Rebounding Problem (Shareef is not the problem)

[nbrans]

So, not sure if you heard, but Shareef Abdur-Rahim doesn't have a great rebounding average. The Kings aren't a great rebounding team. Ergo Shareef Abdur-Rahim is the problem, right?

Well, when you look at the numbers, you notice something odd (all of these numbers are from the good people at 82games.com). As I mentioned in another post, when Shareef Abdur-Rahim is in the game, as a team the Kings pull down 49.5% of their rebounding chances. Not very good. But then you look at Kenny's number. Also 49.5%. (for reference, Bonzi's team rate is 50.2%.) So there isn't much of a difference when Kenny is in the game vs. when Shareef is in the game. How could this be, when Kenny is pulling down more rebounds than Shareef?

Some people might be thinking it's because Kenny and Shareef play together sometimes in a smallball lineup. Maybe Shareef is such a bad rebounder he pulls down Kenny's rebounding numbers. But the numbers don't seem to bear this out. Some of the best team rebounding untis are the ones where Kenny and Shareef play together.

So who's to blame for the Kings rebounding woes? Well, everyone, for starters. It's a team game, and no one player is going to guarantee that you're a good rebounding team. Ben Wallace is one of the best rebounders in the league, but the Pistons aren't that great of a rebounding team. Go figure. Players can have a positive effect on the rebounding rate without actually pulling down very many rebounds (i.e. Ron Artest and his 50.5% team rebounding rate), suggesting that boxing out is as important as grabbing rebounds. But if you're looking at performance relative to how the Kings performed as a group, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between Shareef and Kenny.

 

[Yoda]

Midget power forwards + slow footed center= bad rebounding team.

 

[MrBiggs]

Midget power forwards + slow footed center= bad rebounding team.

I take it you didn't read the whole post? Good post NBrans. The whole team needs to box out from the 5 on down. That all has to do with Adelman than anyone else.

 

[Kamehameha]

Midget power forwards + slow footed center= bad rebounding team.

Webber = 6'10", 245
Abdur-Rahim = 6'10", 245

Not a midget.

I don't think that Shareef's rebounding numbers this year are respective to his abilities. He seems less aggressive. It seems he's boxing out more than attacking the glass. Looking at 82games.com, you'll notice that Shareef may rebound less than Kenny Thomas, he also gives up fewer offensive rebounds.

Shareef is a career 8-10 rebound a night guy. I think something happened this year to him. Perhaps the coach said "box out", I don't know. But, something happened because you don't go from 10 a game to 6 a game.

 

[kingsfan916]

Err he meant kenny midget cause 6'7 and shareef slow footed

 

[MrBiggs]

Err he meant kenny midget cause 6'7 and shareef slow footed

Yeah because Brad Miller is so much faster than SAR.

 

[Rome]

good post. I hope some people on this forum who call Shareef a "bad rebounder" will read it.

 

[16to93]

Err he meant kenny midget cause 6'7 and shareef slow footed

No he didn't, he said midget power forwards and he said slow footed center.

 

[uolj]

I have a feeling that maybe you are reaching conclusions that aren't actually supported by the stats.

You should probably provide links to these stats to make it easier on those of us who like to look at those things in detail.

 

[Kamehameha]

I have a feeling that maybe you are reaching conclusions that aren't actually supported by the stats.

You should probably provide links to these stats to make it easier on those of us who like to look at those things in detail.

No, the rebounding rate and % is pretty much right there on the Player Stats page on 82games.

Unless he's interpreting the stat meaning incorrectly, which I don't believe he is, he's pretty much spot on.

Shareef is getting a bum rap on rebounding because he's not "attacking" the glass. He's boxing players out instead of grabbing a cheapie rebound.

People are getting impressed with wholesale numbers rather than TEAM numbers. You have to realize that rebounds, in and of themselves, aren't always a huge thing. Kenny is very active on the boards, but a lot of his rebounds are cheap rebounds. They were going to fall into one of our hands and he just jumped and grabbed it. That's great on a stat sheet but not a real deciding factor in winning.

 

[nbrans]

I have a feeling that maybe you are reaching conclusions that aren't actually supported by the stats.

You should probably provide links to these stats to make it easier on those of us who like to look at those things in detail.

Shareef's page: http://www.82games.com/0506/05SAC13D.HTM
Thomas' page: http://www.82games.com/0506/05SAC11D.HTM

Look at Offensive Rebounding, Defensive Rebounding and Total Rebounding

P.S. Another implication of these team rebounding stats is that when Bonzi is in the game the defensive rebounding is better, but not that much better than the team average (Bonzi: 70.5%, team: 70%), suggesting he might be benefitting from the "cheapies." Where Bonzi really helps the team is on the offensive rebounding end (Bonzi: 30%, team: 27%)

 

[keflanag]

Webber = 6'10", 245
Abdur-Rahim = 6'10", 245

Not a midget.

