Rebuilding is painless...
- Thread starter VF21
- Start date
Henkel
Starter
Well said. Even if this team is worse off in the immediate future due to playing the younger talent it would be far more palatable because at least it could serve a purpose. Playing vets is pointless and everyone knows it except for Theus, which is unacceptable considering his opinion is the only one that matters for the time being.
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VF21 - great blog. I'm in 100% agreement.
Will that reality TV show of us rebuilding ever come to fruition? I hope so, because I'd really like to know what's going on in the background (Maloofs, coaching staff, players, etc.) that will explain all of these bizarre and seemingly obvious shortcomings, and why it appears nothing is being done to correct them.
Will that reality TV show of us rebuilding ever come to fruition? I hope so, because I'd really like to know what's going on in the background (Maloofs, coaching staff, players, etc.) that will explain all of these bizarre and seemingly obvious shortcomings, and why it appears nothing is being done to correct them.
Aenadin
Starter
i have a personal mantra in life
When you hit rock bottom, the only way to go is up...
losing sucks.. and watching opposing teams rack up and pull away is sometimes unbearable
i agree with the rotation why the heck is Mikki Smoores starting kids need experience and dont need to get the hook when they make mistakes let them play it out... you know you are no where near contention for now any ways
When you hit rock bottom, the only way to go is up...
losing sucks.. and watching opposing teams rack up and pull away is sometimes unbearable
i agree with the rotation why the heck is Mikki Smoores starting kids need experience and dont need to get the hook when they make mistakes let them play it out... you know you are no where near contention for now any ways
ZZE916
Bench
Unfortunately, this is NOT rock bottom. I may look that way after all the success earlier this decade, but it could be much, much worse (look at Kings teams from the late 1980s/early 1990s).
THe thing about Reggie, is that he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He's under the directive to WIN AND develop the youngins. That's having your cake and eating it too. Last time I checked, this isn't a roster with LeBron, Melo, Wade and Bosh on it as rookies. You have to once again PICK A DIRECTION. Try to win now still, OR develop the players you can't have both, and until the Maloofs pick a surefire direction the results we see are going to continue onward for a while.
Entity
Hall of Famer
Well if Reggie just sits the vets and lets the young guys play then the vets will resent the young guys and then you have problems and drama in the locker room. Now you have players like Brad and John who put up good enough numbers in the NBA to be starters. If you just bench those guys for a season or 2 as we did KT then they are hung out to dry. They don't get much pt therefore don't put up the stats therefore are not players that teams want to sign.
In order for Reggie to do what needs to be done. The GM has to step up and trade the players away. You can't just sit these guys then you will be none as a classless franchise whom once you get older and a they get a hot young rookie you may sit the bench your last 2 years with them.
Don't get me wrong I am ALL for playing Spencer, Jason, and Donte but, I do understand the predicament Reggie is in. He needs help from the front office in order to keep the peace with his team.
In order for Reggie to do what needs to be done. The GM has to step up and trade the players away. You can't just sit these guys then you will be none as a classless franchise whom once you get older and a they get a hot young rookie you may sit the bench your last 2 years with them.
Don't get me wrong I am ALL for playing Spencer, Jason, and Donte but, I do understand the predicament Reggie is in. He needs help from the front office in order to keep the peace with his team.
Actually, the way some of the vets have been playing, they are not mutually exclusive....
kingsnation
All-Star
Well, when your top 2 rookies (Spence & JT) have outplayed, outperformed and outhustled majority of your veteran players.. and they STILL can't find consistent playing time --- it implys that a direction has been chosen.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I agree with all the points. The ship is sinking either way, and anyone that looks at the upcoming schedule and still thinks the Kings are going to make the playoffs needs to have their head examined.
I posted in another thread, that the Kings are not a well coached team. Most of it stems from not having any experienced coaches on the staff, and that includes the head coach. Even in the military, when they appoint a young officer to a leadership roll, they always stick an experienced staff sargent with him.
If you watched Utah last night, you saw what a well coached team looks like.
I posted in another thread, that the Kings are not a well coached team. Most of it stems from not having any experienced coaches on the staff, and that includes the head coach. Even in the military, when they appoint a young officer to a leadership roll, they always stick an experienced staff sargent with him.
If you watched Utah last night, you saw what a well coached team looks like.
6th
Homer Fan Since 1985
I think that the Maloofs may be good business men, but when it comes to winning/losing, they are just overgrown spoiled/privileged boys. They do want to "have their cake and eat it too," as Smills said.
