Ranking the last 2 drafts
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Eh, you really think that if Tyreke or Cousins played in San Antonio, opposing teams would focus their game plan on stopping these two?...
Even in GS, there would be more attention given to Monta than Tyreke.
Of course Tyreke's skills require special attention from defenses, but the main reason they focus on him is because it's clear to everyone and their grandmother that our offense is focused around him, and his decision making is quite predictable at this point, making it easy to stop. Notice that opposing teams never try to deny him the ball, or force him to pass. They are comfortable with him dominating the offense because it's predictable. Sure, he can drive to the rim, and sometimes it will end with a breathtaking layup after beating three defenders, but more often than not it will end up with either a wild shot attempt, a turnover, or a bailout last-second shot attempt by Omri/Cisco/Donte/Beno after a late kickout.
EDIT: Woohoo 1000 posts!
Sptsjunkie
Starter
First, no Cousins would not be the focus, but he could duplicate Blair's success. I like Blair, but he's no Cousins. The list was a waste of time.
And what are you talking about with Evans? Opposing teams do try to deny him the ball. He's been doubled coming across half court many times. Teams load up the paint because they know you will get burned by Evans 1 on 1. So they let our league worst 3 point shooting beat them instead.
I don't know what you define as many times, but I don't see many teams try to prevent Tyreke from dribbling down the shotclock. Sure, they pack the pain, becuase they know he will eventually drive with very little time on the clock, hence the scenario I described in my previous post.
EDIT: Oh, and I agree that Cousins is much better than Blair, I just was disagreeing with the nature of your argument. No rookie will become the focus of the opposing team's defense when you have Duncan, Ginobilli, and Parker on your team.
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I think Evans, right now, is already better than Ginobili or Parker.
I don't even know how to respond to that...
Hmm... I doubt so. Maybe on the defensive end but certainly not on the offensive end. He certainly has the potential to be better than them, and maybe even the so-called skills right now, but it's a team game and I am certain that he is less versed on team play than the two of them. In other words he may be more talented, but not more effective in a team setting. And "better" is measured by effectiveness on the court if you ask me.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Talentwise Parker does not stand a chance. The two players are on different planes. Manu is always hard to gauge, because with him there is always the impression that he is better than the numbers he actually puts up. All depends on what you mean by "better". Was LeBron "better" than Rip Hamilton when he first came into the league? On some sort of team play/winner etc. scale you might say no. On a tealent scale you'd say hell yeah he was better than 2 Hamiltons.
Yeah like I said, he's probably (highly likely) more talented than them, but until that talent can translate into wins/ really carrying the team I wouldn't say that he's better than them. I agree it's a very subjective thing though, and like you said it really depends on what one qualifies as "better".
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
There's no wow just wow here. The Spurs don't win because they have HOF talents at the guard positions. They have very good occasional All Star talents at the guard positions, but they win with defense, depth and experience. Which one of these bobbsey twins is supposed to be so overwhelmingly talented that there is no comparison:
Manu 17.9pts (.427 .353 .869) 3.8reb 4.9ast 1.6stl 0.4blk 2.3TO
Parker 17.4pts (.525 .341 .787) 3.1reb 6.7ast 1.3stl 0.0blk 2.5TO
Fact is neither is a franchise guy, or even close. Manu has always shown the wider range of skills and at his peak gave the impression he might be a guy who could average 22ppg or so if needed, but he's never consistently dominated. He''s made 2 All Star games in 9 years. Parker has made 3 All Star games in 10 years, has only had one season where he was anything more than a #2 or #3 option, and makes for a fairly clear comparison as he basically has a similar offenive skillset to Tyreke -- to the hoop, shaky shot that he had to work into, not a big assistman -- in a smaller, weaker package that can't help on the glass or defensively. Neither of those players can remotely look down talentwise on a guy who could be a perennial All Star through his prime years.
Section 101
All-Star
Manu 21.79 PER #21 overall
Parker 20.88 PER #26 overall
Evans 14.87 PER #135 overall
Whether you like or dont like PER the numbers are so far apart they cant be ignored.
Funny how the same people who dismiss stats when it's pointed out that Curry's stats are similar or better to Tyreke's because "stats don't tell the whole story", are the people who pull out stats when it fits their argument.
Manu and Parker are the prime example of how to win multiple championships while fitting within a team frame. They are currently leading San Antonio, together with a 35-year-old Duncan whose numbers are way below his career numbers, to the best record in the NBA (or maybe they are just the scrubs behind Gary Neal?...). I don't see Manu or Parker aimlessly dribble down the clock while their teammates look on in frustration. I don't see them driving, jumping in the air, and then trying to figure out what to do with the ball. I don't see them playing at just one pace throughout an entire season. To say that Tyreke is better or even close to being as good as either of them is nothing short of laughable.
Tyreke may become an all star one day, but he has a LOT of learning and adapting to do before that happens, and the burden of proof is on him. All these comparisons to LeBron are just plain ridiculous, and to assume that because Parker and Manu were all stars "only" 2 and 3 times that Tyreke is somehow better than them when he is not even close to being at a level that will get him there for the first time is just as ridiculous.