Webber also got at least 2-3 rebounds a game because he has MASSIVE hands. He has maybe the best hands of any power forward to play the game.

 

[Kev.in]

Webber = 6'10", 245
Abdur-Rahim = 6'10", 245

The Abdur-Rahim that plays on the Kings is an inch shorter and at least 10lbs less than the Abdur-Rahim you're talking about and Chris Webber hasn't been down at 245 in several years.

Here's reality-based comparison:
Webber 10.1rpg career
Abdur-Rahim 8.1rpg career

But, nbrans is right, Shareef isn't the problem. The Kings were getting killed on the boards last season, before Shareef and before Webber was traded. If there is a single player you can point to, Brad Miller is the one. He used to be an automatic 10 and a physical presense despite his lack of quickness and vertical leap but it is a teamwide issue. The Pacers were a pretty good rebounding team with Brad Miller in their starting lineup.

Just like Ron Artest has improved the defensive intensity, we lack a premiere rebounder that can set the example for everyone else on how to pursue a missed shot.

 

[Kamehameha]

Here's reality-based comparison:
Webber 10.1rpg career
Abdur-Rahim 8.1rpg career

Is that reality based?

Let's look at his numbers as a starter rather than bench years.

Webber is a better rebounder - there's no question. It's not even up for debate.

But, Shareef isn't a pee-poor rebounder. He's having a weird year and I'd have to assume there's a reason he's getting fewer rebounds this year than ANY other year.

 

[Kev.in]

Is that reality based?

Let's look at his numbers as a starter rather than bench years.

Well, he's been in the league 10 years and he's started 659 of his 741 career games. That's exactly 82 games as a reserve, against almost exactly 8 seasons worth of full games as a starter. So 8.1rpg is pretty much the "real" rebounding figure for Shareef.

His first few years in the legaue, he was good for about 7rpg. Then he peaked, starting at age 23, and was rebounding in the 8.5-10rpg range. Ever since he turned 27, his rebounding has fallen back down to the 6-7rpg range. That's the explanation, he's getting older and has played lots of minutes in his career.

 

[SacKings4Life21]

People people people... as easy as it mayu appear, size doesn't dictate rebounding. BEn wallace may be listed at 6'9 but he isnt any taller than 6'7. Elton band is a 10 board a game guy and he grabs ten a game... remember charles barckly? he was 65!!!! and he had 13 per game in the 80's early 90's. So obviously size helps but its heart that wins the rebounds

 

[Kamehameha]

His first few years in the legaue, he was good for about 7rpg. Then he peaked, starting at age 23, and was rebounding in the 8.5-10rpg range. Ever since he turned 27, his rebounding has fallen back down to the 6-7rpg range. That's the explanation, he's getting older and has played lots of minutes in his career.

Well, if I remember correctly - Shareef was a SF to begin his career. 7+RPG is pretty dang good.

Once he moved to PF, which I believe happened in his last year in Vancouver and through Atlanta - he was closer to 9.5, which is also decent. Not great, but decent.

I read on this board that Shareef hurt his back in Atlanta, and while I can't comment on it I will say that if my back was hurt it'd be tough to rebound. It does fit with his numbers in ATL.

 

[uolj]

Thanks for the links. The player stats pages rate Abdur-Rahim as a 19.5 in rebounding and Thomas as a 27.6.

Just because the team averages similar rebounding percentages when either are in the game doesn't mean that Abdur-Rahim is not a major part of the overall problem. If all you are trying to say is that Abdur-Rahim is not the only problem, well, then that should be obvious enough to not deserve its own thread.

Did you notice that the Pistons rebound better with Ben Wallace out of the game?

 

[Goo]

From what I can see during the games Reef rather boxing out people than getting the rebound. Good thing is usually other's PF would get the ball as well, bad thing is it is now up to other team members to get the rebound. He need to get more aggressive.

 

[Bricklayer]

While the general point that Reef is not ALL that is making us a bad rebounding team is of course correct -- especially after being moved to the bench he has fewer minutes to hurt us on the glass, and meanwhile Brad has put forth an effort nearly as bad. Nonetheless, these are the facts:

1) Shareef this year is a worse rebounder than noted super-softie Mo Taylor. He is rebounding at the same rate (actually below in recent weeks) as Vladamir Radmonovic. He is below Luke Walton.