Until they can learn to separate their fandom from their business, I feel sorry for any coach that is brought in. That, however, does not excuse a coach from his own arrogance or incompetence.
Until they can learn to separate their fandom from their business, I feel sorry for any coach that is brought in. That, however, does not excuse a coach from his own arrogance or incompetence.
This is Petrie's fault.
I don't blame Theus for trying to win; it's unreasonable to ask the head coach not to play to win, or not to put his "best" players on the court (whether the best players, in the coach's opinion, are in fact the best players is a separate discussion). It is also not reasonable for the players on the court to not play to the best of their ability. It's the general manager's job to get rid of the "dead weight," so to speak. He has to trade Mikki Moore, John Salmons, Kenny Thomas and Brad Miller; then Theus doesn't have to worry about massaging egos or playing his "best" guys.
This is a matter that can easily be solved by getting rid of the guys standing between the kids and the floor; that isn't the coach's job.
I don't blame Theus for trying to win; it's unreasonable to ask the head coach not to play to win, or not to put his "best" players on the court (whether the best players, in the coach's opinion, are in fact the best players is a separate discussion). It is also not reasonable for the players on the court to not play to the best of their ability. It's the general manager's job to get rid of the "dead weight," so to speak. He has to trade Mikki Moore, John Salmons, Kenny Thomas and Brad Miller; then Theus doesn't have to worry about massaging egos or playing his "best" guys.
This is a matter that can easily be solved by getting rid of the guys standing between the kids and the floor; that isn't the coach's job.
I don't agree. I think the Maloofs are responding to the moment, excited when the team does good and totally depressed when they look like crap...
Joe and Gavin finally spoke the "rebuilding" word as though they realized what it entailed early this season. They've also be adamant about wanting the kids to play. I firmly believe they'd be satisfied this season with developing the youth, as long as the games are entertaining with heart and hustle.
I don't want them to separate their fandom from the business. If it becomes something to which they're not emotionally attached, we could easily end up with another Thomas situation and I, quite frankly, am too old to go through something like that again.
Based on what the media has reported, it's pretty clear the Maloofs aren't happy. We have owners who aren't happy and we have a coach who doesn't seem to care. Proof of this, at least for me, came with the recent lineups that had at least three of our kids playing out of position. You don't do that with newcomers to the league but Reggie didn't seem to mind. It's almost as though he's throwing it back in the Maloofs' face.
Henkel
Starter
You have a point when it comes to Miller and Salmons. Moore on the other hand has been a role player on average to bad teams when hes not playing in the nbdl. If Theus can't manage his locker room while sending super star Mikki Moore to the bench then he is to blame.
I'm not sure i buy your premise anyways. It seems to me Theus playing the vets has very little to do with massaging egos and more with trying to win. Although it seems that Bjax and Moore playing late into the 4th isn't winning to many games or placating anyone of importance.
6th
Homer Fan Since 1985
I sure didn't end of sounding like I was thinking.
By, "cake and eat it too," I was thinking more of wanting to play the youngsters/rebuild and still win. Those rarely go together. You have to be willing to lose games that are still fun and exciting (for many reasons) and not mind losing. While I agree that they hate the poorly played; no energy, and lack of interest type games, they don't like losing period. In a true rebuild (which I think they finally are on board with), you have to accept that there might be many many more losses than wins. That is the "business side" I was referring to.
By, "cake and eat it too," I was thinking more of wanting to play the youngsters/rebuild and still win. Those rarely go together. You have to be willing to lose games that are still fun and exciting (for many reasons) and not mind losing. While I agree that they hate the poorly played; no energy, and lack of interest type games, they don't like losing period. In a true rebuild (which I think they finally are on board with), you have to accept that there might be many many more losses than wins. That is the "business side" I was referring to.
Uh... it's a different aspect of the same objective, and if you re-read the post, you'll see I mentioned both, just in case it wasn't obvious (though it should be) to some people that massaging the egos of your veteran players goes hand-in-hand with trying to win. Why else would Theus play his "best" players (read: veterans), but for trying to win? What other reason would have have for playing them?
Showtime
Starter
That's a flawed argument for two reasons:
First of which is that some of the dead weight is a creation of circumstance. Brad Miller's deal was signed years ago when he was still putting up all star numbers. He's declined with age, but his contract hasn't. He's a very hard contract to move unless it's expiring. Asking Petrie just to move him because you want him to doesn't make it happen.