Where do you get your number?
According to nba.com
Evans: 16.54 EFF
Ginobilli: 18.05 EFF
Parker: 18.77EFF
Considering that Evans has been playing hurt all season, I don't see that big of a difference.
Section 101
All-Star
More excuses. If he's hurt then dont play !!!
People around here had no problem bashing Martin the past 2 years who was hurt the entire time.
PER is a per-minute stat. The Efficiency rating at nba.com is not minute-based. If you look at EFF/48M, it's:
Parker - 27.63
Manu - 27.93
Evans - 20.99
Evans EFF/48M was 25.36 last year. And over the last 10 games it is 24.4. And he is still hurt. Basically a stones throw from Parker and Manu. I don't think that difference is significant enough to be a convincing justification.
Evans also dominates the ball more far more than any other player on his team. Parker and Manu share the ball with each other, with Duncan, and generally play a much more team-oriented game than the Kings do. The fact that despite that they still have significantly better numbers that Tyreke should tell you something.
And it's not a stone throw - even if you just take Evan's stats in the last 10 games, it's still the difference between being ranked #41 in the NBA in EFF/48M and being ranked #81. If you take the entire season into consideration, it's #41 (Manu), #44 (Parker), and #179 (Evans). Stone throw indeed...
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
You're being rediculous. Ever had a serious injury? Ever had an injury which wasn't bad enough to keep you from playing if you pushed through it? Ever had a minor nagging injury? As someone who's worked extensively in sports science and athletic training, your response is one of the most ignorant I have come across.
Do you not realize there are almost an infinite number of ways an injury can effect various players? You clearly have no background in participating in sports, or dealing with various injuries. You took yourself out of this conversation.
Section 101
All-Star
I have plantar faciitis right now. Yes I know how painful it can be.
My point is if he decides to play threw it then his stats are his stats. There is no stat adjusting for an injury. If his play is effected so much by being hurt then he shouldnt be on the floor.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You're right, stats don't tell the whole story. if they did, then Reke when healthy is already a better player than either of those second fiddles in San Antonio. He's certainly a far more dominat force -- teams gang up to stop Reke, build whole gameplans around his skills. Manu and Parker have always been aprt of what you prepare for, but until this season its always been Duncan who yo9u worry about first, the others second.
And obviously any attempt to use Reke's seaosn long PERs Effs or anything else is dishonest in the extreme given the huge and clear break between the Nov/Dec numbers and the numbers before and since. PER is a tool for human calculators anyway, rather than people who know the game. But even on human calcualtor terms Reke's PER is clearly calculated off of approximately 20pt 5reb 6ast on 45/30/75 shooting, which has been his numbers through his entire career except the injury plagued ones at the beginning of this year.
In any case, ROYs are almost all more talented than second tier guys who happen to be longterm veterans playing alongside other longterm veterans in strong systems. The veteran guys know how to be effective in their little boxes, and benefit immensely from the sytems they are in and the depth of skilled veteran players they play alongside. Few if any of them could survive and carry teams if removed fromt their comfort zones. You would have to be a fool to trade for Tony Parker and try to set him up as your franchise player. He's barely a Top 10 PG (Rose, Westbrook, Nash, Deron, CP3, Rondo all clearly better before we can even try to slot Tony in at #7-#10), let alone a Top 10 player.
And Tyreke BTW could be an All Star as soon as next year. If we make the expected changes this offseason, all it takes for him to be a serious candidate is his normal 20-5-5 numbers and us as a winning team. Ask Joe Johnson. Ask Brandon Roy. The Parker's and Manus of the world get in only when there aren't enough Tyrekes around in a given year winning games. And yes, before we get to the same tired stuff again, Tyrekes win a ton of games. There is in fact no reason at all why this current team could not have been beating the elite teams this month other than youth/inexperience.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You are just being sad. My continuing question is how much of it is conscious, and how much of it just being lost in a haze of blind mumbling spite. The gulf in these stats is too ridiculous to ignore, and absolutely determinative when trying to gauge this player's true talent:
09-10: 20.1pts (.458 .255 .748) 5.3reb 5.8ast 1.5stl 0.4blk 3.0TO
Nov: 17.0pts (.409 .120 .762) 4.9reb 5.5ast 1.7stl 0.5blk
Dec: 16.6pts (.367 .354 .739) 4.4reb 4.4ast 1.4stl 0.4blk
Jan: 19.3pts (.450 .313. 745) 4.8reb 6.3ast 2.5stl 0.7blk
Feb: 22.2pts (.444 .235 .836) 5.5reb 5.5ast 0.8stl 0.8blk
Now two sets of those numbers do not match at all, whiel the others have been remarkably consistent. Its transparent as all hell clinging to the aberrant numbers. I've told you before you can't win this. Tyreke isn't going to cooperate for you. When healthy he has nothing to do wiht the Nov/Dec numbers, and much as it makes you grind your teeth somehow to have a player on your own team putting up big numbers, they are going to be put up, have been put up, and are in the process of being put up again. There's no wya you can prevent it unless you want to throw some ice out on the floor in front of Reke while he's running down court, so you might as well get used to it and concerntrate on ways to denigrate a 20-5-5 45% shooter rather than continuing to try to use a couple of injury plagued months.
