made to enact change. With that I fully disagree. I believe history has shown that those that sacrifice the most seem to be the ones that make the biggest impact.

Like Muhammed Ali and many others like him, those wanting to change things need to put their morals and beliefs above all else. Especially above money and fame. Put everything on the line.

There’s no half way. You go all in, or don’t. As of now, these athletes and entertainers aren’t all in.
Honk Kong, not a single person should take them seriously after that. Lebron basically told Morey to shut up and dribble
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#55
Honk Kong, not a single person should take them seriously after that. Lebron basically told Morey to shut up and dribble
Wrong. LeBron basically told Morey, "Don't say **** about a foreign country, when you're not here, in said country, to take the metaphorical (or maybe even literal, you don't know) bullets, and we are." Or, are we going to pretend like we don't remember how Morey waited to post that tweet until after he had gone home, but the players were still over there?
 
#56
Meh. You're unlikely to find anybody brazen enough to actually say the sentence, "I support police brutality"... if you frame it like that. But I would state that framing the question like that is disingenuous, in the first place. A better way to frame the question, in a way that may (or may not) surprise you by the answers, would be, "Do you support 'law and order,' and do you accept the occasional excessive use of force by police, as a necessary cost of maintaining law and order?" Because the sort of people whom I would say support police brutality don't see it as supporting police brutality; they see it as supporting 'law and order.' The same way that many (if not all) of those same people see kneeling during the anthem as disrespect for the flag/troops, instead of what it actually is, a protest of police violence.
You may want to look at the post I was responding to, "all agreed to zero acts of police brutality....."

I then went on to areas that I feel need to be looked at. I think you took my post out of context.

I support law enforcement...... to a point. That point is if you are going to enforce the law, follow the law. Set the example. Law enforcement doesn't do itself any favors by acting above the laws. Pet peeve, going down the highway and get passed like I was stopped without lights going......
 
#57
Meh. You're unlikely to find anybody brazen enough to actually say the sentence, "I support police brutality"... if you frame it like that. But I would state that framing the question like that is disingenuous, in the first place. A better way to frame the question, in a way that may (or may not) surprise you by the answers, would be, "Do you support 'law and order,' and do you accept the occasional excessive use of force by police, as a necessary cost of maintaining law and order?" Because the sort of people whom I would say support police brutality don't see it as supporting police brutality; they see it as supporting 'law and order.' The same way that many (if not all) of those same people see kneeling during the anthem as disrespect for the flag/troops, instead of what it actually is, a protest of police violence.
Why do you think everyone needs to see it the way those presenting it want you to and no other way? I can accept what and why something is done doesn't mean I have to approve of them doing it. In fact, when did I ever lose the right to be offended? To find something disrespectful even if I can accept that that is their choice AND right to do so.

My child is making choices that I don't approve of, me accepting those choices doesn't mean I approve of them.
 
#58
I find it hard to have a balanced convo without emotions getting the better or us (me, included). I have friends, family, and coworkers, who are all over the map with respect to these issues, the election, and the candidates. The one thing I will say is, there is nothing a convo over a beer, a hike, or a sweat session won't solve. And, I hope Lebron saves his bullets. Don't waste it on false demands or positions for branding purposes. Use some of those billions (which I know he will--especially in Ohio) and, more importantly, get your NBA homies and owners to walk the walk by enabling folks to vote.

Here's a good start: https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/...0200828-ywe4gy6ajbcpfoj6tcei57x3iq-story.html
 
#59
I am not sure anybody supporting police brutality. How to deal with it when it does happen is a different story. There’s is a lot of ground between the extremes.

I respect what Milwaukee tried to do. Even if I don't think things are exactly as they are protrayed to be. But eff the Magic and eff the NBA. They took what could have been a powerful statement and made it into a joke. Giving up A game is not giving up on your livelihood or living in poverty. It is hitting something home and hitting it local. That was their state that the last incident happened in. But others wanted to get in and ruined the moment. The Bucks were willing to sacrifice something but no ....
No, the vast majority are not for police brutality. But there is no one definition of police brutality. Qualified immunity allows police to do as they please. When no one ever sees consequences for actions taken by police, there is no baseline of where that police brutality line is. So it allows people to be able to justify violence as they see fit in order to stay consistent with their personal views.
 
#60

Comical when guys fall for lebrons bull crap
The media tried to paint him as some leader the past couple days I knew it was bull crap. He just wants to look “wok” and look good for his worshippers and some people actually buy it. Of course he was mad at the Bucks for not announcing there plans to boycott he wanted to do it first it was and always will be about “the king” to him