The second point is that every team has some dead weight, it's just a matter of how much it's costing the team. It's the coach's job to achieve his objective with the resources at hand. Just because he has a guy on the roster doesn't mean he has to play him. Nobody is forcing Reggie to play Miller heavy minutes. That's not Petrie's call.
Now, on the topic, I do feel that the objective has changed for the team. It's no longer about seeing how far this team can go. It's clear that because of the injuries and the rest of the conference, the Kings aren't going to gain ground and make the playoffs. The objective now should be to develop the youth. Some may say nobody wants to come to ARCO to see a team lose. That's true. But fans will pay to see the future of the team play and develop and lose than watch Brad Miller hand over games. The fans have proven they will show if they see heart and hustle, and that's exactly what Hawes, JT, and Donte will bring. The fans aren't dumb. They know if you play the future, they will want to see them. I would.
Reggie needs to start and play the young guys for 30+ minutes now and limit Miller and Moore to 10-20 minutes off the bench. Wins don't matter, but the future does.
I find myself nodding my head in agreement with just about everything you've said.
As far as nobody coming to Arco to see a team lose goes, I think a number of us will head to Arco to see the game, regardless of the outcome, if we know we're going to see energy, enthusiasm, youth, athleticism, excitement, etc. Give us a bang for our buck and we'll leave happy, even if we don't get the win.
The real frustration, at least for me, is when I travel two hours to attend a game and walk out feeling like I should have changed the channel. I don't want to see Brad and Mikki racking up major minutes. I don't want to see a rotation that includes chunks of time for Shelden Williams and Quincy Douby. I want to be entertained - and that means watching the future of the franchise develop in front of my eyes.
Udrih, Brown, Martin, Garcia, Greene, Thompson and Hawes are that future. Salmons is an asset but I don't think there's a place for him as the kids move forward.
I included Beno in that group because I do believe he's getting better as a point guard but he needs to be surrounded by players on the same page as he is, a cohesive group of young men who know each other's games as well as they know their own. We had that once upon a time - a team that could almost read each other's minds. Having seen it once, I know it can be done. I want to see them focusing on achieving that goal, because if they do it will all start to fall in place. Add a couple more pieces and we've once again got a team that is capable of taking our breath away on any given night against any opponent in the league, win or lose.
We have to commit to the rebuild, even if it means a couple of disgruntled veterans. They had their chance, their moments in the sun. They need to let the young legs do the running while they stand by ready to step in to give them a break or add a veteran presence to a particular situation. They do NOT need to be starting...
Oops.
I really didn't mean to make this into a dissertation on rebuilding.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
It should've always been that.
kingsnation
All-Star
While reading this, I couldn't help but think of my beloved SF Giants. A team this year who really sucked. But, committed to calling up and PLAYING the youth.
They traded guys like Ray Durham and even benched one of the best shortstops in history, Omar Vizquel.
And in the process, the season was exciting to watch, we developed lots of youngsters - we saw who would fit and who wouldn't. And, guess what? We found a Cy Young too....
Fans don't want to see old vets lose. That's the worst combo in sports. It provides no wins and no hope. Fans want to see wins or the future... NOT NEITHER.
HighTopKicks
Bench
I find myself nodding my head in agreement with just about everything you've said.
As far as nobody coming to Arco to see a team lose goes, I think a number of us will head to Arco to see the game, regardless of the outcome, if we know we're going to see energy, enthusiasm, youth, athleticism, excitement, etc. Give us a bang for our buck and we'll leave happy, even if we don't get the win.
The real frustration, at least for me, is when I travel two hours to attend a game and walk out feeling like I should have changed the channel. I don't want to see Brad and Mikki racking up major minutes. I don't want to see a rotation that includes chunks of time for Shelden Williams and Quincy Douby. I want to be entertained - and that means watching the future of the franchise develop in front of my eyes.
Udrih, Brown, Martin, Garcia, Greene, Thompson and Hawes are that future. Salmons is an asset but I don't think there's a place for him as the kids move forward.
I included Beno in that group because I do believe he's getting better as a point guard but he needs to be surrounded by players on the same page as he is, a cohesive group of young men who know each other's games as well as they know their own. We had that once upon a time - a team that could almost read each other's minds. Having seen it once, I know it can be done. I want to see them focusing on achieving that goal, because if they do it will all start to fall in place. Add a couple more pieces and we've once again got a team that is capable of taking our breath away on any given night against any opponent in the league, win or lose.