P.S. As an aside, Kevin Martin would have earne a lot more respect for having heart in these parts if he had in fact played through his injuries rather than sitting out half of every year. Should also be noted that his "healthy" percentagesthis year are actually somewhat below the allegedly injured ones of years past.
OK, we won't get into the old tired stuff, although I must say that I didn't bring the stats into the conversation.
I'll just say, without getting into stats, that you are blindly overlooking Tyreke's weaknesses as a player, and in the same breath hyping up his strengths as if he could win an NBA championship on his own, and as if there aren't dozens of players in the NBA that can get to the rim at will and draw double teams. If you really think that Tyreke on his current trajectory is on his way to becoming an improved version of LeBron (as in one that wins championships), then suit yourself. I am not going to waste any more time arguing about this, because I think this is beyond ridiculous.
I'd say what is beyond ridiculous is setting up a dichotomy through which Tyreke is either a run-of-the-mill NBA player with skills that dozens of players possess and only gets numbers by being a ball hog or he's an "improved version of LeBron".
Of course the reality is that Tyreke is a young, talented player who is physically dominant at his position, who has unspectacular athleticism but rare body control and instincts for attacking the rim. One who has undeniable potential as well as very apparent weaknesses, most notably his shooting and decision making.
Section 101
All-Star
He wanted to play through last years wrist injury and the team shut him down. Nothing he could do.
He's having his best year this this year.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
There is NO player who can win an NBA championship on his own. This is why the acquisition of Cousins, and his emergence is such a huge thing.
There are however clearly players who can fundamentally carry teams by their talents, can make bad teams decent, can make decent teams good, and when paired with another overwhelming talent can indeed win titles. Tyreke has always had the characteristics of this latter group of players. Physical dominance. Ability to contribute in every area of the game. A skill or talent that is unique, defining, and impossible to deal with 1 on 1.
And no I have never ignored the things that Reke needs to work on. What I have done is kept them in their proper perspective. A 20-5-5 player who has things he needs to work on is still a 20-5-5 player. When and if he works out his weaknesses he becomes an absolute monster. He might be a 24 5 and 7 player, he might be even more than that.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
He's putting up another season of prolific empty scoring stats while not doing anything but score as his team struggles again, yes.
And what I alluded to was this, he's shooting .435, .397 from 3pt land, and .883 from the line. Thnose are actually lower percentages than all but the last year+ with the Kings. Which is just to say his high end game was never unfairly judged by his injured numbers. Partially because he didn't have many injured numbers. His injured numbers were DNPs. But in any case, given the run of the place, playing for Adelman again, and healthy all year, his percentages are no better and in fact are somewhat worse than they were during his Sacto years. Nobody did him wrong in assessing what he coul be in a healthy season. He is what he has been.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
What exactly are you talking about? I swear you're making this all up as you go along.
Kevin Martin Stats
06-07
6.3- 13.3.4731.6-4.2.3816.0-7.1.8440.93.44.3 2.20.11.22.31.7 20.2
07-08
6.8-15.0. 4561.8-4.4.4028.2-9.5.8690.83.74.5 2.10.11.02.52.1 23.7
08-09
6.7-15.9. 4202.3-5.4.4159.0-10.3.8670.63.03.6 2.70.21.22.32.9 24.6
10-11
6.6-15.2. 4352.2-5.5.3977.5-8.5.8830.32.73.0 2.40.20.92.12.2 23.0
I didn't include last year due to injures, and switching teams. But even you say injuries don't matter, so I really should have used them.
His fg% has been higher multiple times. His 3pt% has been higher multpile times. His rebounding is pathetic, and by far a career low for him as a starter. PPG have twice before been higher, and the other year when he averaged 20ppg, his fg% was over 47%, which was a career high. He's scored more in past seasons, and done it more efficiently. Rebounding has dropped off, as well as steals. His overall defense in without a question worse. He gets lit up nightly.
So no, this isn't his best year. What is intersting however is he is healthier this year than he has been in years, yet has posted better all around numbers in multiple season prior to this one.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I do think he is more prolific this year than any previous year, but that's largely because he's gunning more. And his mintues are being limited because a little fo that goes a long way sometimes. He almost reminds me of a Ricky Peirce type characer this season. Insert for instant offense. Remove for more rounded play.
In any case his "real" percentages when healthy now do not point to any great injustice done him when trying to asses his talent in the past. Don't think anybody ever said he couldn't score. Was always a question would he do anything else, and apparently he is satisfied with not. He is what he is.
In any case his "real" percentages when healthy now do not point to any great injustice done him when trying to asses his talent in the past. Don't think anybody ever said he couldn't score. Was always a question would he do anything else, and apparently he is satisfied with not. He is what he is.
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Section 101
All-Star
PER by year starting in 06/07
20.12
21.51
19.05
17.28
22.16
Oh and he's doing it as the focus of the other teams defense. Evans pe last year was 18.28 and is 14.86 this year. So even in Martins injured years his per was the same as Evans rookie year.
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