2) Reef is 119th of 143 PFs in the league this year in rebs per 48. His 8.8 rebounds per 48 is obscene. Peja Stojakovic, remember him?, averages 8.3rebs/48. There is exactly one significant player below Reef on that PF list -- Mark Blount. Otherwise the only people he outrebounds are the Pat Garrity's of the world. He is barely in the Top 200 rebounders in the NBA (regardless of position).

3) Shareef's rebounding has been declining for years. It is one of the reasons his reputation is soft. This is the SIXTH straight year Reef's rebounding numbers have declined. At the rate he's going he'll be below Mike in a couple of years.

4) Bonzi Wells. Think about it. When Reef started, Bonzi was right there next to him. When Reef got hurt, Bonzi got hurt. When Reef came back off the bench, Bonzi returned a few weeks later. Meanwhile the reverse is true of KT. You want to know who/how has bailed out Reef's rebounding bacon all year? Look no further than Bonzi. (per48 of 11.5 rebs BTW).

 

[Goo]

Offensive Rebounding 29.1% 26.4% +2.7%
Defensive Rebounding 69.9% 71.2% -1.3%
Total Rebounding 49.5% 48.8% +0.7%

Reef doesn't make Kings a better rebounding team but it doesn't make it worst either.

 

[Yoda]

I take it you didn't read the whole post? Good post NBrans. The whole team needs to box out from the 5 on down. That all has to do with Adelman than anyone else.

I read the post. I just think our rebounding problems come from either a lack of athletism or height. Your cricitism was premature and unneeded.

 

[Bricklayer]

Here, BTW, is a more detailed look at why the Kings suck on the glass:

Kings Rebounders/ Per 48 Numbers / NBA Rank at Position

The good:
Bonzi Wells -- 11.5 per 48 -- 5th of 134 OGs 97th percentile (1st amongst qualified OGs)
Kenny Thomas -- 12.7 per 48 -- 33rd of 143 PFs 77th percentile

The ok:
Kevin Martin -- 6.5 per 48 -- 50th of 134 OGs 63rd percentile
Cisco Garcia -- 6.9 per 48 -- 47th of 98 SFs 52nd percntile
Ron Artest -- 6.2 per 48 -- 64th of 98 SFs 39th percentile (bordering on bad)

The bad:
Mike Bibby -- 3.7 per 48 -- 63rd of 81 PGs 24th percentile
Brad Miller -- 10.0 per 48 -- 84th of 109 Cs 23rd percentile
Shareef -- 8.8 per 48 -- 119th of 143 PFs 17th percentile

So, our starting PG gets outboarded by 76% of the guys he faces (3/4). Our starting center by 77%. Our former starting PF now 6th man PF by 83%. And even our nifty new SF by 61%.

 

[Bricklayer]

Offensive Rebounding 29.1% 26.4% +2.7%
Defensive Rebounding 69.9% 71.2% -1.3%
Total Rebounding 49.5% 48.8% +0.7%

Reef doesn't make Kings a better rebounding team but it doesn't make it worst either.

Just for amusement, go check the numbers on the rest of the starters to see what a lkoad of bunk those stats are. Basically they ALL make us better rebounders. Remarkable for a poor rebounding team no?

 

[Kamehameha]

W3) Shareef's rebounding has been declining for years. It is one of the reasons his reputation is soft. This is the SIXTH straight year Reef's rebounding numbers have declined. At the rate he's going he'll be below Mike in a couple of years.

That is a bit of a misnomer.

His rebounding has declined since moving from Atlanta to Portland and sitting the bench. Then playing SF in limited minutes the following year.

He's having a pee-poor year on the glass. No two ways about it.

But, I'm more inclined to think there is a reason behind it rather than believing a guy that when starting 3 years ago grabbed 9.3RPG mystically became a 7RPG guy. It's just not feasible or reasonable.

It makes a lot more sense that his rebounding numbers are down because of an external factor. What that factor is? I have no clue. I've read here that his back was hurt, which makes sense - but I've seen nothing else to corroborate that. Although I'm more apt to believe an ailing back than the mystical drop in rebounding.

 

[POST-UP]

Hey-I'm new so be gentle. It seems to me that if you are a team that looks to get down the floor quick after a miss then you sacrifice some on the boards when you only have one,maybe two, looking for the rebound. If you pack the middle and everyone is boxing out it takes you out of your run game. You need a monster in the middle to do both and as much as I like Brad,he's no monster.

 

[nbrans]

While the general point that Reef is not ALL that is making us a bad rebounding team is of course correct -- especially after being moved to the bench he has fewer minutes to hurt us on the glass, and meanwhile Brad has put forth an effort nearly as bad. Nonetheless, these are the facts:

1) Shareef this year is a worse rebounder than noted super-softie Mo Taylor. He is rebounding at the same rate (actually below in recent weeks) as Vladamir Radmonovic. He is below Luke Walton.