We have to commit to the rebuild, even if it means a couple of disgruntled veterans. They had their chance, their moments in the sun. They need to let the young legs do the running while they stand by ready to step in to give them a break or add a veteran presence to a particular situation. They do NOT need to be starting...
Oops.
I really didn't mean to make this into a dissertation on rebuilding.
I think you are a very special fan because I don't believe that the majority of fans would go to a game if they knew that their team has no chance of winning. I know that I won't. And, I really don't want to pay good money to see teams run up the score on us and play their scrubs for 2 quarters. And, I'm not so positive that all the players that you mentioned are going to be part of any future success that this team will have.
We're all very frustrated with this team right now. Let's hope that Theus is gotten as frustrated as we are.
I've got to give him props for trying some change. He did play JT at the 3, and Greene got time at the 3 & 4, and Salmons, BJax & Douby saw time at the 2, and Hawes started at the 5 & 4 mostly do to Millers suspension.
November was a beast. More games than anyother team, at the most one days rest between games, multiple back to backs, a lot of traveling, no time to practice, and multilple players missing games. If you wanted to make it impossible for a new coach to succeed, you really couldn't have scripted the start of the season any better than what happened to the Kings.
So, hopefully Theus has reached the end of his rope with the vets that's really all he has left to try. I don't want him embarassing anyone during a game by yanking them out after every mistake. But, he needs to ease Miller & Moore into a reserve position. Start by starting JT and give Mikki his 20min off the bench. Then eventually do the same for Miller. They obviously don't have what it takes to go up against the rest of the starters in the league anymore.
People who've been fans since the mid-90s or longer have a different attitude, because most of our games used to be like that. You went to see the Kings play the Bulls, because, hey, watching Michael Jordan is always memorable, plus you get to cheer for Our Kings, even if they only have a 0.5% chance of winning the game.
Most newer fans expect us to win, but watching games can be fun anyway. Try it some time, get a $10 seat and expect nothing more than getting to watch and support your team while they play some basketball. Think of it as a process and not a destination, and you just might have a good time.
Henkel
Starter
I'll agree that Theus clearly seems to believe that placating the veterans is ideal way of winning games, but this is subjective. Since Theus has decided to prescribe to this theory while going 5-13 it is reasonable to concluded he might consider changing his rotation even if his goal is simply to win rather then develop the younger talent.
If Theus is trying to win hes failing. If hes trying to develop the kids hes failing.
Petrie is not blameless but to simple state "This is Petrie's fault." is absurd. Theus controls the minutes and what ever justification he has for his rotation its failing on a number of levels, regardless of whether he believes its the best strategy.
Frankly its both of their faults.
First, Theus should realize that he isn't going to be the coach of this team long enough to win any championships. He isn't going to be judged by future GMs based on his win-loss record with the Kings, he's going to be judged on how he developed the young guys and shaped them into future winners. His long term career path hinges on him being able to recognize this and be a team player. That's why there are plenty of B and C level coaches that recycle themselves around the league every few years - they do the job that needs to be done for the team in its current state. Then there are the guys that flame out spectacularly and never get another job.
Its kind of like when you're a kid and you're playing a sport - doesn't matter which one - most of us wanted to be the guy with the ball every time and didn't see much value in making the pass, setting the block or getting the single in front of the guy that could hit the home run. Reggie is still a kid in his career and he's swinging for the fences when he's really the set up guy.
But you're right about Petrie - its on him, or the Maloofs, to communicate this to Reggie if he isn't getting it. If that's what they want and he isn't delivering it, then its on them to replace him. I don't see how you can blame Petrie for not trading some guys with bad contracts if there are no takers, but he definitely needs the blame for a completely pointless and counterproductive signing like Moore.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I agree. Theus is doing an impersonator of Hamlet? Go young or not? - that is the question. What should make it much easier for Theus is that the older guys haven't delivered. So, if you have older guys who haven't delivered and who aren't going to be here in a couple of years, isn't the decision an easy one? Don't you go play the young guys for most of the minutes? Hawes is better NOW than Miller. Play him. Thompson is better NOW than Miki. Play him. And play Thompson at the pf position, not a position he's not familiar with at the 3. That leaves Greene at the small forward until Garcia gets back. Then you can tell Beno and Brown that the starting job is up for grabs for the rest of the season. May the best man win.