2) Reef is 119th of 143 PFs in the league this year in rebs per 48. His 8.8 rebounds per 48 is obscene. Peja Stojakovic, remember him?, averages 8.3rebs/48. There is exactly one significant player below Reef on that PF list -- Mark Blount. Otherwise the only people he outrebounds are the Pat Garrity's of the world. He is barely in the Top 200 rebounders in the NBA (regardless of position).

3) Shareef's rebounding has been declining for years. It is one of the reasons his reputation is soft. This is the SIXTH straight year Reef's rebounding numbers have declined. At the rate he's going he'll be below Mike in a couple of years.

4) Bonzi Wells. Think about it. When Reef started, Bonzi was right there next to him. When Reef got hurt, Bonzi got hurt. When Reef came back off the bench, Bonzi returned a few weeks later. Meanwhile the reverse is true of KT. You want to know who/how has bailed out Reef's rebounding bacon all year? Look no further than Bonzi. (per48 of 11.5 rebs BTW).

The point of my post is that for such a supposedly terrible rebounder, wouldn't you think Reef being on the floor would hurt the team rebounding more? Or, if you put your supposed super-rebounding-studs KT and Bonzi together, wouldn't you suppose that they would have a greater effect on the team rebounding and the team would be a better rebounding unit? But the numbers don't bear that out. KT and Bonzi together aren't better than Reef and Bonzi.

Here are the top five rebounding five man units on the Kings. The number in parentheses is defensive rebounding percentage plus offensive rebounding percentage.

1. Bibby/Martin/Wells/Abdur-Rahim/Miller (123%)
2. Martin/Wells/Artest/Abdur-Rahim/Miller (121%)
3. Bibby/Garcia/Artest/Thomas/Abdur-Rahim (110%)
4. Bibby/Garcia/Artest/Thomas/Miller (110%)
5. Bibby/Garcia/Wells/Abdur-Rahim/Miller (10%)

So basically, zero combinations of Wells and Thomas in the top five, but plenty of combinations of Wells and Abdur-Rahim. Is that just a coincidence?

 

[Bricklayer]

You are referring to the mythical back injury that so far as I know has never been reported by anyone except a former prolific poster/Reef homer on thos board? Let's assume its true...is it really relevant when it comes to assessing players? Any more relevant than Webb's knee being why he can't jump any longer (but as an aside, still manages to be a top 10 rebounder)? Guys get old, they develop chronic injuries, and it robs them until they finally retire. If Reef's got some chronic back thing that has been robbing him for years, then quite liekly what you see now is what you get. Would almost be better that it was merely a question of motivation.

Of course it would help my suspension of disbelief if Reef's back didn't look just fine every time it came time for him to do the thing he likes to do -- namely score.

 

[Kamehameha]

You are referring to the mythical back injury that so far as I know has never been reported by anyone except a former prolific poster/Reef homer on thos board? Let's assume its true...is it really relevant when it comes to assessing players? Any more relevant than Webb's knee being why he can't jump any longer (but as an aside, still manages to be a top 10 rebounder)? Guys get old, they develop chronic injuries, and it robs them until they finally retire. If Reef's got some chronic back thing that has been robbing him for years, then quite liekly what you see now is what you get. Would almost be better that it was merely a question of motivation.

Yes, I am referring to that poster and that claim. Although, there is some merit to his argument:
http://www.nba.com/hawks/news/AbdurRahim_Has_Minor_Lower_Ba-80897-33.html

Webber can't play defense any more like he used to nor is he the offensive player he once was. Back injuries are far more likely to impact your rebounding numbers than a knee injury.

I'm still confused about the whole "robbing him for years" argument. Are you saying that when he plays from the bench in Portland he should still grab 9RPG? Are you saying that starting as a SF in the league he should still grab 9RPG?

Sorry, pal, but 7RPG for a SF is pretty impressive, by any stretch. It probably would place him in the top 5-8 rebounders at that position. (granted, I'm guessing)

I'm not saying it is a back thing or not. I don't know why he's become a poor rebounder this year. What I do know is this is not the same Shareef I've seen play in this league when it comes to rebounding.

Because of this, I am more apt to believe there is an external reason for this rather than he simply doesn't remember how.

 

[yanon]

I think Brad deserves most of the blame for bad rebounding. He is the starting center and his rebounding is 24%tile among all centers. Usually, the starting powerforward and center do most of the rebounding for a team. The last time I check SAR is not starting.